I’m shooting a Mathews VXR. 28” draw @ 70# .. My arrows are 605 gr. Without a lighted knock. On the chrono they are repping 235fps.. the difference in time between a setup shooting 300fps or even 200fps is very minimal. Especially when it comes to shots 30 yards and in. I decided to go heavy because I typically shoot forward (close to shoulder, not in it) and i want that peace of mind incase I pull my shot, the animal moves, etc .. here’s my theory. Shoot what your comfortable with and PRACTICE! … great video!
@@austinphillips9966 I can speak for trajectory on my own setup. I am shooting a 339 fps ibo rated bow (we all know how accurate that truly is, but it at least gives a general baseline for speed). 27.5” draw length and shooting 580 gr arrow. Last season I was shooting 420-450 gr hunting arrows. My trajectory at HUNTING distances hasn’t changed drastically. My 20 yard pin didn’t move at all, 30 yard was maybe 2” low from old setup, and 40 was roughly 6” low from the initial placement. Yes the trajectory is slightly more extreme with heavier arrows but it’s not a deal breaker to me coming from a location where 30 yards on a deer is a longer shot
The heavy arrow movement is finally being questioned by a lot of people. Balance is key between trajectory and penetration. You definitely touched on this. I've taken 2 bull moose, a bull elk, and countless large whitetails with arrows substantially lighter than what you presented in your video (355 grains total weight). Penetration was not an issue with any of them as my KE was very high and I chose small diameter fixed blade heads. I kept an offside shoulder blade of one of the moose that my arrow smashed through at 55 yards. Overkill is just that, balance and results are key.
I’m probably going to get a lot of hate for this, but I shoot 60lbs at 28”, and my arrow is roughly 345gr and I shoot a mechanical broadhead. I’ve only killed one deer with a bow but that setup was deadly. I shot a doe slightly quartering away at 30 yards and I punched through a rib and broke the off side shoulder.
I think heavy arrows are okay but it needs to depend I believe on 3 things 1. Draw length 2. Draw Weight and 3. Would be tuning all 3 of them should factor in on you shooting a heavier arrow
For Whitetails I shoot 715 grains w/ 25% FOC going 241 fps chronographed. Last season I shot a big body 8 point quartering towards at 28 yards. With his left front leg behind his right front leg, I aimed at his heart and let the arrow fly. It blew through him like he wasn't even there, breaking both his front legs and cutting off the top of his heart. Suprisingly, he was still able to run 30 yards with his face and rack plowing the dirt. He weighed 244 lb dressed out. Heaviest deer I ever killed. Now, I have no doubt a 400 grain arrow could have zipped right threw him as well so long as I waited for him to present a more traditional broadside shot and avoided the shoulders.
This is actually the main point of shooting heavy arrows ... it allows you to take a high percentage shot even of the presentation by the animal is not ideal. In South Africa very, very few hunts are not payed hunts so you don't want to risk leaving the hunting farm empty handed just because no animal presented a "perfect" broad side shot during your hunting weekend. The challenge is exacerbated if you walk and stalk. Good range finders and adjustable sights available these days make the trajectory issue almost a moot point. The challenge during all of these debates, is providing the necessary context from which you are arguing. Once the context is clearly defined, a lot of the senseless arguments will disappear.
I used to have penetration issues with my old bow and mechanicals (rage). It was a 60 lb bow and I was only getting 260fps with a 430 gr arrow (it had a long brace height). Once I got a new bow I knew I wanted to go heavier. Bc I shoot a 31 inch draw I’m able to get a 508 gr arrow to go 270 now at only 63 lbs. IMO it’s a reasonably heavy arrow without going crazy and still get decent speed. I added fixed blades to the mix but I’m also testing sevr broadheads this year as well. I don’t see myself having anymore penetration issues in the future 😂
Having a long draw length sure helps! It sounds like you’ve found a good balance of heavy while still getting decent speed. That was one of my reasons for making this video!
I shoot no more than 20 yds with 61#. I was sick of not getting pass throughs with a light arrow and expandables. I went to a 490 gr. With 14% foc and same expandables(G5 deadmeats) now I'm driving my arrow deeper at 40 than my buddy does with his 390 gr. At 70 #!
I went from shooting a light arrow with mechanicals (400 grains) to shooting a heavy arrow with fixed blades (600 grains) and was confident with both setups. Made the switch because I was scared I might make a bad shot and lose a deer. I’ve now shifted to the moderate weight arrow with fixed heads. (450ish grains). I Will see how they work out this season. My pin gaps were CRAZY with the heavy arrow
Thanks for taking the time to make this video. Pros and cons are presented nicely. I would like to see the test done a little differently though. Would it be possible to zero your sight with light arrow at 20 yards, then shoot your target at 25 yards but keep your sight at 20 yards; and zero your sight with heavy arrow at 20 yards then shoot target at 25 yards and keep your sight at 20 yds? I am curious how much drop you get.
I shoot a 545gr arrow 29.5" draw 75 lb weight. I don't notice alot of arrow drop untill you go past 30 yds. 20-30 yd pin gap isn't bad 30-40 is a huge gap. Love the setup for my whitetail hunts in IL but it becomes difficult when I mule deer hunt in SD . You have to be sure of your range when you shoot long distances
@@HUNTERSADVANTAGE yeah im not building another arrow set up for one week in SD. I just try to stalk into 40yds or less. I can shoot accurate out to 70 but that's a hell of alot of time for an animal to react
Ok, so that was a year ago when you did this video. Since then, a lot of bowhunters have been shifting to the heavier arrow setup and fixed blade heads. Instead of personal experiences, I think its's because of what they see on RU-vid videos and channels like The Hunting Public, (which I love and support everything they say and do!!), and some others channels also. After 50+ years of bowhunting experience and killing many whitetails, from young to old and from small to large, I can tell you for a personal fact, that if you make a bad hit, it doesn't matter one hoot if the arrow is light or heavy. Arrow placement and tracking skills is what matters. Today's hunters are trying to tip the scales of recovery in their favor by using large cut expandable's and recover deer that were marginally hit, sometimes intentionally. YES, intentionally. This is a very bad precedence to be teaching our new hunters. For the record, I shoot a 500gr arrow, fixed blade head (from the beginning since 1970), from a 58 lb compound bow, and I get complete pass through on broadside deer, ONLY. I use a single fixed sight pin zeroed at 20 yards. At 30 yards it drops 8". So don't get hung up on light or heavy arrows. Be responsible and learn to control your nerves so that, at the second of truth, you can make a good hit.
A lot to unpack here. Let me start by saying I haven’t seen any data that suggests the heavier arrows penetrate significantly better than the lighter version. At 70 lbs I’m referring to arrows between 420-450 grain, heavy would be anything over 500 grain. Speed is very important in KE calculations and as that speed decreases there is a point of diminishing returns. I believe in a setup that is fast enough and heavy enough. Whitetails are not tough animals and as always I think accuracy is king. I see a lot of whitetail hunters pushing 650 grain plus arrows because the Ashby principles. I think that unnecessary, but if all you shoot is 20 yards it doesn’t matter. Longer ranges create the biggest issues with speed, trajectory, and shooting within a lane. If you’re hunting in longer ranges I’d lean towards that 6-7 grains per lbs arrow, heavy arrows will not provide any real benefit. When you look at hunting something like Cape Buffalo, the conversation changes dramatically. I’m happy to have that discussion, I did go back a forth with Troy, aka the ranch ferry, quite a bit on that topic. My setup defied conventional wisdom on Buffalo arrows and I received a lot of grief from others on that subject. In closing I settled on a 578 grain arrow for Cape Buffalo, much much lighter than Ashby and the Ranch Ferry would recommend.
I shot 246 fps with a 575 grain arrow. Old school now. Shot a lot of deer with it. The only reason I was cool with that was my hunting ranges were all sub 25 yards. I wouldn’t recommend that fps in other circumstances though.
I shoot 54# @ 30”. 430 grain arrow at 266 fps strikes a nice balance for me. I’ll be trying some Sevr 1.5’s this year. Heavy arrows require additional tuning and drop considerably at my draw weight. Anybody talking about shooting through shoulders needs to have their bow taken away.
We have a lot of people who tell us they try to shoot through shoulders. I just think you are flirting with disaster when you try to do that. There are a lot of vitals there, but a lot of bone too.
i shoot a 400gr arrow and cant remember the last time i didnt get a pass thru on a whitetail (since i been shooting fixed heads) with a BUNCH of wasted energy with the arrow buried deep in the ground. i used to shoot heavy aluminum arrow in the 80's and 90's before carbon arrows were a thing, i DO NOT miss those heavy arrows one bit. you cant have momentum and energy without speed..... they all work together. if i was hunting elephants or rhinos in africa i would consider a heavy arrow and close range shots. but i have no desire to leave the usa.
@@HUNTERSADVANTAGE right i am going to try shooting swhacker 1 3/4" heads this season total weight 400gr, i feel like i am wasting a lot of valuable energy when my fixed heads bury so deep in the ground, all that extra energy could be used for making a bigger cut. ill find out how they do in october......wont be long now 😁
Amen . 407 grain at 262 fps. I’ve had very few hits that didn’t pass thru and they were hanging far out the far side on deer. Pigs to like 175 usually get a pass thru. Larger ones had the shaft hanging out the far side. I have some 456 grain that will give me a pass thru nearly every time. All with either 100 grain slicktrick standards or Magnus Black Hornets serrated.
I have been shooting since i was 5 when i got my first bow. the heavy arrow topic has caught my attention here lately. This video makes good points but i have more questions. Not to pick on anyone but someone put their numbers up in the comments so it gave me some data to work with. 605g arrow moving at 235FPS comes out at 74.21 Ft/lbs. Not bad. My current set up is a PSE decree TI (IBO 355) and im shooting 378g Gold tip velocitys at 310FPS per my crono and my shops crono agrees. Now with that being said, if i run the numbers on that, that comes out to 80.68 ft/lbs. SO in my eyes fast and light vs Slow and heavy still result in the same energy. I went with a faster set up because where i hunt tends to be thick. so shooting though a hole in the brush, less arch in the arrow flight tends to have less chance of hitting that limb that i didn't see. Also, with that being said, Ive only failed to get a pass through one time. It was with a rage xtream that happened to hit a rib on both sides. Since then ive shot the black hornets and this season will be the montecs. Hornets never failed to go through and usually find a root to stick in.
Sounds like what you are doing is working well for you. From how I understand it, momentum is the best way to judge energy and ability to pass through when encountering an opposite force. We just did a podcast with the ranch fairy and we talked about some of these things. Thank you for the thoughtful comment and openmindedness!
For a comparison you can't just pick a weight and give it an arbitrary speed. You would have to shoot each weight through your setup and then crunch the numbers. It would be better to do more than just super heavy and super light too. You might be surprised at the differences or similarities, but you'd have to shoot each weight through your bow to be apples to apples.
I see the THORN CROWN BROADHEAD IN THE BEGINNING AND WHATS ANYONES THOUGHT ON THORN BROADHEADS ? I love the thorn rift 2.2” but thought about trying the thorn !
Heavier arrows to like 550 with fixed heads are a great option. But IMO, you need 70#’s draw weight. My son uses this combo and nearly every time it’s a full in the dirt pass thru. Elk too!
I love the Ranch fairy, i love ashby’s reports but i do not agree that you can ignore weapons. I really do believe from my own studies i think and feel 0.7 slugs of momentum is all you need for everything. Some weapons do it better than others. My 50lb bow requires 600 grains to do it my crossbow requires 500 to do it. My crossbow does it with 280 ish fps my bow does it at 170 ish fps. Both will pass through 50 yards and in probably even past it. Especially if using a mechanical head. Now a fixed requires 0.4 to pass through.
Nice vid. I do think your "pin gap" demo was a bit flawed though. The "pin gap" demo is really "point of impact" With my setup, if I zero in at 20 my pin gaps are the same out to 35 yards. I shoot a 4 pin site. Past 35 yards and yes, the gap gets bigger but inside 35 I use the same pins. Of course my trajectory is exaggerated but it is still the same pin gaps.
The heavier you go, the further and quicker the gap opens up between the POA, not just the distance. E.G. a 700 grain arrow might have 6 inches of drop at 20 yards compared to a 400 grain arrow. But a 500 grain might only have 2 inches of drop at 20 yards compared to a 400 grain arrow. That should be a key note to mention for your viewers considering the swap. Excellent, non biased info IMO.
Absolutely! There are a lot of different considerations when choosing an arrow weight. I think a lot of time everyone just talks about the pros and omits the cons. I wanted to give people a better look at Pros/Cons of both setups. Thanks for the kind words too!
Shoot an ezv sight. No range finder needed. I shoot 642gr with an 3zv. 257fps with a 70lb xp3dition xcursion 6. I r3gularly shoot 9ut to 50 yds. Always pass through everything I shoot.
This test has me very confused? If I take a 4mm 500gr arrow and a 6.5mm 500gr arrow @20yrds the 4mm is going to penetrate further and have less wind drift which is the whole point of running a micro diameter arrow. Not debating a lighter vs heavier arrow but using the same target my 370gr rip xv penetrate deeper than my 420gr axis, 468gr carbon express maxima red and about the same as my 430gr rip tko @ 20 yds and my 390gr victory vforce 6.5mm are no comparison. My 370gr rip xv penetrate as deep as my 430gr rip tko's @ 60yds in my bag target as well, but I don't feel either is a good real world comparison. 370gr is probably light for hunting but Id prefer to have 400-500gr arrows. Easton axis and rip tko's have killed everything in north america and aren't ranch fairy heavy. For some of us pin forgiveness in the heat of the moment is important than a massively heavy arrow. Shot placement is still the most critical and shooting at distances of upto 40yrds I'd rather have an arrow with less drop.
Everyone has their own personal preference. Bag targets are not a good method for testing penetration. Every shot has a different placement and angle. I believe no two shots are ever the same. I can only speak from anecdotal evidence, exactly what I did in this video. Thank you for watching. I think you've got the right idea.
KE is a poor indication of penetration. Momentum is a more accurate figure. Heavier arrows have more momentum which results in more energy to continue to penetrate after encountering resistance.
I think so...I have an old Bear -truth 2 ..all metal, single cam...think it's 2004-2007. It shoots way better , quieter and straiter and little vibe than my diamond -edge sb1 2017 model with huge draw weight range . I suspect this bear is better than alot of the newer ones... will see what my next bow is..looking g forward to it
This year i'm shooting 600gr, 70lb at 28". At 40 yards, they shoot really good like darts. I was tired of no pass throughs so i'm okay losing some speed over it and trajectory. I do practice all the time guessing yardage distances and than checking them to help avoid mis-judged errors. But here in Michigan, typically there is nothing you can get a shot out past 25'ish.
After 17 years of bow hunting I have learned a lot and most of it was by trial and error. Can an arrow be to heavy or to light? Absolutely. Early on I experienced the lack of pass throughs with the lighter stuff (380-400gr 302fps). 2016 I moved up to a 470gr arrow at 280fps and a pass through started to become common. Summer of 2022 I made the jump to a 540gr arrow with 200gr up front (9.5gpi arrow, 75gr insert, 125gr BH, 15.6% FOC). My 30" 74# draw slings that bad boy at 261fps. Oh man do they fly great. Not to mention my bow is noticeably quieter. HERE"S THE REALLY WIERD PART. I did not have to change sight tapes on my HHA Kingpin after moving up from a 470gr to a high FOC 540gr arrow. I found the happy place with momentum and the drastic reduction of speed erosion at distance, I guess. It blew my mind. I repeated the sight in process several times and my set up tape kept telling me to use the same yardage tape as I did with the 470gr arrow. No noticeable increase in trajectory either.. Pretty crazy
Very few ever talk about the draw backs to a flatter trajectory, that lighter arrows have. I've had many instances where if my arrow was just a littler slower, it would clear the top of some brush then drop into the vitals. I'm 31/70 so speed is something I'm not self-conscious about. Not being able to clear brush has been a bigger issue, for me, than not being able to go under it.
@@HUNTERSADVANTAGE you're probably right, a very unique, kinda situation.. I've said to myself so many time, " if I could just get over that limb". Maybe its sticks, grass, or rocks. Very few times have I said, " if I could just shoot under that" Hmm, super situational I suppose.
comparing the two arrows with out sighting in both is like comparing a 204 ruger and a 6mm creed with the same scope. On a graph the 204 is flatter out to 300 but then the efficiency of the bullet of a 6 creed takes over. At what point does arrow weight and speed lost hurt the lighter arrow?
Soinds to me like some enterprising content creator figured out how to adapt the ages old "whats the best deer cartridge" controversy to arrow weight. There is absolutely nothing a 500 grain let alone heavier arrow can do any better whatsoever than my 435 grain arrow going 368fps is already doing or will do. I believe the term everyone is looking for in the average weight vs heavy weight arrow argument is "point of diminishing returns"
just do me one favor...sight your first pin at 20 yds. shoot your 450 grn. arrow...now shoot the 540 grn. with the same pin and tell me how much difference there is in drop...if you really listen to Troy he always talks for the most part at whitetail ranges...the average whitetail range is 22 yds...tell me the results....i still have my stick bow with wooden arrows...they weigh 515 grns...they worked then...they'll work now.
I dont buy in on heavy arrows, i keep it simple. Standard dia carnivore 250 spine, 32 inch long standard insert, 100 grain magnus stinger, lite knock. 30.5 draw on v3x just under 300 fps. I dont need high foc and heavy slow arrows.
Anything over 500 is overkill bottom line for whitetail and most NA animals. If your only gonna shoot 20 yards shit shoot 700 grains!!!! Shooting a sharp broadhead is number 1 not arrow weight !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
