clip from the year old dev stream • ULTRAKILL Developer Co... this can be considered lazy content but im out of ideas. (btw "under the mayo" this is directed towards you) might've gotten the captions wrong #ultrakill
You just using different guns to fill the freshness up again + it will be boring and slow if you using one gun through the whole game (UnderTheMayo is example of this) + some guns are having cooldown, so you will use different guns just to survive/not wait for blood
@@mixednarwhala youtuber that made a pretty imfamous video saying why he thinks ultrakills style system and by extention overall gqmeplay is objectively flawed or something simmilar i dont remember very clearly anymore
@@mixednarwhal szkraft220 basically summarized it. Mayo is a RU-vidr known for reviewing DooM Eternal (Hugo Martin the, Game director of Doom Eternal even noticed him) Since Hugo noticed him, he believes to be an excellent Game Designer. To add some points there, Mayo also mentioned that you can play Ultrakill with the Standard Piercer and nothing else, since you have infinite ammo. He said that the infinite ammo style of Ultrakill is heavily flawed and needs to be replaced with traditional ammo pick ups. Because of that, the mayo% run exists, where you play the entire game with the Standard Piercer and nothing else. tldr; he's full of shit and deserves no attention
From my experience: Well, yes AND no. It heavily depends on how you implement ammo(just like 99% of mechanics) In some games it's just a way to make you do something (example: literally doom) or a balancing element to not make you too op. Can't bring up the game because it's niche, but let's just say that if you could've infinitely shoot without needing to go buy ammo, you'd be nearly unstoppable no matter what. (Near instant reload + insane heal from enemies) However also from my experience, disabling ammo in some games made them way funnier. So yeah, it's 50/50
In doom’s case, it’s to make you not blow all your load in one go and force you to do stylish weapon combos. It’s also not too restricting because you can use your chainsaw a lot. Strikes that perfect balance.
Some games use ammo to force the players to be smarter with what they use. Some use it to prevent the more powerful guns from being used constantly. Some use it to encourage exploration and scavenging. Whereas most military shooters just use ammo because it's realistic. An ammo system that you actually have to worry about and pay attention to doesn't instantly mean the game is slow paced. A good example other than the obvious one (DOOM Eternal) would be The Last of Us 2, where despite the health system being quite punishing if you are careless and ammo being quite scarce in higher difficulty, if you decide to go running and gunning, the game just works better and is way more fun than stealth surprisingly.
It can also be a smart choice for fast paced multiplayer shooters imo, theoretically it can bring a lot of benefits, like forcing player to move around the map, and actually aim their shots instead of just getting kills by spraying randomly. Bottomless mags can be fun in custom games while goofing around with your friends, but a lot of games would be unplayable if people just held down the trigger without using their brain. I think you could make it work, but youd need to build the game for that
The fact that he also made lores for infinite ammo mechanics is so cool. Shotguns shoot heats that generate from the cores. Pistols have self recharge batteries and stuff like that.
@@nonymouswisp8176 maybe its hell bringing him back to life because it was mentioned at the end of the ultrakill arg that hell was sentient and powerful asf
something i like about ultrakill that makes it stand out from other games is that it doesnt fight against the player, it gives them all these tools and infinite resources because its main goal is for the player to have fun and do whatever their bloodthirsty instincts wants them to do
" is that it doesnt fight against the player" It does. It just picks what it does depending on its goals. Hakita has nerfed weapons, has removed effective comboes, has purposefully made effective strategies unviable. and has generally designed the game in such a way to present a challenge, because if you could bypass all the challenge the cool stuff loses its meaning. Most games fight you to some degree - thats what games them interesting. Friction is not a bad thing and just cause this game opts to not implement sources of friction you would expect does not mean other games implementing it is to their detriment as some extra unnecessary feature.
What do you mean this is the most fun cock an ball torture I've ever had because like you said it's not bullshit or cheapand gives you the tools to have fun, when I die i know instantly why. I might whine about it but it's more so against my ability to play the game rather than the expectation the game has of the player
@@purge2202 Yep. It's sad that the good game design of Ultrakill is getting boiled down to "it let's you play how you want". It doesn't even do that. Low on health? You have to get close to enemies to heal. The game doesn't let you run away and hide, or look for a health pickup, or dodge for long enough. It forces you to play in a certain way. And it does it well.
@@manly.mcbeefington ohhh a fist weapon like Beowulf or balrog but with a twist! instead of slow, powerful attacks, the Minos weapon emphasizes quick karate chops and kicks, with homing snakes Sisyphus Beard
@@sedrie34 remember it loud and clear, during minos's corpse fight after he discoveres that he can parry the punches, my retinas are fully burnt, my brain has been hijacked by his videos help
Underthemayo when a dev forces a playstyle that encourages you to have fun and be flashy instead of min maxing as if you were playing nightmare mode on doom
Not to mention that in the weapon terminal entries, it even mentions for the revolver that it will take weeks/months of constant shooting for it to "run out of ammo," so even the game has reasons as to why it's that way.
And to think when you eventually run out, the gun doesn't even use bullets and uses tiny pieces of metal that are being launched at incredible high speeds. So finding ammo is as easy as it can get. It's hilarious how comically efficient the revolver in canon. The game also describes the shotgun's ability to shoot concentrated heat as "truly infinite". So ye, technology in Ultrakill is quite insane.
@gibleyman If a sentient, self-operating war robot that uses the blood of its enemies as fuel is possible, then so can weapons that have near infinite ammo is as well. It's honestly great in the long run that it's not just "Oh, ammo is infinite because pure action," but instead has some form of lore as to why it is for those that _are_ "infinite."
@@MaxDoesThings Ye. It's almost overwhelming how much lore explanation this game has for so many things that most other games would just pass on by saying "oh it's for gameplay reasons". Like, the fukin style meter has an in-universe explanation and so does the cybergrind mode. There's also a (tho not confirmed) possible explanation for the low poly graphics.
@@gibleyman the lore explanation for the low poly graphics is that the machines recreate what they see on a version that doesn't cost as much on performance, the only exception i know would be the sentries, which would need to see the world just like us to have a high accuracy.
Having infinite ammo is not an inherently bad design strategy. To use Hakita’s example of DMC, in that game sticking to one weapon is already punished through the style meter become duller when you don’t swap weapons, and having a low style meter rewards you with less experience, and having less experience means you have less upgrades, which means you have a more difficult time completing the game. Before the new hard damage change, this same system could not be applied to Ultrakill. Sticking to one weapon did damage your style meter, but the style meter didn’t do anything besides give you a high score at the end of the level and the extra experience you got wasn’t really anything to write home about as just about anyone could afford all the weapon variations while still having poor style. It’s in this scenario that having infinite ammo can be a problem as you now have little incentive to ever swap from one weapon to the next, and thus a boring playstyle is permitted to be played in a game focused around playing stylishly. The two methods of correcting this issue would be to either: a.) make the style meter provide a greater extrinsic reason to be focused upon b.) implement an ammo management system that forces players to swap weapons when they run out of ammo. Or c.) ramp the game's difficulty up so that sticking to one weapon will result in the death of the player. It would seem with the Act 2 update, Options A and C were chosen. This is all Under The Mayo was trying to communicate as he believes the best games are the ones that make the most “efficient” way to play, the most fun and stylish way to play.
@@clichedan7812 the entire argument is pointless in the first place. mayo played the equivalent of a games tutorial and was wondering why it wasnt super hard, then got stuck the second a boss appeared that required the knowledge and skills that tutorial would give you. the style meter does not need to have gameplay value, if you want to try and beat the game with only one weapon thats an entirely valid choice. its called a self imposed challenge, and you can remove all other weapons to avoid losing freshness on your one weapon. players dont need numerical stat incentive to swap weapons, the faster kill time and damage output is already enough. ive watched mayo play, and he chose to make act 1 unfun for himself. where i was overpump shotgun blast i framing into shotgun swapping to kill malicious heads in under a second, mayo was moving around in a big circle pressing left click for 10 minutes on each stage. no, the style meter change had nothing to do with mayos input, it wasnt even based on the style meter. it was to compensate for the whiplash nerf which causes hard damage. now you can use whiplash more often with less risk if you are playing with high style. and saying difficulty was chosen as a solution in act 2 is just misleading. act 2 was always going to be harder than act 1, and act 3 will be more so.
@@jynxed66six54 “the entire argument is pointless in the first place. mayo played the equivalent of a games tutorial and was wondering why it wasnt super hard, then got stuck the second a boss appeared that required the knowledge and skills that tutorial would give you. “ So by your own omission, Ultrakill’s tutorial is bad as Mayo managed to get through the entire thing easily and didn’t learn anything required to actually beat V2. “the style meter does not need to have gameplay value, if you want to try and beat the game with only one weapon thats an entirely valid choice. its called a self imposed challenge, and you can remove all other weapons to avoid losing freshness on your one weapon. “ The problem here is that in order to impose a challenge upon yourself, you need to actually do something that you know is going to make the experience harder. Mayo went into the game with the goal of trying to beat it and he found that a strategy that worked well towards accomplishing this goal was just using the pistol. You can’t really say he imposed a challenge upon himself because the game never made his playstyle a challenge until V2 and Act 2. “players don't need numerical stat incentive to swap weapons, the faster kill time and damage output is already enough.” What exactly is a “Numerical Stat Incentive” because faster kill time and damage output sure sound like one. “i've watched mayo play, and he chose to make act 1 unfun for himself. where i was overpump shotgun blast i framing into shotgun swapping to kill malicious heads in under a second, mayo was moving around in a big circle pressing left click for 10 minutes on each stage. “ For starters, you have no real evidence that Mayo did this intentionally. Seriously, can you peer inside his mind or something? He gains literally nothing going into Ultrakill with a bad attitude. Second of all, why exactly should he play the way you described? I saw the same footage as you and he manages to kill a malicious face in around 6 seconds very easily with just a single charge shot, heavy punch, and a few shots from the pistol. Sure, it takes longer, but he doesn’t have to swap to a different weapon, charge up a blast, perfectly time a dodge, then perform another swap to do it. There’s no reason to aim for high style, and you don’t get reward for being fast, so why should he put in all that work to do what you do? Because it’s fun? Sure, but why is the fun way to play the harder way to play? “no, the style meter change had nothing to do with mayos input, it wasnt even based on the style meter. I” Neither I nor Mayo claimed it was, we are just saying that it is a solution to the problem of the style meter not being tied to combat. “and saying difficulty was chosen as a solution in act 2 is just misleading. act 2 was always going to be harder than act 1, and act 3 will be more so.” My comment wasn’t meant to prescribe meaning to Hakita’s balance choices, It was just there to explain what Mayo’s problems with the game were and how Act 2 solved them.
hakita's words speak to me, when i was a kid playing the half life games i would be extremely stingy with all my resources, loading saves if i accidentally wasted health or ammo, which often led to me breaking open ammo crates but getting nothing from them since i was already full on everything.
This reminds me about DMC 5 with nero. Nero's kit is fun but because his devil breakers were a one time use I was constantly afraid of running out of them. It wasn´t that fun and made the character feel a bit frustrating.
@@protohorizon5215 same, i really dont feel like calculating my precise movesets (because i actually wanna have fun playing the game) for the rest of the level, nor did i feel like cheating and getting infinite DBs, so i mostly used like, everything else besides the DBs which sucks.
The breakers are fine, especially when you have an excess of them and red orbs on NG+, but having to destroy them to switch between breakers really negated my desire to go from say, Overture to Tomboy
who would win: a blood thirsty machine with infinite ammo and the ability to parry everything a stupid angry demon slayer man with limited ammo EDIT: from a lore pov, either doomguy would win or it would be a never ending fight thanks to v1 parries regaining health and style and doomguy moving at the speed of light
@@friendlyneighborhoodcrusad4242 psst, every projectile in ultrakill is parryable, the blue flashes are for melee attacks or attacks with poorly telegraphed animations. the only truly non-parryable attacks are things like malicious face laser beam or mindflayer laser beam or certain boss melees
@@friendlyneighborhoodcrusad4242 we can say most of unparriable attacks are Precision Bolt Shot. : Because Hitscan. (Probably maybe...?) Default Ballista shot : because Hitscan. Microwave Beam : Like the Streetcleaner flamethrower but it practically freezes v1 in his place. Heat blast : Basically knuckleblaster Blast. not sure if a shockwave is parriable. Being bashed with a chaingun shield : its a funny thought tbh. Mobile turret : V1 cant parry v2's nailgun
I love how he mentioned Dante, who actually had custom made guns so he could just keep firing massive amounts of bullets without needing to reload much at all.
I find this very incredible that the entire fanbase already knew that, there is such a specific connection between creator and players in this game it's insane.
Ammo system works well on slower, more tactical games were you spend half the time thinking and the other half shooting or also in standard shooters. But in games that are about going all out, shoot as much as you can in the most absurd ways and play in the coolest way possible, a ammo system would simply feel like getting hit by a brick while skating
This is exactly why i couldnt get into Doom Eternal, id get a decent chain going and then smack face first into a giant wall saying "No ammo" Doom 2016 though i loved, one of the reasons being because it balances an ammo system incentivizing switching weapons with allowing you to play however you wanted as long as you were aggressive
The idea for reloads in the first place was to prevent spamming. But for a game like ULTRAKILL that's exclusively PvE, it has no need for it. It was only to prevent players from disallowing others to make a push to them by spamming a hallway or wherever tight spot they need to cross. That's why in Quake Champions the grenade launcher was changed to have a delay so players can cross if they time it right.
Hakita made wise choice with inf. ammo, just look at bulletstorm, very similar to Ultrakill, but you don't have limitless ammo, so you don't want to experiment with mechanics
meanwhile Under the Mayo: Wah this game is bad because it doesn't force me to use every single weapon so im only going to use the base revolver and say the game is bad.
What's funny is, to make a point, someone played Doom Eternal and used only the auto-shotgun until he got to the assault rifle and then ONLY used the assault rifle and killed the Doom Hunter... on Ultra Violence
Yup. You know how it is in Serious Sam games in later levels it's less about "can I beat this encounter" and more about "can I beat this encounter without using too much of the good ammo"
On more technical terms, resource management in something like a survival horror or open exploration game is more about organization, environmental knowledge, strategy, and then optimization. Ultrakill skips the first three and doesn't care about what you feel like doing as long as you're alive.
It's funny how weapon durability and ammo can affect games like that. In ultrakill, it would decentivize experimentation because the combat is so deep and emergent. In a game like breath of the wild, however, the weapon combat is shallow and a very reliable source of damage. Since your most reliable form of damage is limited, you are encouraged to experiment by using the physics engine and environment as an avenue for combat when you can.
@@manly.mcbeefington sure, but the shity-childish non-catsup "uses" they piercer cuz has no brain. Ppl who beat the game parrying it's way beyond mayo's limits.
completely average player here, i am not very talented at this game but i manage, and i have p-ranked P-1 with only the revolver before for fun, if i can do it so can you :]
the main thing which I think is at the core of Mayo V ultrakill is that Ultrakill expects the player to want to do cool things, where as Mayo thinks that players wont try anything unless they are forced into it (debatably this is the core difference between doom eternal and ultrakill as well). Mayo used the charged pistol only because, in their mind, because they where never forced to use something different there is no reason why they would. this is ignoring that players will almost always immediately try something out *anyway*, and that ultrakill structures its unlocks around the idea that the base version of the gun you get (so like the charge pistol, the Core Eject shotgun, etc) are the easiest to understand to new players, and unlocks are more complicated but are inherently cool. Players will try out stuff when they get it, regardless of if they are "forced" into trying it, and especially in ultakill players are given *enough* to figure out pretty much all of the hidden interactions. easiest example: Punching the shotgun pellets. the game explicitly teaches you parrying, so even if its only occasionally players know this is a mechnic in the game and will attempt it. eventually, by sheet accident, its likley an average player will be using the shotgun, shoot it and go to parry at the same time. by "accident", they will discover this interaction, and then start to wonder what else they can do. Similarly, players can easily realise that, if the pistol can shoot a coin to get a ricochet what else can? Ultrakill is about naturally encouraging discovery of item interactions by players. yeah, sure, some stuff like rocket surfing, Coin parrying, etc, is the kind of thing people are unlikley to discover on their own... but really most of ultrakills core combos can be discovered just through playing the game, and players will discover them because they are inherently encouraged to try new stuff.
Mayonnaise and his fan base have never heard about fun or... human nature. It's literally inherent in people to experiment and have fun. I can't tell you how many times I've picked up an item in like... Borderlands, and went "What does this do?" And then decided to use it over one of my stronger guns because I liked what it did.
ULTRAKILL is like DOOM in a lot of ways. Such as when you kill a bunch of enemies or get past a challenge, you feel like a god and are in a power trip. I feel like if Doom automatically had infinite ammo it would be the same issue as ULTRAKILL if it had ammo. You feel less cool when you don't have one of the main things meant to challenge you.
So there are 2 choices to make people not use the same weapons: Limited ammo but you chainsaw enemies in incredibly violent ways to get ammo back OR Infinite ammo but the style system forces you to switch if you want a good rank, making you do cool sh!t
Thats a good choice not that itd be bad to have ammo management just add a workoround for it that players can use(doom eternal did that which is why it works there)
As a half life 1 enjoyer and a person that is bad at enjoying half life 1 because i play it like a fucking survival horror game with limited ammo quickloading after every misused shot, yeah infinite ammo is cool and i should just learn to enjoy video games
I figured the infinite ammo choice was to keep combat as fast paced as possible. The weapon's abilities having cooldowns also makes sense. So you have to switch to another while it's in cooldowns to make you use the other weapons.
He do be right. When I played Doom Eternal for the first time I was playing as efficiently as I could without being too conservative about my ammo. It was until I was bored and decided to play like those crazy ass clip montages that I went "Fuck it we ball" and didn't care about ammo
@@manly.mcbeefington Yeah, I saw his videos on it. He also argued for ammo being linked to weapon variety, which is true, but going in-depth of the pros ans cons is ignoring the big picture of what ultrakill is
If someone wants weapon variety they can just use more than one weapon. Variety enjoyers can do cool swaps and high damage combos if they want. Adding ammo just punishes mono play style forcing everyone to do variety. Ammo only has negatives when it comes to gameplay here. Ammo is fine in Tactical shooters, but anything else it's not.
Almost like having stupid takes makes people clown on you. If his take weren't "Game bad because I don't like this mechanic" people wouldn't still be dunking on him.
Revolver: infinite ammo due to bullets literally being microscopic pieces of metal scraped off the barrel and fired with an unbelievable velocity as a result of the 6 batteries that supercharge each shot
I can't tell you how annoying it is to walk over a box of 50 bullets, fire off one round, and waste the other 49 rounds in that box. Turns ammo pickups into quickload landmines.
Let's all agree Having ammo in Ultrakill is like having limited power in FNaF 3 It's like having health in Pizza Tower It's like having a point system for combats in Sonic Frontiers (everytime you use a skill, it will reduce points, it would ruin the game heavily)
