Magnificent! This was not what I expected when I clicked on the link. Szeryng really runs with it. Ignoring the lengthy debate below, which added nothing to my understanding of the music, or music in general, or art, or creativity, I'll just contribute a couple of small points. In our day we're used to hearing Baroque music played on period instruments, learned performances, often beautiful and accomplished, that attempt to recapture the music as it might have sounded when it was written. But we're lucky to be hearing this music at all. It was effectively forgotten to most audiences all through the 19th and early 20th century and owed its rediscovery to 20th century musicians who approached it with a 20th century aesthetic. Think of Stokowski's Bach transcriptions and so forth. To those of us raised with "period" performances it's easy to forget that it was people like Busoni and Stokowski who played key roles in bringing Baroque music back into the concert halls. And here's the key point. The reason this was a success was that Baroque music was written by composers who EXPECTED musicians to bring a great deal of their own creativity to the music. This is why a Baroque manuscript could contain so little information, no dynamics, just an unrealized figured bass line, etc. Often instrumentation wasn't even defined, with treble lines being played by violins, or flutes, or oboes ... or whatever was at hand in the right range. So when someone like Szeryng brings his own creativity to the music, he is, in fact, in a certain respect keeping true to the composer's intention. We may or may not like the final result, but that is predominantly a question of personal taste and preference of the listener. In cases like this recording it's certainly not a question of skill levels. Szeryng was a student of Nadia Boulanger, had a thorough understanding of composition principles and a superb technical mastery of the instrument. What we hear is exactly what he intended us to hear. So if we don't like it our only basis for criticism is personal preference and personal "taste". Personally, I really enjoyed this recording. My tastes are rather eclectic. I enjoy the period performances very much and generally click on those first. I'm NOT a fan of Stokowski's huge orchestral versions of Bach. But I'm grateful to all the great artists that have contributed their lives to the making of classical music, a world of art so vast that we will never know it all, a world open to endless exploration. Explore. Enjoy!
Very well said i agree completely with "Editions Rameau" ! I also loved this performance from this phenomenal violinist. I was expecting something romantic in a kind of cheesy way , but he totally felt every note in the deepest way.
let me answer that. I heard this piece from another violinist. Corelli's last name was Kreisler's. So it was not the Baroque itself, but the treatment of this piece by another violinist. And I understand that none of the commenters below are smarter than Szeryng )
I wish more people in the classical music world think in that way... Baroque means ornaments, improvisation, variations. Bach would improvise a fugue and maybe never played it the same way again. Now it's all about being accurate and "respecting" the compositor.
Imagine if everyone just performed the same way and only stuck to playing period instruments for Baroque pieces... This is awesome :) BTW, for any violinists looking for this edition, it's the Hubert Leonard arrangement.
Shall I say "PERFECT". His musicality was exceptional and that shows at all time in this record. At no time he gets into virtuosity and show offs! That's him. One of the greatest!
I’ve never actually had the occasion to work with Huguette Dreyfus, but have regularly performed a wide variety of repertoire with former students of hers. I so often find that they share this same open-mindedness, whether I ask them to adopt some unusual pitch and temperament or to play with modern instruments. Outstanding performers, teachers & researchers have brought about an extraordinary evolution in modern performance practice, but great musicianship can take many different forms.
Je suis ébloui par ce couple Szeryng / Dreyfus. Ils sont lumineux dans cette Folie ou dans les sonates d'Haendel disponibles sur RU-vid. Je regrette de ne pas trouver même en payant les 3 autres sonates (12, 13, 14) car ce qu'ils font est de la magie pure dans la légèreté, la finesse et la tonalité. Merci à tous ceux qui m'ont permis de les découvrir.
This, I think, is the most delicious version of this masterpiece. I didn't know Szeryng would have given it a spirit that makes your soul purely comfortable.
If it weren't for the romantic vibrato, I would agree with you. Vibrato comes a generation later in the classical period. He was an astounding violinist
@@patcates9168 Why would we ride in carriages? Also, the vibrato is not what Szeryng would have played for Tchaikovsky. I do understand tuning to 415 though.
one of the most beautiful things I have ever heard. this is PLEASURE! this violinist is superb. Im playing this piece now and wanting to be as elegant as this beautiful artist xo
3) I am perfectly aware of the discrepancy of style, but : a) I also see how this performance sits fascinatingly at a crossroads of 20th century attitudes (and would expect any of my first-year students to do so) b) the present-day penchant for „historically informed” performance (to which I thoroughly adhere) is no doubt as ephemeral as all other stylistic trends c) stylistic anachronism should not render us deaf to the inherent musicality of Mr Szeryng’s playing.
Very interesting: i've spend 10 years till now learning historical perfomance. My love for the ancient way of understanding music is such i didnt wanted to play post-1800 music in a long time only to get in to the mood, and i didnt found sad to do it. That's the reason because this Szerying playing surprise me: If you forget that Szerying formation as a vioinist was fully ROMANTIC, you can imagine this interpretation as one by a Romanian Gypsy from the time of Corelli playing the Follia in his own folk style. Obviously we dont know how gypsys playd' violin in 1700, but imagine is free.
This is amazing ! I was a young student at that colloquium and am now a professional early musician. That zurich.geige is able to appreciate Szeryng’s Corelli on its own terms is no surprise. I remember a scholar & performer committed to historical practice (there was a vivid illustration of different pitches & temperaments in baroque music) yet able to present different viewpoints with scholarly impartiality. Musicianship of Szeryng’s calibre is simply wonderful.
Trina Clark , Indeed I agree. Funny lucky times we live in that you can find touching music online.... When I was kid, I had to pay for “test-play” of CDs at specialty store. And I had not many infos about musics 🎶 in the world (except pop music) so I didn’t know a lot which ones to test-play.
1981, I believe. Huguette Dreyfus was always keen to see the harpsichord as both a period instrument and a modern one, championing 20th century repertoire as well as baroque. It is wholly in character that she should have recorded the Corelli with Szeryng and also with baroque violinist Eduard Melkus. She saw the place of each (and also Landowska’s Pleyel harpsichords !) fitting in the much wider picture of performance history.
Just to add: this is a romantic adaption of corelli's la follia by hubert léonard. this is the reason why the harpsichord accompanimet sounds "romantic" and why the interpreter uses that much of "vibrato", what would be totally unusual for baroque music.
It it's a South spanish (castillian) theme from the 15th century , so not that off, only difference being Flamenco was a more popular and more arab influenced music rather But you can hear the andalusian influence in both genres, that's probably what you're picking up
Quite right. Huguette Dreyfus has taught many of today’s harpsichordists, and yet doesn’t hesitate to glance back over her shoulder to the great Wanda Landowska. The results of this collaboration with Szeryng are all the more curious for dating from as late as the 1980s. Both are wonderful musicians, whatever else we may think. Dziady1 is indeed a hopeless case. That he should see in my simple remarks some sort of scholarship speaks volumes for his musical education (if he has one at all).
Henryk szeryng foi um génio do violino ficara para história como um talento tendo alcançado tudo que o violino nos possa dar! seu guarnerios absolutamente infalível tal como ele foi para ele !szeryng nos deu uma lição de um som que permanecerá para sempre!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You remember that ? I do too, but for a slightly different reason : I was the lecturer ! (Novantique was a group of young professionals brought together especially for that lecture). Of course, performing practice has moved a long way since then, but it was fascinating to research some of the pioneering work in the early to mid 20th century - and great fun to rehear Bach on those early attempts at rebuilding early instruments.
If I mentioned the lecture-concert it is because I had a sneaky feeling... (I’ve read a number of your comments here & elsewhere, and it all fitted together just too neatly ! ). Great to hear that you continue to combine the most recent performance research with a respect for more traditional performances. The meeting of those two currents in the Szeryng/Dreyfus/Corelli recording is perhaps a bit of a marginal case, but no less interesting (or musical) for that.
About 15-20 years ago, some of my students took part in a colloquium in Vienna, one of the high-spots of which was an extraordinary lecture-concert on performance practice in the 20th century, given by a brilliant scholar and illustrated by a group called Novantique, passing from early instruments to modern, pythagorian tuning to equal temperament. I especially remember baroque & modern violins playing Bach, accompanied by piano & various harpsichords (including an iron-framed Goff ! ).
contd. The arrangement dates from long before the modern „early music” revival, and it is extraordinary to find this recording, over a century later, by a great romantic violinist with harpsichord (Dreyfus more or less sticks to Léonard’s „piano” part!) A comparison with the late 1880s edition (also for violin & piano) by the baroque pioneer Arnold Dolmetsch makes the journey towards 20th century „historically informed” interpretations all the more fascinating.
Non solo il violino, ma la realizzazione del basso al clavicembalo è anche romantico. Sopratutto dopo 4'09 l'armonia è di tardo romanticismo. Ma se usa pochissimo anche risulta che fosse una novità al ascolto...
+Mateus Belloni culture...quite different, Genius is individual, culture is a epic buildingroman...american, study...for many years, study,..study,,,study smthing...at least...once for all...Thanks, humbly giving u my regards...study,....it s too late maybe toio late (listen to Noam Chomsky, for instance not the sauvave false culture of your replublicans...poor woìild people jsut in blazer and billions of your dollares...and ...study...)to save your, or one or your possible cultures... It s late, hurry up, it so late, a century ago u had to stard to the extreme effort. Study...distinuished regards again
Quite right. Editions based closely on the original (Rome c.1700) for violin & figured bass, continued to appear until the late 18th century. Léonard’s arrangement reflects a radical change of approach in the 19th century. Dolmetsch tries to give a practical edition, adding indications deemed „necessary” for interpretation as well as a continuo realisation suitable for piano. The Joachim/Chrysander is a scholarly text from which few 19th century musicians would actually be able to play.
Happy memories ! Pity the Szeryng/Corelli comments got bogged down with dziady’s habitual insults in place of discussion. What we hear goes far beyond dziady’s „dumb fiddler” routine. This is, of course, the 19th century arrangement (for violin & piano) by Hubert Léonard, a wonderful glimpse of how baroque music was seen 150 years ago, with its chromatic embellishments and cadenza... The score even proposes a „more effective” ending, which Szeryng & Dreyfus choose not to include ! contd.
Mozart was not aiming to improve, but to bring Handel into line with the tastes of his day. We are all conditioned by prevalent views of „old music”. I too prefer Handel’s original scores, but I was not brought up in late 18th century Austria. A century ago, Saint-Saëns declared that medieval polyphony was „cacophony” and that Renaissance sacred music was „inexpressive”. Shortly afterwards, Jochum recorded Perotin’s „Sederunt principes” with symphony orchestra & chorus !
More recent decades have favoured „historically informed” performances of early music. This does not mean we have found some sort of „Universal Truth”. There is no knowing what attitudes will be like at the turn of the 22nd century. I am happy with the present state of early music interpretation - it is my profession - but Szeryng’s Corelli is a very eloquent reminder of an approach that once was, but is no longer, in fashion.
Absolutely. It is sad to note that in his frenetic efforts to denigrate anyone who contradicts him, dziady1 completely misses the potential significance of his own remark. By Berlioz’s time, musicians expected to have very clear indications on their scores (tempo, phrasing, dynamics etc). The composer could indeed ask his musicians to play „as written”. Léonard, only 15 younger than Berlioz, would have been brought up in this tradition. contd
DZIADY1 We recently exchanged a few thoughts on great violinists of the past. Szeryng is of the same generation as Neveu, but was not in your preferred list. Leaving aside Nick.Osia’s irony, a few questions come to mind : whose interpretation of the Corelli would you recommend ? what is the interest of the Durand edition ? would not Dreyfus have played directly from the original, if the aim were to be stylistically accurate ? can (or should) this music really be played “as written” ?
Szeryng became a Mexican citizen because as General Sikorski's adjutant, he was impressed with Mexico's attitude about taking in Polish soldiers during WWII. His parents were in Poland, were Polish Jews, and most likely were murdered by the Nazis.
Dziady1 : 1) I hardly think Huguette Dreyfus would consider the Durand edition to be a model of scholarly Urtext ! 2) What Berlioz said in 19th France century is totally irrelevant in the context of 17/18th century Italy. 3) You might just as well quote Mahler who equally famously said that conductors „have the responsibility to change my music”. 4) If you wish to compare art forms, try visiting any medieval cathedral, and find one that has had no later additions.
So when Bach wrote his concerto for 4 harpsichords (an arrangement of a Vivaldi concerto for 4 violins), he was, in your terms, „tampering”, and you suggest that we know better... It is an amusing irony of present-day respect for historical accuracy that we have become „plus royaliste que le roi”. Attitudes towards performance change as much as compositional style, but classical is not „better” than baroque, nor baroque „better” than Renaissance. Today’s best may well be tomorrow’s „dummies”.
Looking at the dates of those editions makes the “old” Joachim/Chrysander (almost exactly contemporary with the Dolmetsch) seem all the more remarkable. It also makes dziady1’s simplistic view of musical history seem all the more grotesque.
contd. For most players of Léonard’s generation, 18th century editions would be largely unusable - precisely because you CAN’T play them „as written” : figured bass, few dynamics or phrase markings... So he prepared a score as Berlioz would have expected, with a fully written-out accompaniment (for piano), and extensive expression indications - all to be played „as written”. In the event he went much further, making it (to use dziady1’s term) „his own”.
1) No interpretation involved. It is your own words which „fly in the face of reason” : - „Bach took the work and made it his own” - „That Mozart should have tampered with Handel is equally deplorable he did not improve anything” I invite you to demonstrate why they were not both „tampering” (and therefore equally deplorable (or else both „making these works their own” (and therefore both geniuses) [again your words].
Apart from construction time, it is common enough to find „modern” gothic (and later) additions to long-completed romanesque churches. I have not discussed the point with Huguette Dreyfus, but can reasonably assume that if she disapproved, she would not have made the recording. Ornamentation plays a vital role in baroque interpretation. That it should take such a 20th century allure is not to my liking, but shows no more lack of musical integrity than Mozart’s „updates” of works by Handel.
Dziady1, I can understand you wanting to slink off after receiving such a thrashing - it is a natural reaction of the weak when humiliated. Zurich.geige has answered the Berlioz question for you ; why it is irrelevant to 18th century performance practice, but how it relates to this 19th century arrangement. From the moment I made a remark about “scores”, you saw your opportunity to wriggle out of the musical discussion and concentrate on aiming your primitive insults at me.
Rachmaninov wrote a set of variations for piano on this theme , that's what brought me here: I wanted to hear the original, but apparently this isn't the original either, just a set of variations by somebody else. Anybody know where I can find the original? Thanks.
1) It is far too easy to declare that unreasoned opinion is „fact”. „Out of [baroque] style” is fact. „Stupid, „ignorant” & „ridiculous” are personal attacks founded on nothing more than rancorous bigotry. 2) Tiresomely repeating the worn-out „resonance” quip is as unconvincing as it is inappropriate. 3) My opinion of Szeryng’s Corelli is clear: no apologies nor use of the word „inept”. I can discuss stylistic pertinence as fact, but my personal opinion is of no interest to anyone but myself.
well its ok to play with music. he added variations and cadence that were not written at the original and didnt even exist in baroque... so what? its ok as long as this is not a baroque festival or something. i dont think corelli would be offended or anything. its music. it shouldnt be that static.
@leesm0821 If you have a few minutes to spare, read back through the discussion, starting with dziady1 calling Henryk Szeryng a „non thinking fiddle player” about 3 weeks ago. It’s not easy to follow, with a lot of multiple postings, but see what you think !
4) The accusation that Mr Szeryng „drags music down to his level of show biz” would appear marginally less absurd if „the great musicologist” whom you quote were not herself a „show-biz” comedienne. Nothing disparaging in applying this term to Anna Russell, of course. Show-biz entertainer was her chosen métier, with no pretence at being a „great musicologist”.
5) The choice of edition does not determine what a player may add in performance. 6) What is surprising, however, is the collaboration of a period instrumentalist with an unashamedly romantic violinist (albeit one who is light years from your disrespectful „non thinking fiddle player” epithet). The added frills are far cry from Italian baroque style - but that is not the point you make. You appear to contest any departure from the score, in which you are simply wrong !
