Grenadier, Defender, Patrol, LC300, Part 3: Slippery Climb 

Thanks..it wasn't the car's fault. If all four tyres spin at the same time...that's tyres. If three are spinning, that's the car as the fourth may be able to pull it forwards. In all these tests it's a car limitation not a tyre limitation. That's bit of a simplifcation as wheelbase may be a factor as an example, or tyre diameter, but when 4 wheels spin it's not necessarily the car at fault.

it's an issue of the driver and tyres

Grenadier got best tyre setup with steel rims and lots of side wall if you aired down all 4 cars tyres to more optimal pressures for conditions Grenadier would have won easily and other 3 vehicles are limited to beter tyre options makes Grenadier Best.

Gx600 is an lc300

LX600 is LC 300 GX550 is LC 250 Prado

@@matthewhubbard7177 thanks for the correction!

Interesting that it flexes better in normal height....on my 2012 L322 in off road height mode the cross valve articulation is turned on and it flexes more in off road height as confirmed by me lifting each tire corner with a forklift. I've since installed a 2" lift via custom air bag spacers so now my truck is in off road height as "normal" but the bags are only inflated to "normal" height dimensions. Maybe they changed something on the new Defender to limit the off road setting articulation....doesn't make sense why they would do that though.

It's got cross-linked air suspension. See Part 1 for an explanation.

The cross linking is better in Rock Crawl mode. The new Def has dual chambers in the air struts allowing height independent of spring rate. A few years back I had a D3 fail to drive through a rutted obstacle when it was in Mud & Ruts but drove through with no issues when in Rock Crawl. Also played with ride height on the D3, RR and new D110.

@@L2SFBC So should the Defender flex more in "off road" height and or does the terrain response control setting have relevance here?

Because it's made for driving over curbs when mommy drives the kids around.

Was this written as you slept, or when you awoke? I hope your dreams were filled with pleasant images of suspension flexing and the gentle rumble of 4x4 engines. If you encounter further difficulty sleeping then maybe you'd like to watch my explanation of differentials?

@@L2SFBC Thank you so much for your kind reply and yes I have great difficulty in sleeping. I will definitely take on your recommendation of looking at the explanation of differentials. I welcome any other videos you have made that might put me into NOD land, very quickly you’re very kind sir thank you again. I have been sleeping better since I’ve been watching your videos.

Excellent summary, agreed!

I also think it's worth considering how the different vehicles were intended to deal with various traction challenges. Yes, the Ineos clearly showed a much slower and weaker BTC intervention, but it's the only one with front and rear electric locking solid axles (standard equipment). I interpret that to suggest it was intended to climb a track like that with at least the rear axle locked, while the front will maintain two-wheel contact further than the IFS vehicles in most situations (and still can lock if necessary). The Land Rover and Toyota, by comparison, are really intended to use BTC to maintain constant torque delivery to the ground, with the Toyota additionally using more flexible suspension design to avoid unloading or lifting wheels (admirably so for an IFS truck). The Defenders seem to lift tires whenever I see them crossed up, and I get the impression that's just baked into the design.

More to come!

Glad it was helpful!

Big tyres all the way. That's all it is.

It's also the heavier vehicle, good Job Nissan!

That was the only thing we could think of, and it soon evaporated.

Coming soon...its about ground clearance. Already on Pateron.

Patreon subscribed - nice video. @@L2SFBC

Thank you!

See Part 1, and stay tuned for further Parts.

hmm is that good or bad?

We did try that in the original test I did, with/without. I couldn't see any significant difference. However INEOS are known to be updating software. Ford improved the BTC on the Everest for example via software. And I did tell the driver to use offroad mode.

Had another look at that video - this time with subtitles on. The driver was actually turning on offroad mode to kill the parking sensors. He had engaged rear locker in the second attempt. So ignore my comment - BTC remains poor in all circumstances!

Yep rear locker would make it look good thanks for clarifying. Unfortunately no BTC on front axle with rear locker.

Why weren’t all the lockers turned on in the first instance for the Grenadier ? Did the other vehicles have some of their 4WD features turned off as well to make the comparison similar? Why not just put all the options on and see how they go side by side?

@@user-fz4xd7iv5v To test traction control systems.

It's cheese and pickle, not pickle and cheese 😋

@@FirestarterAJ12 i stand corrected, and that y62 did great, love to try my big powerwagon on that hill, thx matt

No all had all-terrains

@@L2SFBC The standard all terrains on the Defender are not as aggressive as the BFG KO2 tyres the Grenadier is wearing. Many of us are using Wild Peak, Maxxis and BFGs on our Defenders in preference to the stock offering.

@@atoieno agree and it dosnt seem to be considered the major difference in tyres also various traction options.

Look at Part 1 for that

That only tests BTC. It doesn't factor in articulation, ground clearance, flex, or anything else I evolved in making a good off-roader. The TFL test could show a Subaru being a "better" off-roader than a Bronco Sasquatch but we know that isn't true.

Agreed Paul - however, it's good to isolate variables so the roller test would be fantastic.

@@L2SFBC oh yes, it has its place, but your premise is the best off-roader and the rollers would only give us the BTC. I still watch every roller test I see.

1. Read the text caption in the video 2. Yes you're correct, it disables with just rear in unfortunately

Unlike the others , the simple electronics (the e locker) wasn't engaged. It would walk up.

It was engineered to have diff locks. If you activate them it won't slip a single wheel. And if you can lock all wheels the manufacturers don't need to refine the brake traction control as (he calls it) to the same level as when you don't have those lockers. And in this test they didn't activate any lockers. None of the other cars can lock all 3 diffs, so their reliance on the traction control is higher and the manufacturers need to spend more time refining it.

LC300 has all three diff lock, but rarely needs them due to enormous wheel travel. My takeaway is that Grenadier has mediocre wheel travel and poor BTC calibration, that’s why it needs all three lockers 😂

⁠@@dmitrijusapockinas16it has the second best articulation in this group which is why it still manages this terrain despite it’s traction control being a bit slower to activate than the others. The Grenadier locked with very good articulation is likely to be at least #2 in this group and less reliant on electronics than the Defender which is awesome with everything working but a brick if it doesn’t.

The GR sport has front center & rear diff locks. However the rest of the 300's don't. I have a 300 Sahara which I spent a fair chunk of change having front & rear lockers fitted to it. I have also lifted it 2 inches & thrown on Micky T baja boss all terrains. I'm fairly confident it would come out on top in this challenge.

Don't know about the old system - see Part 1 for more.

I hope they do a GR version - but I bet you it will cost a fortune buy one...

1. In Part 1 you can see the lockers in and out, and again in a future Part. 2. Yes not all Grenadiers have lockers, hence it is fair to test without, and sometimes on curving hills with sideslopes you're better off without them if possible. 3. Refer to Part 1 for the tyres, specs etc. All ran all-terrains.

@@L2SFBC thanks Robert

It's good - what you need to remember is that it's up against the best of the best in this test, like four F1 drivers racing. See my original Grenadier test for it vs the Ranger.

watch Part 1. The lockers were misbehaving on that run so we didn't use them.

I was thinking just this. Surely front back and centre diff locks would always be engaged in this situation? The point of the Grenadier is basically its mechanicalness and mechanical locks! (not to say Brake its brake traction control couldn't be better, it clearly could!) I assume all lockers were engaged in the other cars. I'd be really interested to see how the Grenadier performs versus the other if appropriately locked., Worrying that it was broken though.

@@jamiegoodhart7069 At the start, the caption says only the centre diff locked on all vehicles , not the axle lockers

Missed that thanks :-)@@4bnewb969

Not to repeat comments I’ve made before, but I suspect there is no meaningful BTC in the Grenadier. Apart from some marketing fluff in a brochure, there’s no mention of it anywhere. The owners manual refers only to ESC in Off-road Mode or “Reduced Stability” when ESC is switched off. And, when front and/or rear diff are locked, there is “no stability support available”. While I’d welcome any concrete information on an off-road focused BTC in the Grenadier, I suspect what we’re seeing in these (still excellent) videos is the Grenadier using just the road-focussed ESC and struggling off road. My front wheel drive family wagon behaves in the same way off road - the ESC does do something but, obviously, not very well.

Not the defender .When it stops you need a laptop and a technician or a flatbed

The Defender for me, no contest, suggest do a test drive in each.

One measure is look at people who actually spend their own money and buy these vehicles. Landcruiser sells approximately double patrol and defender sells a bit less than half of patrol.

​@@atoienoyet

Toyota land cruiser

all run all-terrains

Pretty sure they come standard with front, center, and rear lockers.

@@xm3ntal620I don’t think so. I think they’re options. Certainly in the uk anyway.

@@MrTreegeek1978 looks like it is standard on trailmaster trim and optional on the rest. TBH, if i'm spending this kind of coin I'm getting the lockers no question about it.

That is correct only standard on TM. Hence we test with and without. This was without there will be other tests with as there was in Part 1.

Give me one and yes

If I can find one!

Yes, lockers weren't working on it for that run, they were before as per Part 1, and you'll see them again later when they came back.

Nope

All on all terrains

explained in video

so grenadier had wet tyres? what about the rest?

Cost. They did all run all-terrains so very close.

Yes true re Defender. The Grenadier is available without lockers in 2 of the 3 current grades so it's fair to test with/without, and would anyway.

Not on that one, look at Part 1

No

Take the video for what it is. It does not purport to be a fully instrumented test that isolates specific variable to compare - and even if I could afford the time and effort to do that, then we get into academic value not real-world as each factor interplays. It is possible to learn a great deal from seeing the four cars do what they did and that is the value of the video, perhaps not to you but to others.

????

​@@L2SFBC I'm sorry, I was thinking the Mercedes, apparently other 4WD's with air suspension can be hacked/modded to do the same or similar.

It has a Breakdown mode that engages randomly on its own and gives you a sense of real adventure 😌

@@dibsaikia302 🤣

No it had all terrain

Not as aggressive as Patrol tyres or Toy tyres@@L2SFBC

No, it's not.

I doubt that's the case - sensitive BTC prevents excess wheelspin. See my three Toyota engineer interviews for details.

Good to know. @@L2SFBC

That doesn't make sense to me. Yes, the brake would cause torque redistribution and thus add some stress on the driveline, but I think that's minor. However, it the sensitivity is poor and TC has to engage with higher wheel spin, wouldn't that cause more stress on the driveline? It's more about the software they developed. As a new car manufacturer, I'd say they did very well on Grenadier, unlike Ford.

I agree with that logic. However, that is what the Toyota engineer said regarding the second gen Tundra atrac, that they were snapping or twisting axles with the increased torque of the V8. What I don't understand, is how that is so as the Landcruiser 200 was also the same/similar engine. I don't know if there were other differences in the strength of the axles. Furthermore, I don't understand why there would be any difference in BTC in any of the Toyota 4x4s; why would some need more/longer throttle response to engage the BTC. All I can say, is that with the Tundra, the drivers had to be educated on the need to stay on the throttle long enough to engage BTC otherwise if the RPMs dropped below @1500 the truck would be stuck and not go anywhere.@@angeloudy

Maybe it’s not about sensitivity. It could be that the sensitivity is the same, but brake force applied differently. When brake force applied more gently, there’s more wheel spin. Just guessing.

that's explained in the video

@@L2SFBC Ahh, yes. I didn't pay much attention to the txts.

Yes, as this is just about offroad capability, not touring capability. Where did you hear that about the jumpstart?

I don't know if that's true because powerfulukltd had to jump start a new defender with one of those jump starter packs and it started just fine.

@@L2SFBC Not sure about the original commenter, but I heard the same from Andrew St Pierre White (4XOverland). Apparently his friend with one drained the battery while parked up at a campsite for a few days and then couldn't jumpstart it without an internet connected Land Rover diagnostic computer attached.

You can jump start it.

4xoverland has a video on that. @@L2SFBC

LOL

it was unlucky...could have been the others!

Forgetting the 300 got stuck on the same rock Typical comment from a Toyota driver

No, the 300 failed before the rock, it didn't made the little ledge climb. It was first up so track was in the worst condition, and it's trivial in the dry, I've even pulled a 2800kg trailer up it. This is why we did two runs, and even then tiny differences in speed, line, state of the ground make a difference between slip and no slip. Unfortunately the environmental factors cannot be precisely controlled, so allowances need to be made.

@@davescott5506 The only typical comment here is yours, mate. I'm a Nissan Patrol owner and my comment was a pisstake, as Babeyoulove realised with no problem....🤣🤣

In that situation yes but in other cases flex counts against it.

@@L2SFBCI’d be interested to hear of a situation in which properly balanced flex/articulation ever counts against a vehicle….? The point of flex/articulation is to keep all 4 tyres in contact with the ground. I do not believe there is any situation where it is advantageous to have less tyre contact.

​@@taranis616In previous videos he has shown that it can cause ground clearance issues that cause other vehicles to get hung up where the defender didn't. It's sort of like solid axels vs IFS, it's really depends on the situation. Sold axles can be better for rock crawling and IFS better for desert running ect. So much of it is situation dependent.

@@paulelledge8977 No. That simply doesn’t make sense. Ground clearance doesn’t change as a result of articulation. Any such situation where a lack of articulation causes the body to roll away from a potential obstacle is simply luck, and vanishingly rare

Ground clearance *does* change with flex, in both independent and live axled vehicles. The great the flex, the greater the lower the chassis is to the ground. See Part 1 for an explanation.

In its class yes, it comes both first and last!

Why?

None of them are running MTs. All are on ATs.

It's not great but ok

Give the "electronic bullshit" a try. You'd be amazed at how well it works in greasy conditions where you need to minmise wheelspin and turn. Good luck turning on wet clay with one locker let alone two...a while back I was on the Wrangler JL launch and the then-MD was driving, trying to turn up a 90 corner in the mud. He was twin-locked. Kept understeering. I took the lockers out for him, and he nailed in next time...you could see the BTC doing its thing, not restricting turning. Just one of many examples.

@@L2SFBC lunchbox in the front all day . never had an issue on clay it just makes it easier to turn .