One other point about Grima is his desire for Eowyn. He knows that she does not care for him and would never choose him willingly, which means that a large part of his strategy is targeted at her, at isolating her and driving her into such despair that she would surrender to him. It seems likely that this is what Saruman used to sway Grima in the first place.
The downside is he's an obviously villainous character whereas the books seem to describe him as more normal looking. Although the name gives the game away immediately, to be fair.
I vividly recall two specific moments with Grima that shows the complexity of Tolkien’s fictional universe and his outstanding personal values: one is when Theoden is “cured” by Gandalf and the king magnanimously offers Grima the chance to redeem himself and fight with him against the enemy, but Grima chooses to flee instead. This moment was destroyed in Peter Jackson’s trilogy, since it shows that Theoden tried to MURDER Grima instead, as a punishment, and who was only saved by Aragorn’s intervention. Thus, Jackson removed from Theoden much of his (good) character as a fair and merciful king. The second moment was when the War of the Ring had ended, and the travelers met with Saruman and Grima on the road. Again Grima was given the chance to repent his ill deeds, but he was too weak to actually do it. (Now I wonder whether he was given a third time to repent by the hobbits later on, just before murdering Saruman? I read the books over 20 years ago!) Nevertheless Tolkien always tried to tell us the readers that there is always a chance to repent and do good. Even after many ill deeds, God will forgive us if we truly repent and try our best to redeem ourselves. Unfortunately, the are many whose characters are too evil or too weak and are unable to change. But the most important aspect is that THEY chose that for themselves. The have the free will to decide. It was not forced upon them.
Yes. He was offered a third chance, as was Saruman. At seeing the hobbits offer him that chance and implore him to be free of his master, Saruman (who had just a moment ago attempted to murder Frodo with a concealed dagger) proceeded to insult and belittle him. An incensed and pitifully ashamed Wormtongue drew his own knife and cut the formerly great maia's throat. A hobbit archer felled him almost immediately afterwards, as he had drawn a weapon in Frodo's presence.
Now all we know is that if ARAGORN hadn't spared him, Helm's Deep wouldn't have been breached....and that Legolas shot him to save Saruman...but I love the cinematic turn of fate...Pippin wouldn't have been curious...wouldn't have gone to Gondor sooner etc etc but of course different from the epicness of the books including a more understandable Denethor and a more diplomatic meet with the Mouth of Sauron!
@@Count.Saruman thanks for pointing that out. I had the feeling that a third offer had been given indeed, just before he killed Saruman. I believe that we all have met one or more individuals who, despite given several chances, insisted on their bad trajectory, for a number of reasons.
I recently reread the books after over 20 years and will watch the films again for the first time since their cinema release. I noticed a lot of "change for change's sake" in The Hobbit films so it looks like I should be prepared for the same in the LoTR films. I guess they didn't trust Tolkien enough as a storyteller.
"Come down. Be free of him." As a kid I hated him But as an adult I have pity He was promised and seduced with power and showed the weakness we all have inside us. His actions were unforgivable but it could have all been so different. If Rohan had any form of espionage division he would have been a leading force and great asset. Too bad 🙁
I find it hard to have pity for someone who repeatedly allows themselves to be seduced by this power, but I’m not Frodo. He went down bad choice road, had chances to off-ramp but stayed on the road over and over.
@@MC-810 true but the same could b said about almost anyone; homeless person, drug addict, etc They did have choices along the way but as Gandalf once pity may rule the fate of men ;)
Grima reminds me of Gollum. Both had a lot of darkness inside them but probably would have never been heard from except for outside factors. In Gollum's case, he murdered his cousin to get the One Ring. Grima was readily corrupted by Saruman, who I suspect both used magic and poisons he supplied to Grima, to largely cripple Théoden.
Unexpected venture into Grima. Cool! Kudos for highlighting this character. I always considered him a wannabe soothsayer under Saruman's tutelage and as a magical vessel for Saruman's voice enchantments. Tolkien made that rather plain, and he was a key player in many plot devices. He is there at the beginning informing the Nazgul, and at the end. Kinda epic. :)
Perhaps Gríma came from a family in which its members would often be born or become weak and sickly, and because of this, they honed their verbal skills to be more persuasive, becoming beggars. Theoden King’s attention would be drawn to Gríma and he’d take in him and his ill family, whether out of pity or compassion, so they may live a better life in service of their king. If so, then perhaps we don’t really see Gríma’s family because they died early. Some of these would also explain why Gríma would be rather cold with his fellow Rohirrim.
"hi brad dourif? this is your agent, i found a new role for you!" "is it chucky?" "no! in this role, you play as a devious confidant where you whisper poisonous advice and corrupt them." "yeah, chucky, from child's play" "no, this is different! and just when they trust you, you stab em!" "got it, it's chucky."
To be fair Grima did one good thing: he killed Saruman. Just for once Grima was acting without thinking about how it would benefit him. It was an act of revenge but Grima chose to do something instead of slavishly obeying those above him.
Excellent character history. I believe we all knew/know of people like this. Even during the political climate in this country. Again excellent. Keep up the good work Yoystan!
I just realized that Grima and Peter Pettigrew from Harry Potter are both given certain names that associates with "worms." Wormtougue and Wormtail, am I right. 😄😂😂
Maybe your best character study yet. I never considered before: no doubt Worm betrayed Theodred to his death. Informing Saruman, & the orcs, of his scheduled location. I think Tolkien deliberately left any such more revealing info unstated. He wanted us to know the evil characters committed many more terrible acts, than what he revealed.
I genuinely feel pity for the man Grima became, and part of me wishes he had taken Theodans offer of possible redemption. I like to wonder if he had taken Theodans offer that he found his redemption at Hornburg, or even at Pelennor Fields defending the king he had hurt so much. But, evil is a lot easier to do and easier to stay in than good.
I wish that had been given more prominence in the movies. (Though Christopher Lee was inspired casting in that regard! I just wish it had been explored and emphasized more.)
I guess he was sent to Middle Earth to use it for good, and probably did until Sauron corrupted him. Gandalf needed one of the three rings to match that kind of power.
@@android584 Saruman the White, not of man colors, was a huge loss to Middle Earth, imagine if it was the voice of genuinely good Saruman Denethor encountered in the palantir for example. The fact Eru intervenes to remake and recreate Gandalf the White in Saruman's image. It's one of those things that's so obvious, yet ridiculously deep. Tolkien's magic. Ive said it before we need a high quality animated, chapter by chapter of the Lord of the Rings. I love Jackson's films but I still think, as far as telling Tolkien as is, a bit like Diskworld, shouldn't be limited to one offs, 2 partners etc. Not many fans will will argue with "No really it's Tolkien's book, just animated!"
I know of no such creature, but have not reread the Hobbit recently enough to be sure. However the Mountain trolls/Goblins rode wargs to this battle and in their pursuit of the dwarves after their escape, as did the orchs that attacked Theoden's cavalry en route to Helm's Deep. Note that from the translation I read of the books, I always understood the mountain trolls to be an independent species from orchs, bad creatures that would die from sunlight like the trolls from whom our heroes recovered Sting, two antique swords and some gold. These Goblins (as they are apparently called in English) only ventured outside caves and tunnels during night, and thus attacked Erebor from their northern mountain range only at night or wearing something that blocked the sun.
I think if Grima had been killed by Theoden or redeemed himself Saruman would've actually survived longer. Sauron wouldn't be aware that Saruman had turned on him and maybe he would've helped him retake Isengard or given him somewhere else to command or aided his taking of the Shire and its surrounding areas. Also, Frodo was going to let Saruman go in the Shire so Saruman would've survived that point without Grima there to kill him.
That Grima was allowed to leave makes Theoden weak. Reminds me of Edward the Confessor and Godwin, or the Merovingian kings and the maiordomus..pathetic
I find Grima so interesting, because the audience feels nothing but contempt for him, and yet Theoden, Gandalf, and Frodo are all willing to forgive him, even knowing all the terrible things he's done. Yet Grima never accepts this forgiveness, and each time he doesn't accept it, he falls deeper into miserable circumstances, culminating with his death, all brought on by himself. Pretty good lesson for all of us, I think. You may not believe that Christ is Lord, but you should at the very least forgive yourself for what you've done, and try to be better in the future, instead of letting your mistakes define you, and letting them consume you, the way Grima did.
It was as if the idea of breaking away from Saruman was inconceivable until a feeble Saruman humiliated him in front of a bunch of righteous Hobbits. Maybe Saruman's mind control wizardry was overpowering up to that point.
I feel like Grima was caught in a snare all his life - Saruman would only have tightened his grip had he not carried out his performance in the court of Rohan.
If you don't mind me saying, I feel Grima is a great stand in for everyone defending the rings of power. "That is a Lie! Amazon the Prime has always been our Friend and Ally!"
Man Mellon Perfect Timing (Kind of), My Family is watching Two Towers Extended Edition...Also a few days ago TT turned 58!!! But as I am saying, my Family had this to say about Gríma Wormtongue: My Eldest Brother asked, "They should have killed Gríma..." *This was after Theoden was healed...* and then my Dad, "No, the theme of this series is redemption and pity." Thank You, Mellon, for a great ECH for Gríma, after something I have to do for UNI this morning I can relax, *I have been finishing an assignment this past nearly 3 weeks* Until *Really Good Luck on that* First Age in 5 Minutes...And the ArdaCraft Livestream...Marion Baggins Out!!!!
I know this has nothing to do with the video but are you going to watch the sauron versus the lich King death battle? Even if you don't react to it I think you'll enjoy it
For a brief while, Grima played a deceitful and manipulative role towards Theoden not dissimilar to that of Sauron towards Ar-Pharazon well over three thousand years previously. Both situations ended in devastating inundation too.
Almost always advised against swift action, except when he urged to send Eomer's host of Rohirrim north of Edoras, away from the Isenford with such fervor. For had they not disobeyed Saruman's Uruks would have carried the prize to Isengard.
When you compare his story to for example Glorfindel´s story, you may see that both are children of Illuvatar that fought against maia. However Glorfindel died in the process. Grima successfully slayed a maia and almost walked away. Grima > Glorfindel
After listening to the video and reading through the comments, I realized how much Grima being offered forgiveness applies to the real world. Some of us may have a "Grima Wormtongue" in our own lives: a parent, sibling, grandparent, aunt, uncle, friend, etc. They have habits, mannerisms, and personalities that may not be desirable. When faced with an offer of help, forgiveness, etc., they will most likely dig in their heels for a while and refuse to change. Then, after some time, they might realize the people offering help/forgiveness is right and accept it, as Grima sort of did in the Shire. Sometimes, after some time, it becomes obvious the person doesn't want to be helped, which, at that point, we have to stop because we gave them so many chances and they just won't accept it. We might also be a "Grima Wormtongue" in someone else's life.
I like the idea that giving someone a chance to redeem themselves is preferable to executing all the opposition (eg. The allies hung a lot of people after WWII, there was even a film about it called "Pierrepoint").
Lord Yoysten, would you please make a “WHAT IF the Balrog of Moria had taken the Ring”? Many see that Balrog as some beast, not rational. But the Balrog almost broke Gandalf’s spell at the Chamber of Mazarbul. Do you think the Balrog would immediately take the Ring to Sauron? Or could he have plans of his own, having been a servant of Morgoth just like Sauron also was before. Could he expect to use the Ring to become a higher Maia, even trying to topple Sauron as Morgoth’s successor? (a “coup”?) (Maybe if the Balrog claimed the Ring for himself, he would make Caradhras into a giant volcano 😅, and with one huge explosion he would burn down Rivendell to the North, Lothlorien to the Southeast, Fangorn and maybe even Isengard to the South!)
@@istari0 That reminds me of an interesting quote by Mark Twain: "But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most, our one fellow and brother who most needed a friend yet had not a single one, the one sinner among us all who had the highest and clearest right to every Christian's daily and nightly prayers, for the plain and unassailable reason that his was the first and greatest need, he being among sinners the supremest?"
Hey, Men of the West I got a video for you to watch. Vice did a piece,"Real Life Hobbits of Italy" A dude built a whole Shire, and literally lives like a hobbit... LITERALLY!
One major difference with Grima’s demise between the books and Jackson trilogy: we get a definitive end to Grima’s character and his death is confirmed in the Scouring of the Shire, but in the Jackson trilogy, Legolas just shoots Grima for no reason. Was always confused by why Legolas did that. Grima posed no threat and had already stabbed Saruman. Not to mention, we have no idea what became of Grima: he is hit by an arrow and recoils in pain on top of Orthanc, but the camera cuts away and we never see Grima die on screen. If someone who never read the books saw that, they would wonder if Grima had survived. We have seen characters survive from being shot by an arrow before. Was a strange way for the character to go out in the films, and to this day, I do not understand what Legolas’ motive was. They wanted to spare Saruman for information, and Grima robbed them of that opportunity by killing his abusive master, so they shoot him for no reason? They could’ve captured Grima alive and interrogated him in place of Saruman. At least in the books, it makes sense why the hobbits shoot Grima down, he had murdered the Sackville Bagginses, slit his master’s throat, and ran wildly down the road. His behavior was unpredictable and even then Frodo tried to save him. But Legolas randomly shooting him in the films makes little sense. Side note: In the films: Theoden trying to murder Grima in Two Towers, and then offering Grima a second chance in Return of the King is confusing continuity for Film Theoden. The guy can’t make up his mind about Grima in the films xd
And let's be honest. If a human could kill a maiar, even a fallen one by cutting their throat, then Sauruman wouldn't have made it to the 2nd age. The Wormtongue storyline was one of the weakest Tolkein ever wrote
Normally no, since a body is like a suit of clothes to them - comfortable perhaps but not necessary. But the Istari were embodied and made vulnerable to death as part of their mission.
Brother, I was a bit (actually more than) ticked off when I watched the Harry Potter series for the first time this year with my wife (who is a big fan of the Potter books) when I found out that the “dark lord” of that series’ name is: “Wormtail”!! I thought: RIP-OFF?! IMHO, it’s like Hunger Games ripping off Battle Royale.
A weakness of Tolkein was how he treated evil characters. Wormtongue would have been killed by the Nazgul, Theodin, Gandalf, Saruman and Treebeard. None of them would have allowed him to live. He lets dar too many characters escape realistic fates just so they can fuck things up later. Is weak writing and he should have done better
