Have Joe and Cam Hanes RUINED ELK HUNTING? 

I think onx has more of an effect than Joe and Cam on social media. Years ago people were afraid of getting lost in the backcountry, now they have a way out. When I started elk hunting the backcountry the only option were topo maps. Big difference!

I definitely feel like I am one of the guys whose life has been saved by hunting. Prior to getting into it I did not have anything I was passionate about in my life. I had a "good career", a car, a house, and some hobbies but nothing pushing me to excel in any aspect of my life. I was content to go through the motions each day and spend my free time playing video games or wasting time on the internet. My Dad is a life long hunter and he took me on a lot of hunting trips as a kid. I killed my first Mule Deer with him, and almost shot a Bull Elk. But over all, I was just along for the ride and was never really interested in it. As a young kid I found driving around and glassing to be boring, the hiking to be physically difficult, and the cold conditions uncomfortable. Fast forward to 6 years ago I started accompanying my Dad on Elk hunts and I harvested my first elk, a young cow. While the experience was memorable, I still wasn't invested in hunting. I was there just to spend time with my Dad. The year or so after that hunt I started watching Meat Eater on the recommendation of a friend. Rinella articulated a perspective on hunting and showed a passion for the sport in a way that my Dad was just not able to. He has always been a man of few words and would always say that he hunted to put food on the table for the family. But the more I watched hunting videos and listened to other men explain their whys for hunting I started to see that my Dad's brief explanation was not the full picture. Needing meat didn't explain why he went to Alaska in the early 90s to hunt Bear, Moose and Caribou. Why he spent 30 days scouting and hunting for a Ram above Aspen. Or why he had been an ultramarathon runner. The more I learned about hunting and what it took to be successful, the more I learned about my Dad and the more I developed a new found admiration for him. At his peak in the mid 90s he was doing what Cam does now, running Pike's Peak or Leadville in the summer and hunting sheep, goats, or elk in the fall. Coming to this new perspective on my Dad made me want to go on my own adventures, test myself physically and mentally, and have my own stories to tell. I will always be grateful to the Rinella, Newberg, Molls for sharing their hunting adventures, their knowledge, and most importantly their passion for the sport. I am now 5 years into being obsessed with hunting. It's given me a completely new relationship with my Dad. He is now not only my Dad but my mentor, my best friend, and inspiration. I killed my first Bull Elk in 2021 with my Dad at my side. Once the Bull was down, we hugged each other. He had tears in his eyes as he told me he was proud of me. That's a memory we will both have with me the rest of our lives. And it wouldn't have happened had it not been for other hunters sharing their experiences on social media.

"find another trailhead stupid" says the guy who primarily pays for private, landowner and guided hunts

I’ve been a OTC elk hunter for 35 years in CO. When the state closed down all the southern units to OTC all those hunters went north they had no choice. If you want to post a hunt fine but these young people video the trail head and wonder why they are full up next year. Takes a lifetime to learn a unit and how to hunt it and be successful. Rogan making that statement is like me telling him about UFC fighting that I know nothing about. It’s demoralizing and sad to think about what it has become and that young hunters will never see what it use to be.

Joe & Cam hunt extremely well managed non pressured elk on huge tracks of private land. That is not real elk hunting nor is it realistic for most people

“Find another trailhead stupid” is a pretty crazy statement to make when you have never been to a trailhead.

In my 60+ years of hunting reloading and rifle collecting I have seen a few changes and I think the Covid episode pushed a lot of people into the outdoors and once they were out there and felt the fresh air and freedom they made it a regular part of their lives to have a release from all the terrible things going on! Thanks for giving us an update Cliff on all the chatter talk on this subject!

I’m in the exact opposite shoes, been spearing my whole life, but only recently starting elk hunting. We love seeing new people getting into spearfishing, and one of my greatest joys in the sport now is teaching the newbies what we do and watching them go through the milestones. My experience so far in the mountains has been the same. Almost everyone I’ve run into, both other new guys and seasoned locals, have not only been super friendly but also extremely helpful and willing to share some knowledge with us. I think it comes down to one factor…respect gets respect.

Without watching the entire video (yet, I will), my kneejerk reaction is 2020 has in many changed, or ruined, hunting. The lockdowns drove people outdoors who wouldn't have otherwise been there. Some went back to the city aftewords, some got a taste and came back for more. I can say that in 2020, in one area i hunted archery, where there used to be 2 or 3 solo hunters like myself, in 2020 there were multiple GROUPS of hunters. It was like rifle season, but with bows. A lot of those guys you could tell by what they were doing, what they were wearing, were new. Ever since 2020, the popularity of hunting has EXPLODED. People got on the self reliance train. There's a lot of misconceptions about the "bounty" of the mountains I think. I think a lot of people see hunting as a means of self reliance. Too many shows on TV. 2020, caused SOOO many things. A large migration of people from the west coast, a huge uptick in hunting intrest like i said. Many of these people started to listen to, seek out, things they otherwise might not have, like hunting on social media. Using my channel as an example, I was recording my own hunts since 2018. Up until 2020, I had a total of 30 subscribers. Now, I've 670+. Not a large sum by any means, BUT, I do not use hash tags, I avoid certain keywords, I don't mention where I live, I don't ask anyone to subscribe, just doing my own thing ,and not trying to make a spectical of myself, and yet my channel keeps growing without ANY effort on my part. Personally, I see that as a trend, but it all started with 2020. Voices like Rogan amplify that interest, and have wider reach, but I honestly think 2020 kicked everything into overdrive and it hasn't stopped. ANother example, OTC tags for my area used to sell out in 2 months in 2018/2019. (EDIT: correction, in 2018 tags sold out in 2 months, in 2019, two weeks) Ever since 2020, they've been selling out in less than ONE DAY. Kind of a clue.

8:44 - agreed, you’re not doing something morally wrong by starting a new activity. Yes it’s a net positive for YOU, but it is not necessarily a net positive for others. IT’s easy for someone like Joe to say “oh you’re just going to have to adapt” because he’s super wealthy, and it was easy for him to come into the sport, being guided and mentored by someone and with the money and access to dramatically shorten his learning curve and lower the barrier to entry that so many others had to work through with blood sweat and tears. It also totally ignores how poor many, many rural hunters are. I grew up in NW Montana. We lived there year-round, when it wad brutally cold and economically difficult. We hunted, literally, to have meat to eat. That’s entirely different than some dude with a poo ton of money flying in, using top of the line gear (not grampas old 30.06 and hand me down boots) with guided knowledge and apps that take half a ton of the work out of it. Often these are guys with no local knowledge and as, Joe clearly demonstrated, no real concern for the local community. I like Joe a lot, and I’m a die hard capitalist, but his statement clueless, and reflective of his short time in the sport. It’s also clear he’s pretty unaware of just how finite a resource “trail heads” are, or that we’ve lost a ton of access in just the last decade. As you mentioned, you must acknowledge that you are impacting someone else experience, most likely, you are impacting it negatively. And, you are likely riding on their coattails, meaning, you’re likely impacting someone who has bled for the sport in a way you haven’t. They didn’t have youtube to teach them. They learned by hard work, trial, error, time invested, where newcomers now are learning a smattering of highlights from outube videos and with apps on their phone. The learning curve is shortened and the barrier to entry lowered so much, that newcomers to the sport aren’t “paying their dues” in the way that those who came before them did, and as such, they’re not the stewards of sport, the land, the animals, that they should be, and their “hunting etiquette” is pretty poor. I think the correct response is, if you want to be morally right, joining a sport can’t be only about your benefit. It can’t be just about “saving your life”. You have to say, if I’m doing this, I’m doing it for me, AND I’m going to make the hunting landscape a better place. I’m going to give back. I’m going to do it responsibly but I’m also going to be an advocate, be a voice for expansion of land access, hunting rights etc. The only way hunters are benefited by more hunters coming into the sport is if they do something to make the sport better. Everyone carries some weight. What is Joe Rogan doing with his platform in this regard? It’s one thing to go on cool guided hunts with youtube hunters and edit the content to make it look like the coolest thing in the world, and drum up interest, but if you love hunting, be involved in a more meaningful way than that, and be humble enough to know that “just find another trail head” may work for guys that can fly anywhere, it doesn’t work for the family that grew up in that town and are scraping to get by.

I'm a hunter's ed instructor. Every year we are concerned about the numbers of new hunters declining. Either we are recruiting new hunters or we are trying to keep others out of the woods. We can't have it both ways. I think it seems more crowded because access to private land has dwindled so much. I have no problem with landowners leasing out their land to bring in some extra money, but it does increase the pressure on public land.

Cliff you're the man. We recognize that you do what you do to help people, and that's honorable. Guys like Cam and Joe do it for follows, attention and to appear macho. I've learned infinitely more from your videos than I have out of those two gentlemen combined. Am I jealous of their hunts and success? No doubt. But I don't think they're helping anyone if that's the question.

5 years ago many hunters were saying “we need to bring up more hunters!” Well now we have a lot more and the chant has changed. My observation is that the new hunters who were brought in by the bro-gospel of Jo and Cam are stereotypically...assholes... Joes comment “find another trailhead stupid” perfectly illustrates the attitudes of a lot of these new hunters. Its easy to hate the new guy whose attitude is f-you im going to do what I want how I want to when and where I want to. Im just hoping this is a fad.

Cliff i love your take on the issue and as a new elk hunter myself being last year was my first time trying (didnt get squat) i just had an OTC cow tag, this year i put in a lot more time scouting and E scouting the unit i was going to hunt and got another OTC cow tag in a unit pretty close to town with a lot of pressure and multiple trucks at every trail head, i tagged out opening day 2 hours after first light! It was the best feeling in the world and i thank you for all the great content you put out i feel it has really helped me. Keep up the great work.

Money has taken the place of skillz, every Tom ,Dick and Harry wants to be a back country elk slayer... the reason for hunting is food not antlers again Money is the driver... bow season is a joke, 80 to 90 % let off 100 yard shots with a bow and the famous TV quote "lets let him sit overnight" add muzzle loaders with scopes, sabot's and weather protected ignition have ruined that hunt as well. Both of the above hunts were designed to be primitive hunts Money ruined that as well..... todays elk hunters are for the most part tv hunters.. the days of family elk hunting are drawing to a close .

Great video Cliff. All I can say is that trends have a spike and then a drop off, hunting is no different. We’re currently in a spike in people getting into hunting, some people will fall off in the next few years. If hunting is your way of life hang in there and adapt when you have to, don’t blame others.

Nice Cliff. Thanks for presenting this, well thought our and eloquent in the explained nuance. I chased a Uku for two year before I got my first one, so i understand and big congrats on the Wahoo!

Great topic Cliff. The comparison to spearfishing is one that hits home to me, I started freediving and spearing 15 years ago and saw the same shift. Interestingly enough, I have trad/big wall climbed for 20 years and noticed the same shift over the same timeframe. Walls and routes started to crowd 10 years ago, and really increased in the last 5. Spearing was the same shift at the same timeframe. I think overall there’s more people in the world, and the advent of GoPro cameras and RU-vid/IG have made learning anything from auto mechanics to spearing or hunting much more accessible. I remember the only way to learn climbing or spearing was through mentors like you had, or sparse information on forums. For better or worse, I think it’s just the shift seen with access to information.

The other day i was thinking how nice it will be when the Joe rogan podcasters give it up and find something more popular. My neighbor fell into this whole thing, bought Two bows 3 yeti coolers and about 3k worth of sitka. lol I'm not jealous or mad about the new hunters, its nice knowing most give it up. The ones who stick around for 10+ years it probably means something to them.

Im commimg up on 10 years elk hunting. 100 percent unsuccessful. From an introverts perspective most of these old school "protect our spot" people are a thorn to the community.

Social media has ruined it

Really appreciate you doing this video and your perspective Cliff!

It’s all about respect to other outdoorsmen/outdoorswomen. I’ve been obsessed with hunting since I was four and have spent the last 48 years chasing that passion. I’ve backcountry elk hunted for the past 26 years in Colorado on public land with great success and have taken 22 bulls in those 26 years. Over the past ten years or so, the amount of hunters in the area I hunt have increased but it hasn’t been a detriment. I’ve actually embraced the fact that more like minded people are getting involved. The fact that the voting public has made the choice to reintroduce wolves back to the western slope is a different story. What we’ve loved for years will soon not be obtainable.

I don't think most people have an issue with others entering into the hobby. Where I think the disconnect is what is a "good experience" out elk hunting. People want to hear elk bugle, see elk, and run into the occasional hunter out in the field... That's not what A LOT of elk hunters, or hunters in general, are experiencing these days. No bugles (because elk have figured out bugling means death), elk don't expose themselves unless they have to (because they'll die otherwise), and over crowding is real. On top of all this elk have learned that private land is safer than public land and land owners charge thousands of dollars to allow people to hunt them which cuts out the average person. Unfortunately the people that will be impacted by the change the most will be non residents, rifle hunters, and the poor. Unless hunters, and game management officials bake a bigger pie so everyone gets a piece hunting will simply become a rich man's sport where it'll cost $10,000 minimum to hunt elk.

10 years ago, most people couldn’t find Colorado on a map if they tried. But thanks to Eastman’s Hunting Journal, Huntin’ Fool, Epic Outdoors, they’ll tell you where to go and how to get there. Second problem is better fitness of hunters. When I was a kid guys over 40 had heart problems and emphysema and could only road hunt. Now 60 year old guys are packing it in 10 miles.

If you watch Cam's video "Cam's Bull of a Lifetime," you realize these celebrity hunters have an army of guides and film crew making sure they get their bull. It's unrealistic and guys getting into the game after watching stuff like Meateater are in for a rude awakening. Too bad the new unprepared hunters are taking away tags from guys hunting these areas their whole lives. Idaho was smart to end over the counter, out of state elk tags during the covid madness. the only problem is for some of these Western states, is the huge influx of people moving in and now being resident hunters.

I am newly into elk hunting. It's not MI Whitetail hunting... had to adapt to that. Did I decide to do this from an influencer's post? No way. I agree with you Cliff and my life is better for this. I have learned a ton by your material and appreciate your work. Having new respectful hunters will keep hunting alive for us all. Keep up the good work amigo.

This is an important conversation. I can really see both sides. I'm an avid public land hunter in North Idaho. I've seen a lot more crowding over the last ten years for sure. It's pushed me to find new spots, hike a little further, and have backup plans. I know a lot of older guys (late 50s and 60s) that complain all the time. Or have even quit. Always talking about the good ole days. It's a double edged sword for sure.

What does Rogan know about trailheads? He’s not a backcountry hunter.

I think your conclusion that adapting is a better strategy then just whining is correct. However, some of us older guys who can count our remaining seasons on our fingers, have invested in learning areas and tuning strategies that are being overrun by younger, fresher, eager legs. It would be nice if some of these social media influencers would stress and pass on more basic etiquette that would help mitigate some of the conflict. Groups of exuberant buglers pounding through miles of bedding areas, bumping critters to the next unit or private really does suck. ... I know, suck it up buttercup.... and I will, but with a bit of whine.... Good stuff, on point, as usual. Thanks!

Was archery hunting for elk in the Ennis area in 1982. Encountered a couple hunting mountain grouse. They asked "what are you guys doing?" We rarely saw anyone during archery season. Now that exact spot is blanketed with hunters from Labor Day to Thanksgiving. It's an entirely different activity. Still enjoyable for me but in other ways. Things change.

Thank you Cliff, really appreciate your take on a hot button issue. I'll admit, It's far too easy, especially for me, to cringe when a platform as big as Joe's talks hunting (even though I love hearing hunt stories). Adapting is hard, but necessary for survival.

Clif congrats on Wahoo. I was able to do some spearfishing when I was stationed in Hawaii. You should go to big island and continue your journey. Great perspective ty

Cliff Gray keeping it real as always 👍🏼 you did a good job of painting the picture of both sides of the argument

I always enjoy your experience and understanding of modern controlled hunting. Experience is knowledge and you are knowledgeable. I hunt wilderness and appreciate your perspective. I’m older, so your more modern take on our future is important to me. Cam and Joe are just trying to get views. Big difference. I enjoy Joe, but I know how to listen to his “experience”.

Cliff, you make great points. Joe, Cam and the Rinella brothers ALL have admirable traits and they’re ALL hard workers. I wish the beef would die down because as we’ve learned from hiphop, it’s not the folks you’re beefing with you really have to worry about, it’s the fan bois! HA! But seriously, these aforementioned gentleman are providing a service by having the FULL conversation of what’s actually happening on public and private land in America. Listen to both sides. Debate yourself. Make up your own mind. I personally don’t like when Matt Rinella calls Cam names on his platform. But I also HATE it when Rogan talks about public land hunting in the Midwest and East coast as if it were a peasants pursuit. And it is way lamer to call Matt Rinella, “Steve’s brother” as opposed to saying his name. We know who Joe and Cam are talking about, I mean… c’mon. And finally Cliff, I think you should’ve left “elk” out of the title of this video. The truth I see is: ALL influencers who make a profit off of posting hunts and dead animals online are clearly hurting hunting for everyone including themselves. Joe and Cam are the biggest offenders in this category and no matter how much of a bad ass Cam is (and I believe he is a bad mofo) he has sold his name to marketing teams who have mythologized him into an Icon. And frankly, I don’t believe any of these hunting celebrities are sharing the full truth. I’d bet the farm that most of these guys wound and lose insane numbers of animals every year as their relevance and legacy depends on killing big game. And now like never before, through the very specific and intentional design of hunting marketing agencies, there are hordes of young new hunters traveling around the US thinking they’re Alpha Predators! They illegally litter public lands with trail cam like Timothy Treadwell as they film their misadventures, with the very specific intention of building a brand that profits off of killing big game. They hike around WMA’s and take every technical advantage they can get because they need more content. It doesn’t even look like fun, and you can literally watch endless videos of hunting influencers whining about “the grind” of hunting for content. You can listen to hundreds of podcasts wherein these influencers-people making money off publicly shared wildlife-advise folks to “turn the phones off” and “enjoy the hunt again,” except they can’t and won’t because they’re market hunters trafficking in relevance and kill shot content. All the influencers say the same thing that Matt Rinella says! Except the part where Rinella says it’s actually a problem… It’s a deadly cycle. We are messing things up. Everybody knows it. Matt Rinella can be a real dick, but he is trying to help public land. Unfortunately, Rinella is a state employed Ecologist and tho he is raising funds to help, he ain’t rich. Joe Rogan and Cam could help the American hunter with a series of Podcasts that could raise millions, in prolly a month. Cam and Joe don’t have to hunt public, but they could help us peasant bastards. Hell, why not have Steve’s brother on the JRE? Merry Christmas.

A lot of wisdom in this video, both from the perspective of "old timers" accepting and tolerating newcomers to a sport, as well as the obligation of newcomers to learn and respect the cultural norms and protocols of a new activity

In my state I have noticed the biggest impact has been on the general season tags. Part of the issue is DWR is making a lot of changes trying to cope with the influx that are emphasizing opportunity for more tags over opportunity for successful hunts. Dramatically increasing the number of tags (in some cases/species nearly doubling the number of tags) during parts of the hunt where there are already low success rates and the dramatically increased hunting pressure is making those hunts even harder. (the only winner in those situations are the Gear companies and the DWR). It doesn't seem like the Limited Entry Units with high success rates aren't as effected as far as crowding goes because they are not increasing the number of tags but there is a bigger line to try and hunt those areas and tag prices are much higher and the number of points to get into them is going up every year which sucks. I am fortunate to have a 3 kids who are all putting in for tags or building points every year along with me so that we have a pretty good odds that at least one of us will draw decent tags each year so we can all go out and enjoy the hunt together and still have pretty good odds at bringing something home with us.

My gripe is personal with 1 particular season in 2020. I put in the work scouting and clearing trail access points for archery elk in CO unit 44 as soon as the snow melted in the spring. All summer I rarely saw anyone else in the area so I assumed I would have it mostly to myself and a few other hunting partners I met the season before. So it's a few days before season, I go in and set base camp still nobody else in the area. Opening day I go up and there's several guys from TX running around the trails with Rzr's and I get to talking to them and low and behold they were given the spot by "Cliff Gray" So take it how you want but just remember the influence your voice may have on others hunts.

Cliff, around 15:30 you talk about the un written rules of elk hunting (or just hunting in general.) You should make a video on what those are, you might know some that i dont know.

You said many times in the state you reside. The problem with that is tons of non resident hunter's are adding pressure because of social media.

The entire problem comes from the "its public land and its legal so ill do it if i want" crowd. To many influencers dont take the time to teach the ethics, just wanna show their success.

Great video Cliff it does a great job to address a number of points where people like to look past the everyone has to start somewhere. My biggest problems are the hook throwers and shooters that never want to move beyond that stage of getting their feet wet and not learning to respect and treasure the wildlife and land if they decide to continue the pursuit. Alaska has been in an interesting spot with a fairly steady downturn that has started to collapse a lot of fisheries for about 6 years and the start of a downturn with some rough winters starting about 4 years ago that have put hunting in a tight spot along with poor management has made some areas almost completely devoid of wildlife. A lot of this downturn for both sides are greatly contributed to by commercial interests and weather, but the new hook throwers and shooters that don’t want to learn to respect the wilderness and wildlife certainly aren’t helping in some cases.

The problem isn't the hunting,. The problem is the promotion of these activities on tv and social media to the point that it's commercialization has impacted the hunting in a negative way. It's increased the number of people hunting (I'm not willing to call them hunters because for the most part they are just shooters) and this has increased the demand for places to hunt, the amount of people hunting a fixed amount of land, the costs have increased because of supply and demand affects, etc.... One of the great joys of hunting, fishing, etc... is the solitude of being in the woods, out on the water etc... but instead you often end up dealing with confrontations in those places due to the added amount of people trying to do what you're doing. I like Joe Rogan for the most part but he isn't a hunter, he's a shooter. He couldn't kill a deer or elk if he didn't have Rinella, Hanes, outfitters etc... guiding him to the target.

Good vid, CLIFF! If Cam and Joe didn’t ruin it, someone else would’ve ;) technology is what changing everyone’s lives. Our ability to communicate and spread info is insane. Go have your own experience. It’s about the hunt. Not the kill. The elk adapt and so should the hunters! Man up.

People are focused on the wrong problems. HABITAT LOSS AND LAND ACCESS are a bigger deal than a few (thousands) more hunters in the field. The saddest part of all of this is that the people who are most vocal complaining about other hunters don't seem to be able to lift their voices towards taking action on policy in a pro-hunting, pro-wildlife, pro-habitat way. My experience is that newer hunters seem to be more engaged with conservation activities than the people whining about how hunting used to be in their favorite spots.

I think hunting will continue to change. Be prepared for your grandkids or your great grandkids to have a deer hunt or an antelope hunt be a “once in a lifetime” tag. Enjoy what we have now and do all you can while you can. Thank some of the founding fathers before us who had the foresight and desire to create public lands that everyone has access to.

I'm not a lifelong hunter but I can really relate to the guys that are upset. I grew up in the eighties surfing and it was my life passion. By the mid nineties most surf brands had sold to the same major corporates and u saw cheezy surf shops move to every mall, even inland. A sport that was ignored and mocked as only for loser stoners grew incredibly into the 2000s. We lost traditional etiquette in surf lineups and places like Socal and Hawaii, Australia became out of control crowded at any half decent rideable wave. I threw in the towel on my surf culture and I'm pretty bitter. I surf better than 99.8% of anybody that calls themselves a surfer. But I now only surf when I visit my wife's country of Indonesia (which is crowded with Euro and Aussie surfers). Some hobbies are very difficult and expensive to do when the hordes come. Some OG''s make $$ off of it and accept it, or just thrive in the rat race. Not me, its devastating and just being frustrated is a major understatement. Cheers Cliff!

I think the point is missed in all this "Socially influenced" increase of hunting adventurers. The dynamic shift is not Soley falling in the lap of social media, It's the perfect storm of multiple things all happening at same time which these influencers helped bring to the public's awareness. Technology. Add in great gear, like more efficient weapons (bows/LR rifle equipment), Wireless trail cams, muzzle loaders that shot beyond 200 yards with extreme accuracy, light weight, effect clothing, comfortable all purpose packs, light weight tent options, titanium stoves, dehydrated foods and equipment, water purification systems, etc... The list of tech gadgets that have flooded the industry has made it more enjoyable and possible to stay longer, go deeper. Then add in the greed of States who saw the market profitability opportunity and ran with it. Creating a variety of extra hunts cleverly placed and named increasing their total sales profits. No one will dent yhe herd numbers are way less than a decade ago. The argument is who is to blame. Well everyone involved I guess.

Thanks for all of the great videos you've posted...they've definitely helped me become a better hunter. My brothers and I have been talking about this topic recently, so I'm going to get up on my soapbox. There's no doubt that there are significantly more hunters on public land than there were ten years ago. There's no doubt that a big part of that is the multitude of media out there that explains how to get into field, how to get tags, and advice on strategies, etc... I feel for long time hunters, especially Residents, who have historically hunted spots that are now a pumpkin patch. But complaining about it or trying to place blame is like trying to stop the rising tide. I remember when A River Runs Through It came and and that movie pushed a HUGE amount of people into flyfishing. Does it kinda suck? Yep. But did I bemoan the loss of solitude on certain stretches of the river? Yeah, I'll admit I did internally, but I harbored no ill will for the guys new to it. The same thing is happening with public land hunting, especially elk, now. It's actually an impressive feat that you (and many others) have managed to build an industry and way of life out of almost nothing. Kudos. The only real problem with public land hunting is that it is open to EVERYBODY. Unfortunately, that includes the good, the bad and the ugly. It includes the hunters that leave no trace behind and it includes the ones that leave a trail of trash. It includes the hunters that make sure they know the regs, and the ones that could care less about being legal. The consequence of these issues not only make it harder on the 'good guys', but its promoting quite a backlash against public land, non resident especially, hunters in general. It cringe to suggest that some videos should be put out to tell people how to be ethical and to pick up their trash, but maybe it couldn't hurt. These are things you should already know but the time you're in the field, but it appears that many don't.

Technology is also getting better. Better optics, lighter materials, advance mapping devices. Also all the new creature comfort’s when camping etc…

I would really here your opinion on the Born and Raised Crew, Hushin, The Hunting Public, etc.

Social media and OnX have literally ruined hunting... I've been waterfowl hunting avidly for 30 years and unless you have big money and leases it has gotten tough. The direction it's going is not good... in ten more years it will be like going to Walmart when you want to go hunting.

One problem with new people getting into hunting is there are certain people going out into the woods and wilderness that have no buisness being there, no woodsmanship skills, oblivious to whats going on, no awareness and possibly get themselves hurt or killed and worse get others hurt or killed.

We need to recruit as many people we can to hunting! Thank you Cam and Joe for getting more people into it. If we dont get a shit load more people were going to loose it. Im a washington resident and losing hunting is a very real prospect. You just have to adapt. Evolve or die as a hunter. I hunt anything legel, anytime legal, any method legal.

The way it’s all heading is that you will only be able to draw a tag in the state you want to hunt every 5-6 years. That means that if you want to hunt every year, you need to start building points in ALL the western states and just hunt them on a rotational basis.

Thanks for the discussion on this, Cliff, and thanks for the education you've provided us all. I may only be 5 years into my hunting career (albeit a fisherman since birth), but I know in my bones I'm a hunter til I die. I do think some of the hunting popularity nowadays will fade. I'd add that the increased interest in Western big game hunting may benefit us all if it translates to increased conservation of habitat and improved resource management. But if we as stakeholders don't influence our government and culture in the direction of supporting our elk and their habitat, then yeah, there are just more takers in the woods making all the other takers uncomfortable. That said, the increased human traffic outdoors definitely deflates the thrill of being "out there" on your own, pursuing these wild animals. This coming year I have to adapt by studying smaller pockets of habitat bordering private land because that's where the pressure is pushing them. The increased hunting pressure may be my ally in the future but this year it just sucked.

Tried showing a friend how to read a compass and he said no need i have my phone. 😮 see to much dependency on phones.

Grew up in the Florida keys and love spearfishing. The reefs used to be full of Hogfish, not so anymore. The reality is Hogfish are not too smart and get wiped out quickly.

There is def positives and negatives with Cam and Joes influence. But people have been hunting private land since the dawn of land ownership. People have been engaged in trading money or resources for access to land to hunt ,graze cattle,etc for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. The only people who complain about private land typically are the people who can’t afford it. And private land owners can help conservation efforts better than the states sometimes

You presented good points on both sides of the discussion. I have been hunting the majority of my life(40 years of the 46). I live in Montana and have first hand witnessed a disregard of courtesy and understood customs of hunting. First come first serve..public land spots. Nonresident hunters have a week to hunt and are going to hunt the drainage even if others are there. Im glad hunting is growing, i just wish everyone would adopt a level of respect and honor for each other. Hunting has changed a great deal.

There’s still an increase in other areas of hunting, here in Missouri there’s so many whitetail hunters, I’ve been told the public land looks like a “pumpkin patch”. (You have to wear blaze orange)

Matt rinellas argument and perspective on the commercialization of the hunting market does seem to have many valid points, and hoping there'll be a decrease of hunting influencers doing for the gear, clout, likes and follows.

Cam and Joe are your biggest advocates for hunting in general. They even promote hunting. So what Cam has worked his entire to get to where he is at and his life was spent hunting public land and pushing farther and farther for success. It’s taken Cam 40 years to get to hunt the land he does. Rogan gas had sone of the best mentors in archery to help him out. He does hunt public land but also he has friends that own private but the animals are still animals no matter what.

It is a slippery slope, I watch lots of "RU-vid hunters" content. I have been hunting my whole life. Went on my first quail hunt when I was 8 and shot my first deer when I was 12 and have hunted for the last 21 years. That being said I still find it frustrating so see so much more pressure on tags because of increased number of people. I am extremely torn. I dont want to discourage people from pursuing this activity because I love hunting and can fully understand why people fall in love with this activity. But the more people that are out there the lower the quality of my experience is while doing this activity. Take this for what it is but that's my 2 cents.

Cam’s articles and book from years ago was at the start of the influx, in the opinion of many.

I think hunting right now is really popular and as with all things it’s a cycle. Will it ever die down to the good ole days? Probably not, but give it 5 or so years and I bet you’ll see less people interested in hunting. Humans are social creatures that tend to follow trends and norms. Right now hunting is just the cool thing to do, something else will emerge or come back in popularity. Thats my guess anyways.

In some ways, the attention these guys have brought to the sport has been amazing. In other ways it's also been devastating. It was already trending that way long before Rogan though. Huntin fool, Eastman's, Steve Rinella, Randy Newberg and guys like that were already throwing out unit numbers and things that are detrimental to pressure. All that being said, Rogan's elitist attitude, "find a new trail head" ...really crappy viewpoint. He'd feel differently if he hunted like an average Joe.

Funny I'm in the Carribean to surf and spearfish myself right now and agree that you see similar trends in all outdoor sports with limited resources - backcountry skiing as well. Surfing probably experienced this first starting with the 60s. Where it's netted out is that more people are into the sport and that's a good with more infrastructure around it. There is a "paradise lost" element from crowding and aggressive behavior from locals vs non locals, as well as the newer participants not respecting etiquette, but there are still non-competitive waves/breaks and hidden gems and the popularity seems to come in waves. I can see why if it's gotten harder for you and more expensive to have to drive further from all the east coasters and city people getting into your family spots you'd be bent out of shape, especially if you see influencers profitting from ruining your past experience. But if there are more people involved and they all have a right to participate, we need to find ways to accomodate them by conserving and regulating the resources better, increasing tag fees or reducing tags and encouraging more hunting of invasive/overpopulated species (whitetail vs elk) and fund more wardens to crackdown on poachers and side by sides on non-motorized trails. I remember hearing when I did my hunters ed that hunting is in decline in America and hunters were getting sidelined from public policy and it seems like that trend has turned. There's a lot of good from more hunters, from more advocacy for conservation to personal benefits from Americans getting out into the wilderness, especially with some 40%+ of us now being obese and 18% suffering from depression. Also quite a few veterans use hunting to adjust back into society. It would be great if hunting returned to being a core part of the American identity again.

Thanks Cliff for (respectfully) calling out Joe even though he's your friend! I think the State's Wildlife Department is also responsible for doing a better job of managing tag allocation. However, I don't really have hope because more tags sold = more money, and I'd bet that some of that money is just fattening some people's wallets.

I used to enjoy some of the original hunting programs. Now there are just too many peeps out there putting up content. Joe and Cam dont hunt like the majority of us. I wouldn't classify what they do as hunting, but lean more towards shooting. Social media has been good for hunting in some ways and detrimental in many others. Kind of like OnX...there are NO secrets out there anymore.

I think the people thay have the biggest gripe are the ones who live in these areas. If you've hunted in your backyard your whole life, it sucks when it becomes overrun. They could put in for other draw areas, but im sure some aren't able, and most are unwilling to pack up to fight over a new area. Im in the midwest, and the whitetail woods are experiencing the same things. Id never discourage anyone wanting to start hunting, but anyone going out without understanding social orders or ethics is in for a rough time. If we can all get along and possibly work together it would be great but so much of hunting is a solo sport with no room for spectators. The hunting public has had this same affect here in the midwest and eastern US on whitetail. New guys are showing up and burning up spots and going home in 3-5 days. No biggie until the next group shows up and it doesnt stop til December. Its a double edged sword for sure but ethics sportsmanship help a lot.

I need to throw something in here: have the elk and wahoo been asked too? Like in a sense of sustainability.... What would they decide on? From that regard : flyfish. Catch and release more sustainable.

I saw the change in hog hunting with dogs when I lived down south. Before hog hunting became cool in the early 2000s you’d have your pick of places and generous seasons (all small game season) on state and federal land as a hog hunter you fell between the cracks of deer and turkey season . Private was great farmers would pay for us to roll through during growing seasons. So then discovery/animal planet or take your pic tv channel ran with the hogzilla and hog hunting shows. The changes I saw were fairly rapid and it set off a lot of reactions by the state on how they managed hunters for an animal that shouldn’t be there. It seemed like over night everyone with a dog became a hog hunter. That put pressure on animals that became harder to hunt and the amount of places to hunt them became crowded with hunters. Not the end of the world but for the state they changed how they went about managing hunting hogs with dogs. Instead of the longer generous season we always had they started to cut the days and make rules on state land limiting the amount of dogs or times you could hunt. Still wasn’t a problem in my eyes it’s public land we all can enjoy. But the real change I saw was in private land, farmers would pay for you to help control feral hogs during planting and growing seasons. Within a few years they charged you for hunting rights. As one farm told me he made more money off the hogs then he lost on them. I’m out of that game but have been in the professional hunting I industry for 20 years. A lot of the guys who jumped into that world don’t do it anymore so in my eyes it was a flash in the pan. But I know the changes the dnr made still effect the sport.

I've hunted one thing or another for 34 years. I've seen a lot of changes but since I live in the state of insanity (CA) I guess my family and I have been a part of the "problem" we have hunted multiple states for multiple critters. And what we have seen is the weekend warriors are crazy now days. The first 3 or 4 days of the season are nuts, people everywhere. But come 5 or 6 days into the season it's crickets. All camps are pretty much empty. We don't do OTC anymore because we have built up a ton of points in 6 Western states for a variety of big game animals. Now we just pick a state. Figured what hunt we want and go. 5 or 6 points in most states gets you a great hunt!

If people want to save big game hunting, the easiest remedy is to ban guides/outfitters from all public land hunts. No real hunter hires a team of professionals to do all the real work with hunting for them. It wouldn't hurt to ban ATV's/OHV's from public lands either.

The angle of discovering hunting has saved people or helped people - that is valid and that is great. If becoming a hunter has opened up positive things for people, full speed ahead. That is one aspect for sure. The other aspect (and perhaps what really the conversation should be) is the unrealistic hunting portrayed by the RU-vid celebrity hunters and how that skews the thought process of many newer public land/OTC hunters. The majority of hunts you see on RU-vid are not going to be something the "average" OTC/public land hunter will be doing. There are exceptions of course, but a vast majority of "average" folks do not have the following two items: 1) 30 days (or way more) to hunt each year 2) $10,000s of dollars to spend on hunts/hunting each year The average hunter may have good gear, and a good mindset, and even be in physical shape, but they don't have 1 and 2 above. #1 above is a huge gap between Joe Rogan/Cam Hanes, and the average person. If I have 7 days to hunt archery elk, and I show up at my trailhead and there are 10 trucks, I don't have 30 days or 45 days to go to plan B, C, and D. I am stuck with plan A and if I leave plan A, I lose hunting days looking for plan B. You say, well have plan B ready in advance - again - I work 40-50 hours/week for a living (nothing to do with hunting) and can't spend summer on the road making plans B and C as well as plan A. #1 and #2 above are linked, of course. It is easy for Joe Rogan to say - find another trailhead - he is wealthy and has unlimited time. He is totally disconnected from 99% of hunter's reality. Another huge disconnect (and fake out) is that a vast majority of the great hunts you see on RU-vid are not OTC tags. They may be on public land, but they are controlled tags with way less pressure in the unit. And, also, you can be sure Joe Rogan and Cam Hanes don't show up to a hunt with zero info and have to figure it out - they have "People" who are watching the animals/intimately familiar with the unit and have them on game in the first day if not the first morning. Not necessarily a guide formally, but someone who is helping in the background. Does it sound like I am hammering Rogan and Hanes - not at all. My whole point is.......the average guy, which is a vast majority, are not in their shoes and they are not in ours - so there is a huge disconnect in reality. RU-vid has significantly affected hunting just as it has significantly affected many other aspects of our culture and society worldwide. There is no putting the genie back in the bottle. That ship has sailed. Hunting is a massive for profit industry that has grown exponentially in the past 10-15 years - driven greatly by social media. When something becomes popular the sad reality is the cost to do it will increase and that will create more and more of a gap. That is exactly what is happening with hunting. While I would like to think the states will manage it for the better, the states are also about revenue and when money is involved, normally the best choices are not made. State management of hunting is the only thing standing between a collapse in hunting for the average guy and something sustainable. Sadly, we are well along on the collapse for the average guy. The number of tags (resident, non-resident, OTC) needs to be reduced. If not, the collapse will continue to accelerate. Western states need to 1) go full choose your weapon for all species (you either bow hunt or rifle hunt, not both) 2) if you apply for a controlled tag you cannot buy an OTC tag if you don't draw. I can see the comments now...."This was my first year hunting with an OTC tag on public land with 20 trucks at the trailhead and on the first morning I was 1 mile from my truck and shot a 330 bull, public land hunting is still perfect." Yes, that happens and will still happen - but to that guy..........it won't happen to you again. You will hunt for 30 years and not kill that bull again. After 41 years of hunting in Montana, Oregon, Idaho, and Wyoming...........I can tell you hunting is forever changed. Many of my close hunting friends with similar hunting experience - who killed a bull every year for years - have not killed a bull for the past few years. That is not a fluke and not for lack of effort and not because they have not hunted hard. The reality is the landscape has changed. Some may say for the worse, some may say for the better, that is a personal opinion. Spots they hunted every year are now very crowded, and they can't just go to another trailhead as Joe Rogan says they should - they have to be back to work in 5 days..........

Cliff- I love all your content. To all the haters- nobody cares. Work harder. I recently bought Backcountry Bowhunter by Cam and it’s amazing. He is a straight savage and has a history of diy wilderness backpack elk and deer hunting before he was a social media icon. That said, Joe has a level of discipline which makes him a great archer. I dont hate… but maybe a little jealous.

RU-vid and social media has completely ruined hunting.

I think the whole "hunting videos causing mass growth" is worry over a bit of fad. Some people jump into it because it looks cool, but they rarely last long. Either no success makes them give up or they kill something and realize the work involved. Or, bad weather, etc. Hunting has a way of sorting itself (eventually) out to those who belong out there... Where I live in WNY, there seems to be more "used to go" hunters than new, young, hunters.

Has social media and even all the new mapping systems made it more crowded which in turn more difficult, yes. Have they ruined hunting, NO. I archery hunt for the level of difficulty and challenge. It makes me work harder, and I'm okay with that.

Hey Cliff, curious what you think of the common line of: "more new hunters = more advocates of the sport." Meaning, preserving hunting rights, habitat access, etc. I just started big game hunting this year, so I can't speak on the above question. However, I'm a big fisherman for Salmon/Steelhead in the PNW. That has seen a massive influx in anglers the last 5+ years (due partly to similar RU-vid personalities). However, there are less fish and less access than ever before. State wildlife agencies, "environmental" groups, big corporations (Patagonia), have pushed a narrative that hatchery fish are bad and have closed dozens of rivers based off that. I don't expect you to know much about this or have an opinion. But, it seems like the old guys haven't ever needed to fight for their right to fish so they don't, and the new guys still don't really understand what's going on. I have not yet seen the angling masses standing together to fight and win against the concentrated (and well financed) opposition. So the influx of new anglers really has not reaped any benefits for overall fishing opportunities. The last 5 years (during the influx) we've lost more opportunities than ever. TLDR; I am wondering if you've seen examples of these new hunters making a difference in disputes, opportunities, etc. that impact the future of the sport.

The comments Rogan made to Dudley about sharing spots on public land should also be highlighted. I like Rogan, but his lack of experience with public land hunting is abundantly clear.

Arizonas hunts have been trashed by the newberg bs, and the hunting public. You can’t go anywhere now without endless out of state plates with huge groups of 20-30 people hunting out of multiple campers. Every hill has a hunter on it. It’s absolutely ridiculous.

I’m just shocked that Joe Rogan said something without regard to the negative impact it might have.

Kinda like you said. If your a local find a season that’s not that popular and hunt it or hunt during the week. Joe and cam have no clue about hunting public land and what it’s like I think they had to dedicate a season to hunting one of these places I think the mentality would change. I mostly feel bad for the local guy that gets pushed out of his area

I'm convinced those TRT bros could shoot a world record 30 yards off the trail head and never talk about it because they couldn't tell you how many miles they hiked.

Same for Tarpon and the flats...

I think crowding issues are probably localized. I'm a duck hunter in Iowa - not a big destination duck state. I think adventurous western hunts are the big ticket right now so western hunting is crowded right now. Long term, though, I believe promoting hunting is worthwhile. The majority of hunters are 50/60/70 years old, I believe and am concerned about a lot of hunters aging out with fewer new hunters entering the pursuit. Several decades ago and before, kids got into hunting primarily from their fathers and grandfathers but over the last few decades, there are fewer fathers in the home and more and more urbanization which indicates that kids have less opportunity to get into hunting the way they did in the past, so I think that maybe some of these huntinf influencers play an important role. Hunting is not a large community and I think, rather than fight amongst ourselves and block other hunters from entering the sport because they saw Cam Haines kill an elk, we should find ways to work together to increase game populations and hunting access. Those were a couple of the points I tried to make to Matt Rinella when I was on his podcast several months back but I probably didn't articualte them as well as I would have liked at the time

I think people seeing how awesome it is has really made it difficult to find and hunt elk . But it’s only going to get worse. It’s been Randy Newburg , hushing. Born raised out doors they all have created this tough situation

A couple of points. First, living in a draw only state that doesn't have a method for preference points, the massive influx hurts my already limited chances at drawing tags. Second, a couple of questions about out of state hunting. My taxpayer dollars go to the management of wildlife in my state. Why should any person from out of state get an elk tag when there are residents who don't? As a New Mexican, we are high crime, terrible schools, low paying jobs, and awful infrastructure. How is it fair that I live here and put up with the bad parts of NM, but then don't reap the positives? Third, what are your thoughts on monetizing our wildlife? I understand the argument about stimulating the economy with out of state money. My concern is that landowners are given tags for free from the state and then the landowners sell them for exorbitant prices that precludes residents of that state from being able to purchase them. On this course, how do we prevent ourselves from becoming like Europe where hunting is only accessible to the super wealthy? The fact of the matter is there are limited hunting opportunities. Not everyone gets to go. That being said, the influx of new people creates even more demand. How does this not inevitably lead to hunting opportunities increasing to the point where the 'cultural' hunters aren't completely priced out? And, since you touched on the idea of morality, here's my last question for you. Given that there are limited opportunities and that hunting does provide a purpose, reason, motivation, and direction for a lot of people, old hunters and new, who should get the tag? The person is a resident who grew up hunting with his dad and grandad and now as an adult structures his life around hunting season or an out of stater who hears Joe rogan talk about the health benefits of elk meat but couldnt care less about hunting tradition and conservation?

Wars have been fought for hunting grounds since the beginning of time. We are not special people because we live in 2023.

One of the things increased involvement in hunting brings along that you didn't mention was more advocacy. If no one hunts public lands and no one appreciates them for what they provide to the population then they disappear.

Before I watch this video, I’ll answer the question. Yes. Yes they have.

I'd say it's a double edged sword. Whether people want to admit it or not, hunting was dying for years. There's been a constant downward trend in licenses sold and money for wildlife management was drying up leading to less of a say in how wildlife was managed. The influx of hunters brings money back into the system, increases our say and brings more people to our side of the debate when it comes to wildlife management, firearms laws, and outdoor access cases. That means there's going to be a lot more competition though and if we want hunting to be around for our kids or grand kids, we're going to have to suck it up and know that it's going to be harder with more competition. Hunting can be too much of an old boys club at times and those never withstand the test of time. Those of us who have experience need to teach and educate the newer hunters instead of shunning and denigrating them. We were all new once and so one had to teach us, now is our turn to pay it forward. As for Joe, I like a lot of stuff he has to say but this is a case of him just being ignorant and not having the same experience with his cushy paid hunts. He's not hunting public land 10+ miles out and dealing with new hunters that may be doing dumb things. His hunting group may be the only people for 10 miles in any direction versus dodging hunters every few hundred yards. He'll just never understand the issue he's commenting on here like the average guy will.

It’s not one or 2 people it’s social media in general. No Matter your hobby if it’s out doors based people have sky rocketed to it. All the places in CO or UT in jeeps that used to be places you would never see anyone now there’s 100 razors a weekend or the local water fall that was kinda only known locally now has a parking lot and cops guiding traffics. Social Media has polarized every facit.

I grew up in the North East. I've been working my way west over the years on my own. From my experiences if you beat up the same spots year after year you're going to see more and more things you dont like each year no matter what you're doing. The crowds change year to year. Thank Joe Bide for cramming oir communities with immigrants. People are pushing further and further into the wilderness and there's a ton of newbs.

I hate to say it but all good points. If you are new to hunting, Utah is the only place to go. Shit, while you're at move there too.

Is it morally wrong that new hunters are coming onboard? Of course not. Matt Rinella's question is in the wisdom of actively recruiting this level of folks to big game hunting. In Utah, a general season archery deer tag on all but the worst units is now a every 2 or 3 year thing because of the number of people that apply. Limited entry archery tags in the worst units are 10+ years to draw. We'd all agree that big game hunting does good things for you, but how much good can it do when you only get to do it once every 3 years? How about once every 5 years? Families stop hunting if no one draws a tag and when a kid only gets to go out 3 times in their youth, they won't be converted like those of us that went every year. There's a tipping point where the game changes and we're headed in that direction.

When Matt Rinella said on his brothers podcast, "maybe 1/4 of the people at the trailhead were there because of social media, but it doesn't really matter, I want them all gone", it's pretty clear he's out in the weeds. Get there earlier or find another trailhead.