Heaven, Hell, and Universal Salvation | Robert Wright & David Bentley Hart [The Wright Show] 

50:48 “The end of creation is for Creation to become like the burning bush, pervaded by the Glory of God but not consumed.” Wow

David Bentley Hart is the Jimi Hendrix of my Faith.

I was the actor with the last line in THE TRUMAN SHOW. Enjoyed this conversation very much. I was a universalist, intuitively at 8 or 9 going through Lutheran parochial education. Years later I stumbled on to Tillich's History of Christian Thought, and learned about Origen. That confirmed that intuition along with DBH. God bless y'all for this offering!!!

This man is a tremendous scholar and a brilliant elucidator of classical theism

Love DBH!! Great interview

David Bentley Hart is a fucking intellectual monster

Wonderful interview...both questions and answers. Thought-provoking and satisfying. Thank you!

I love Hart, and personally find his work compelling. Unfortunately, he interacts with dialogue partners as if their arguments are to be burned off/eternally condemned, rather than distortions of what is good or else at least proximate/relative goods. In that way, he does not argue *as* a universalist, but *for* universalism. The result is that his views tend to alienate rather than unite those who disagree. If we act out our more fundamental beliefs, I wonder where is heart is? A harsh and judgmental question, but I’d love to talk it out with him.

Great discussion. The only problem is that it felt too short.

What a supremely concise and well spoken man.

John Paul II, General Audience, Dec. 27, 1978 - “Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity become a man; and therefore in Jesus, human nature and therefore the whole of humanity, is redeemed, saved, ennobled to the extent of participating in ‘divine life’ by means of Grace.” John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio (# 4), Dec. 7, 1990 - “The Redemption event brings salvation to all, ‘for each one is included in the mystery of the redemption and with each one Christ has united himself forever through this mystery.’”

Fantastic

all will be saved in his own order

DBG is next level. 🙏

Yes all means all.

I do not share DBH's position, but he is always an excellent read or listen.... great conversation.

I’m surprised Wright didn’t pick him up on the fact that if “eternal” is to be reinterpreted in Biblical passages regarding punishment as “for an age”, or something like that, then it must also be reinterpreted in the passages that are right next to those regarding reward.

Very intresting, this is the way i was thaugt christianity at shool in the 70:s (Sweden). And yes, i am not a materialist either.

Never seen RW so quiet, hes always jumping in with his own arguments. DBH is a serious intellectual then!

Another way to think about it is that if god wills the good, he cant fail to bring about the good, and that our having free will is perfectly compatable with his will, because our wills necessarily align with his when sin is removed from the world

I want to recommend DBH's book The Devil and Pierre Gernet. He's a really underrated writer of fiction.

Robert Right sounds like he wants to be sure he does not go to hell.

This brilliant exchange serves to demonstrate that the true 'cherry-pickers' in "bible-believing Churchianity" are the 'scriptural literalists: who prefer one translation over another, and one 'meaning' over another. Many of them despise the notion that God's love can be so all-encompassing, that he even loves the people they hate and despise. (Oh yes, we all know God is a God of justice: but not as they intend that word!). I am currently reading the two books, by David Bentley Hart you mention here: but much of my personal library is filled with 'Christology' and 'Jesus-Studies'; because it is the MAN, the young Jew, the charismatic human being I want to recover from the Church. It was not the 'Second Person of the Trinity' who persuaded men to stop what they were doing to follow him: it was 'just' a young male Jew. But in the 'event' that was that young male Jew, the Creator God of Israel was active.

what a great convo! I hands-down love how testy he gets about various traditions, and his breezy dismissiveness of other's opinions. He's earned the right to be the cranky philosopher, he put in the work, while the rest of us are merely repeating what others repeat.

Even though God is behind creation, that doesn't mean that God is behind everything that happens within creation. Since certain creations, such as ourselves, have been given free will and are capable of being creators in our own right; including creating suffering for ourselves and others. This particular misunderstanding, that God is causing our suffering and perhaps punishing us, is one of the most dangerous misunderstanding promoted by religious teachers; for how can we become free from suffering if we don't understand what's causing it? As long as we believe that lie, we will blame God or others, or our circumstances for our suffering and not see that we are the ones responsible for our suffering. Our mistaken thinking, and the negative emotions and negative actions that flow from our thoughts causes our suffering. Depending on what we choose to believe, and how we choose to respond to life; we create more Love in the world or the opposite. When we choose to express the opposite of Love or cause harm, it is not God that is at fault. God gifted us with the freedom to choose and to create, and we eventually learn from our choices to be better creators; to create happiness instead of suffering, and it is suffering that teaches us this; suffering points us away from what is anti-life, anti-Love. Our own personal suffering is the so-called "punishment" we receive for making choices that are not aligned with Love; that is the only "punishment", if we will, meted out by God. We are designed to suffer whenever we miss the mark, which is the meaning of sin; the mark, the target or goal, is Love. We suffer whenever we fall out of alignment with Love. Suffering and joy are part of the guidance system we've been given; the homing device, which when followed, will bring us back home to Love. Suffering tells us that we are believing a lie or taking a wrong direction; while joy tells us the opposite. If we don't want to suffer, then we must stop believing or doing what causes us and others suffering; and start believing and doing what brings peace, Love and joy.

Because you have to have these types of discussions it just shows there is a contradiction. Thanks for making it so confusing All knowing God.

I FULLY AGREE, HOW CAN YOU HAVE FREEWILL IF THREATENED WITH ETERNAL HELLFIRE. YOU THEREFORE ARE THREATENED TO OBEY ,IF NOT YOU NOT ONLY DIE YOU SUFFER EXTERNALLY. WHO IS IN CHARGE OF SUCH A PLACE IF THE DEVIL IS DEFEATED IN THE END DAYS. MAKES NO SENSE TO ME OF A LOVING GOD, JUST END THE LIVES OF THE UNBELIVEING. WHY ETERNAL PUNISHMENT FOR ONLY A LIFETIME OF SIN.😢

"...not even Sam Harris" haha.

But what if Sam Harris not going to hell is my personal hell?

What about the part in Romans ( i think it's Romans) where Paul is desperate to save the jews, it definitely seems like Paul was trying to save people from Hell

18:00 About Revelation: ‘people who tell you they understand what the book is about are lying, to either you or their selves’ 😂

46:40 Is DBH fiddling with a rosary?

55:22 bookmark

36:10 (or thereabouts) Aha. Here’s the problem-if you zoom out to the ultimate outcome of Creation as “the will of an omnipotent Creator”, it is easy to miss the details of what precisely He has willed. But this, I’d argue is exactly what’s in question here. If DBH is right -that God wills the final outcome the way you or I might draft a painting, then God at some point must interfere with our freedom in order to *guarantee* Creation as ultimately good. If however, he has willed that we are free eternally -and omnipotently preserves this by NOT interfering, it remains possible that we could turn from Him, such that our created freedom remains in tact. But maybe I’m missing something. Would love to discuss…

Is that an FE map in the background?

We are all deceived to the four corners of the earth!

Strangely, the universalism conversation is ultimately not about the afterlife, but who and how we are right now. It boils down to The nature of persons- between now and the end of life, can someone irreparably damage himself or not? ‘Infernalists’ say yes, universalists say no. From science so far and your own personal experience, what do you say?

Nowhere in the Bible is universal salvation taught. Quite the opposite even from the mouth of Jesus himself.

I see his point about 1Cor 15. However, verse two needs more explaining.

10:30 😂 the Roman Church has been making it harder and harder to get into Hell.

shoulda said at the beginning: "ask and you will receive" smh theologians overthinking things

why does the guy in left look so mad?

No faith. We believe by faith and penned many times in the scriptures.

Prisca Theologia

Jesus taught and practiced unconditional love therefore God is unconditional love. The idea of hell and God judging us and sending us there is the polar opposite of unconditional love. No such place as Hell. God does not judge. God does not need a blood sacrifice. Those are all old Old Testament ideas. All of that negativity contradicts unconditional love. The Kingdom of Heaven is within. The Kingdom of Hell is within. Hell is a self-imposed condition. The Prodigal Son experienced hell and that suffering changed him and brought him home.

A living sophist.

I cringed to desth when he couldnt get any of DBH jokes and took it seriously

Interestingly enough, Zoroastrianism seems to be the first religion that articulates this sort of eschatological vision of an apoctasis, a universal restoration. And Zoroastrianism wasn't an abrahamic religion at all, but was most closely related to the religions of India.

The libertarian freedom its impossible. Its against fundamental laws of Physics in this universe. If you believe in God, you also believe God created those laws that forbide libertarian free will.

It comes down to do you believe Jesus Christ or this man. I know who I trust.

So Satan will be in heaven along with Judas?

You have to define "salvation". If you take it to mean everybody is elevated to union with God in heaven, that is not what the Bible and Christianity teach.

54:26 At this point Mr Hart shows that he is not orthodox (big or small o) as he implies doubt that we have Jesus' words in the Gospels. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus affirms the absolute truth and importance of his words as being essential for our salvation and eternal life. He affirms his words will never pass away, and that believers are to keep his words and thereby have God live in them. For him to imply doubt on the truth of the Gospel record "what he is reported to have said" is anti-christian.

Great interview. I would have asked if he is looking forward to worshiping Christ next to Hitler ;)

Pope St. Gregory the Great taught that ungodly and unbelieving men are consigned to eternal punishment. (Morals on Job, Book 34). Justin Martyr: "For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan and the Devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings; and that he would be sent into the fire with his host and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold." Saint Irenaeus: "Moreover he says the Book of Life was opened and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books according to their works, and death and hell were sent into the Lake of Fire, the second death. Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal fire. And if anyone, it is said, was not found written in the Book of Life, he was sent into the Lake of Fire." Saint Cyprian: "As God as he is merciful so he exacts obedience to his precepts; and indeed carefully exacts it. And as he invites to the banquet, so the man that hath not a wedding garment he binds hands and feet and casts them out beyond the assembly of the saints. He has prepared Heaven, but he has also prepared Hell. He has prepared places of refreshment, but he has also prepared eternal punishment. He has prepared the life that none can approach unto. But he has also prepared the vast and eternal gloom of perpetual night." Lactantius: "Both therefore spoke with truth, but yet both incorrectly. For the ways themselves ought to have been referred to life, their ends to death. We therefore speak better and more truly who say that the two ways belong to heaven and hell because immortality is promised to the righteous and everlasting punishment is threatened to the unrighteous." St. John Chrysostom: "We know that salvation itself is a property of the One Church, and that no one can be outside of the catholic Church and yet share the Faith of Christ, or be saved...Neither do we offer any part of that hope to the ungodly heretics, but we place them entirely outside of that hope; indeed, they have not the least participation in Christ, but vainly assume for themselves that saving Name.” (Migne P. G. 59:725). St. John Chrysostom: "...if we commit countless sins it is possible to wash them all away by manifesting repentance for our offenses: but when once we have departed to the other world even if we display the most earnest repentance it will be of no avail...but we shall only hear those words which the rich man heard in the parable, "Between us and you a great gulf has been fixed." (A Exhortation to Theodore After His Fall 1.9). St. Augustine: "Outside the Catholic Church everything may be had except salvation. One may have orders and Sacraments, one may sing Alleluia and answer Amen, one may hold the Gospel, one may have and preach in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, but nowhere except in the Catholic Church can one find salvation." (PL. Vo. 43, pp. 689-698). St. Fulgence of Ruspe (468-533 A.D.): "Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that no person baptized outside the Catholic Church can become a participant of eternal life if, before the end of this life, he has not returned and been incorporated into the Catholic Church." (Migne, PL Vo. 65. pp. 671-706). St. Pope Gregory the Great (540-604 A.D.): "The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside her will not be saved." (Moralia, Lib. XIV, Cap. V. n. 5. PL, Tom. LXXV. col. 1043). St. Lactantius (240-320 A.D.): "Therefore, it is the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth, this is the abode of the faith, this is the temple of God; into which if any one shall not enter, or from which if any shall go out, he is estranged from the hope of life and eternal salvation." (Divinarum Institutionum--The Divine Institutes, Book IV, Chapter 30: See also: Ante-Nicene Fathers, Lactantius, Vol. 7. Edited by Philip Schaff, Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody. Mass., Second Printing, 1999, p. 133). Tertullian: "It is determined by law that nobody can be saved without baptism." (De bapt. 12, 1). He also spoke of "eternal punishment" (The Prescription Against Heretics, XIII).

St. Cyprian denies salvation to all those who secede from the Church (De eccl. cath. unit. 6). The following quotes are from the book, "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs," by Bercot, pp. 150-150. The sources are provided in the book. Lactantius: ..."This is the everlasting temple. If anyone has not sacrificed in this, he will not have the reward of immortality"... St. Cyprian: "Likewise, neither can he be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the church." St. Cyprian: "There is no salvation outside of the church." St. Cyprian: ..."remission of sins is not granted except in the church." St. Cyprian: "The house of God is one, and there can be no salvation to anyone except in the church." St. Irenaeus ( 125-202) speaks of "eternal darkness" (Against Heresies, 4.39.4) and "the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending" (ibid., 5. 27. 2). Justin Martyr refers to "everlasting punishment," (The First Apology of Justin, 8); "eternal punishment" (ibid., 18). From his Apology, we see Justin using the phrases: "To undergo everlasting punishment" "To the everlasting punishment of fire" "Suffer punishment in eternal fire" "Eternal punishment is laid up" "Are punished in everlasting fire" "Brings eternal punishment by flames" "Punished in eternal fire" "In eternal fire shall suffer their just punishment and penalty" "The wicked are punished in eternal fire" St. Augustine uses the words "eternal fire of hell" "eternal death" "eternal punishment" "punishment eternal" "punishment eternal shall come to an end, is the height of absurdity" "eternal punishment of those who are doomed to it shall have no end." (City of God, 4.13; 6.12; 21.23). St. Theophilus (130-190) speaks of the damned as "ever deprived of the enjoyment of light" and he used the phrase "eternal punishment" (Theophilus to Autolycus). St. John Chrysostom: "...even if we commit countless sins it is possible to wash them all away by manifesting repentance for our offenses: but when once we have departed to the other world even if we display the most earnest repentance it will be of no avail avail, not even if we gnash our teeth, beat our breasts, and utter innumerable calls for succor, no one with the tip of his finger will apply a drop to our burning bodies, but we shall only hear those words which the rich man heard in the parable, "Between us and you a great gulf has been fixed." (A Exhortation to Theodore After His Fall). Origen spoke of "eternal fire and punishments." (De Principiis, preface). The Athanasian Creed says: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly." 4 Maccabees: "...A great struggle and peril of the soul awaits in eternal torment those who transgress the ordinance of God. (see 9:9; 10:11. 15; 12:12; 13:15). The Jewish historian Josephus also spoke of eternal Hell, using the words "unquenchable fire" "everlasting punishment" "eternal punishment" "never ceasing grief" (see Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades). Even the philosopher Plato held to eternal punishment. (see Georgias 525c). St. Isaiah of Scetis spoke of eternal death. (The Evergetinos A Complete Text, bk. 1; St. Isaiah of Scetis, Matericon: Instructions of Abba Isaiah the the Honorable Nun Theodora (Translated from St. Theophan the Recluse's Russian translation of the Greek manuscript from Mt. Athos). St. Isaiah of Scetis spoke of everlasting fire. (St. Isaiah of Scetis, Matericon: Instructions of Abba Isaiah to the Honorable Nun Theodora). St. Ephraim the Syrian spoke of eternal punishment. (The Works of Saint Ephraim the Syrian, vol 4) (in Greek). St. Cyril of Alexandria spoke of eternal grief, unending sorry, ceaseless weaping. (Homily on the Departure of the Soul, Homily 13, PG 77 (in Greek). The Venerable Bede spoke of everlasting torments. (St. Bede, A History of the English Church and People). St. Theodoros the Great Ascetic, Bishop of Edessa spoke of the worm that does not die. (St. Theodora, A Century of Spiritual Texts in The Philokalia, vol 2. In the original Greek, vol 1). St. Ignatius Brianchaninov spoke of eternal death. (Partial trans. in The Soul After Death). The Synod of ROCOR spoke of eternal torment. (Orthodox Life, vol. 31, no 1). Archimandrite Panteleimon Nizhnik spoke of the eternal fate common to evil angels and evil human souls. (Eternal Mysteries Beyond the Grave). St. John Maxomovitch spoke about how deceased souls fear eternal torment which begins after the Dread Judgment. (Man of God. St. John of Shanghai and San Fransisco). Elder Ephraim. "if we lose our soul the misfortune is eternal." (The Departure of the Soul According to the Teaching of the Orthodox Church, p. 51) The Akathist to the Icon of the Most Holy Mother of God, "The inexhaustible Cup": "deliver is from eternal condemnation".. The Akathist to St. Photios, Patriarch of Constantinople asks to be delivered from everlasting torment. The Akathist to the New-Martyr Elizabeth, Grand Duchess of Russia requests that prayer be made to the Lord to be delivered from everlasting torment. Eternal conscious punishment has been affirmed by orthodox theology from the earliest time down through the Reformation into the modern era (see W.G.T. Shedd, Eternal Punishment). Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and Fr. Aidan Kimel are heretics who deny Christian teaching, so I will quote the admonition of St. Ignatius: "Brethren be not deceived. If any man follows him that separates from the truth, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God; and if any man does not stand aloof from the preacher of falsehood, he shall be condemned to hell." (Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians, 4).

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2 NIV For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 NIV

.. The Blind leading the Blind.

I find him an annoying interviewer

Hart has no clue about the afterlife. Why do we think a brainy scholar who hasn't died yet can have any idea about this subject? I don't like conjuring the spirit of Richard Dawkins here but his rant about theology being baloney sort of rings very true here. Tho Dawkins is mistaking theology for actual metaphysics, maybe, but people like David Bentley Hart think their personal education, which sure is profound, is a clue to the afterlife (so they call their egotism 'theology'). So they come to a studio and navel gaze. We see this all the time in our culture. Joe Rogan sometimes asks a super genius physicist or a top AI guy about the beyond and the super genius physicist ot the top AI guy gives their brainy answer. But the brainy answer is just their personal egotism (what Dawkins surely calls theology).

So sad.

Pompous and theologically heretical. Curious how some people confuse big words for true words.

shoulda said at the beginning: "ask and you will receive" smh theologians overthinking things