Whats crazy is the BR shooters will do the primer depth test first and then after that, fine tune the spring using spacers. I have a CPS and have spoken to Greg when calling for customer support - but this has been the best explanation I have heard to date on this topic. Keep these coming!!
Can’t get enough of you too, everything you to say makes so much sense, and again it does start with primer pockets always has and always will. I’m 63 years old and I’ve been focused on primer pockets for over 40 years. Thanks for all the help thanks for all the advice, keep it up thank you 🇺🇸
The simplest and best way I know to check primer pocket depth from the rim is to insert the case in the case holder you are using in the primer seater and measure through the hole with a small depth gauge to the bottom of the primer pocket from the bottom of the shell holder. This way you are measuring the same method as the primer press seats the primer. Obviously you are depending on the precision of the case holder itself but you are doing the same with the primer seater anyway.
I shoot 1000yd benchrest in both light and unlimited gun classes with two rifles i built myself. I use to get worried about primers being seated the same but finally, I found out that not all primer cups are exactly the same. As well as through various testing not finding any difference in vertical. Now with like my 6bra light gun i have found that less is actually better. Fire formed lapua 6br brass which i do not uniform pockets for or flash holes anymore because then you have to do the same thing exactly the same way 100 times for a box of 100cases. I no longer tumble at all either. I do a clean up turn on that 6bra brass after fire formed and use AMP machine after every firing, no tumbling just using a nylon brush which you get a hard coating of carbon in the case that actually aides in uniform seating force. Since i quite uniforming flash holes and pockets and quit tumbling my 10 shot groups have shrunk to 4" at 1000yd and a lot of top guys are doing it the same way where i compete at Williamsport
What i loved about this video is that I found Erik and Greg from two different directions, then i find this video of the two of them together. The information you guys are giving out for free is amazing. Thank you so much for everything you both have done for this sport and this lifestyle.
Erick don't sweat it, a lot of us understand where Greg is coming from and fully understand the importance of primer seating depth and the science behind it. I have plans on acquiring his priming tool in the near future. Thank you for interviewing Greg on this subject. You made a great choice.
Even a novice guy like myself can understand what these are are talking about, even if I'm not gonna do it or spend the money as of now. My reloading is for plinking 300 and closer and/or hunting whitetails with my Savage Axis rifle. When it shoots 1moa, I'm happy. But this type of information is priceless for me as I grow as a shooter and reloader. I'm never gonna shoot F-Class, never gonna shoot PRS competition (well maybe one day) but I love knowing the why's and what's to every aspect of this sport even if I never put it into practice. These guys have a way of explaining complex issues in a way my public school brain can understand! I love this stuff.
FYI Erik The primer pocket and the case head markings are performed as a “heading” operation. It’s cold formed. The case rim is a second op performed on a lathe with a form tool. The uniformity tolerance is due to how the lathe holds the brass and what it is referencing off of. If the stamped the brass after the rim was formed the brass would be scrap in our world
If you don't mind me asking what is the datum ultimately when making a case? You infer there is one but I missed what it is? My guess (and only a guess) is that when the slug is being drawn the bottom of the inside of the case is used in that regard. What they're talking about is certainly a lesson in stacked tolerances depending on what is being referenced from where and how.
Hey, thank you for having Greg on your channel. I have a CPS and it's my favorite part of reloading. I actually look forward to priming brass, no joke you set it n forget it. It's fast, easy and comfortable to do. I often catch myself priming more than I planned. I look for more brass to prime just because I'm having to much fun lol. It's worth every dollar invested compared to other tools of the trade. God bless & peace out
RCBS Benchtop Primer with Holland Shooters upgrade seems to be a good alternative to CPS system. Holland system also comes with a Primer depth indicator.
Keep them coming ! This info is once again priceless . This clears up primer seating for me . It’s always been a unknown . Many people have a specific depth ? But if u measure even crudely , I knew this could be just one measurement fits all ? Love the technical interviews ! This is what keeps me coming back .
I was aware of the ignition system timing on the gun, because of people discussing lock time on Schuetzen rifles. People talked about the difference between an external hammer and internal striker such as a Win 1885 and a Ruger #1, and how much difference it can make to offhand shooting. It's good to hear it put together with the primer seating regimen to create the overall picture of that system. And the lube part, all you have to do is shoot an autoloader in increasingly colder temps over a day to understand that one in a hurry. That even cost me a rabbit one day about 35 yrs ago, frozen bolt due to the lube. The part on the depth measuring of the pockets and the seater tool anomaly needed to be pointed out as a start point, not something I ever worried about, but, makes a lot of sense. Rimmed cartridges are notorious on rim thickness issues from lot to lot, that was the first thing that I related to when you were talking about rims, I have 218 Bee brass that is ok in the Forster press and universal jaws, and some that isn't, because of that variance. Fun show today.
I have been watching you guys since I fell down this rabbit hole. So much great info. Always an eye opener when i dial up one of you guys. Thanks for sharing your knowledg. Its priceless.
Townsend Whelen first talked about the importance of primer pellet crush to consistent accuracy many years ago. Ken Markel built a tool to set primer pellet crush based of the depth of pocket and height of primer and setting crush precisely. Interesting to see this discussed, Its as if new generations have to relearn what was discovered in our past. Looks like a nice tool certainly would help load a larger quantity of brass.
I have seen other videos on this tool. I'm still shocked that people will spend $600 on a piece of equipment that needs a rubber band to complete the action it performs. Im with several other folks comments here. Show the difference on target and I may be interested. Quote Erik here...you guys are making it to complicated, get some good brass, some good freedom seeds load them up and go practice shooting...end quote. Man if your passion is being the best reloader in the world then by all means buy the next new expensive shiny thing and spend all your time reloading. But if your passion is shooting well you gotta take Erik's advice...load them up consistently the same and go practice shooting.
Your correct if all you want to do is sling lead and your happy with a .5” group shoot away. But if you want to shoot in the .1’s then do what you have to do. But to each their own. You don’t have to bash someone else’s passion just because it’s not yours.
They say time is money and with the primal Right seater I save a bundle of time. I waited to order because of the price at $675 but I am after a year happy as can be with what this primer seater does for me. I have a few of the other seaters and nothing comes close to the Primal Rights tool.
Greg's priming tool is an excellent piece of kit. No doubt the best available on the market at the moment or , ever has been, truth be told. Although I'm not convinced that primer seating depth has as great an influence on repeatability as Greg assures us, I, like most others, simply don't have the time or resources to test the statistical significance of the claims however, since this does not mean that Greg's claims are not statistically valid, it seems to me that the ability to seat primers to precise depth is logically the best course of action &, can realistically only be achieved with Greg's priming tool at this point in time.
I had a challenge seating CCI primers in PPU cases. When I used a tool to “uniform” the pocket (pocket was clean) the primer seating was easy. However I’m left with the issue of hand pressure to seat the primer. I can see why this method is not creating any true uniformity. I haven’t experienced any issues with groups at the bench. I have noticed that military spec 7.62x39 ammunition has the primer set deeper than civilian. Thanks for the video! And to all of you experts.
I borrowed a friend of mine's PR primer seater and saw no difference in my groups NOW that I have seen this I'm going to go get it again and retry it..great video
This is a gold mine. I love this information thank you Erik! Also anyone that is thinking about Patreon.... Do it. I keep finding more and more videos and I keep learning more and more.
Eric, I watch many videos of experienced competitors and reloaders to gain any fraction of knowledge that I can derive. I shoot mostly the large 50 BMG caliber, and have been measuring primer pockets before and after firing, measuring primers (several manufacturers), and the anvil prongs. Each separate lot of my brass is identifiable from the others, and I do uniform the pockets, even the match brass. My custom commercial primer seater uses the head of the cartridge as the datum and will easily and reliably seat primers to less than .001" accuracy. As your video shows, it is important for accuracy to have the "Mechanics of Ignition" as constant as possible. Consistently arming the primer is controllable, the hardness of the primer cup, and the priming compound are variables that we cannot control. I do log everything in a spreadsheet, and every shot on target is logged as well. If we only derive 1% benefit from a particular process but we do 10 of these we see a 10% improvement:) You control how much your willing to do for accuracy. Keep up the good work, and thanks for your contribution to our sport.
I cleaned my muzzel break in CLR and forgot it for a day or two. The carbon was gone but it was also covered in a green film that would wipe off and the nitride with it. So given enough time it will.
AB has some interesting test data around primer seating depth, chamfering flash holes etc which pauses me on spending 600 unless I was hoping to purely improve accuracy.
Maybe one of the problems with his credibility is that he's claiming that completely independent of everything else if you use his product your groups are going to shrink by 50%. He said this twice. I can't imagine this is even close the average case. We're talking about the difference between off the shelf ammo and good load tested handloads in a lot of cases. I welcome testing that proves the contrary because it would be the best $600 I've ever spent. Appreciate the conversation and the information contained as always. Definitely gives me something to think about.
That isn’t what he said. He can speak for himself but the point here is not to misrepresent a 1:44 talk with a concept that is wrong. He said said that the other factors had to be tuned in a “balanced eco-system” for this to work. He also mentioned that if those other factors are not under control, it would be an easy mistake to misinterpret a test to the point of blaming the poor outcome on the wrong cause. Maybe take another pass at the whole session and see what you think.
I'm not mischaracterizing what he said. He says that his product led to shrinking groups by 50% twice in the video. Once in passing early and then near the end specifically saying that after using his primer seating depth test to tune ignition timing using the CPS that it shrinks groups by half on an otherwise tuned load. He didn't say it MAY shrink groups or he's seen it do this on occasion. Which is the problem with the statement. This is a direct quote. "If you've got a properly worked out load, your charge weight is right on the money, your seating depth is where it's supposed to be, the rest of the ecosystem is all worked out I'm talking half". "It will improve your groups by half if you're already shooting half MOA". This was his closing statement regarding the primer seating depth test. You can hear it yourself at around 1:13:30. Again I really do believe there's valuable information here and I think the product looks great and will offer more consistency. However, I believe a blanket statement like the one he made actually hurts the credibility in my mind.
@@MMBRM well it’s not an inaccurate claim. From bullseye.45 guys to all of bench rest to all of fclass if you do all the work ie. Yourself. Gun. Then ammo but just seat primers by feel not stop then yea I’d say it can be half. Is it always? No can’t be. But if you were to take a br guys brass and let him do everything normal but you load his primers by hand with a squeezer and let him shoot it yea it would probably open up by 100%. It’s kinda like if you did everything but had a variance of 20 psi neck tension. It’s just another thing that’s not uniform. I don’t think he plain states half always, but it’s definitely possible and definitely matters.
Another great conversation! I, for one, would never have give it that much thought. It certainly makes sense, though. Thanks for sharing these innovations with us.
Yeah, that darn primer can manipulate the head space length from 10 thousandths to more than 1 thousandth. Variations in that length would in fact screw up firing timing. I've thought about it but just didn't pursue the issue
pocket uniformity allows a primer to bottom out. I just had pockets that were angled, the outside was higher than the middle. When I used my pocket uniformer to cut off that high spot. That's all that was needed to allow the primer to bottom out, and the depth was uniform just below, like a .001
Bald Eagle Precision Products primer seater made by Shiraz Balolia. One of the best reloading tools. Has .002 thousandth incrimate adjustments. Thing is Awesome, but unfortunately Shiraz doesn't make them anymore. I seen F-Class John using one in one of his videos. 👍 Im pretty sure Gregs CPS is a pretty sweet unit also.
CLR does affect black nitride. I discovered this on a muzzle brake. It turned the shiny black coating into a flat black finish. So don’t clean nitride parts with it. But it works magic on removing carbon from the bore quickly… and every bore is bare metal so no biggie. I think it can etch steel so I keep the dwell time very short just as I do when removing copper with ammonia. Cheers everyone!
One thing I have noticed about uniforming primer pockets is not necessarily the depth. It is that they are not square all the way to the base of the primer pocket. The pocket uniform tool helps to square the pocket. I would think this would help to seat the primer against the anvil?
....seen this a while back on F-Class John....good stuff because for the past 3 decades no one payed attention when I talked about this which I was introduced to back in the early 70's from my Father who shot 1000Y,.....learning from following the 1000Y club in Williamsport Pa.,....for atleast 30 years plus now I have a huge assortment of primer-seating-stems precision ground to different lengths for my RCBS hand primer-tools to adjust for this.........crude I guess, but, been finding changes in group performance, also depending on primer make aswell when seated. This tool, although expensive, looks to make this process very simplified & more accurate than what I have achieved.
I used rice for years. I only used it because it was cheaper than walnut hulls. But it will mold after a while. Now I use a mix of walnut hulls and stainless pins and pieces in a dry tumbler to clean.
I'm absolutely not a BR shooter but this is making a lot of sense. I have an RCBS bench primer and I'm understanding more about what my goal should be. An interesting test would be to gently crush 10 primers until there is a small consistent dint in the primer and another 10 do them all differently. Some almost proud some rammed in etc.
My RCBS priming tool will rip a rim off a 308 case if the pocket is too tight or even if a primer gets in sideways But his idea for people with arthritis is great Big believer in Imperial Sizing wax !!!
Any system that seats a primer indexing off of the front face of the rim, the primers will vary in depth depending on the difference between the front of the rim and the base of the case. This can vary, depending on brand, by several thousandths from case to case.
Ignition timing = ignition ark Greg and Erik! Ignition timing effects to what degree the primer is gonna yield, proper/even powder burns and ultimately pressure. Good show Erik and Greg.
Like I’ve told Erik with this primer seater it needs a “mandrel die” that touches the inside of the cartridge on the rim and can be used as part of the measurement tool.
I agree that trying to improve a Lapua primer pocket is a waste time. I will say that using a uniformer on a Hornady primer pocket is almost required. That's because of the way the pocket is formed. Is it machined or punched. Lapua is a no brainer when it comes to my 6.5 Creedmoor however Lapua is not an option for 6mm ARC.
Wet tumble with distilled white vinegar, dawn dish soap and stainless needle bearings in distilled water over night. You will have brand new looking brass in the morning.
I picture the firing pin hitting the primer at 25lbs or so, smacking that primer all the way in. Then the primer explodes and the force on the primer is pushing it towards the base, then the main load ignites and pushes 60,000 psi against that primer. With this logic I would assume it is more important that the primer is flush with the base of the casing because having the primer slide back 2--6 thousands would create cushion for the explosions and would more be inconsistent than making sure your primer doesn't move. (correct pocket depth).
@@BelieveTheTarget Yes- Tight but perfectly flush with base so the primer doesn't move once 60,000 psi ignites. I would suspect a pressure limiting press would be more accurate. If a primer pocket uniformity tool was built into the sizing die press you would know everything would be straight and square. I'm not convinced putting your ammo in 3-4 different shell holders and presses everything is staying aligned. But you guys have way more experience loading ammo than me. I'm just a contractor jack of all trades master of none. :-) Tnx for these videos.
Test a Forster Bonanza primer seater.. I thought it was expensive but I wouldn't trade it for any other seater, worth every penny. It is designed to seat all primers to the same depth.
So with everything else aside what you saying is find a good load then try adjusting your primer depths to see if you can further improve it? Or do I have to redevelop load every time I change depths?
Eric, I size the shoulder measured from the base. I trim to length from the base. I set seating length from the base. Why can't I measure primers and the cup from that same point? Everything indexes from there. Should I uniform the rim thickness from the base? That's what you're talking about, right?
At least you made it super obvious that you didn't actually listen. Nobody said the basic act of seating a primer in a case was difficult. But it is hard to do it reliably with extreme precision and repeatability. They aren't talking about just sending a bullet downrange, shooting moa, or even shooting 1/2 moa. They are aiming for degrees of precision well beyond what the typical shooter might need or be interested in. These are the types of guys that rebarrel their rifle if it won't consistently shoot under 1/3 moa.
You discussed that the primer pocket changes with each firing. In an effort to maintain consistency of primer pocket size and case dimensions would it be beneficial to roll size the case as part of the reloading process?
All that and the Lee APP press does a more consistent job of seating primers for almost 1/6th the cost. The CPS does give full control over a wider range primer depth settings. So God put him hear to mentor shooting? Does that mean he's God's gift to shooting?
I’m a cherry reloader, about 300 rounds so far. So I’ve done a ladder test and seating depth test and chosen accordingly. If I do a primer seating depth test now, would you go back and redo the other two? My thinking would be maybe a ladder test but not a seating depth test.
You do have to be very careful if you decide to uniform if the uniformer is spinning it is very easy to enlarge a primer pocket I’m sure some people use them on a device that has power such as a RCBS case prep or something along those lines
Back in the early 90's I first tried hand loading at a reloading place that would let the public reload using there tools. But you would pay for powder, primer, bullets. All my brass was dirty. I wanted it shiny the guy told me to use rice. I had a tumbler I put 40 brass in there and let it run for 2 days. It didn't get Shiney. Didn't do it again. Lol. I still don't know anything about reloading but it shoots when I pull the trigger.
If this works for you, great. I’m certainly not sold on it. Do you full length size off the rim? Does your bolt push your brass against the chamber from the rim? Does your firing pin distance get set from the rim? Do your fired cases primers sit down into the pocket or against the bolt face? Come on guys… Everything gets set up from the base to the shoulder. This is a wild goose chase conversation. My $99 Lee turret press seats primers just as uniformly as I can measure. If you have good brass, it doesn’t matter!
hmmm, so as per 1.43 ...if I drill a hole in a handle of my RCBS hand priming tool and install adjusting screw to control the velocity and seating depth ... I adjust to feel ... I can achieve the same thing as this 600 bucks tool. I did precisely that. Happy days
the biggest problem I have found trying to get into this sport is location and support iv reached out to a people online and gotten no response if you don't already personally know a accomplished shooter your limited to videos and the guy in the store who's selling you whatever he can by saying whatever he can I've watched the same guy I bought my guns from guarantee with factory ammunition quarter moa to sell a x bolt which is possible I've seen it once in a factory Ruger but it shouldn't be and they will say anything to sell whatever is on there shelf iv struggled with a couple of things and have found no help if a person is going to learn and know what they need to have they need to learn from the best or your not actually learning anything now I'm not raging on you guys I have not tried to reach out to you and everything I do know has come from your videos and a select few others and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to make them for us I'm just saying for a person who wants to learn and have some support in doing things the best way they can be done who doesn't know or live by someone who has already been through this it's tough I can't even get information from the guys around me that are just loading for there hunting rifle lol
I'd just like to find a brick of primers. From the classic "Secrets of the Houston Warehouse" "Virgil added that although he never saw an inaccurate primer, he went with the prevailing opinion and used Federal 205M’s. They were seated with a Lee tool, and he was unable to detect any accuracy variances resulting from seating pressure. Apparently, as long as the primer isn’t crushed and ruined in seating, nothing else in seating really matters."
I agree with many of the stories about poor ignition timing being the cause of everything from a reliability problem to a factor in performance. I had the unfortunate experience of discovering the extreme problem of reliability with two Savage actions that failed to ignite many different brands of primers. The journey of learning about those actions and their issues, really opened my eyes to ignition timing and the contribution to performance. The experience caused my to go back and look at several other rifles and tuning recipes and I discovered I was leaving some performance on the table. There are many parameters that have to be managed to get to the point where you can shoot the difference in primer seating depth, but do yourself a favor and take a look when the time comes.
Probably dumb question but I have always worried about accuracy with my .357 magnum pistol. Has anybody tried this on pistols? Adjusting the primers. Just a short rifle to me and a curious mind.
So, not trying to knock any of this information, because it is good stuff for sure. I own one of the Primal Rights CPS tools. But is this case, much like the Creighton Audette 10 Shot Ladder Test was reinvented by a popular PRS Shooter, this is a new version of an old design tool. Take a look at Handloader 333 page 66, picture of the late Bob Hayley in his reloading lab from 2008. To his left on the bench are two upside down Shoffstall's Universal arbor press style primer seaters very similar to the CPS. It is a GREAT tool, just not a new invention. Just saying
Very interesting and enlightening! So help me sort this out…..I have limited resources which in itself becomes a limiting factor to consistency. I have a long way to go and experience to date (reloading less than a year) have yielded limited improvement. As I work that direction where do I start??? So buy a CPS or an AutoTrickler, to get started down the path of precision. Prometheus would consume all available resources $$. Thanks.
