Hebrews 6 Does Not Teach that a Christian Can Lose His Salvation - Tim Conway 

This is so goodddd

How about the Hebrews 10:26! Can you explain please!

Amen on that Hebrew 6 is just simple say it is impossible for someone to fall and then get saved again it just showing Jesus Christ saved us once and for all

​​@@tedzgumz8249A.W. Tozer has an excellent sermon about this particular verse. You can find it here on RU-vid.

What is your experience?

@ipt3000 what was your experience?

If one is indeed truly a "saved believer" they indeed cannot leave. Therefore the issue becomes this: Those who leave were never truly saved. That is the language we have in 1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." This is the same issue with those in Matthew 7:21-23 who emphatically say, "Lord, Lord" and boast in the miracles they did. What does Christ tell them? "I NEVER knew you." It is not that He knew them and they lost their salvation, for salvation cannot be lost, but it is that they had a false salvation and were deceived.

@@gccsatx Proverbs 21:16 - He who wanders from the way of understanding will rest in the assemblies of the dead

your comment was helpful, I wonder if I didnt mean it at heart when I asked Jesus in my Life. I will do that eight now, Could you pray for me ?

@@StartFromScratch1 Sure. I'll gladly pray for you.

@@bikerboy9010 Thank you so much, 🩵 means a lot to me

read the next verse

@@savedemmanuel Yes God works in us for all of the good, the fruit, and the keeping. But we still have a sin nature laying in wait; and we can follow it . Rom 6:16 "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?" Romans 6:16.. then Paul goes on to say, but thankfully you became slaves to righteousness - but what about the Christians who aren't slaves to righteousness? Verse 16 addresses that possibility.

@@savedemmanuel "13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." So it's a double edged sword then? God works in Christians and they the work out their salvation, albeit not carnally as legalists and Catholics seem to think.

This doesn't mean that we need to work or do something to be saved. This means that we need to work out the salvation that we have received from Jesus. In other words, if we are truly saved, then we have to show it through our works with fear and trembling before the Lord. This verse don't mean that we need to work or follow the 10 commandments in order to be saved. It does mean that we need to work for the Lord because he saved us. You need to read the previous and the following verses in order to understand the whole context and not just that verse. Remember, the Bible says "Work out YOUR salvation", it doesn't say "Work out FOR your salvation" and those are two different meanings. John 3:16 is one of many proofs that you don't need to work FOR your salvation. You just have to believe to be saved.

That's the issue that people are missing. It's not that they 'lost the salvation'... They went away from it. Usually after longer periods of backsliding and compromising. The problem is that countless ministries try to sell tickets to heaven and then assure that it is 100% guaranteed. Well, the delivery is, but if you moved elsewhere, you won't get it.

How do they do that I wonder.

@jennifercottingham8620 loss of interest in their relationship with Elohim, unjustified anger toward Him, cares of worldly concerns, higher priorities in their eyes or lack of gratitude. Look at Matthew 23:3 and following and Hebrews 6.

​@@metapolitikgedanken612 this bumps up against the whole "sealed unto the day of redemption" promis though. If you can by any means back out of l, or break away from yoir justified status by thr blood of christ, then you were not sealed unto the day you redemption, and it produces a liar of the word of God in that passage. Moreover it also conflicts with any of the parts that point out that the salvation was a gift, and that the grace by which you recieve that gift is mutually exclusive from any works of righteousness you do. Which logically means thaf if you can't even it by doing good, you cannot lose it by doing bad either.

I have never ever met a true believer that has done thst

Who told you this ?? Certainly not Jesus ! Even in the English the texts are abundantly clear. But in the original Greek, the words of the Lord and the other New Testament writers are extremely emphatic. Jesus states that there are indeed those who: "For a while ARE BELIEVING, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY" (Luke 8:13). The Greek text uses the present tense here, which is the tense of ONGOING ACTION in Koine Greek. It is possible , to believe in an ongoing way for a distinct and definite period of time, and then later "Fall Away". And we note, that the word "Fall Away" - ἀφίστημι (aphistemi) is IDENTICAL to the word used to warn true Christians in Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING FROM (ἀφίστημι) the living God". So it is possible to be a believer; it is possible to be a brother; and it is possible to DEPART/ FALL AWAY with an evil heart of UNBELIEF (The opposite of BELIEVING). Some Christians do indeed BELIEVE (ongoingly) for a time , and afterwards Depart / Fall away with an EVIL UNBELIEVING HEART. And what does God say if those who have fallen away? 'He looks upon men, and if ANY say: ''I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not", He will deliver his soul from GOING INTO THE PIT, and his life shall see the light. Lo, all these things God works oftentimes with man: TO BRING BACK HIS SOUL FROM THE PIT, to be enlightened with the light of the living.' (Job 33:27-30) ' Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way SHALL SAVE A SOUL FROM DEATH, and shall hide a multitude of sins' (James 5:19-20) 'He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness' (Job 33:26)

@@mathete9968 OK what do you make of 1 John 3:9 which clearly and unmistakably states: Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. You can't separate the teachings of Jesus from the teachings of His Apostles! Scripture has to be harmonious with other Scripture and this passage is abundantly clear!

@@EmV-si1eu Thanks for your reply. I was just researching that passage again in Professor Wallace's discussion of the present tense verbs used there (Wallace, D, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, 1996, Zondervan, USA). As Wallace points out, the Greek verb is Present Tense and either "customary present tense" or "gnomic present tense". But in plain language, Greek present tense depicts ONGOING action unless there are compelling reasons in the text to mitigate that. But more importantly even then the grammar, are the Rules that Scripture itself lays down. And I completely agree with you that we must Compare Scripture with Scripture (1 Corinthians 2:13). And this Rule is Apostolic. So first let's examine 1 John 3:9 from a Grammatical point of view. Secondly , let's examine 1 John 3:9 briefly by comparing Scripture with Scripture using only Johannine writings Thirdly let's examine Scripture with Scripture using the Rule of Faith (ie the clear passages of Scripture compared with Scripture throughout the Bible. See the following Entry

@@EmV-si1euYou would do very well to study Hebrews 3:12 and particularly verse 14 in the original Greek. "Take heed brothers, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, IN DEPARTING FROM the living God. ... For we ARE BECOME PARTAKERS of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" In short , your error is embedded in your quote. And it is an error that is common to all Calvinists and semi Calvinists. The passage does not say "He HAS been born of God". The grammar is exceedingly clear ..it says he IS BORN of God.. The Participle is adjectival and labels the one depicted by the controlling verb "Does not sin" as "a born [one] of God.. In plain language, it qualifies the expression"does not sin". It says nothing of continuing in the faith, steadfast unto the end. John merely characterises the one who is born of God as not continuing in sin. The text does not anywhere state in the original that he "refuses" to sin nor does it state that the reason for not sinning is that he HAS BEEN BORN of God (no past tense used by John). The false emphasis on past tense is employed to convey the erroneous notion that if we have been once born of God we cannot fall away. Indeed the very opposite is taught in Hebrews 3:12 and 14. The text states the born of God [person] (perfect participle - attrubutive adjective) does not sin (present tense). And that he cannot be sinning (present tense) on account of God's seed remaining (present tense) in him due to being born of God (perfect tense). The perfect tense verb denotes a state. And this verb informs the other verbs. It gives the result of this state, namely a transformed individual. But John, in this statement says nothing of continuing in the faith or in Christ . Indeed, John speaks very urgently and emphatically of this in John 15:2-10. And the other writers of the New Testament are very emphatic about this. We cannot take a single sentence in 1 John 3 and build an entire teaching upon it which overthrows the entire Bible. But also the grammar of 1 John 3:9 does not make any statements about continuing unto the end. It merely states the result of being regenerate: Cessation from continuing in sin. And the prior verse (v. 8) states the very opposite. It describes the man who lives in in sin. So there is a dichotomy presented to us in verses 8 and 9. Two kinds of persons are in view, and they are at opposite ends with nothing in between. No spectrum. 1 John 5:12 helps to put this truth into perspective: "The one having the Son IS HAVING LIFE. And the one having not the Son of God IS NOT HAVING LIFE." John had already recorded in John 5:24 that only those who are "Believers and hearers" are those "HAVING life" and "not coming into condemnation" . (Those and those alone). Only those are described as "passed from death to life" . So qualification, whilst not a condition for salvation, is a description which rules out all backsliding. It is impossible， grammatically to teach assurance of salvation for any except the ongoing "believers and hearers" in this text, because the ongoing PRESENT TENSE is absolutely employed and used to describe these individuals. And the past tense (aorist indicative tense is utterly missing as the Calvinist doctrine requires) In other words, it is not enough to have once truly believed. Faith and continuance in God's Word, MUST be ongoing and continuous. And this is precisely what Christ states: "IF you CONTINUE in my Word, THEN are you my disciples indeed" (John 8:31) There is no question that true faith is characterised by ongoing continuance in Christ. The Calvinist notion that a truly regenerate believer who falls away will inevitably return is absolutely foreign to Scripture. With Saint Augustine we observe that "Many are called, but few are chosen" Namely that all the elect will inevitably be saved , but not all who truly believe today are among the elect who will finally persevere and be saved. Hence the need to be making ones calling and election sure. And to be examining ourselves to see whether we be in the faith. I referred to Hebrews 3:14 which teaches identically to 1 John 5:12 "He that is a HAVER of the Son IS HAVING life." "For we ARE BECOME partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence STEDFAST UNTO THE END." Here the writer to the Hebrews uses the perfect tense CONDITIONALLY. He inserts the conditional particle ἐάνπερ (eanper) which is very emphatic! Our current state of "partaking" of Christ" is completely and utterly conditional and that is entirely non negotiable. And this is precisely what the Lord affirmed when he said "he that shall endure unto the end, the same SHALL BE SAVED" (Matthew 24:13). We already are become partakers of CHRIST (perfect tense) now. And yet this "HAVING" or ""BEING MADE PARTAKERS" of Christ is also conditional. We must continue holding to our confidence (Faith in Christ crucified and risen) STEADFASTLY unto the end. Otherwise we shall all have believed in vain (1 Corinthians 15:2 - Note, this passage also teaches that only those who continue will be saved) "I declare unto you the Gospel which I preached unto you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand; By which also you ARE BEING SAVED, IF you keep in memory what I preached unto you, UNLESS you have BELIEVED IN VAIN." (1 Corinthians 15:1, 2). And John states this using present tense: "Whoever is a HAVER of Christ IS HAVING life" 1 John 5:12

@@EmV-si1eu So we conclude the following things: - That the true identity of every true believer is one born of the Spirit, a new creature in Christ - One who loves God's law and is enabled to walk in it by God - One who died according to the flesh and who is alive in Christ - One who cannot continue in sin (according to the new man) But also we conclude: - There is a real and ongoing struggle according to the flesh - That God gives us instructions in order to deal with the flesh - That there is forgiveness of sins IF we confess our sins (1 John 1:9 where the conditional particle "ἐὰν"' is used ; compare also John 13:10) - That there is NO CONDEMNATION to those who are NOT WALKING (Greek present tense) after the flesh but rather after the Spirit. And other writers in the New testament also tackle this problem Hebrews 12;1, 2 understands this and invites us: "Let us lay aside every weight, and THE SIN WHICH SO EASILY DOES BESET US, and let us run WITH PATIENCE the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith ..." And Paul urges and invites us: "Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light" Rom. 13:12 So we can readily see and discern that 1 John 3:9 is NOT a magic pill which automatically means that we will return from sin. But rather, with Paul and the other Apostles and writers, we see a description of the effects of the New Birth. With John we confess that the New Man does not continue in sin. and with john we confess that the New Man remains in every person who remains in Christ (1 John 3;6; John 15:2-10) And Paul in Romans 8:13 is very clear along with the Lord in John 15 that we can indeed fall away if we fail to abide in Christ: IF you LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YOU SHALL DIE. BUT IF YOU through the Spirit do MORTIFY THE DEEDS of the body, YOU SHALL LIVE. And this LIFE / DEATH dichotomy is not foreign to the other writers of the Bible. Paul is indeed alluding to the words of the prophet (Ezekiel 18:24) But when the righteous TURNS AWAY FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, and COMMITS INIQUITY, and does according to all the abominations that THE WICKED man does, SHALL HE LIVE? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them HE SHALL DIE. So 1 John 3:9 is not a blank cheque that indiscriminately declares that once we are saved, we cannot fall away. It rather focuses that the New Man in Christ is altogether righteous and holy and according to God in righteousness. And the New Man and MUST BE CONTINUALLY PUT ON (Ephesians 4;24). 1 John 3:9 certainly describes the one who is born of God, but says nothing of continuing in Christ (acknowledged in verse 6). Every writer of the new testament solemnly warn us of the perils of falling away: of which we note a handful of admonitions: Hebrews 2:3; 3:12 , Hebrews 10:26-38; John 8:31; John 15:2-6; 1 Timothy 4:1, 2; Romans 11;21 - 23 BE NOT HIGH MINDED, BUT FEAR: For IF God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT YOU. Behold therefore the goodness and SEVERITY of God: on THEM WHICH FELL, SEVERITY; but toward YOU Goodness, IF YOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: otherwise YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF. (Romans 11:21-23)

I have looked up explanation after explanation for these verses and no one is clear. So I like your plan better😊

The five virgins who wondered off and did not wait like they were told to do were lost.

Yes it's possible. Once you're saved you're always saved

Even though you've fallen away, you've not committed the unpardonable sin, therefore it is possible to come back to faith again. The once saved always saved doctrine will not help you at all.

There’s nothing you can do…I don’t know you or your circumstances but what I can read you have no faith…put your trust in Jesus Christ and HIS finished work on the cross!

i'll be praying for you! but keep going back to him asking for grace & mercy! even when you fail and know you will, God see's your heart that you dont want to but if you give up and run from God - thats not gonna help you at all!

The prodigal son is a story meant to convey that God will welcome a son back - but only through the lens of a certain theology would someone read that story and think it refers to every single person who leaves the faith. John 15:5-6 "“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." 15 says we are the branches in Christ, 16 says branches can be cast out and go to hell. We know what In Christ means doctrinally.

@@deesteven Proverbs 21:16 - He who wanders from the way of understanding will rest in the assemblies of the dead

I hVe domehiw fallen into this state. No one knows how fearful it is.

@@unityfaith2029 Can you just not repent with your mouth or is God somehow showing you he won't accept it?

@@Sasha1661_ Its me I do want to repent is just don’t have desire and i feel lonely in a dead body in the world i haven’t read my bible for 1 days every time i pray is not serious my heart is hardened no conviction of sin trie come back 3 times and all the 3 times my heart got hardened i don’t know what to do wake up feeling weird almost like i don’t believe i struggled to cry i can’t pray fully and 1 sin made it btw only 1 it’s like I’m dead listen to this sermons literally showcase like im dead i tried so many times to unharden my heart i so desperate. I regret everything i did now is too late i can’t repent i want but my heart as no will to repent

@@LitoLochoss with the authority given to you by Jesus Christ of Nazareth command whatever is causing this to depart from you and never return no matter how it feels he is ALWAYS THERE. Do you have a church?

@@LitoLochoss God is faithful in His promises of His Word. Trust in Christ and seek Him; call out to Him and ask Him to forgive you of your sins. Salvation is not based on human effort but Christ's finished work on the cross; He paid it all already, and you just need to trust in Him and His blood, death, burial, and resurrection; know you are a sinner and trust that His blood is sufficient to save you. God is love and wants you to TURN TO CHRIST, AND BELIEVE ON HIM AND HIS COMPLETED WORK. John 19:30, John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 10:28

But you cant truly believe and then truly stop believing. There will be apart of you that holds on deep inside and you will eventually come around. There are ppl tho who will fool themselves for a life time sadly

I do agree tho its not a punch your ticket and call a day salvation

No he saved me right then and there that thought you had was not biblical

Trust in God's mercy .repent .and turn to God with your whole heart .God also said i will have mercy on whom i will have mercy .also it says God's married to the back slider . .if your worried about youve crossed a line of reprobate .then you probably havent .because the people who become reprobate wont repent or get saved cause they just dont care .

The Bible says that “God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?” Numbers 23:19

You could be like the prodigal son, if you repent and return while today is still called today, you will be saved. But if you wait like the five virgins until the doors of the Kingdom are closed, then you will be excluded.

You’re absolutely right in your interpretation of scripture…if he doesn’t repent of his sins, be born again and believe in the gospel..

Man's responsibility is not to ask, "how does he choose" but to respond to Christ's command to all to come. illbehonest.com/christ-is-willing-to-save-you-have-no-right-to-go-to-hell

Wow, awesome Word from Pastor Tim in the link you shared. The analogies he used made sense and are helpful to show how God justly condemns and simultaneously wishes for none to perish. Thank you for your service to God. I can’t tell you how thankful I am for the uploads on this channel as well as I’ll Be Honest. God has blessed me and some of my friends with Pastor Tim’s and other Pastor’s teachings that you’ve posted. We’ve found them to be very profitable as young people

Wait are you saying willfully sinning is unforgiveable? I fell into lust willingly before but I feel bad for it. :( Can I still be forgiven?

Who can say who is saved and who isn't? The evidence for Judas seems to point to no, but we can't know who is saved and who isn't, what we can do however is keep to the purity of the Gospel of grace. There is only profitability in living out the calling of God, to seek out things good, meditate on them, to discipline yourself, only good things will come from this behavior. However my friend, salvation is not determined based on your ability to endure to the end. It's sealed by the Holy Spirit that we receive by believing that Jesus is Lord, and died for our sins being raised from the dead by God's power to give us eternal life as a gift. One moment of faith in Jesus is eternal life, John 3:36, John 5:24, John 3:15-17 and there's many more. Here's something to consider...when you truly understand grace, the finished work of Christ, eternal life handed over as a gift, why would you ever stop believing? You can't earn it, you can't lose it, so what reason is there to ever stop believing? The writers understood this, and they were so adamant about people rejecting the message of Christ outright, or exposing themselves later on by turning away from the faith. See this wasn't just about them "living a life of sin", it's about them flat out denying the Lord that bought them, exposing them as unbelievers all along. The Gospel can't be undone, it's a once for all forgiveness of sin, it's imputed righteousness, true believers get this and have no reason to turn away from the truth. It's illogical to do so, as it's a gift sent and sealed by a moment of faith. I hope you let go of the burden of your own ability to endure, and trust that Christ endures on your behalf, he calls you to rest in him my friend. God will perform the good work in you, he's the author and finisher of our faith, he ever lives to make intercession for us. Very good news!

I very much do not believe that Judas was saved. Read Acts 1:25. There is a slim possibility that one could argue it refers to physical death, but that's not at all what I think the disciples meant by it. You must hold fast, yet the regenerate will hold fast because they are preserved by God, yet it's not automatic, you must persevere in life and doctrine. I'd hold something along the lines of it's a function of the new nature. Those with the new nature will ultimately persevere in life and doctrine, because it's in their nature, yet they must fight the old nature by living by faith. Guaranteed, yet not automatic.

I believe not. Because from the very get go, the Bible says "'For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him. John 6:64" Judas was introduced as never having believed. There is no mention of him believing and then falling away, but him never having believed from the beginning.

Judas was cut from his neck to his lower belly, he was murdered to make sure he never told anyone who was involved in the death of Jesus Christ

Jesus and the apostles both said that Judas was doomed to destruction. Most people don't realize that Judas cast out demons and healed the sick. Matt 10:1 clearly states that Jesus gave authority to the TWELVE to do these things.

Comparing scripture with scripture is a method of Bible study where readers examine different parts of the Bible to gain a deeper and more accurate understanding of its teachings. This approach involves cross-referencing verses and passages to see how they relate to each other, ensuring interpretations are consistent with the overall message of the Bible. A fundamental principle of this method is that one verse cannot contradict another; therefore, less clear passages are understood in light of clearer ones. This helps clarify difficult passages, prevent doctrinal errors, and provide a comprehensive context. The Bereans in Acts 17:11 exemplify this practice by eagerly and daily examining the Scriptures to verify the truth of the teachings they received. So that is what Tim is doing in this study, Hebrews 6 would be considered a "less clear" passage. So in understanding it correctly we must compare it to the rest of Scripture.

Then he is as his father described him, lost.

Then he died in his sin rather than repenting. Proving he had no Salvation. "Noone can snatch them from My Father's hand."

No. Explain this verse then

Only one person disagreed with what the Bible taught about salvation, Calvin. And now Calvinists follow the manmade doctrine of Calvinism over the teachings of the Bible.

I am a tad confused when you say, "DO NOT worry about being immoral because you have been saved...", where does Tim say such heresy in his sermon? I think you are misunderstanding what he is saying, please give a timestamp to where you are confused. - James

How do you translate "eternal security is eternal" to "license to sin"?

@@minshullmisako "Eternal Security" is a false doctrine. It was much later derived by semi Calvinists somewhere after 1689 and the (ana)Baptist confession of faith. The first (ana)Baptist confession was posted in 1644 in London by Calvinists. It was extremely "simplistic" and riddled with error. King James Bible translator and Scholar Dr Daniel Featley had debated these (ana) Baptists in London 3 years earlier in 1641. And they simply and publicly promised they would repent of their new and novel (ana) Baptist doctrines. But they dissembled in their hearts (Jer. 42:20) and despite being refuted and answered in every point from the original texts, they still persisted in their errors. Moreover, Featley exposed then publicly and challenged then openly to disclose whether they understood the original languages. But none of them could answer him yes. And he exposed again and again how they too, wrested the English translation in order to falsify doctrine and create the modern "Baptist" phenomenon we see today (ana-Baptist phenomenon) - Baptist sects holding every wind of doctrine. But following the Westminster Confession of Faith (1647) in its erroneous article on "Perseverance of the Saints", the London (ana) Baptists of 1689 copied the essential structure of the Westminster Confession on "Perseverance of the Saints" and added to and embellished it. Note: The Calvinists have attempted to align their doctrine with the church father Augustine, because they had no sources in the early church for this new and novel doctrine of their. But, Louis Berhof, a reformed scholar was compelled to admit in his Dogmatics that Augustine taught perseverance of the elect alone, not of all that come to faith. "For MANY are CALLED, but FEW ARE CHOSEN" (Matthew 22:14) The Calvinist doctrine of perseverance was founded upon the Zwinglian principle of Scripture + Human Reasoning. But the Calvinists kept their doctrine closely veiled in the language of scripture texts and only deviated subtly into arguments of human reasoning. The semi Calvinists, however, upon seeing and recognizing the arguments of human reasoning in the Westminster Confession, took them a whole lot further. They developed from these the false doctrine of "eternal security" by wresting the words of the Lord in John 5:24, 6:40; 10:28-30. These texts do not teach eternal security for any. They teach only that the one who continues in Saving Faith, and in the Words of the Lord, has Eternal Life. They teach the very opposite of eternal security. They teach that Salvation exists only in those who continue in Faith. (See also John 8:31; John 15:1-10). The modern doctrine of "eternal security" is an outgrowth of the (ana) Baptist confession of 1689 but was developed into its new and crystalline form much later , as reflected in works like Chafers Systematic Theology, and edited and endorsed by such personalities such as Walvoord . It is relatively easy to trace the development of human reasoning against the historical background of the every changing confessions of reformed rationalists. And Calvinism along with semi Calvinists are riddled Witt the Zwinglian principle of Reason + Scripture. Indeed , Zwingki replaced the principle of the Pope and his reason + Scripture and replaced it with "Every man and his dog + Scripture" And "Anything goes + Scripture" is the fruit we see that has resulted from this principle. What is highly laughable, is that stiff and starchy , die hard Calvinists try to posture themselves as conservatives . (And on a certain level and in some sense they are). But Calvinism is already infected with the virus of "Human reasoning + Scripture". Since the days of Zwingli at Marburg , and later Calvin, "Calvinism" cannot extricate itself from this self destructive premise and it's preachers certainly reflect this in their teachings. Calvinists LOVE to posture as if the false dichotomy of: Calvinism vs Arminianism Were the only two things and as if Calvinism is "Orthodoxy" and "Arminianism" is Heresy ..... Whereas THEY ARE BOTH EVIL FRUITS OF ZWINGLIAN PHILOSOPHY. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are two opposite extremes that arise as a natural consequence of Zwingli's principle of "Faith + Human Reasoning" Recall Luther advocated: "Sola Scriptura" SCRIPTURE ALONE And this principle is Apostolic: "If anyone speak, let him speak AS THE ORACLE'S of GOD" (1 Peter 4:11) Stick to the words of Scripture ALONE. "He that hath my word, LET him SPEAK MY WORD FAITHFULLY" (Jeremiah 23:28) "Add THOU NOT unto HIS WORDS, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar" (Proverbs 30:6) Now Arminianism was simply a reaction to Calvinism. Calvinism added to Scripture in their so called 5 point system (which is really 3 points, given that - Total depravity was taught by Wycliffe, Huss , and Luther as by Augustine, Job, David and Paul - Election is taught by Isaiah and Paul ) But after Calvin, probably Theodore Beza, wrested to teach the blasphemous doctrine of "limited atonement". And the other 2 false doctrines if Calvinism were also touted more and more . In response, Arminius denied the Scriptural election of grace and toured synergism (man cooperates with God in conversion). This one set of false doctrines begat another set of false doctrines . But neither of these camps represent either: - The pure Word of God Or - The Historic Faith Both of these abominations are not historic Christian doctrine . Let it be noted that the Reformation began upon the principle of Sola Scriptura. And the Augsburg confession of 1530 placed emphasis on returning to the Faith once delivered. Immediately the devil opposed this principle of Sola Scriptura by the pope and his agents on the left hand and by the reformed sects (Calvinist and Arminianism) on the right hand. And historically, the reformed sects, who pursue human reasoning with a vengeance, always end up producing recruits for the Unitarian cults.

@μαθητη Mathete - Concerning John 10:27-30. From my understanding, it is true that the language used is exclusive (My sheep, and only my sheep), however, there's also no ifs in it. "My sheep hear my voice" (he is plainly stating that his sheep hear his voice (not if they hear, but that they do hear) "and they follow me" (again, not if they follow me, he says that they do follow him). "I give them eternal life" (no conditions, he simply gives his sheep who follow him (all of them) eternal life. "and they will never perish" Again, no condition, this is really the flip side of eternal life. If you have eternal life, you obviously can't perish, it's in the word eternal. The idea that the purpose of John 10:27-30 isn't to teach on eternal security, but is actually to teach about the fact that you can loose your savlation is insane.

@@joev2223 Some of your comments are absolutely correct. But some of them are unsupported both by the text and by the overall teaching of John and the Bible. I completely agree, that there are no conditional particles used in the Greek text of John 10:28. That is not the import of Jesus meaning here. (But most assuredly, conditional particles and conditional statements ARE USED extensively by the Lord and the other New Testament writers in many soteriological contexts, as by the Old Testament prophets also) And you are right to pick up on the language of "exclusivity". The important thing to note is that Jesus describes "condition" and not "conditionality". He is not setting a condition here, viz: "If you will DO this , then I will do this ..." He is rather stating the condition of those who possess eternal life. It would be patently wrong to say that if we just would hear his voice, then we could have eternal life. The very hearing of his voice is a gift, a result of true conversion. It is to be born anew. Something that is missed by all discussions of this theme is that These discourses are a running narrative. They do not stand in isolation. For example, John 10:28 follows up on John 6:40 and especially John 5:21, 24-26. And in John 5:24 Jesus does not yet progress to the use present tense verbs to describe "hearing" as he does in John 10:28. He first selects present tense participles in concomitant use with "having life". This is critical. The participle use is a substantive. In plain words, " a label". It is those who are "The HEARERS of Christ" that are HAVING eternal life. But this is still not the full picture. We have to do a little work with the constant, repeated use of the word "hear" and especially the prophecy first given involving "hearing" of Christ. God had prophesied through Moses: "The LORD your God will raise up unto you a Prophet [Christ Jesus] from the midst of you, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him you shall HEARKEN" (Deuteronomy 18:15) Note: "Hearken" is the same Greek word used in the Septuagint (LXX) in all cited instances. "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not HEARKEN unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." (Deut. 18:19) Now three sources explain precisely the sense in which God will require "refusal to hearken to Christ: - The LXX, along with - The Apostle Peter and also - The Author of Hebrews The LXX translates Deuteronomy 18:19 concerning all.those who will not hearken to Christ: "I will take vengeance upon him" Peter states concerning Deuteronomy 18:19: "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will NOT HEAR that Prophet, SHALL BE DESTROYED from among the people." But Hebrews shows us that "EVERY SOUL" included in Deuteronomy 18:19 refers not merely to unconverted persons. The inspired writer applies this also to Christians: "See that YOU refuse NOT HIM that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused him that spoke on earth, much more SHALL NOT WE escape, IF WE TURN AWAY from him that speaks from heaven". (Hebrews 12:25) Recall, the words of Deuteronomy 18:15. God was going to speak by a Prophet that He would send. And that Prophet is Christ. And this is really the overarching and continually recurrent theme of the book of Hebrews: "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners SPOKE in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, HAS in these last days spoken unto us by his SON ... How shall WE ESCAPE, IF WE NEGLECT so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him ....? ... Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING FROM the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, IF WE hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if you will HEAR his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. (HEBREWS 1:1, 2; Hebrews 2:3; Hebrews 3:12-15) Take note of the repeated use of the CONDITIONAL particle "IF" in Hebrews 2:3; Hebrews 3:14 and in Hebrews 12:25. (To say nothing of other places such as Hebrews 10:26 and Hebrews 10:38). But the use of conditional particles are by no means limited to the author of Hebrews. Paul uses them most empathatically in salvation contexts as well (See 1 Corinthians 15:2 and Colossians 1:23); and the Lord does so also (John 15:6 and 7). It is a common, but Scripturally unwarranted argument of human reasoning that "eternal life by definition" cannot be forfeit. In fact, Scripture DEFINES "Eternal Life" in such an explicit way, that there is no ambiguity concerning it: "THIS is LIFE ETERNAL, that they might KNOW You the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." (John 17:3) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever is believing in him SHOULD not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) "This is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life IS IN HIS SON." "He that HAS the Son HAS life; and he that HAS NOT the Son of God HAS NOT life." (1 John 5:11, 12) NOTES: Hebrews 3:14 makes an identical assertion to 1 John 5:12, but Hebrews qualifies this idea. "He that HAS the Son, HAS LIFE and he that HAS NOT the Son, HAS NOT LIFE" "WE ARE BECOME PARTAKERS OF Christ IF WE HOLD the beginning of our confidence STEDFAST UNTO THE END" Here the inspired writer uses the Perfect Tense. We already HAVE Christ. The perfect tense is state verb. It describes present standing . It describes reality. And yet , this "Partaking of Christ" , or in the vocabulary of John, this "having of Christ is conditional upon continuing IN HIM. And it is Jesus who makes this clear in John 15:6.

@@joev2223 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered ...." The life is (intrinsically) not in us, it is in Christ alone. "In HIM WAS LIFE; and the life was the light of men." (John 1:4) And the life is in us by virtue of Christ who gives us life. Going back to John 10:28, you may want to note that the Greek present tense is employed: "I am GIVING THEM eternal life and they shall never perish " This is exactly the picture given by Jesus in John 15 of all who ABIDE (Gk: CONTINUE) . Note that the word "abide / continue" used by Jesus in John 15:4, 6, 7, 10 in a close cognate of the same word employed conditionally by Paul in Colossians 1:23) We should note also that Jesus refers to eternal life in two mutually exclusive and opposite ways: On the one hand , all who are believing and continuing in him are possessing Christ, and thereby possessing eternal life. Eternal life in this sense is intimately tied to our union with Christ . And just as in the metaphorical analogy to the vine, every branch in any vine on earth, when severed , quickly perishes. It is a relationship of dependency. The life is real but not absolute. It is conditional upon continuance. "Be not high-minded BUT FEAR, for IF God spared NOT the natural branches take heed lest He spare NOT YOU! Behold therefore the goodness and SEVERITY of God. On them which fell, severity; but toward YOU, goodness, IF YOU CONTINUE in His goodness: otherwise YOU also shall be CUT OFF." (Romans 11:20-22) And this is the meaning of Hebrews 2:3 "How shall WE escape, IF WE neglect so great salvation ...?" But Jesus and Paul both speak of receiving eternal life on the last day also. "But he SHALL RECEIVE .....in the world to come ETERNAL LIFE." (Mark 10:30) "To them who BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE in well doing SEEK for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE" (Romans 2:7) "In HOPE of ETERNAL LIFE, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" .... "For we are saved by HOPE: but HOPE THAT IS SEEN is not HOPE: for what a man sees, why does he yet HOPE for?" (Titus 1:2; Romans 8:24) "Who SHALL .... receive ... in the AGE to COME LIFE EVERLASTING." (Luke 18:30) [Compare those who fell away, who: "were made partakers of the Holy Ghost ... and HAVE TASTED .... the powers of the AGE to COME" Heb. 6:4, 6] "And SHALL inherit EVERLASTING LIFE.". Matt. 19:19. So "Eternal Life" is not a blank cheque for those who at any point in time past have once truly believed. Eternal life has two distinct phases to it. It is defined and characterised by the Lord Himself who is eternal, AND NOT MERELY by the bare adjective "eternal". Whoever ABIDES IN Christ finds that the LIFE is in him . Whoever departs from Christ in an evil heart of unbelief (Heb. 3:12) finds himself cast forth from the LIVING VINE. (John 15:6). Jesus makes clear who it is that abides in him . Hearing and Hearkening to Christ is about ABIDING in him : IF YOU CONTINUE in my word, THEN are YOU my disciples indeed .... He that is of God HEARS God's words: you therefore HEAR THEM NOT, because ye are not of God". (John 8:31, 47) Whosoever HEARS Christ shall never perish . No one can pluck such a person from Christ's hand. But notice two things here that Christ himself warns : 1) Anyone IN CHRIST who does NOT ABIDE IN CHRIST, will be REMOVED , not my man, but by the Father who first planted them into Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30; John 15:15:2, 6) 2) Christ will give us at last a CROWN of LIFE. But we must guard and not allow ourselves to be drawn away from Him. We MUST HOLD FAST that which we have in Christ that "No man take thy CROWN" (James 1:12; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 3:11) Calvinists build a definition and arguments about "eternal life" out of nothing but pure human reasoning. There is not a shred of this teaching either in Scripture, nor in the entire Christian church through history until the rise of Calvinism . It is based upon a false handling of an adjective and NEGLECT of the Greek grammar . They wrest Scripture unto their own damnation. Paul teaches us indeed that we can "DIE" after having received "eternal life" "But she that livs in pleasure is DEAD while she lives ... Having damnation, BECAUSE they have CAST OFF their first FAITH." (1 Tim. 5:6, 12) "For if YOU live after the flesh, YOU SHALL DIE: but if YOU through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, YOU SHALL LIVE" (Romans 8:13) As also warns the prophet : "WHENEVER I shall say to the RIGHTEOUS (The JUST by Faith) , that he shall surely LIVE; IF he trust to his own righteousness and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, HE SHALL DIE ...". (Ezekiel 33:13) Ezekiel here describes those acquitted through faith in Christ. Though they were made righteous, though they were a true sheep of Christ , even though God declared him righteous , even though God declared he would live, God warns that he shall die if he trusts in his once having been justified and does not continue in Christ. There is no blank cheque written for those who believe in Christ: " Follow peace with all men, and HOLINESS, WITHOUT which NO MAN SHALL SEE the LORD: Looking diligently LEST ANY man FAIL of the GRACE of God ...." Hebrews 12:14-15

@@joev2223 Another brief note from the Grammar of John 5:24 as it relates to John 10:28. Jesus first characterises the sheep as "Hearers" of his voice. He does not say they "do" hear his voice as though this is an intrinsic unalterable property.. He simply points out that the sheep are those that hear. This is what separates them from those who are not sheep. (John 8:47) And when we no longer hear him, we may no longer remain his sheep (Hebrews 12:25; John 6:66; Hebrews 10:38) "By faith Abraham HEARKENED" to the Lord (Heb. 11:8). BUT through disobedience Saul "TURNED BACK from following" the Lord (1 Sam. 15:11) And Saul also was admonished: Why then did you not OBEY the VOICE of the LORD ...? Behold, to OBEY is better than sacrifice, and to HEARKEN than the fat of rams. ... You HAVE rejected the word of the LORD" And as a consequence of his refusal to abide in Christ, the Lord subsequently also took away the Holy Spirit from Saul (1 Samuel 16:14; Psalm 51:11) "The Spirit of the LORD DEPARTED FROM Saul". (1 Samuel 15:11, 22, 23) In the parallelism , particularly employed in 1 Samuel 15, we learn that TO HEARKEN to the Lord means TO OBEY Him. Many Calvinists bandy the term "My sheep hear my voice" about as though Christ speaks of a mystical and comfortable hearing. But in reality , hearing Christ is the very essence of the new man and it produces genuine change. And hearing of Christ produces obedience to his Word. That is why he says: "IF you continue in My Word , then are you my disciples indeed" and again .... "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love" (John 8:31; 15:10) It is an absolute delusion to imagine that a Christian has security when they refuse to keep Christ's commandments. Hearing Christ is indeed a fruit of conversion. And we can never earn salvation. But refusing Christ means that, like Saul, we cannot abide in Him either ... And so he repeats to us today what he also said to his people so long ago by David in Psalm 95:7, 8 ....... "To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will HEAR his voice, harden not your hearts ... Let US LABOUR therefore to enter into that REST, LEST ANY man FALL after the same example of UNBELIEF." (Hebrews 4:7, 11) Entering that "Rest" is contingent upon "HEARING" his VOICE and NOT falling by unbelief and hardening our hearts. (Psalm 95:7; Hebrews 4:7, 11; John 10:28)

@@joev2223 @Joe V I was reflecting upon another side of the nature of Koine Greek grammar, and that is that quality of verbs known as ASPECT by Greek Grammarians. It is often discussed in the grammars and I realise that ignorance of an understanding of VERBAL ASPECT is perhaps the most serious matter that changes everything VERBAL ASPECT is exactly akin to what we call in English, POINT OF VIEW. Greek verbal Aspect is very much from the standpoint of the speaker. And Greek Present tense (which is Apectually ONGOING and DURATIVE ) has been compared to a great ball game at some public arena. Imagine the recent world cup, for example .... You are part of the crowd, the game is intense and it has just entered the second half. The outcome has not been concluded ... YET. But you are describing the event as it happens in real time. That is the normal ASPECT of Greek Present Tense. In stark contrast is Greek Aorist Tense. This is punctiliar (almost exclusively). It is momentary, like a sudden goal or a punch to the mouth. But Greek present tense depicts ONGOING action (unless contextual factors modify it) and not only that, it is Aspectually from the point of view of an onlooker immersed in the scene. It's really quite amazing . Now in most English discussions on John 5, 6, 10 we find the theology is altogether other than what Jesus presents us with. We find people treating the text as though a single past act of believing and hearing is what has occured in order to combine to create the scenario. And this is simply a fabrication which falsifies entirely the underpinning grammar used by the Lord. It has changed the Lord's words into something altogether FOREIGN to his meaning. Consider then John 10:27, 28 "Aspectually". "My sheep ARE HEARERS of my voice and I AM KNOWING THEM and THEY ARE FOLLOWING ME and I AM GIVING unto them ETERNAL LIFE ....." Notice firstly that Jesus does not say in this passage that he has "given eternal life" to them. But rather from his own Aspect, he "is giving eternal life" to a specific subset of persons, "sheep who ARE HEARING" his voice. Jesus elaborates upon this condition in John 15. And we shall see that the theology of John 5 and 10 and 15 is also summarised by the writer to the Hebrews, who explains this precise idea to us. We see then that conditional language is comprised of more than mere "IF ... THEN" statements in Greek. (And the Lord does this also in John 8:31). But Greek language, as other languages also, may set conditional statements simply by first stating parameters that must be met. And here in John 10, Jesus does this by very specific use of an ongoing condition , by means of present tense statements. The sheep are those who are hearing Christ's voice. It is they, and they alone who are being given eternal life. And we should also note a distinction that the Lord himself makes here. Because Jesus also describes the gift of eternal life which HAS NIT BEEN RECEIVED YET , BUT that will only be received on Judgement Day: "But he SHALL RECEIVE ... in the world to come ETERNAL LIFE." (Mark 10:30) "And these SHALL go away into everlasting punishment: BUT THE RIGHTEOUS INTO LIFE ETERNAL." (Matthew 25:46) And to this Paul agrees: "To them who BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE in well doing SEEK for glory and honour and IMMORTALITY, ETERNAL LIFE" (Romans 2:7) Clearly there Eternal Life is spoken of in two very different ways in the Gospel. There is unquestionably Eternal Life flowing from Jesus right now, to those who continue in his Word (John 8:31), who hear his voice (John 10:27). It is entirely dependent upon ABIDING in the source of that life (John 15:6). But there is also the impartation of permanent gift of God of Eternal Life on Judgement Day. And this award is yet future. Now All Scripture is given by Inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine. We do not build doctrine by human reasoning. And the traditional semi Calvinist reasoning which says "if it were eternal it could not be lost" is a product of the deceit of man's heart (Jeremiah 23:26) Would you hold that the Life described by the Lord in John 5 and 10 cannot be lost , even though it is qualified by those who "are hearing Christ" ? Ezekiel explicitly states that God will reverse this status for every person who does not remain in His Word: "When I shall say to the RIGHTEOUS, that he shall surely LIVE; IF he trust to his own righteousness, and COMMIT INIQUITY, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but FOR HIS INIQUITY that he hath committed, HE SHALL DIE for it." (Ezekiel 33:13) Be not deceived, God is not mocked. This is precisely what Paul warns in Romans 8:13 "For IF YOU live after the flesh, YOU shall DIE: but IF YOU through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, YOU SHALL LIVE." Now let's consider how the author to the Hebrews, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, harmonises these ideas: "For we ARE BECOME PARTAKERS of CHRIST ... IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" (Hebrews 3:14) This text is nothing short of remarkable. He employs the Greek Prefect tense here. "ARE BECOME" . The perfect tense refers to a present ongoing reality which is the result of a past act. And all grammars teach it has ongoing results , (which nevertheless may be changed). Some translators translate it as a past tense verb depending on the focus but all grammars teach it is a past action with present results . So ......We ARE BECOME PARTAKERS of CHRIST ... IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end WHOSOEVER is PARTAKER of Christ, Has Christ. He has the Son of God. And, "He that hath the Son, hath LIFE. And he that hath not the Son, hath NOT life" (1 John 5:12) But notice now that we have Christ now, CONDITIONALLY..... We ARE BECOME PARTAKERS of CHRIST ... IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end This is why all the Law and the Prophets and the Lord and the Apostles warn us REPEATEDLY that we call fall away and perish. And it is for this reason that the author to the Hebrews admonishes us: "TAKE HEED, brethren, lest there be in any of you an EVIL HEART of UNBELIEF, in DEPARTING FROM the living God." (Hebrews 3:12) And perhaps now, you can understand why the writer points out 2 verses later that our Participation in Christ is conditional upon steadfast continuance. "For we ARE BECOME PARTAKERS of CHRIST ... IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" (Hebrews 3:14) There are of course many passages that deal with this theme. And the Lord himself is forefront with warnings about continuing steadfast to the end in his word. We also find other, additional warnings in Paul's writings and especially in Hebrews. But there is enough here to clarify this vital truth. One of my friends, a former Calvinist, described this false doctrine of "eternal security" as "THE GREATEST DELUSION OF HIS LIFE". And it is a most deadly delusion, which has accounted for the apostasy of countless souls who did not work out their salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING.. "HAVING DAMNATION, because they have CAST OFF their first FAITH." (1 Timothy 5:12) " And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others SAVE WITH FEAR, pulling them OUT OF THE FIRE; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." (Jude 1:22-23) " Brethren, IF ANY OF YOU do err from the truth, and one CONVERT HIM; Let him know, that he which CONVERTETH the SINNER from the error of his way shall SAVE A SOUL FROM DEATH, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)