@@aasimar73 Fired? He wasn't even hired. He was on a trial period, and has previously said that his contract wasn't renewed due to his slow work-style. Hiding sex in the panel is a nice homage, but it wasn't even edgey when Disney animators did it in the Lion King.
@@cultfilmvideo6936 probably he was not liked and used as an excuse to do it. Morrison could have done it too but was Grant Morrison so they couldn't fire him
@@cultfilmvideo6936Certainly. When they came out and read anything like this. By I preferred his JLA much more. For me they are tied to Hickman's Avengers
I bought the first 6 issues and ended up dropping it. I just found it self important and the characters un-recognizable. He also declawed Emma Frost and turned her from a shrewd business woman who stood up for the weak. To a home wrecker who chases after married men. Morison did the exact same thing with Talia Head in Batman.
x-men really needs a solid run that lasts at least for five years with a fewer amount of staff changes as possible. sometimes people just drift away from comics because reasons. the trick is to not piss those readers off when they come back to their favourite comic, especially when they grow up and return with wages to spend instead of lunch money.
anyone who thought Quitely would be at the end was fooling themselves. Kordey was amazing in style but had to finish his books by the day before, so they looked sloppy. I would be interested to see how this compares to Morrison's Batman and Doom Patrol, a lot of world building there too!
Yes. I actually talked to Kordej about what happened after his whole Marvel gig blew up. They pretty much gave him no time, and if you compare it what he has done in France since then, he is an amazing artist who deserved better. But then again, we _are_ talking about the US comics industry. It's a vampire, sucking creativity dry
@Ryan Wilson not a chance in hell. EVS's only problem with Perch is that he didn't push back on someone's claim that he was a white supremacist. I understand Perch's reasoning for not derailing a conversation with someone that refuses to listen to reason. I also understand EVS's butt-hurt over the situation. I'm not sure what I would do in either of their positions. In Thinking Critical's case, all Wes did was tell somebody that unsubbed due to the platforming of EVS, that he was sorry to hear that and he hopes they change their mind in the future. That is *literally* (f u Perch 😉) the response Comicsgate claims to promote. Wes was just being cordial to a fan and longtime subscriber.
@Ryan Wilson Also, I wasn't trying to start drama. I actually thought it was bad etiquette of EVS to mention it in a livestream instead of reaching out.
I remember buying this book monthly back in the day. I started with #121 and dropped by #136, hunting back issues in between. I always looked forward to Quietly's art but was getting it sparingly.
I always thought it should have been switched. Cause Ultimate X-Men was supposed to be a Year One book for the X-Men like Ultimate Spider-Man had been for Spidey but Millar(as entertaining as it was) didn't do that, he just wanted to do his ultimate take on all the classic villains and basically threw everything but the kitchen sink. He should have done the main X-Men book and Grant could have recreated the X-Men for a modern audience on Ultimate X-Men. Think about it, a virgin World where Grant could have come up with anything he wants.
I love this run. Perch, don't you see any other creator/creative team bringing the same enthusiasm to a X-Men book? I thought Hickman would be that guy, but not being a stand alone book might have hurt that chance.
Very good point, and I agree w/ you. I also thought Hickman would set the mutants ablaze in the best way, but his slow-burn writing style which forces you to read 10 books before something significant happens is a hindrance to forward movement.
I think I’m the only person who liked Igor Kordey. He also did a nice run on Cable, and I even bought a Dark Horse Tarzan he drew on the strength of his art. There was some kind of controversy about his “disappearance” IIRC. He just sort of vanished and I can’t remember what exactly happened to him. And I really liked Xorn, Quentin Quire and Fantomex. The big reveal on Xorn blew my mind and I liked seeing Quire in the recent West Coast Avengers.
First and only X-Men book I ever read. If I remember correctly, New X-Men 114 came out the same month as the first issue of Peter Milligan and Mike Allred's fantastic X-Force comic. I still remember my LCS owner telling me that "the Vertigo guys are doing Marvel now." Fun times, and great comics. P.S. It's "QUITELY" not "QUIETLY" :)
@@ComicsPerch The name is a pseudonym, based on an inversion of "quite frankly". His real name is Vince Deighan. But however you or I pronounce it, his artwork is fantastic - wish there was more of it in this run!
You should do a Williamson flash run. I'd think it'd be interesting to an analysis one of the few rebirth successes that ran for 100 issues. Maybe the one
Great follow up to the retrospective! Let me ask you perch..when you say they "market" creative teams and writers and artists...where exactly are you looking? lol, I mean when I think 'they went heavy in marketing" I think actual ads and news, coverage etc... the only 'marketing' I see is a few random pages in the companies comics. So..if you're reading Xmen, and you happen to be reading Spiderman you may see an ad for a new xmen writer in that spidey comic..but is that really marketing? is that really advertising? the same readers are already into comics if they're reading the spiderman book... Is advertising to your own base really advertising? And how much budget does that even require? It's your book, they can put as many ads for their own stuff at no cost...they own the books anyway...and again, how effective is this? It's not getting out to any at all who isn't already reading comics... the marketing of comic books baffles and fascinates me..
Killer job!! I liked that you showed an even bigger picture of the New X-men sales by comparing it to the industry as a whole. After watching this, I wonder....was it the Stunts and endless Crossover Events that started a downward sales slide for the regular series? Slowly eating away at the fanbase. Creating a need to have everything but not being able to afford it, which leads to burnout or just giving up and walking away altogether.
Regardless of what the "critics" said I really enjoyed Morrison's New X-Men and consider it one of my top 5 X-Men runs...not because it was great storytelling (I had issues with the Magneto/Xorn reveal, and I vehemently loathe Quentin Quire to this day, HCT while visually stunning made no sense) but mainly because by that time I was utterly bored with X-Men in general up to that point. Grant's stories, for all their faults, were utterly new and engaging. And his characterisations were on point. As for the art/artists...I remember there were many hating on Quitely's art the time. I loved it. And Kordey's as well, very much. EVS was the weakest of the bunch, imo.
Perch, what is your opinion on "bait and switch" comics where a new comic is announced with a lot of fanfare and we are promised this or that superstar artist will be the regular artist on the book, only to have them off the book by issue three?
I can confirm that I stopped buying this book because of Kordey. It doesn't manifest in the sales because most people stopped buying the book AFTER they experienced Kordey's horrendous 'art'. I had no problem with EVS, in fact I believe he did a better job than Quietly, but that's up to debate. Btw, EVS has some old videos discussing his run on the book. I was extremely surprised that Morrison was deeply disappointed with his art, but (the e-mail scandal) had no comment on Kordey?! 🤨 Whatever, l left the book around issue 20 (134) because the covers were misleading and you really had no idea what to expect. I was 13-14 at the time, so really didn't know these artist by name back then, the only thing I was aware of is that the book keeps switching between decent/good (Quietly/EVS) and horrendous (Kordey) art. It was frustrating. I also had no idea that Silvestri was on New X-Men, l can only remember him doing 1 issue of 'Messiah Complex' few years later.
It might be hard to demonstrate that Igor damaged sales, but he definitely damaged the look of the book. If EVS is to be believed, Igor wasn’t being rushed, Igor was taking on a great many more projects than he could handle and just didn’t seem to care what the end result was. That’s how EVS tells it.
@topher nolastname yeah, I’m here to talk New XMen EVS. His work on New XMen is really good. Igor’s isn’t. If EVS’ New XMen books where late, I don’t care. I read the whole thing in trade. And in trade Igor’s work remains lacking. You’re free to believe or disbelieve who you like, I don’t have much time for drama.
Morrison was brought on the title (as most creators were at Marvel in 2001 when Quesada took the reins) to give the franchise a good kick up the ass as he had done a few years prior at DC with JLA. Instead he brought a jarring reinterpretation of what was already mainstream comics' most popular franchise. The other X-Men titles (apart from X-Force, which is its own sidebar) like Uncanny X-Men and X-Treme X-Men remained more in line with the X-Men titles of the previous decade, but New X-Men felt like something else entirely and polarised the fanbase. The same thing is happening now with the entire line under Hickman and with twenty years' hindsight I'm fine with Morrison's run but I don't think I'll ever say the same about Hickman's Marvel work in general.
Since I probably don't have the patience for the 2-hour retrospective, I'll just say it here: whatever the sales, this run ended the X-Men for me. I've never bought an X-book that happens after this. I just didn't care. The changes Grant made, and the way he made him, rubbed me the wrong way on a fundamental level.
What a great run, i would love to see the trades and omnibus sales numbers on this title it definitely reads better in collected format. I seriously think the monthly single issue book format is terrible and needs to evolve.
Sorry I keep asking you this but can you please do a video that explains why acclaimed series like East of West or Black Hammer don’t sell as much as they deserve?
I'd say New Avengers could give this a run for its money. It stayed above 100K for 45 issues beat tons of event books, and was pretty much always in the top 5 or 10. And it was an Avengers book, X-Men usually sells higher. Plus, it wasnt just events cuz it didn't tie into House of M at all and for the first 20 issues, there were 0 events and it sold at insane heights. Even with the events, it just continued its trend.
There was a lot of hype linked to Quitely cause of his Authority run with Mark Millar. It was basically "The Boys" of the time. The change in artwork definitely affected the sales on New X-Men. I myself couldn't stand it after a while. You sign on for Quitely, you don't want others. EVS mentioned that when he was drawing the book, he read an e-mail Morrison sent to Marvel and Grant was pretty pissed by the subpar replacements. EVS is an amazing artist but I remember EVS' drawings the book at the time and I hated it as a fan. It just didn't fit. Now as far as Korday's sales being not that bad, it has more to do with people sticking around hoping that Frank would return. Cause believe me we hated Korday's stuff. But since then I have seen other things he did and I really like his work elsewhere. Again, it's another that didn't fit the X-Men. Jimenez is another good artist that didn't fit(esp. with Grant's run, maybe he would be a good X-Men artist in other situations).
The X-Men were creatively lost for years before Grant Morrison came aboard, but that had become clearly noticeable when Chris Claremont returned and his ideas were terrible, which was frustrating to fans. But it was Grant Morrison’s version of the X-Men that destroyed the brand in my opinion. The characters no longer acted or behaved the way they used to be. He had opened the way to the amoral X-Men that became the norm after that. I remember that in the very first issue Cyclops executed a captured mutant who was dying, to “lessen his pain.” I remember vividly thinking: “This is not Cyclops. These are not the X-Men. I’m out of here.” And I never returned. And I believe I was right, because a few years later Cyclops a villain, and the X-Men as well, although Marvel SJW creators, under their twisted perspective, they say these characters as heroes. Now we have X-Men with plants and acting like the worst villains I’ve seen. Thanks, Grant Morrison.
The issue is that while the concept of mutants and what they mean to be to the World seem to suggest that X-Men should be a concept book with big ideas, it's actually not. X-Men has always been a balls and guts title meaning it's about human beings fighting to survive and it's more about the characters and their personal interactions. Just as Morrison did, Hickman with his current run is making the same mistakes with his big ideas and concepts. X-Men are not about that. X-Men themselves are already a high concept, you don't need to add more to it cause then you lose the narrative and it becomes some abstract pointless bullshit.
x mens the oldest book i collected. i couldnt stand quitely's art and was delighted when he fell off the book, and while the xmen NEEDED shaking up morrision fked it up soo much whedons run basically just ignored it all. i'll give marvel the credit of genuinly trying something new, but thats about it.
Grant Morrison thinks up (or FINDS) lines of dialog he likes , and then builds the rest of what the characters say around that. I've caught the steals in his work often. The end result: super choppy, often nonsensical text and characters that are not organic enough to be called "cardboard", they're truely plastic- or lucite.
I don't get it, if the change of the artist damage the sales of the book why they did that? And why promote something to change it up and damage the product? dont get it
This was the last time I was really into the X-Men! Chris Claremont, Salvador Larroca, and Igor Kordey rocked on X-Treme X-Men Joe Casey and Sean Philips were every bit as original on Uncanny X-Men Unfortunately everything else that came since (including Jonathan Hickman's current run) have been underwhelming at best, downright boring at worst
