Greensleeves: Myths and History 

I thought I was just a weirdo.. 🤣 I remember being like, five and having a little electric piano, an it had pre loaded songs and I just loved the music Never heard these lyrics tho lol

☘️Saint Paddy had Greensleeves 🍀👍🥳 My 7th Grd music class 1st song taught approaching Christmas 1966. Thanks You anapreciated music teach Mr. Todd, Eastlake J High. I remember the movie "How the West was won" Theme same🎼 Depictions of Saint Patrick in green majestic robe on 3/17/--

Saint Paddy had Greensleeves? What do you mean?

Beautiful. Although from Reneicansse, accords to a modern time. I listened in various arrangements. Certainly that Olivia Newton John had sung marvelous, but text is for a man in love. So, love most bariton to sings. Obliged music literatura, translated on Serbian, for 4th class primary schools

OMG I thought it was just me It pulls me in in like a strange feeling I get in my soul when I hear this song I can't explain it it just stops me dead in my tracks and captivates me it's the only thing on this earth that has the power to do this to me.

Lynne, it's so pleasing to know my articles and video have been used to such good effect. Thank you so much for posting and letting me know.

James, if you want the whole dance, you'll find it here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-dMHkkYWrA1s.html

@@IPMusic thanx

Well, thank you!

The troubadours were active from the late 11th century to the end of the 13th century and wrote in Occitan. There is no evidence for the musical form of Greensleeves (passamezzo antico and romanesca) until the 16th century and no evidence of the song itself until 1580, and it is in English. Sure, Greensleeves is on a well-worn theme beloved of the troubadours - I am in love with her, she isn't interested, I'm heart-broken - but it clearly isn't from the troubadour era nor is it a troubadour song.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Martin. You're very welcome.

Thank you, Damian. In the description there are links to three articles covering this in detail, if you'd like to know more.

Thank you, William. On this page earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves3of3music/ you'll find the third of three articles about the song, which is simply a list of links of different versions, including Neil Young's. All the best. Ian

Excellent. Thank you!

Köszönöm, Maria.

Well, thank you!

Thank you. :-)

I do the same before! I even don't know the lyrics back then and only listen to the instrumental version. But when I heard the lyrics, it gives so much meaning and makes me want to stare to the moon all night.

You're very welcome.

School and exams? How so?

That's one of the great things about song: that is always a range of interpretations. 5 verses of 'Why don't you want me, babe? Look at all the gear I have and the gifts I sent you! Why don't you love me?!' may be seen as rather sad, but 18 verses possibly comedic. On the other hand, this was a broadside, and broadsides were typically very long to fill the broadsheet and give the customers value for money, so there's nothing unusual in its length. It's also worth noting that medieval and renaissance love songs were almost always unrequited, usually on the theme of the lovesick man pining after the woman who either doesn't want to know or doesn't even know of his existence, so Greensleeves is very much in that tradition, albeit with a particularly uncomprehending man who sees she's not interested but still keeps on and on!

Thank you, Gelsenbury. 'Pastyme with good companye' is in the Henry VIII manuscript, British Museum Add. MS 31922, a hand-written book compiled c.1510-22 to reflect music-making in the royal court at the time of Henry’s marriage to Catherine of Aragón, his wife from 1509 until the dissolution of the marriage in 1533. The manuscript includes other well-known pieces such as 'A Robyn, gentil Robyn' by William Cornysh the Younger, Master of the Children of the Chapel Royal, responsible for the musical and dramatic entertainments at court, conducting the choir, composing music for services, and staging entertainments at court for important diplomatic events. While there is no evidence Henry ever saw the Henry VIII manuscript, 20 songs and 13 instrumental pieces bear his name, “The Kynge H”, including 'Pastyme', and this can only mean he was the composer. The book does not, of course, include 'Greensleeves'!

@@IPMusic Amazing, thank you! Coincidentally, I'm practising "Robin, gentle robin" at the moment. I didn't know that the songs were from the same collection.

It is a very sad song. A man is throwing all of his considerable wealth at a woman so she will love him - and she won't. He just doesn't get that being loved isn't about being impressed by money. That's sad.

Thank you, 12th December. Greensleeves follows in a long line of songs with a man complaining he's given all to a woman and she still won't love him, all the way back to the medieval troubadours and their international counterparts. Since Greensleeves first appeared as a broadside ballad, and was written in this well-established tradition, it's quite unlikely that it was written with any one woman in mind, but rather as a commercially-viable song to sell on a familiar theme, not so different to pop song-writers today looking for a hit that will get people singing.

Thank you, Lisa. That's a very moving message.

Hello, Misha. That's a good question. Broadside ballads - of which 'Greensleeves' is an example - had long and often elborate titles, but were known by popularly by an abbreviated form, 'A Newe Northen Dittye of ye Ladye Greene Sleves' = 'Greensleeves' being such an example. It's impossible to know now whether Greenesleeves really did have a northern origin and whether northern meant northern England or, as it usually did, Scotland. There was a fashion for writing 'Scotch' or 'northern' songs, as if there were Scottish, but which were actually written by those employed to pen ballad verses for London publishers. A good example that explains itself in the title is a broadside printed some time between 1624 and 1680, 'The lovely Northerne Lass, Who in this ditty here complaining, shewes What harme she got milking her dadyes Ewes. To a pleasant Scotch tune, called, The broome of Cowdon knowes.'

Hello, Prometheus. As I state in this article, earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/ we don't have a copy of the original broadside of 1580, but they're very likely the same words as in A Handful of Pleasant Delights, 1584, which has, as you say, 18 verses. (The article gives some of the verses and a summary of the rest.)

There is certainly a lot of money in the song: the extremely wealthy narrator tells us about all the money he's spent on a woman, and still she won't love him. I think he has the wrong idea about love, so it's difficult not to side with the woman. So we could say the song is about both money and a very skewed idea of love.

Thank you so much. I do have CDs available at www.ipmusic.org.uk but my version of Greensleeves isn't on them. It was recorded specially for the folk music programme, Gentle Folk 2, as was the interview, and then included in this video.

You'll find that, and many other versions of Greensleeves, collected on this page: earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves3of3music/

I thought i was the only one hearing" what child is this " in this song😂... I was mashing it with this song

Hello, Aryaman. Greensleeves is in the dorian mode, with a finalis of D so, pitched like that, the 6th degree is B. (I know from your question that you know this - I'm explaining for anyone else interested who might read the comments.) In the verses, the 6th degree is natural, in the chorus it is sharpened according to the original music. You'll find an explanation to the background of the Greensleeves music here: earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves2of3history/ Ian

@@IPMusic Interesting, thank you very much!!

Henry VIII certainly was a composer. His verses were the standard romantic poetry of the time, his music was good. Being a prince, he had the best of everything, including music tuition. He didn't compose Greensleeves, though.

It really isn't a chicken and egg situation, Troy. 'Greensleeves' was registered as a broadside ballad in 1580. 'What Child Is This' was a poem by English poet and lay theologian William Chatterton Dix, originally called 'The Manger Throne', written in 1865. It was set by John Stainer to 'Greensleeves' in 1871. That's a three century gap.

This is partially right, Adi. In other words, what you suggest is correct for some songs, such as Gown of Green, where green is clearly a euphemism, but not universally true of all songs which mention green clothing, and certainly not true of Greensleeves. Indeed, this view as applied to Greensleeves has led to a lot of other, equally unsubstantiated and erroneous claims about the song. Also, Greensleeves is renaissance and Gown of Green and euphemistic songs of their kind are baroque, so neither are medieval. For the details, see: earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/

Hi, According to Meg Lota Brown and Kari Boyd McBride, in the book "Women's Roles in the Renaissance", Lady Green Sleeves was a prostitute (but only perhaps) because the phrase "a green gown" (grass marks), at that time, had sexual connotations.

Adi, Brown and McBride are demonstrably wrong. A green gown did have sexual connotations in *later* songs and poems: there is no evidence of this idea in the 16th century, when Greensleeves was written, besides which Lady Greensleeves has green *sleeves*, not a green gown and, in terms of the wording of the allusion, this is critical. There is also absolutely no evidence that renaissance prostitutes wore green: this is a modern and spurious invention. There are no examples of the green gown allusion referencing prostitution: it refers exclusively to pregnancy, green meaning both a roll in a grass (perhaps) and fertility (certainly). For the detailed evidence, see: earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/

Yes, it is all accurate and evidenced at earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/ and earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves2of3history/

Philip, I explain in great detail why Henry couldn't have written it in the article that goes with the video - see earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/ Your objection isn’t cogent. “It's a song older than we know, that's why its been redone so many times.” The first clause in that statement is self-defeating: how can it be older than we know? If we have a date for it and no earlier evidence, as is the case, then we have evidence for how old it is. The second clause is written as if it follows from the first, but “It's a song older than we know” has no logical connection to “that's why its been redone so many times.” Your next sentences - “It's a known tune. The tune came from somewhere.” - are statements of the obvious and do not present either a logical argument or any evidence of authorship. “Just because the older paper is from 1580 doesnt mean it couldn't have been traditional for years before that.” I think by “the older paper” you must mean the broadside ballad of that year. If it was “traditional for years before that” then there must be evidence for it. There is none. In short, the language of 1580 is very different to the language of Henry's reign, and Greensleeves is in the language of 1580. Most fundamentally, any claim - and I mean any claim about anything - is baseless and to be dismissed unless evidence is provided. There is no evidence of Greensleeves before 1580, and Henry died in 1547. If someone is still to claim that Henry wrote it, or that it is older than 1580 (which is not necessarily the same claim), they must then provide evidence that this is so. No one has so far presented any evidence. If you have some evidence, I'll be glad to follow up the reference.

I'd like to see the historical evidence for Henry VIII being a time-traveller! :-)

The "rolling in the hay" idea is appropriate for some songs, but certainly not for Greensleeves, as I explain in detail in the article here: earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/ I address this in my reply to Adi Nerona in the comments on this page. Middle English wouldn't be appropriate for a song from 1580 onwards, as no one spoke it by then. At 6.57 in your Evolution of Music video you use a version of 'Mirie it is' I posted, interpreted from the original manuscript. I removed the version you use from RU-vid in September 2018 and replaced it with an amended and, I believe, more accurate rendering of what the manuscript says. You'll find that here ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6HhyqDxAmXE.html and the explanation of my workings out here earlymusicmuse.com/mirie-it-is-while-sumer-ilast/ I'd be grateful if you'd amend the video with my amended version and this time credit me.

@@IPMusic It's quite hard to amend the video ever since the removal of prompts in the middle of videos allowing corrections, but I have added your new version in the top comment and credited you both there and in the description. Really sorry for not crediting you the first time - I shall correct that at once! And thank you for the links

​@@IPMusic I had been thinking of making more such music-based videos, I'd be happy to link to yours (with your permission) in those too. I did post a "community message", which often reaches a few thousand people (certainly most of my active subscribers) with a link to your new video yesterday, but it didn't get much traction. I'd also be happy to collaborate with you on a video discussing medieval music, if you'll forgive me, and redirect everyone to your channel (which I will do my utmost to do anyway)! I'd also like to reassure you that the video is not monetised on my end, and that the various artists have done the fair thing and claimed it and make money off of it, as I had intended in the first place - would there be any way for you to make a copyright claim? It would be very unfair for you to get no traction or ad revenue from me using your work (unauthorised! I was younger and even more foolish) after all. Warm regards and sorry again!

@@ABAlphaBeta, thank you for your reply, which I very much appreciate. I don't monetise any of my videos as I find adverts before videos - and sometimes even in the middle of them! - really annoying. There's also the fact that I wouldn't have a say on who advertises on my videos, and I certainly wouldn't want to be associated with some advertisers. Thank you for the links - acknowledgement of sources and permission where appropriate is always good practice.

Hello, Omar. I don't recall Greensleeves being on The Muppets. I have looked online and can't find it, alas. Have you seen The Muppets' Ode to Joy? Genius! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-VnT7pT6zCcA.html

What the words were and how they were pronounced in the late 16th century are two different questions. The words in the video are the original words, as you can see here: earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/

Thank you. The best answer we have is: an anonymous broadside ballad writer.

@@IPMusic haha thanks and that cover in the middle of the video was a great performance.

Sal, Greensleeves was a broadside ballad. It wasn’t ‘submitted’: it was written by a ballad monger, as nearly all broadsides were, the exceptions being songs from the stage. Are you really, seriously, truly, actually meaning to suggest that Queen Elizabeth I *secretly* submitted a song by her father to be published as a broadside ballad to be sold in the street, decades after his death?! And without having his name on it?! What, pray tell, is your evidence for that?! Indeed, what is your evidence that Henry VIII has any connection whatsoever with Greensleeves?

...I did not say there was any evidence to this...just a possible suggestion ... Some have said it was impossible for him to have written this song ...but it still is in the realm of possibilities based on the fact that their daughter was the Queen during that time period and we do know that Henry VIII loved music and loved writing music as well and some of the words to this song do fit their relationship ...once again just saying

@@salloschiavo4193 "I did not say there was any evidence to this". So nothing more needs to be said or can be said of any consequence.

Morgan, please show the evidence for that statement. Where is the manuscript source in Henry's hand for the song? Where is the historical reference to Henry writing the song? Where is the evidence that Henry wrote this and kept it private? What would the reason be for a king to keep a song private about the woman he was publicly marrying, when a collection of his songs was already in existence and no secret? Where is the evidence that links this song in any way to Anne Boleyn? For what reason would a royally written song first appear not in a grand manuscript but in a cheap broadside ballad 47 years after his marriage to Anne Boleyn and 33 years after his death, with no evidence of its existence before it was a broadside? My article linked to here explains why there is absolutely no historical source that connects the song to Henry VIII or Anne Boleyn or substantiates the entirely modern myth you are repeating. earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/

I did not say it was written by him, I said it was composed for him and given as a gift, if you listen to some of the interviews for the anne boleyn files they talk about it. Also, its recorded that she wore an elaborate green dress to court and it was one of his favorite dresses of hers.

@morgan smith, the statement that Greensleeves was written for Henry VIII requires evidence. My previous comment stated what that evidence might be, and you have not addressed this. There is no evidence at all of the song before 1580. If you have any historical documentation that shows otherwise, you should state what it is. It would ground-breaking, as no one else has seen it. Look at all the renaissance women wearing green dresses in this article: earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/ A reference to Boleyn wearing a green dress proves precisely nothing (so the historical source, if indeed there really is one, doesn't matter). There is no more evidence of Greensleeves being written for any one of the women in the article than for Anne Boleyn. In that article you'll also find chapter and verse on why none of the mythology about Greensleeves is based on even a hint of evidence. The following article earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves2of3history/ shows what the real evidence is. Nothing in Greensleeves ties it to a real historical person. Historical veracity means relying on evidence, not hanging on to baseless mythology regardless of the evidence. So I ask again: if you have any historical documentation that links Greensleeves in any way whatever to Henry VIII, or that the song existed in any form before 1580, you should state what it is.

@@morgansmith7365, I'm confused. I've checked the website you suggest www.theanneboleynfiles.com/resources/anne-boleyn-words/anne-boleyn-songs/ The source you cite confirms that Greensleeves has no connection with Henry VIII.

@@IPMusic Henry was known to secret private matters, also his minister Cromwell. Anne Boleyn Tower letter was said to be amongst Cromwell private papers, discovered upon his death. So much is missing or lost in the passing of time. If this song was indeed written for Henry, I could see his enormous ego keeping it private. I do feel this haunting song does capture Henry's feelings for Anne B. early on. A musical mystery.

Mary, I'm not sure I understand. A course is the word used for strings in unison or in octaves on a lute. If you mean 9 verses, there are 18 verses. I'm not surprised no one sings all 18 verses. Perhaps that's a video for you to make, if you're a singer.

You have used a copied version of my own work to try and correct me. No one can take out a patent on music. I think you must mean the entry in the stationer's register. And 1850? I think you must mean 1580, David. There is no evidence of the song before 1580 (if that is what you mean). It may have been written a little before 1580 (1579, etc.), but if we're going to rely on evidence rather than repeated hearsay, 1580 is our earliest date. No mention whatever of the song before then, so if we're going to claim a date much earlier than that, we have to account for there being ample evidence of the song in and after 1580 and zero evidence before then. Stories of the song being around before are demonstrably false, as I show in the article here: earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/ I have had correspondence with Medieval Chronicles in 2015 due to the inaccuracy of their articles, even on the basics of when the medieval period was. I declined when the website owner asked me to go through his music articles and correct them - it's not my site. (Articles on other topics similarly still need serious corrections.) On this occasion you're citing a Medieval Chronicles page where the Greensleeves article is clearly cribbed entirely from mine (link just given), but without acknowledgement or permission.

You'd get green *sleeves* from having your *knees* on the grass? That's a magic trick worthy of Penn and Teller! To see the 'grass stains' myth and the other modern myths about Greensleeves debunked with historical evidence, see earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/ To read the verifiable facts, see earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves2of3history/

@IPMusic Sleeves in medeival times simply referred to loose clothing, not how we see sleeves today.

No, sleeves were sleeves, but detachable. The word 'sleeves' has never referred to any item of clothing as long as it is loose. A loose hat has never been called a sleeve! Greensleeves isn't a medieval song, it's high renaissance, then it had a long history through the baroque period. I have backed up all my commentary about the song with historical references in this article: earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/ If you're to claim that a sleeve was any item of loose clothing, that Greensleeves was medieval, and that the green referred to grass stains, that needs to be backed up by historical references. Please refer to any part of the song that justifies your claims. Please read the article and state anything you have contrary evidence for.

Hahahaha! Yes, it *is* the song of a simp who just can't believe she isn't impressed.

Rave, you put forward theories without any supporting evidence, based on the foregone conclusion that Henry was the author. Real evidence does not lead to foregone conclusions. For Henry's authorship there is not a single piece of evidence, and everything is to the contrary. There is no evidence of the words before 1580. For further explanation of these points, see earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/

Hello, Helen. I'm not entirely sure if you're tongue in cheek or serious. If I take your comment seriously, please give just a single piece of historical evidence that: (a) Henry VIII wrote Greensleeves, when there is no evidence of it before 1580 and Henry died in 1547; (b) Elizabeth I kept the song secretly, which is not documented anywhere, and then, most strange behaviour for a monarch, she gave it for publication to a broadside seller in 1580 without attaching either her name or her father's name to it. Have a read of my articles here earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/ and here earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves2of3history/ and tell me which historical sources I've missed.

Elizabeth was indeed a very secretive woman, many times by necessity, particularly where her mother was concerned. She wore an elaborate pinky ring her entire reign which concealed a portrait of her and reportedly her mother, Anne Boleyn. She also had an extensive spy network at her command. So, yes, Elizabeth had a secretive nature.

If Elizabeth had a secretive nature, that gives no information whatever about Greensleeves, written long after Henry was dead.