Name: "Persian Song" Artist: Cecil Lytle Album: Words for a Hymn to the Sun (Songs and Rhythms from Asia) Composer: George Ivanovich Gurdjieff / Thomas De Hartmann
That was exactly what I was trying to say. Anything you do to the machine gives some results, it doesnt mean you know what you are doing, that's why i think its so important to have a guide. I had many results over the years myself and this is the conclusion i've reached. And about the stop exercise, anyone who has read Gurdjieff and Ouspensky knows that no one can do it by themselves and that it doesnt mean holding your breath, it is something much more complex.
Nobody, not even G or G-sus, holds The Truth, yet everybody holds truths. It is all within our eyes, not only the ones from the body, but from the soul and the mind. We can all learn from God, and interiorize his Word, like Jesus did.. And we do that not only from the Bible, but from our lives.
Part of an important aspect of the work, is self-observation. You can't worry so much at what people are doing, because more or less you are internal considering about them and in any case you can not do anything about their manifestations -- but you can do something about the functions in you, as to how their manifestations effect you. Saying I did this because of this, that I doing this because they did that, is an effect of identification. Observe yourself, impartially, to your capacity.
Yes you can't lose what you don't have, however, when you do have you can surely LOSE it and one should think before they start anything. Hence: "Blessed is he who has a soul and blessed is he who doesn't have a soul but woe unto him who only has a soul in its conception." But yes, right now, it is better to work then not too. However one must keep in mind the prospect that they should be careful what they wish for.
You don't need to be master to have results. If you were a master you would be the result, you would have done everything -- you would KNOW, in the true sense, in being. Because to know is to know all. Results are for those who are still striving. A master has already arrived. And believe me, Gurdjieff was not a perfect man -- but he went very far, a master in what he brought.
I wish I knew, i am just struggling myself in the absence of someone who has attained something higher. For now just the influence of books and other people that are trying, i wish you good luck
A person can't really do stop exercise by themselves. You need someone that is outside of you to tell you when to stop and when to go. Man wants the least resistance.
Belle, people warn about breathing exercises because your human machine has coime to work in a certain way. When you start practing different breathing methods, you start to change the manner the machine functions naturally. Everything is connected, although in the wrong way, and everything in you is functionings. Although these functions happen outside of your initiative. You can't change one thing without effecting something else. A change in breathing, may effect you when you literally sleep
Yes, Nayma. Any type of work will have results when you tweak with your machine, but these results may not be what one in their bobtailed reason, believes would occur. With someone who knows, you lessen the opportunities to have results that could hinder greater results later on. However, this doesn't mean that having a guide wil mean this will not happen. It depends on your attention. Gurdjieff said his system could create crazies.
If I spoke about what I did experience, in such a comments on youtube, it would be to puff myself up, as if I have achieved something miraculous, at least that is what one "I" of myself thinks. I will not feed the illusion, I have experienced much -- but until everything becomes a constant state, it is as snow. What matters is what becomes permanent in you, the acquiring of Soul-Birth, of that Level of Being. I have experienced what you speak of, and can do so any time.
No -- I would not say Gurdjieff didn't leave any successors... rather the majority of his students only got so far until their efforts turn upon themselves. None of them got to the point where they could truly transmit things in a whole state, without wiseacring. Which is why he wrote those books, for the future, so his system would not be completely loss through obvious trend that was happening. Which is why he closed his schools after his accident and wrote those books.
Belle, the question isn't if I had results. Because I have had more than many results with the conscious labors I have done -- the thing here is that if you are opened to understand just a bit more, maybe you could take what you have exercised and add it into a greater more compassing work. The Stop exercise is to help one remember themselves, but the whole of them -- it is to build, if you will, an artificial self remembering. A 3 centered connection....
The founder can not force inner transformation. If a tree is cut at its root, the whole tree will die. But it takes time for a tree to fully die, even after that, it still remains, in a form, until nature discards it. The teaching, although dying with Gurdjieff, is slowly degenerating. Now, it is possible for something to come alive out of it, but that is another story. While it is in a slow death, much can be taken from it. Schools still exist.
Yes the stop exercise is more than holding breath. Breath work Gurdjieff didn't discuss out in the open, because you must have a certain sufficient amount of knowledge of the working of your organism, to begin to breath work, otherwise, you may do something that will not give the desired results. Gurdjieffs system at some point needs a teacher, because of its uniqueness. However Gurdjieff died, and Gurdjieff said a teaching dies with its founder.. This is very evident in the 4th Way movement.
The thing is you could put your machine into a state of shock and discord, may even injure yourself. There are steps to things. One must take on exercises and methods in keeping with their level of being -- they must work from where they are at and not take on things hat they do not yet understand, unless they are among others who have done these things and know where it goes and what it is about.
It's not that one can't do these on their own, it's best if they do it among an individual who knows. So they can be thorougly educated in the body and know exactly what they are doing and where they are going with this. When you breath differently, you are using the muscles differently, even new muscles that have never been related with your breath. It would be better to try to be conscious of the natural working of the breath -- after a while other things can come, but be careful
Yeah, i know exactly what you mean but it is very hard to just accept that you might not be able to work at all and that even the results you thought you had are not what you expected to be. Gurdjieff used to say that the best thing is that we have nothing to lose anyway. So what is the answer then?
@LarsYenin Truth never fails because Truth is the only reality. A teacher simply brings out Truth into demonstration and manifestation. He does not create it himself. There is no failure, every era has its teachers. Truth remains ONE and eternal. A work never dies.
That's not the stop-exercise, well at least not what is called the "famous" stop exercise. Stop exercise deals with "pausing" everything that you are doing and maintaining that position at the moment someone says stop. So if you were walking up some stairs and someone said STOP! -- YOU HAD TO MAINTAIN THE TENSION IN YOUR BODY OF THAT POSITION, AND FEEL EVERYTHING UNTIL THE PERSON SAYS RELEASE, OR gives the ok to move again. As for breathing, that is holding the breath between the polarities.
Whatever you did, gave you results -- it takes some principles out of the actual exercise, but that exercise is different. I don't see anyone saying they know everything. I see some people, telling you that the stop exercise is different. And you fighting this by saying you have had results with what you did. This doesn't make it the actual exercise. I could explain what is happening, when you hold your breath and why breath work is important (polarity breathing, solar plexus breathing)
@alpidistra ... in fact what I just explained, this happens occurring to Law, the Law of Octaves to be precise. But what you say is not wrong. Gurdjieff was the one who said a teaching dies with him who brought it. Check out In search of the Miraculous to see what I mean.
Breath work is important, so important that G never spoke about it openly -- because you have to have a god deal of real knowledge about your organism, before attempting any breath work. However, about the system, it's sort of a dead one. G system was very dependent on a teacher for practical work. Gurdjieff said a teaching dies when the founder of it dies. It's like a fruit tree which root has died its fruits turn to rot.
@JLeo777 Though a tree may be cut in appearance, spiritually, the tree remains because any idea emanating from the Divine Mind is eternal and cannot be destroyed. Nothing dies, including knowledge and teachings, they may pass from outward appearance, but they remain within. Nothing is ever lost.
@alpidistra This is fine if you believe this. Yes ideas remain, but the idea is without the founder to show what his teachings are, given the multitude that sleep, the teachings will suffer, what Gurdjieff would call "wiseacring". This has happened with every genuine religion on the development of man.Without the teacher and close disciples, it will fall into degeneration. But yes nothing is loss, but when mixed with ordinary life, much depth becomes obscured which was once there.
It's not besides the point, if you understood his aim. Granted that I should not have said successors, although I don't see how one can't have multiple individuals who take up his position -- not as if this has not happened before in history, really what I should not have done was even acknowledge the possibility of succession, in the manner that you are referring. No one could fill the shoes of the one who brings a teaching, you should be aware of this if you have read Gurdjieff. Peace.
Ouspensky certainly was above the level of sleeping humanity. For one thing it shows in his understanding when he exposes the ideas. Did he have the unity of a man number five? Did he have all the qualities it is possible for a man to possess, the way Gurdjieff did?
i still mean to keep reading the 'tales',it's difficult reading-but good exercise for the brain-if nothing else ,even for anyone,i'm sure i don't gotta tell you that! right? it's even on audiobook,i was listening for a time...i need to find that again--i love an audio book!
Hi Belle, I read what you said about the stop exercise, and what you were doing is not it. Actually Gurdjieff statea very clearly that we should not do any breathing exercises on our own as the results could not be predictible, the human machine is fragile. Have you read "Meetings with remarkable men"? Just be careful with what you are practice without any guidance.
CT2507, I am not sure how that represents me not knowing what I am talking about? Do you understand that Gurdjieff had different individuals running schools in different locals? One in Mexico, the other in England, so on and so forth, at one point? Perhaps, rather than focusing on a word, perhaps it would be better to focus on the content.
Eh... he talks about his am in some of his books... You should read life is only real, then when I am and The Harold of coming good. And as for what you said about his oldest students, that is disinformation and probably false memory. Many did not understand him and his tactics -- didn't know what Gurdjieff they would get. However, he wrote about what he wanted to do, why he did what he did, among other things that reflect his striving.
@JLeo777 There is the material world discerned by the so-called five senses and there is the world of infinite Spirit which the body is not cognizant of. In the Spiritual world, all things are expressed perfectly and harmoniously in eternity. A teaching is simply a glimpse into this world and though things may appear to the body to degenerate, all in fact remains intact. We must not be discouraged by what we see with the eyes.
Belle, I am not sure why it appears as though you get bothered that people say to you, that this is not it. This is identification, you would do well see yourself and feel what is invoked in you.. You said self honesty was very important, right? Why not have that self honesty now? Why not reevaluate what is being said, maybe you do have terms mixed up? Where is the humility? The sincerity? A lot can be experienced with breath work. Stop exercise is different. Read ISOM again.
@supralee an ordinary man won't tell good from evil. an ordinary trainee won't tell good from better to worst case scenario's best friends without within. lies? wisdom??quiz doom??? (t)ask force(d)... eyes don't judge . eye do see(d) you (used to be) in me (know how don't you know why either :) armed with is harmed by an empty gun ;-)
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