Has HEMA changed too much? 

Talking by experience, even the most horrible technique is represented in a manual somewhere, from one handed cuts by the pommel to the leg, to zwerch opted to anything. Techniques are all there, the difference to me is barely relevant, it’s honestly hard to define what is “martial” and what is “sporty” in my understanding, while talking about actions and motions. It’s more the context of application of said techniques and the objective that a ruleset brings with it.

Team BEMA. Still training in the Backyard only 🤓

You are 100% right

100% this. Most of the peoples I know who are well ranked HEMA fighters would just shake their heads at this statement. It's just for dumb debates on the internet. Personally, I find that making the concepts of sources work in sparring or tournaments is the best rewarding thing of my practice.

@@tatumergo3931 important note, those crazy germans in the woods sucked. There is nothing magical about the threat of death or harm that transforms something into the truth

@@tatumergo3931 well, it depends on the sources, but some are quite clear. They describe the timing of the actions, the actions themselves and their effects. You can usually see by yourself if you perform the action correctly.

I don't think it's fair to dismiss the "history vs. sport" controversy as just a "perceived dichotomy." All rule-sets, no matter how complicated or clever, have "loopholes" that will either reward or fail to punish undesirable behavior, and for HEMA, that will inevitably encourage non-historical/combat-ineffective practices, though they may be subtle. Schola Gladiatoria has a few videos on this topic that I found quite eye-opening, particularly about the nuance and difficulties of rule-set design. Having said that, Matt's opinion on tournaments seems to be "in favor of but with concerns," and I personally fail to see how you could reasonably argue that they aren't at least _potentially_ beneficial to HEMA's historicity, as they make an excellent vehicle for exchanging information, introducing/evaluating fresh perspectives, and preventing individual groups from turning into isolated echo chambers of error.

Believe me, everything helps and everything doesn’t help at the same time. As much as we vary the environment of training and the means, adding historical footwear, cut static targets etc (which I did and do every now and then today) the result is always mainly related to our main test ground (simulation of a fight) as it has been back then. Even back then, they had limits in such kind of practice by the way, that’s also why fencing changed sometimes!

@@FedericoMalagutti Of course. Training is always missing factors involved in real violence; cutting test materials and sparring without intent to harm the other person is different cutting with intent to seriously injure or kill. The best training can ever do is train for as many of the factors as possible, which is never all of them.

That's the correct spirit! Very good

I personally find the sparring aspect of great importance. I'm also just over a year into HEMA, and I find that Kenjutsu and the Japanese weapon arts lack the dynamic nature of sparring. It is so easy to fight an imaginary opponent: The air doesn't surprise you. Battle-sense, or just the knack of reading another opponent, is something that no amount of solo-drilling or even partner drilling can really accomplish.

​@@spicketspaghet7773you could probably use kendo as a substitute for kenjutsu sparring it might not be the exact same thing but it might work.

Ideally yes

How cool! I hope it doesn’t bother you is there btw, I needed some shoots and when I knew who made it I asked, otherwise I just stole them ghghgh ;-)

@@FedericoMalagutti Oh this is perfectly okay with me! Actually I'm a bit overwhelmed at the moment, because this was something I really really didn't expect to happen. So, I don't mind at all no. 😁

Funny at 0:00 the guy in the red is my instructor

I agree!

You are welcome!!

Well said John, well said. Nice work, keep it up!

@@FedericoMalagutti thanks, sir :) Imagine in 200 years people are quoting Norwood, Malagutti, Farrell, and Fabian sources instead of Lichtenauer, Mair, Meyer, and Kal. What we do today is going to matter for the tradition down the road.

I wish you a safe and fast recovery!

Ideally yes, the only problem is having enough actual sword fights so to have the bunch of informations needed to structure training so to win real swordfighting, even in that case, the goal has to be kept alive (as I explain in the video) so that the goal of sparring keeps being winning a fight and not winning the sparring itself, which is a natural adaptation. So yeah, ideally yes

Thanks!

Definitely, I agree!

Thanks!

For Longsword: Peter Von Danzig Fiore de’ Liberi Sigmund Ringeck

Thanks!

Kendo is what it is also because a choice has been made (with relates well to Japanese culture in martial regards) to keep it as it was (talking about kendo itself) for the most part. So it will be similar but different, as well as similar but different from MOF and similar but different to any other weapon based martial art or combat sport. Unironically, old style HEMA never existed, and in a sense, even the fencing practiced by the ancient masters in their sales wasn’t “the real HEMA” we think of, as it was a safe approximation of combat with their own specific tools. So yeah, it’s complex!

This isn't true for every club though. E.g. at mine we look directly at the manuals and are encouraged to learn directly from them. Yes people show up just to learn the interpretation the instructors teach, but you also have people like myself and others who engage directly with the instructors, the manuals, and modify the taught interpretations if we figure out a better/more accurate/more historical explanation.

Pure autism "H-he didn't read the manual!!"

You are welcome, nice background you have there!!! I wish you a full recovery and to find the best training environment possible!

@@FedericoMalagutti Thank you! I hope your message reaches out to the deserved public. Fare well 👊

Agreed!

I think its the most crucial point to understand in hema that it is historical

Yes, I’ve been there five times, from 2013 to 2016. Roland has been a great influence in my early fencing career, and while we took different paths, I have huge respect for him and I consider him a friend. At some point I’ll be back in Berlin

Of course, the worst is when those TOs disallow or severely limit wrestling without penalizing people for trying to take your head off with zornhaus. There’s wrestling everywhere in the treatises, but many of the tournament focused clubs and schools don’t cover it at all. When they do, it’s usually very minor. Shout out to Cymbrogi School of WMA in Moore, Oklahoma as an outlier by the way.

Thanks ;-)

Ahaha, thanks!

Thanks!

If by gold you mean a rotting corpse, then yes i totally agree

I’ve practiced for four years without gear, only leather gloves, sometimes with the addition of a mask only. It creates more problems than the ones it solves.

Thanks ;-)

I think that both statements are true for both practices. Box is arguably a very effective fighting style even out of the ring

I’m definitely of the same idea!

Well! Athleticism is an important prerequisite for any kind of fighter. Anyway, what brings afterblows and doubles can be found in many different motivations, but the most important one are psychological (excitement, fear) and related to the ruleset. If the second is an artifact, the first one is even more real in a duel, that’s why double kills always existed.

@@FedericoMalagutti I'm not at all meaning to say athleticism is bad, just that an over reliance on it is. And yes I agree what you say about doubles too, I certainly don't think they are all bad and I know they are a reality of fencing that HEMA didn't create. I guess to put my thoughts another way, is that I see many doubles being caused by poor tactits fueled by this reliance on athleticism. For attacking attacking low when the oppoents blade is in presence, blind counter attacks that try to get around and, action instead of controlling it, leaving binds to snipe and immediately getting skewered. This is just my observation, but I think people fence best outside of tournaments.

Agreed, many interesting things here and there to pick from

Modern fencing is the way it is bc it chose a sportive path in general. That is what sport fencing will always end up as. The only issue the FIE has is no good cutting discipline, something they know and have been working for decades to fix

Well, almost every combat sport has sparring without points, while the majority, almost every martial art doesn’t have sources to pick from, if not direct explanations from the instructor which theoretically came from the previous and so on. But long story short, I just give name to things. I could say that it’s none, or it’s both or whatever, but my explanation is not to give the favorite name to something, it’s basically a way to describe a process. This process which I describe is more topical in what people call combat sports rather than martial arts. MMA is a combat sport, but no one would argue that its actions can be useful in other combat environments, or can be found in other training environments which defines themselves as Martial Arts. Does this makes MMA a martial art? This is actually a rhetorical question because the answer isn’t clear. The reality is that both martial arts and combat sports are sports, the first tend to have lower levels of competitiveness and athleticism compared to the second, and this makes this environments less or more faster in their evolution process based on needs. Because the needs appear and change faster the more the environment is competitive in nature (which is what happens in war too). By living both the environment for years (Ju Jutsu, Jo Do, Aikido, Boxing, Muay Thai and all the possible flavors of HEMA) I noticed that every environment changes. Even my Ju Jutsu instructor which always said “he was teaching the art of samurai bla bla hundreds years old” changed some leverage every now and then. Based at n doubt? Observation? Comparison with others? Who knows! Martial Arts, the more I move forward, are harder and harder to define. What defines them? Function? Well that’s most of the times isn’t the case. History? Well, yes, but they rarely tend to be the same after only a couple decades. Cultural Heritage? Well this is probably the only thing which really defines certain martial arts. What’s a combat sport to me is quite clear instead. So that’s how my reasoning come from. Anyway, that’s only my pov.

@@FedericoMalagutti fair enough, and good explanation! I struggle with labels myself and mostly find them annoying haha

@@corrugatedcavalier5266 agreed

Well, yes

…Whichis the formalization of sparring. You would be surprised of how many Martial Arts and Combat Sport I’ve practiced in the last 12 years, I’m not anyway representing every single environment existed or existing in the video, I explain a process and I (as I state in the video) express my view about the real line which divides combat sports and martial arts

I think that you are onto something but you are missing a lot of how the meta goes. Due to my quite long experience I can tell you that any action that starts with the point forward has a much higher success rate at beginner and intermediate levels. And thrust are still extremely dangerous and realistic. I agree that cuts like those can be weak and a bit unrealistic, but I usually ascribe it to poore technique rather than intentional "touching". Most experienced fencers hit really hard with cuts. Maybe without perfect technique, but enough to stop your action if you are hit. Now, consider that many people that start with a forward stance tend to stay in this comfort zone for their whole careers, even when they get more experienced. That is something I don't like and I made it my mission to punish them for it. There is also to consider that the historical context in which all the guards and techniques were developed is hard to recreate. Different equipment, different rules (even different from the old training rules they used, see Manciolino), but especially a different mindset, made of more showing off, more veterans from war, people who trained on horseback, hardcore last blood duelists, ignorant fencers who never had a master, tavern brawls, etc... So should I convince someone to train really hard at some technique that will be extremely hard to pull off in the current meta only to see them get destroyed in every sparring session or tournament? I am not sure. You have to strike a balance and let them decide what to aim for. Worst case scenario, they become a good sparring dummy for your advanced techniques. Cos if you force them into stuff that doesn't work, you risk having them leave or become a mediocre fencer that does random ineffective stuff and is useless even as a sparring partner

@@Manweor i understand and thank you for your answer... sadly I don't have much experience in sparring... I only sparred a few times with synthetic swords but I have a fair experience in sword cutting ( I have been training every week for 2 years now in cutting practce water bottles and fruit ) where I applied the stances, steps and cuts and I use the advancing step, the passing step, thr gsthering step and the triangle step but when comparing this to a lot of sparring videos I see on youtube almost nobody is using the passing step... and I ask myself how come ? To not get out of their confort zone ? I get that you can be more exposed when usung the passing step in sparring weather when sparring with sideswords or logswords ( you never use it with saber or rapier I know but I mean excluding those ) but I think there still is a reason it was invented and there are still advantages you can have using it for instance you can generate a lot more power and have more reach when making a mandritto squalenbrato using the passing step. So if it is not to much to ask could you explain to me please why the passing step is not used almost at all in sparring and in competitions ? I apolagise for my lack of experience... but there but a few hema gyms in my country ( Romania ) and I learned what I could off the internet.

@@alinvid6098 tons of people use passing steps. I think you're missing a lot of fencers and styles? Every club I've been to cares about hit quality and edge alignment. In my local tournament scene you don't score if you hit flat. And many people practice cutting. When your opponent is similar to you in skill level though, fencing is hard. In the world cup the players are better but the games don't have higher scores on average. It's hard to get really good hits when the other person is pushing you to your limit.

@@cosc_HEMA thank you for your answers 🙂 yup I am missing a lot... 😔 cause the nearest Hema club here in Romania where I am from is in it's capital Bucharest witch is 600 kilometers away from me si trainung there is not an option for me... I own 2 battle ready swords and I train with them un cutting practice... currently I bought 2 synthetic swords too but I only got to train witht them once with a friend. I know strikes using the flats are not counted as points but I think a correct simulated cut would ve to draw the edge a little on the body of your opponent on the portion that you are "cutting" on like a real cut would be cause when cutting plastic water bottles I noticed that if you don't do the cutting motion with proper edge alignment you don't cut you just hit thr water bottle even if you lamd with the edge... I have seen a lot of fencers do that im videos not draw their cuts just hit with the edge... And If we are tslking about famous fencers then no I don't know many names... only Martin Fabian and Ilkka Otto

@@alinvid6098 yeah passing step is super popular. Most people dont use passing step on their first approach as passing step has to be long enough to actually pass, so it is harder to control distance (which is EXTREMELY important in actual fight/sparring as any fighter would tell you, be it sword fighter, mma one or boxer). But they are super popular in ripostes, beat parries, or redoublement. I dont think you can attend a tournament and not just see a huge numbers of combos like thrust/feint thrust that gets parried, followed by the passing step by the person that did the thrust, changing the line of attack with a zwerch or unterhau, and using the distance gained by the passing step to close of the opponents line of attack, basically bodyblocking the other persons arms

lol no, HEMA is too decentralised and too unsafe to replace fencing. MMA hasnt even replaced boxing yet, boxing money is still way bigger, and MMA is a far more centralised community that doesnt need to worry as much about safety (its effectively allowed to be kept unsafe) and all the different variations of MA in it a mixed togetehr within a common ruleset, allowing for mass aprticipation. HEMA does not, and likely will not, have these elements in their favour.

@@bigmoz9900 I'm seeing steady drop in Olympic fencing membership and growth in Hema. Long term it just doesn't look good.

@@mharm734 That just not true globally. My uni club has increased by %100 year on year for ages. By the numbers, fencings growing pretty much universally across the anglosphere, steady in Europe and explosing in Asia. Your anecdotal experience is irrelevant to the fact that even the international comps *grew* during covid. In specific areas where there arent strong clubs and a lot of it is social, the modern fencing scene might have suffered. But those areas are outliers to the general trend which vearies from holding steady in europe, to growth in the anglosphere, to explosion in Asia and South America.

@@bigmoz9900 some divisions in the US had an 85% membership decline. Locally multiple clubs closed including one I was assistant coach at and many fencers coaches directors etc went away for good. I can't speak to Europe of course I'm in the US. As this happened multiple Hema clubs opened and are getting packed and there is strong growth in tournament size as the Olympic fencing tourneys shrink and offer less ratings opportunities.

@@mharm734 cool. Yet nationally, US fencing has increased membership. USA is more of a prime market in hema due to having more of a violence fetish than most of the world anyway (while again, still growing in members), but regardless the fact of the matter is HEMA has none of the fundamental mechanisms required to overtake modern fencing at a systemic level (not inherently, it just hasnt developed them and kinda doesnt want to for decent reasons). The USA is the best market for HEMA (you might think Europe but they have nowhere near as much in the way of cultural insecurities), and the reality is its still not eating into modern fencing. You are out and out wrong, sorry.

Sparring transforms a martial art into combat sport if there’s no other application of the fighting trained besides sparring itself (AKA Competitions) Notice that this doesn’t happens always but most of the times yes.

If you don’t focus on winning how can you pressure test a technique?

@FedericoMalagutti you do the technique against some who doesn't want you to land a blow and afterwards look into why it did or didn't work. The point is you both try to hit each other of course...but the end goal isn't who hit or not. It's looking at WHY.

@@ColdNapalm42 to me sparring is a fight simulation. What you suggest is a very specific way to approach sparring, useful to try new technical ideas, which represents like 5-10% of the sparring I usually do.

@@FedericoMalagutti well you can do this approach in free spar as well. Do that match and look at why things went the way they went.

It always happens, everytime people try to reinvent fencing it turns out fencing is how it is for good reason

the only time a hema club will give you shit is if you are actively bigoted, i fight in multiple clubs in the midwest and i used to fight in the deep south, neither of which are very welcoming towards people different then themselves. you obviously have your own issues to deal with, but quite literally all people are asking of you is to not be an asshole :| this comment is extremely telling

@@seventhgnome5375 Wow, what wonderful clubs you have discovered! I am jealous of you, truly. What is truly telling here is that you consider a distaste for political activists attempting to control a blossoming sport to be a personal issue, and attempt to characterize me as "an asshole". Do you see how you, my friend, are actually the bigot? You have made a terrible assertion based on your preconceived notions. I have sad news for you as well, your bourgeois lifestyle will soon be over and your racial control will end. Sad to see, I'm sure. I wish you best of luck when you have to face the consequences of your hatred.