Hearthstone Theory: The Druid Problem 

A month and a half later, Druid is dead.

He's no longer penniless POGGERS

Yet again, new expansion revealed on the same day as the new Pennyless video. Unlucky mate

Wild growth getting nerfed to 3 mana as of today's announcement. Nourish will also cost 6 mana. When year of the raven rotates out this kind of Druid will indeed disappear.

Congratulations on the sponsorship :)

T A Z D I N G O

That Secret Druid joke made me laugh for long.

With the mess that is youtube....I'm oddly happy to see people get sponsors. How times have changed

Blizzard will make sure you never get an up to date video out

People have found something to complain about since I started playing the game in beta. There's always some "cancer" or "ebola" in every single card game I've played. I can't think of a single one of them where the player base was content and happy. Not once.

Back in the day, particularly during the wombo-combo days of force of nature, Nourish was not used at all. It was considered an inferior card. It was the invention of Ultimate infestation that made it more popular to play because it was now flexible that you could lose the 3 card draws for a boost in mana when you were going to draw 5 cards in a few turns.

One idea i have for druid is to make treants an actual minion type like murlocs or pirates and give it to some minions outside of just summoning them like say the ancients or ironwood golem. You’ve already got the whole theme of flooding the board and getting crazy power levels from field buffs, why not allow this archetype to actually work as a more midrange/ aggro type of deck.

11:36 ill have you know that taunt druid was a great deck in KotFT which consistently got me to rank 17 with my Hadronox > innervate X2 > moat lurker combo. it was glorious trust me

I think Druid actually is more powerful than the stats suggest. The stats are what they are because the class warps the meta. People play decks and tech specifically to counter druid. Also, I think the problem is Druid's classic set, which is much more powerful than other classes. Druid has always been a powerful and viable class through Hearthstone's history and will remain one until Druid's classic set is changed.

Interesting video, although I was watching one of Firebat's videos a while back, & he mentioned how ramping up to 10 mana & pulling off big stunts was Druid's thing, & that the real problem with Druid is how they are a multiclass, well, class. Warrior, for instance, is the signature defensive class, armouring up to the heavens & outtaunting / outfatiguing their opponents. However, Druid does it better by a mile & a half. I don't think the solution is to give Druid more aggressive options (although that wouldn't be too bad of an idea), but after watching this video, I personally think that Druid's gameplan should be diversified a little. Maybe give them a ramp option similar to Darnassus Aspirant where the ramp isn't permanent because it's tied to a minion that you have to protect. Maybe give them a card that ramps for 3 mana but you lose them all once you reach 10 mana. Hell, maybe even give Druid a 0-attack minion that adds an Innervate to their hand at the end of their turn. Druid's identity revolves around ramping & pulling off crazy combos, but I'm one who thinks that the concept of ramping isn't handled the best in Hearthstone, mainly due to how, at the moment, they can take a beat-down in the early game as they ramp & then recover from it later on with their strong defensive tools, which as a Wild Player, is something I'll have to live with for the rest of Hearthstone's lifespan.

I promise you, if you give a good aggro card to druid, aggro token druid will just go nuts again and will do turn 4 or 5 lethals as it used to do, it's a terrible solution, because it will totally destabilize the meta. Unless you like chaos of course :)

Ancient of lore had to be nerfed for Nourish to see play and end up also being op IMAGINE THAT!

I face more deathrattle hunter than I do all variants of druid combined right now. I think people feel bad about playing druid and just aren't right now, which is sort of bizarre.

I just love it when i psychic scream an entire board of wisps , literally wins the game right then

Honestly the big problem with Druid isn't even how all druid archetypes kinda play the same: All druid GAMES play the same. They have access to such obscene card draw and ramp they routinely see their entire deck. It's not fast, but it's consistent, which means the games themselves have less variety and, ultimately, take less skill, given you already know how to go about doing what you built the deck to do.

I play tempo mage often, and even though it's only 3000+ legend player opinion, I think druid's armor gain is overtuned. They almost always gain 65 armor in the course of the game which is 10 more than I have burn in my entire deck (considering all the random missiles land on druid's portrait and not his minions). Ramping up and playing powerful stuff is okay with me, spreading plague can be played around to an extend, but how do you play around branching paths + "well played" emote?

I mostly hate how it feels like the druid can just ignore me the whole game. I play minions, buff minions, make trades. They gain armor, gain more armor, occasionally swipe something, and then drop spreading plague. Then they press their "I win" button and it's game over. It's like playing against face hunter, but in reverse. Then again I mostly play Odd Paly, so I probably shouldn't be talking about skill-based play . . .

I love your content! Glad to hear that you got your first sponsorship!

Thoughts on the new expansion?

It's been months and I still *sigh* every time I'm matched up vs a Druid or Baku Warrior, since I play mainly tempo decks and I have to play near perfect to beat them every single time.

Congrats on the sponsorship! I'm so glad you're progressing, you deserve it.

4:20 2 cost Malygos + 4 cost Floop Malygos + Swipe + Twig of the World Tree deathrattle + Swipe + Moonfire + Moonfire. 40 OTK damage from the hand and complete board clear only for the enemy. Keeping your health up or controlling the board isn't going to help you at all especially since Druid can do this as early turn 8.

Kripperino isn't around so... 1:28 Skip ad 15:05 Skip video

Scrambling to make a video on an expansion after just finishing another video is like a tradition here. Can't wait for your peniless impressions! Also, congrats on the sponsorship deal, I hope many more opportunities like that come to you next

druid starting to get hated is from the damn jade.

Congrats on the new sponsorship! Keep up the good work! :D

Congrats on sponsorship hope u get youtube sorted keep it awesome man

One other important thing I think is crucial is bringing the general power level of cards down. One big problem (in my opinion) is that cards are just too strong right now, which also leads to polarization. The issue isn't just dealing with Druid, the issue is finding room to deal with druid whilst also trying to fend off the dozen other cutthroat decks in the meta, any of which can easily destroy you if you're not fully dedicated to beating or surviving them. While it's certainly possible to build a deck that can chew through the armies of scarabs and dozens of armor points to kill druids, it's an utter pain to run those decks against anything that isn't druid.

Congrats on the sponsorship!!

Congratulations on the sponsorship :D

Can't wait for the polarity meta explanation video! also good job on this one :)

I honestly don't see many Druids at all.

How is druid winrate against druid not equal to 50%? For every druid that loses the matchup, there is one that wins?

sponsorship from massdrop? holy shit, congrats!!!

I've been trying to argue this in forums for months. What druid needs is tools that give it an option not to play ramp.

Easy answer to the branching paths problems suggested for aggro. Make branching paths a 5 mana card anyways. Its too powerful for 4 mana, because the 12 armor is already more flexible than greater healing potion. The +2 is still less of a finisher than the +3 from bloodlust. However, it stays with your minions as a benefit. And draw 2 is still okay at 5 mana, because its offers more flexibility options than nourish does anyways. it would likely stop seeing use as a scry in general, but its other 2 effects are still powerful anyways. And it no longer turn 10 combos with spreading plague either. Or if it stays 4 mana, make the just make the attack gain and end of turn like blood lust. So if the opponent puts up a second wall of sorts, it isnt still marched over with ease.

Literally I cannot fathom how none of those cards have been touched. So many pro players (as well as much of our community) scream and rant about nerfing spreading plague!

Well it looks like next expansion might help druids case. It appears to be going back to the, bite to win, aggressive variant that existed VERY early on. Based off of its description and savagery on a stick. Only time will tell if it is strong enough though.

Ayy man that's so fulfilling to see underrated channels get bigger, i'm happy you start to get sponsorships, and good luck for the future!

I need a new headset, lets try....Wait 50 Heartstonepacks ? ! ok no earphones

While I disagree on Druid decks not because by especially powerful (Raw numbers are meaningless without context), this is a very nice video explanation of the Druid problem; it's the ultimate form of meta polarization. Every Druid deck is the same, and in this meta? That means you win or you lose at the start of the game, Moreno then any other class.

good point there: blizz has created many archetypes that never got touched again (take freeze shaman, for example; its bad when you get just a few packs, few legs, and you think you can play something different but then those said cards never truly show up since they are not powerfull enough by themselves to stand ground and dont have any means of support to help them to see the light of the match). i just hope druid gets a decent leg (class leg, not neutral like tug) that provides him support for other archetypes. this way we could see less combo, wich, at least in my oppinion, sucks, since you have just litte interaction with to fight against it, and when you have it, all what you have to do is to destroy one of the combo pieces with dirty rat, gnomuferatu or demonic project - lets not forget what druid has to offer for wild mode.

I personally see a very distinct problem with the solution you offer in the video: Creating a new archetype for Druid (which I support) will not kill the existing Druid decks, which will continue to be unfun and uninteractive to play against. The reason for this I feel is not that they all feel similar but that the entire match will often be decided purely on how well the druid draws, in regards to UI, BP, SP etc.. This holds especially true for Aggressive and Tempo decks. If they have SP by turn 5-8 you lose, if they don't you win. It just feels so unrewarding to play a game and be like "Well they have SP , guess I can't win". This wouldn't be so much of a problem if they did not win every control matchup by default (Well, except Odd warrior sometimes). That means that there just is no space to "outplay" druids , it's purely based on luck and/or matchup. Especially because nowadays as an aggressive/tempo deck you can absolutely not afford to play around SP , since it's not uncommon for druids to gain 10-25 Armor in one turn if you relieve the pressure just one bit. So in conclusion: No druid is not OP but the unfun nature of the deck (being a combo deck that has 2 fantastic anti:aggro cards that almost win you the game immediately) makes it not balancable in a satisfying way. So yes druid should get one maybe even two viable new archetypes, but at the same time the combo archetypes should be heavily weakened in one way or another to avoid frustration amongst the community

I present to you the worst case scenario "fix": *Blizzard misinterprets what you mean, moves wild growth and nourish to the hall of fame. Ignores negative feedback like warsong commander*

I'd agree with your suggestion, if only because I enjoy aggressive playstyles. I thoroughly enjoyed a Druid deck of old you forgot to mention - Aggro Token Druid. In Ungoro and KoFT, Druid had that variety you mentioned.

Armor gain seem to be an issue for me as well, because when a druid can gain more armor than an odd warrior there has to be a problem

Did you forget about aggro druid?... people were running aggro druid like crazy for a couple months last year. Living mana gave rise to it, but there was 0 ramp there. Honestly no one plays treant druid in ranked, but if you play it yourself you will find its actually quite powerful, assuming you get an alright hand.

What annoys me is that on top of having Spreading plague, druid kind of "naturally" sits on Warrior-Level amounts of Armor while drawing like crazy

You just made me realize that the next standard meta may only have 2 hero cards. That is kind of crazy.

One thing though, each class has their core mechanics. Demons + HP use + draw, Armor + buffing hurt minions + taunts, etc. Druids is Choose effect and RAMP. Giving a more varied game play would be good, but considering its a core mechanic of the class.. Well, if I hadn't stopped playing many many months ago I'd be quite upset if they gutted the core of a class just to improve a temporary meta. Especially when it's not even warranted.

There’s even a triple win condition druid now

I miss when token Druid meant summoning weak minions and buffing then for a OTK, not pulling out 4 cost minions and gaining armor

Druid is a class with limited options because there are 8 more classes to choose from and every one of them is already good at something

Just got some new Massdrop stuff, nice sponsorship!

I actually like Druid's playstyle, he just needs less powerful end game. Printing Aggro won't fix anything, the Ramp still exists and "limiting design space"

Whoa, the sponsor spot is like ~8% of the video

You're in the big leagues now.

7:22 says choose one, textcard says choose twice

I look forward to you reviewing the New Warlock Thanos card. With a snap of your fingers and 8 mana you can reduce the game's card population by half.

And the nerf are here. What will druid have after this?

i disagree with the point that evenlock counters druid as i think druid has too much defense armour gain and board control, i think deathrattle hunter is the only real counter, btw good job on the sponsorship you deserve it

I genuinely think if you make branching path cost 5 to slightly hinder the ridiculous armor gain, and make spreading plague either 7 or 8 cost, I think you fix the issue. Druid continues to hold on to its strategies. It feels bad when you hit the 10 turn and you have a board advantage, with like a 10 health lead and in one turn, Druid can pull out up to 7 taunts and then gain 12 armor all in one turn. And at that point your already know UI or even more armor ramp is coming the next turn.

This is why kibler saves hearthstone with odd druid

YES I STARTED PLAYING THIS GAME BACK IN DECEMBER OF LAST YEAR I ENTERED RANK 12 THIS LAST SEASON AND OH LORD I NEVER HATED DRUID MUCH MORE THAN I DID THIS LAST MONTH.

Tldw: too many strong cards which result in 98.54% of the druids lists using the same 25 cards with the 5 remaining being some kind of combo

Zoo Druid used to be visible in Wild until Odd and Even decks emerged. Zoo Druid has to use cards to go wide while Odd Paladin and Even Shaman go wide for free. Baku and Genn killed the zoo archetype since they just do it better.

Bluetooth headphones for a gaming laptop? only if you want to die before you hear the bang

My problem with Druid isn’t staleness. It’s not similar gameplay between archetypes that makes it annoying. It’s the fact that it’s better at armor gain than the armor gain class (warrior). It’s the fact that it’s identity of ramp has two, non adjusted since release, classic cards that have survived every meta. It’s the fact that it has the most card draw capacity out of all classes. Druid wasn’t necessarily given too much POWER, it was given too many OPTIONS. Take the armor gaining away and the main form of defense turns into taunting (not as strong). Take away the card draw and it’s stuck with ramping and playing big (not as strong). In the current state I’ve never seen Druid lose/concede in those “bad draw rng” situations because, unless the best aggro pulls off top tier draw and opening, there is always an option by turn 4. Druids adjustment needs to be more than just archetype change. It needs a single identity back like the other classes have.

To me, what makes Druid un-fun to play against isn't so much in their ability to ramp.. if it was just ramping and drawing cards I would be able to develop a board and then hopefully swing into their Lich King , Dreampetal, Tyrantus or whatever. The problems I think you glanced over are having 1 and 2 mana removal spells in naturalize and spellstone, having aoe removal in swipe and some decks running starfall, cheap reliable armor gain in ferocious howl, branching paths, and oaken summons (and if they're running this you have to deal with a well stated taunt or violet teacher), THEN once you're through that phase you get hit with the death knight and spreading plague which wouldn't be a problem to take down the 1/5's if the board I tried to develop didn't get destroyed by woven in 1 and 2 mana spells. AND whenever they cast nourish, spreading, or UI it comes with a 0 mana 4/4 in arcane tyrant. It's so much to deal with and while you're trying to bust through they're drawing even more and gaining armor better than warrior ffs. sure, druid is beatble, but you end up playing a long drawn out game of solitaire and it isn't fun. it's never. you never feel good about the win its just "wow I survived."

a problem I'm having with hs is that blizz keeps introducing new cards and mechanics, only for them to not see any play. A lot of classes feel like they've barely grown since witchwood. whole lot of boomsday left unexplored. To say nothing of all the cards that will rotate and have rotated with little to no play. I know i want more things to do in paladin than hero power. or ramp for druid.

I made a druid deck that uses all the ramp but then just drops 8+ minions, it has no minion bellow 8 mana and is actually great fun to play. It was the rams deck i wanted to play when the game first came out, it awful but great

Hope druids can rumble like trolls, Pennyless!

you can rip astral tiger druid from my cold dead hands...

Druid Will die when Frozen throne goes away anyway

Well, the only druid card we've seen so far in the next expancion seems to be announce some kind or aggresive druid, so maybe they're doing something good there

“I’m playing secret druid”

I think the true Problem is the Choose mechanic and the complexity of the Druid cards. When they draw branching pathes they actually draw 6 cards at once. Sure four of them get discarded if you use two, but this makes druid very flexible vs all encounters. Some cards are just too damn good. I just cant understand why wild growth gives a card at 10 mana. I dont understand why you can choose the same path in branching path twice. I dont accept that UI can go face. It feels like the assigned designers for druid cards are just more generous than for the other classes. I dont know if they work like that but it just certainly feels that way. Another problem are the lengthy annoying animations which all sound and look the same. some green rings appear and a fartsound plays. yeah very interesting to watch a druid play the ramp game.

Druid decks are so similar you can combine 3 of them into 1

Force+roar was never an otk deck (how could it be, the combo did 14 damage, or 22 with 2 roars, not 30). It was just a finisher you put in every druid deck except aggro. That made it even worse than an otk combo the entire deck revolves around, because it was so cheap and easy to pull off there was no reason to not use it Also Nourish wasn't always a core card, in fact most decks used to run 1 or none. There were less incentives to rush to ten mana, and Druid had another card draw cards, Azure Drake and Ancient of Lore, so adding 2 nourish would've been an overkill. Again, Druid decks didn't use to be combo based, they had the force+roar combo but that wasn't the win condition, so the heavy ramp and draw seen in modern decks wasn't necessary And btw Blizzard didn't release Ultimate, Spreading and Malfurion as a response to the Ungoro cards performing poorly as those cards were released in the first expansion after Ungoro. Blizzard designs the cards well in advance and they'll definitely not wait until a few months before the expansion launches to see what the meta looks like to decide what they release. When Ungoro launched, Frozen Throne was probably already fully designed and more or less balanced, and they just focused on the technical aspects, coding the cards in and testing for bugs and performance

You got a sponsorship, so now you aren't penniless anymore!

Yo blizzard is making hand buff warlock a thing

Spiteful druid still has ramp with that 3 mana 3/1 with deathrattle gain an empty mana crystal

If I use massdrop will you send me some of the objects you quilted

I just end up playing Big Spell mage, my overall winrate against all classes is fairly positive and I haven't lost to a druid yet (mainly just see taunt druids).

congratulations on the sponsorship and i hope you get more , because i hope to see more videos from you

Damn penniless, what a bad time to upload the video, and it seems like a lot of time went into this, probably should’ve uploaded it once the hearthstone panel was done. Hope this doesn’t hurt you that much.

Congrats for the sponsorship! I find your videos quite informative and interesting, you definitely have a channel that should last a long time and I hope you can get to the "self-sustaining level" :-)

You said that Druid has no real control options. While this is true, the real problem for me is the amount of armor gain they have, which, in itself, is an incredibly strong DEFENSIVE option. Druids can almost double their health bar by turn 4, which means they literally negate a couple turns of damage from aggro decks and make some combo otk decks (like velen) no longer in kill range. I don’t know if my solution is the best, but I believe blizzard should add a new effect called “fading scales” that replaces Druid armor in which the armor is reduced by a bit every couple turns. This would still make armor a good option vs aggro but it would make otk matchups like Velen more skill oriented as they would have to plan out when to armor up.

There was an aggro midrange Druid deck before giggling nerf though

The problem with druid is the armor. Without it they die before the combo.

The only problem I have with druid is the armor gain. That's supposed to be warriors thing

Malfurion heropower changed to +2 Branching path to +4 armor and Ui to 4 cards, 4 armor 4/4 minion and Druid will not be op anymore but still playable

Could we make beast druid as good as pirate warrior? Druid's control game is generally ramp or we used to have Spiteful summoner just holding off for the big tempo play. We got here with powerful card draw and armor cards as well as Spreading Plague being a very useful control option, if we give early game aggression that doesn't need ramp then some of the savage roar win conditions will move there. Or maybe a control deck that doesn't ramp, I'm still not sure but there's probably a clever way to make a deck without Spiteful Summoner (6) as a conditional massive tempo play. Or maybe that's just their idea of Druid's control game, relatively weak spells but early on you can ramp up your mana to play them more or sooner than their labled cost.

How about introducing more ways to deal with plague?

how about a card with a qualifier that goes "if you have less than x mana gain y" or something to that effect