HEMA Tournaments: My Feelings & Thoughts About Them in 2018. Some ramblings thoughts about how I view tournaments in HEMA and where my place is with them now. / scholagladiatoria / historicalfencing
Fantastic video, brought up a variety of important points that I think people often forget. It was also very interesting to hear how your personal feelings on tournaments have changed over the years. I'm interested in tournaments, but for me it's mainly as an intense stress test for techniques... I would struggle to not go into a fight with a list of things I wanted to make work under pressure. XD The prize I would most like to take home from a tournament would be that (win or lose) my fencing was considered excellent throughout. One of the cool things about HEMA for me is that there are so many ways to excel, so many valuable approaches. Some people love the tournaments, or sparring, or the history, or instructing, or translating, or cutting (the list goes on). Everyone has their own priorites or specialities, but they're all valuable.
Very interesting points, nice video =) As my father once told me when I asked him if he missed fighting Judo. "You know, there is an age for everything, an age for strength and an age for calm, I've done my fair share of fighting and have no regrets now that I'm not of this age anymore." :)
I largely agree, though veer slightly more towards the 'not so interested in tournaments' approach. Did them for years, now bored. But I think its a valuable experience for people to go through. About your point towards the end, not needing tournaments to fight lots of varied opponents. This is the part that interests me the most. The reason I have given up on events lately is simply because I got bored of days packed full of lessons and tournaments. Even when there are sparring areas, so many event participants are busy with those lessons and tournaments. I'd love to see more emphasis on that sparring with varied opponents. Really it needs events more dedicated to that free time for people to fight as they please.
I would definitely love to have more videos on "Preparing for the tourney" type stuff... What kind of drills and training do you recommend to your students for them to master the art? How do you hone their technique for them to excel against another opponent in a one-on-one setting? These are the kinds of questions I'd really be interested in hearing your perspective on for sure... On top of your other regular videos for sure...
I think a lot of the benefit from tournaments comes from them being few and far between. You get one chance to win, and if you fail it's another year usually before you can try again. That surely raises the stakes, and that can be viewed as a sort of substitute for fearing for one's life in real combat.
ive dabbled in judo and went to a tourni once, i felt that it was actually less about fighting and more about building a wider community. its a chance to meet new people through the sport and trade knowledge and skills with them. who wins the fight isnt all that important. in fact some of the best fights ive had were fights that i lost! haha.
More Hema specific stuff would be good. 20 years of competitive combat is a long time, a gnarled veteran say in historic terms. So your at a time when you should be revered as say an Elder, someone who contributes by sharing your experience, teaching and coaching as you said. So now is a time to use your experience to help grow Hema into a respected Martial Art equivalent to other Martial Arts. So maybe its a time to put your energies into Fight Camp and maybe writing,more videos and passing on your experience. Maybe there is a need for a 21st Century Treatise specifically for Hema or a Turnierbuch possibly. Long live Hema.
I am ABSOLUTELY with you man. I'm a long time martial artist turning 41 this year and I feel exactly the same way. I've won gold medals in national and world competitions in the past but in my last tournament I took a bronze and watched the only person older than me get wheeled out of my ring on a stretcher. Trying to fight guys in their twenties and early thirties, why am I still doing this? Do I even like this anymore? And the answer I cam to is I don't really think I need this in my life anymore. It also doesn't help that it costs hundreds of dollars a year to go to these tournaments.
bkLEGION3000 Just reality. The greatest most famous pro athletes all retire. You don't have to drop HEMA though. Lots to do that doesn't involve bruises and back injuries.
Eddard honestly when it comes to martial arts you can learn every relevant technique in about 2 years. Fancy or flashy techniques are rarely useable in actual combat. The rest is just developing muscle memory. At my competition level everyone is at least black belt (minimum 3 years training). Unfortunately there isn't an unlimited experience curve in reality. (I should add that I am talking about traditional eastern hand to hand martial arts. Though I fenced in college and practice with katana for fun.)
I'm not saying I'm no longer good because I'm old. Locally I'm one of the best in the state. Still Fast and stronger than ever. What I am saying is the CHANCE of getting seriously injured is going up and up the older I get. Even training for high level events is brutally hard because you have to train every week with other top performers to simulate high level competition. One fraction of a second bad landing, twisted ankle, blown knee or other injury can put you out for 3 months or more. Anyone in a fighting sport will know what I mean. The #1 topic of conversation is always who got hurt doing what and who is still broken or coming back. Thankfully I have never needed surgery or anything a few months rest didn't fix. It's getting to the point I just don't feel like abusing my body to prepare for these things. I'm considering joining a nice quiet cardio boxing class.
Yeah injury risk in training is the big factor , u definitely get more annoying joint stuff past 35 As I’m sure u know it’s the mileage , I wrestled before hema and yeah it’s hammered the joints I’ve had surgery twice and should have it on my elbow and knee but martial arts too good
It's fun, but I wouldn't say good exercise. Especially if it's only weekly or biweekly practice. Definitely needs to be supported by regular exercise. Sabre while give you forearms of iron after drills though!
Greg Thewestgaredneck are you able to stand and walk under your own power? Can you wave a stick around? If yes then you are not to old to learn. You may not achieve the highest levels of training but you can still have fun and exercise.
You're never too old to start. I actually started up taekwondo in my 40s and actually got my black belt and this is despite not being in the most athletic shape as well as being about as flexible as a brick. You do it for the fun of it and maybe a little light exercise. You're probably too old to be competitive, but who cares so long as you're having fun. You don't have to compete, I never did (in TKD) and it never bothered me in the least.
Go for it dude. I'm closer to forty than thirty, have a slightly bum knee, and am in pretty poor shape, and I just started HEMA a few months ago. I'm having tons fun and getting good exercise. My club does some good conditioning along with the technique. That's really why I started. It seemed like a fun way to get some exercise, and it is. I might wind up doing competitive some day, say a year or two down the line and only if I feel the urge, but there's nothing saying that everyone has to do competitive, or even pick up HEMA for any particular reason. If you want to do it, do it.
Matt, you raise some great points; you may have rambled, but not pointlessly. I have competed in USFA (USA sport fencing back in the 1980's) as well as in the country western dancing circuit (two world championships, team open category). I wouldn't say we are the best dancers in the world, just the best who showed up. I would encourage everyone to at least try competition, as it is a very different experience from club bouts. They will learn more about themselves and be better fighters for it. One other insight I would like to present (Lloyd should bear this out) is that social Lindy Hop dancing is excellent preparation for dealing with the unexpected. I have been dancing that for about 20 years, and it has actually improved my reflexes (and stamina). I recommend it highly. P.S. Thank you for making me aware of HEMA. There is a chapter near me, in Pasadena, California, and I'm thinking of paying them a visit next weekend!
I love the point you made about fighting different fencers, which is the very reason I love going to events and fight completely new people from completely new clubs, it's always a great experience. Edit: Also, Kristoffer Stansson is a monster with a rapier.
The closest comparable experience I've had was when I briefly used to play American Football on a student team. We had a lot of fun bashing each other and we took comfort in that the gear would protect us, so we could go all out when tackling each other. It meant that we became so comfortable with being rough with our friends, that it became much easier to confront people from other teams.
6 лет назад
I always saw competition as a learning tool, not a hubris flasher. Of course some people do (in every kind of practices) but at the end, you compete following your own reasons, nothing else.
My club is hosting a tournament, one of the biggest in Spain (which isn't saying that much, there aren't many), and I'm looking forward to take part, we don't get many chances of fencing with different people. I missed it last year (when a different club was hosting it) so this will be my first tournament. some people are coming from Belgiun, if you came too, we could call it a proper International Tournament!
I learned foil from an Olympics bronze medal winner. He was long past his competition days but man, did I learn a lot. Didn't matter that he wasn't competing. And I'll say that I never beat him. The one time I came even slightly close I got up three to none on him. At that point he looked at me with an intent expression I hadn't seen before and said "You're really going for it today." It was like he shifted not just gears, but shifted personality entirely. It was all over after that. Didn't even come close to another touch, and here's the thing: he was left handed but was fencing right-handed with a French grip. He often did this, partly to make it more interesting for himself I think. He switched his right-handed foil to the left and if the the wrong grip bothered him I can't imagine what it would have been like with a proper one.
Hey Matt, I agree with all of your rambling thoughts. spot on. Also, what if some skilled historians were to compile a list of techniques that actually worked in battle, and there was a meetup to train in such methods?
Man I'm right there too. I recently got to the point of being allowed to do a little sparring, and it was sobering. Last class I wound up against a guy that moved like greased lightning. I couldn't even get into proper measure, let alone hope to land a hit. Another time I wound up against another member who countered so smoothly and changed the angles so well, I felt like attacking him was a mistake, and I should just try to wait for his attack and counter him. Sadly that too was a mistake. My goal for now is to land a hit against either of them.
just a thought, I am a shotgun and field bow enthusiast, both instinctual aim. I have noticed when I try too hard it does not flow. Do you think a zen approach to just doing your thing, which I am sure you are practiced at with, " no thought ", I have pondered over our reactions in certain situations ie competition?
Agree with you 100%. I prefer not competing in official matches (for anything) bot because I don't usually win, but because it turns into this official ranking, when in reality, there's lots of factors that influence any given outcome, and even the best can get upstaged on a bad day. I'd rather secure a greater than 50% win/loss in numerous private matches versus people I consider top in their field, rather than a single competition match. But I do love the initial challenge of figuring out a new opponent in a do-or-die scenario. That's the big downside to competing with the same people over and over - you lose that as you memorize each other.
Fencing in a tournament: It is a real mind game that really can make or break your performance and can definitely either make you win or lose, especially with fenceres that are all competent.
I don't know about HEMA but in modern fencing we have people in their 60's who still fence against opponents in their 20's and they do quite well. Their styles has changed usually relying on blade work over footwork and fencing overall smarter not harder. One of them who is in their 50's and is still rated in all 3 weapons has this philosophy, 1. Don't get hurt 2. Have Fun 3. Get the next touch. I think if you go to competitions just for the fun of it then its less stressful. Also being the head of their schools if your students do well then you still look good too.
Cut your crap mate, you are not old, and competition is not always about proving anything, it's about having fun fencing with other peoples. I have seen and fought with, and lost to men that were 60 or 70+ years old, and i have done 2 years of internationnal junior fencing (épée). You are never too old for going in competition. Plus, that is usually the perfect time to get a beer with some firends too :p
That's the thing though - the competition format is just unnecessary stress if you're just aiming to have fun fighting strangers. Just go to a fencing symposium/convention and you can fight with all the right intent (or at whatever comfort level you wish, if you specify to your fencing partner) while not needing to deal with all the suffocating formalities and unnecessary tournament stress. Inter-club bouting events are good for this too. I've been fencing in tournaments at state and national levels for almost a decade. The waiting between fights never gets any easier and I've been fighting with anxiety for far longer than that.
Regarding your point on those who better under pressure compared to those who do worse. On a Joe Rogan podcast, they mentioned how it's a matter of excitement. Some need more stimulation and some need to be calmed to get to the right range. They will then modify the way they talk to the athlete, music, etc.
Hey! 41 isn't so old to be competing - #3 longsword fencer based on HEMA ratings is mid 40s, and a few of the rest of us in the top 20 last year were in our 40s too. :)
I don't do HEMA, no time. But I do think in any sport (i do rowing and weightlifting) youve to set challenges for yourself. I don't know how you do that in a martial art without competing. My advice is it's very healthy to keep competing in your middle age (I'm 45). Maybe still compete, but train hard for one competition a year. Anyway, just my little nugget, good luck, keep going - it never ends
If you have a large group in a hall sparring, it's almost a tournament every session if it's advanced night, it's just sparring but winner stays on as far as I see it. I'll be down Tuesdays at SG1 next month Matt, I've arranged for some family members to look after my son for me those nights, Wooooo.
Do you think the self-control you need to compete in a tournament can be compared to the self-control you would have needed in a real historical duel - or do you think it is a completely different kind of skill you would need to keep yourself cool ect.?
Interesting question. I think it would be a difficult comparison to make. People back then had a different mindset and attitude towards violence, death, honor, and just about everything than they do today. Society and people are just different. And that depends on which century you're really talking about. I mean, just look back fifty years from today and society has vastly different values. And there's no real modern equivalent to judicial/honor duels. The best you have is perhaps combat sports like the UFC. They do technically risk death, but it's a different and less immediate threat than when a sword or similar instrument is present. The competitors are generally in it for a combination of money and competitive spirit, the latter of which I suppose can be compared to satisfying the obligations and honor of the past era, but it's not really a close comparison, just a "best fit."
I would love to see commentary/analysis on fencing, similar to esports. (traditional sports casting is fairly dry and lacking in analysis in my experience).
Matt is a veteran man-at-arms!!! I also think the big thing about tournaments is that hema actually was originaly meant to fight people who you dont know! Think about it if you are going to duel a guy its not gonna be the friend you sparr daily with its gonna be the other guy from another school who you dont know, or if you are trained in the 19th century as a british officer, you probably wouldnt fight other british officers, you would face other nationalities systems of saber, so tournaments are indeed more hema then you think.
I think there are two sports now, HEMA based on historcal sources, and I will call it "modern sword fencing" MSF that´s fencing with federsword using tecniques that work in tournamentes with specific rulesets and specific equipment.
I know it's not HEMA, but some of the best archers I have met yet are middle aged. Also: Performance anxiety is weird thing. How the pressure pushes the adrenaline and how it blocks your body and breathing control.
Tournaments are an important part of HEMA. They teach skills like being able to read opponents, stress testing your techniques and working under pressure. However, ultimately they are combat sports and rules vary across tournaments. I've seen great fencing as well as poor fencing win the day with poor technique but speed that allows them to win by tagging vs solid cuts/thrusts.
i personally would love hearing more about competitive hema. maybe you could do commentary - i know i've really liked when you do commentary on casual sparring too.
When it comes to your personal situation, I think that you don't always have to prove your skill and knowledge yourself. Coaching and training someone else is also a way to prove your own expertise.
How about a tournament of survival? Every contestant get's a set number of HP which are a reversed form of scores for the entire tournament. A hit to the head/body substracts 2 hp, a hit in the arm substracts 1 hp. The rounds last 40-60 seconds, if by the end of the round no one lands a hit, both players lose 1 hp. The number of rounds is optional. The catch here is to make people care about strategical objective ie survival. The goal is to hit the enemy but not get hit in return a 4 score double hit won't put you ahead of you opponent if you lose 2 hitpoints yourself and will have a worse position against the next guy.
So, while you'll probably never be in an actual sword fight these days outside of certain places where machetes are popular civilian weapons, the basic principles of combat and fighting are more or less the same regardless of style or arms. I fenced epee for well over a decade, and I when I picked up boxing, the advantage that knowing basic combat fundamentals gave me was huge. Like, I actually cant overstate the edge (pun intended honestly) that fencing gave me over my peers, even those more advanced me. Its almost like fencing gave me a a different set of combat axioms to operate off of, so it was kind of like a southpaw advantage (in that it's psychological/strategic edge than an actual tangible advantage like reach or target area)
Competing is something I worry about. I got into HEMA fairly late, I probably don't have that many years of competition in me - and I'm a slow learner. :P I've never been the healthiest person (I really won the genetic lottery there!) and I've never been very athletic as a result. It might be a goal beyond my reach but secretly, deep down, I hope one day to win a medal in something. I'm not saying I'd take the gold in longsword at swordfish or something but to just place somewhere... just something to prove that I existed...
I have to admit that the sheer difference between combative sword usage and olympic fencing completely puts me off of fencing, largely because of how minimal the impacts are that count as hits and how quickly the fights end because of that. Most people are not going to give up in a life or death situation simply because you sort of hurt their shoulder a bit. I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to see it as anything other than interpretative stick poking. I'm a tad naive about competition HEMA but if they have solved that problem and only score points on things that would genuinely harm or cease a person's ability to fight then it might be less dumb and more interesting to watch. Maybe include Barfight HEMA as a side category?
Matt at 13:50 ish you speak of proving yourself as an instructor, the historical sources are chock full of fencing masters setting up schools in cities and constantly upon opening their doors, every master in the surrounding area would harass them with challenges. It's completely normal and expected so don't feel bad like it's boasting or being egotistical, you're good, you have to "Show those people, you are the master of your business" as Donald McBane always put it.
A bit of a nitpick, but still - Fiore says he was challenged to an armorless duel 5 times, not that he was in any sort of a fight only five times, be it in barriers, on battlefield or in street self defence.
Interesting. Does competition in HEMA inevitably produce those that 'game the system' - so ultra aggressive with good technique, and not technically outstanding fluid martial ARTISTS? The same is of Piano competitions and modern conservatoires - almost all students play to win; rather than playing to develop themselves as true Artists. Too much M, not enough A? Too much 'winning ugly'? Not enough beauty? Not enough soul?
I did taekwondo a couple of years at the university, and looking back, my best combat was always yo avenge the loss of a teammate. Especially if they said something at the start like "get him for me!" 😁
This is a little depressing to hear for a HEMA beginner who's 48 years old... I get what you're saying though, but I do feel I've missed the boat sometimes.
As long as you have the drive and you have fun, there is absolutely no reason to stop doing what you do. And it's always better starting something at 48 than never starting it and having regrets. Cheers!
It's less about capabilities than attitude. So you're never going to be a world level competitor. The vast majority of HEMA practitioners aren't either. If you want to compete, if you have the drive, then do it. Start at your level, whatever it is and push forward. See how far you can get. Personally, I'm playing it by ear. I've started mainly viewing it as a fun way of getting exercise, but the thought of competing percolates. I'm still a long way off of being ready, but maybe some day.
Thanks guys, that's encouraging :-) It's not like I'm put off or anything, either, it just feels weird to hear someone several years younger, who's been practising for decades, say this when I'm a. older and b. a beginner! I'm not interested in competing, beyond the occasional club tournament, and swinging a sword is way too much fun to not do it. I have noticed that it takes me longer - longer to build the required muscles and endurance, longer to "get" things, and all that. Then again, who cares? Ten years from now I'll be glad I started now.
If you don't know someone's tactics and skills it is much harder to fight them. I used to play some soul calibur online and I fought someone with a 98% win and I gave him one of his losses.(over 2000 matches) I'm guessing he just hasn't seen the tactics I used before but he adapted really fast. If i fought him again i'm sure I would lose because those tactics don't work on my brother. (because he has seen them dozens of times)
Does anyone use tournaments as a chance to work some new things out? I've only participated in club tournaments for epee, although people from other clubs also compete in our club tournaments. We have a handicap system to even up things a bit. I don't compete to win (although I have placed high many times) and I often try out new tactics and strategies, especially when my handicap is too high (eg, my opponent starts six points up) to fence normally. I'm also not a naturally fit person, so I also use the fact of being tired and cramping as a way to try out tactics and strategies to hold my own against someone much fitter.
I would love to get involved in HEMA but unfortunately their is just nothing around my area and even if I could gather a group of like minded individuals none of us would be experienced enough to really get started on our own.
That's exactly how modern HEMA began. People found and explored the manuals and tried to figure them out for themselves. There are ways to do it. Get the manuals (including more modern products). RU-vid is a good source for instructional videos. Network with others in the field and seek out advice as you can. Post videos of your training sessions and again, seek advice from reputable sources (Blood and Iron offers video analysis to Patreon supporters). Definitely harder than just going out and joining a nearby club, but if you decide to go for it, best of luck to you.
Good points. But quoting Fiore like that is a bit confusing. What he says is that he had to defend his life 5 times away from home or friends against people who were envious of him with jackets and leather gloves. That doesn't really mean these were his only uses of the art "for real". For example, he further says that he would prefer fighting in armour a handfull of times instead of once out of armour, which implies he has experience with both.
As a Dagorhir Fighter for 11 years now, I absolutely understand you. Dagorhir is a mix of LARP and foam reenactment combat, but there are many in the game who are super-focused on tournaments and personal skill. For these people, it doesn't matter as much if they have fun, as long as they win. I never had that. It is purely fun for me, and i have a lot of fun fighting an opponent who challenges me. In short, i get where you're coming from, because I have been there as a leader of my own Dagorhir group for a few years now.
Hmmm I like to watch... But three things I have found fascinating about U tube videos... I can watch vikings hacking and slashing their enemies with great interest and enjoyment, but to watch a video duel with two people pretending to fight to the death, suddenly becomes quite sad and tragic...I have always thought of the rapier as having a big reach advantage over a katana and a sure winner, but the thrust movement can put a person well forward and able to get chopped by the opponent whether the rapier finds its mark or not. .. The stab from the rapier may not stop the opponent for a few seconds in which they can inflict serious damage...I have come to think of the curve blade as a purely slashing weapon but there is a stabbing move with a curve blade, I had never seen before and that is where they, turn the blade upside down, come in high, then feed the point of the blade down into the base of the unfortunate persons throat. Interesting and scary.
I think wining against a very good opponent is one of the most satisfactory feelings in life and it is kinda addictive.So you should keep on entering tournaments and stay competitive unless you are 100% sure that you will get your ass kicked bad . Get over that mid age crisis ! XD
Experience and pressure. But also something else and not confined to the tiournement Not aggression, though it can turn to that, but a steely, very strong intent or will or level of intense focus of spirit? Hard to put into words but something of the fixed glare of a Terrier before its quarry. Hunting.
Well, fitness is part of the skillset. If you are faster and quicker you will win over a slower opponent. Experience does level it out a bit but not much
Eddard You might be able to see the blow coming but if your body fails to react appropriately because of age to counter it than what's the point? Your younger opponent is still faster and stronger than you. That's why pro athletes retire to become coaches and teachers. Better to put all that accumulated experience and skills to use teaching the next generation.
Eddard It's a pretty well known fact that testosterone production in males start to dwindle when they hit their forties. Testosterone is vital for maintaining muscle mass, that's why athletes are at their physical apex in their late teens and twenties when testosterone production is at it's peak.Proportionally, younger men have a massive strength, speed and stamina advantage over older but experienced combatants. Skill can only get you so far but if your opponent is faster, stronger and knows what he's doing in a fight there's only so much you can do until you're completely overwhelmed.
Eddard Sure, a relatively fit, experienced but aged combatant has distinct advantage over an inexperienced younger opponent of mediocre fitness. However in a competitive setting the skill gap is much closer and eventually as you move up in the competition you will be facing off against younger opponents who are undoubtedly of equal or higher skill. You can bet they will press every advantage they have against an older opponent and inevitably defeat him. It's sad but that's just how aging and life works. The most successful athletes tend to retire at their peak before their age catch us up to them.
First off, footwork can be many things. Some might define "good" footwork through their own lenses which might be one particular branch of sword activities without realizing that there are many types of footwork within just one fighting art. With that said, I too, have found more than a few HEMAists with "poor" footwork. When I say poor, I mean off balance, out of sink, sort of sloppy footwork that leads them to being caught in situations where although they might hit the other, it is usaully out of chance and without any reason or science behind it. I think this can stem from the fact that what most people want to do in HEMA or any other kind of sword activity is "swordfight" and for them this means moving a sword or similar object around and doing cool things with it which in turn translates into more time being spent on doing bladework and less time on doing other more footwork related things like skipping rope, agility ladders, plyometrics, sprinting, and balance boards all of which have been shown to increase footwork abilities in other combat sports such as boxing and fencing.
You said that you feel like you have to proof yourself in tournaments to show that you are worth to teach others. But I don't think that this is the case at all. You may be a extremly good fencer and instructor but loose in competition. Maybe because of the preasure and maybe because you are not good in adapting very fast. Even though you could be the very best instructor and teacher who has ever lived. Just look at football. At some time players get to old to compete against the younger players. So they become a coach. And some very good and succesful coaches havn't been even good players. In my eyes competing und teaching are to different things. You don't have to be good at one of it to be good at the other one as well. You could suck at competing and be brilliant at teaching at the same time ;-)
Without competition of some kind at least sparring, any martial art ceases to be remotely "martial" and becomes delusional because there is no corrective mechanism
