The railway between Liverpool and Manchester was the first between two cities. It’s not Victorian, it’s pre-Victorian, and it’s about time it’s brought into the 21st century.
Unfortunately the north of England does NOT have the political clout of London. PERIOD. While HS2 will eventually lead to HSR linking London to Manchester and/or Leeds, there won't be any HSR linking Liverpool with Leeds through Manchester... They don't have the political clout to force the south of England to agree. PERIOD.
Definitely needed. I've taken trains from Sheffield to Manchester city centre that are so old that they have bus interiors inside! The North's rail infrastructure has been neglected for far too long. As someone who commutes on the trains, they needed sorting out years ago. I hope they get this approved and use the old trains from Northern cities for town/village links that have trains nearing 30-40 years old.
@@seancirillo6605 Nonsense. Outside Amtrak's northeast corridor the former Pennsylvania Railroad built more than 170 years ago, yes before 1850, the rest of the US mainline railroads are owned by private railroad companies, not the federal government. The freight companies are very happy with tracks that go no faster than 79 MPH, and are satisfied with even lesser speeds. They have no intentions of spending any more maintaining the tracks than they do presently. As for the northeast corridor, the former Baltimore & Ohio Railroad built a mainline corridor as well a few miles from the former Pennsylvania Railroad corridor. CSX owns that right of way presently. There is no other available corridor along this northeast corridor route unless you destroy and demolish factories, commercial buildings, and homes. There is literally no land available presently to build another High Speed Rail corridor... It is a fully built up area as is. Unlike Europe, even this dense area of the USA does NOT have the political clout to get their way politically. New York City does NOT have the same political clout as London or Paris or Madrid in their countries...
from Fraser, husband of Leslie The basic problem is that the station selected for Manchester is the wrong one ! It is difficult, even impossible for the proposed new station by Piccadilly to be a through station. The line should go to a station built on the old Manchester Exchange station. This could then be a through station and allow trains to proceed via Rochdale to a new tunnel across to Marsden where there is a 4-track formation all the way to Huddersfield. There is a lot of disused formation east of the Pennines, some existing lines once having four tracks so slotting in an HS line shouldn't be too difficult.
I wish it was started now, the North badly needs it. Building HS3 from West to East, at the same time HS2 is built South to North. Do all the works at connecting station (HS2/HS3) at the same time, instead of completing HS2, then starting HS3 and messing about with the interchanges, etc then. The Northern economy needs it, the people need it. After all the money over the years has been pumped into the South East for Crossrail, new vehicle tunnels under the Thames, new Tunnel at Stonehenge, etc. We feel like we always get the crumbs of what is left and years later, if at all.
I think with the covid recovery, the government should splurge a bit on that just like the Great Works program back in post WWI US which built many of the infrastructure of the WWII.
Funny that you mention two things that are not only not even started being built, but likely won't happen at all. The tunnel under the Thames - which is a lot about freight from Kent ports to the North (sure, SE things too) - has just been shelved for a review. And Stonehenge (which is in, and all about, the SW - nothing to do with the SE) has merely moved to the 'the lawsuits begin' phase of the project - approval by the Government against advice doesn't mean it will happen any time soon (or at all). And it's not as if stuff isn't happening at the same time in the North - for instance, the A66 expressway across the Pennine (there's other stuff, but this corresponds to Stonehenge - both announced in the last month and costing about the same). Of course, the reason you know about the Tunnels in the South is because they are near the media and deeply controversial schemes, whereas the A66 expressway is fairly under the radar - it's mostly uncontroversial and it isn't near the media (even those based in Salford). Now, sure, the North doesn't get anywhere near enough infrastructure spending - but nowhere (not even London) does. Everyone outside London (including the SE - which, outside the London fringe, gets probably the least of anyone. Both neglected due to being London, but not given stuff to 'redress the balance' as London-focussed schemes get counted as schemes in their area despite being a long way away) thinks they are getting crumbs - because that's what everyone (even London, albeit a larger portion of crumbs) is getting. We know we aren't getting what we should as we know the needs in our area and how little is being done to fix it. We don't, however, know the needs of elsewhere so well, but do often hear of the spending to fix them. It's a lot of hard work to not think the grass isn't greener elsewhere when you see how brown the grass near you is, but it's brown almost everywhere.
For route to Ireland, build from Liverpool, North Wales, end point to Dublin via Irish Sea Tunnel. And of south route from London or Birmingham and also build the tunnel in the Irish Sea to Wexford and Cork, because Dublin, Wexford, and Cork is end of route the HS3 railway building from Britain and Ireland is called HS3 phase 4b. Irish Rail (Ireland) and Network Rail (UK) are friendly of railway network from the Common Travel Area Railway Network
Another project that can’t come soon enough! Thing is, hs2 route + stations were developed independently so it’s like trying to bolt NPR onto it rather than acting seamlessly together. For example, from Liverpool to Manchester, the line takes a roundabout route south east before heading north east only to then enter Piccadilly heading north west! From Piccadilly, hs2 want an overground station, TFN want an underground one (probably more sensible) so trains can run through without having to reverse. Financially though, underground or overground station there’s gonna have to be 2 immensely long tunnels. Rochdale-Bradford & Bradford-Leeds. The topography in that part of the world is too undulating to support anything above ground. So basically, George Osborne was wayyy off. It’ll be the most expensive per mile, probably surpassing hs2. Which is why, sadly, I’m not sure at least the eastern section will ever happen.
Great video and a good explanation of the benefits of NPR. Being from the North of England, the towns and cities and their transport requirements have been forgotten by many previous governments. This could be the start of something pretty big for all of them. Subscribed.
The North needs HS3 more than HS2 to be perfectly honest, given how many times the ECML and WCML have been upgraded truth be told travel times to the south are more than adequate to be honest
The real benefit is to turn the North into one economy. Look at the Journey times (5:41) we already have a lot of commuting between the regional cities, but effectively combining the workers in Leeds with Jobs in Manchester / Sheffield and at a stretch Newcastle and Liverpool (and vica versa)will give the Northern Cities a gravitational pull to compete with London
I'm a big fan of hs2. We need faster rail times. The northern power house will be nearly all the icing on the cake. It then needs a line or straighter lines to scotland. I'm from the Midlands.
Brighton to Bristol would be an interesting one. I think a potential high speed link could be seen as London - Bristol (with spur to Cardiff) - Birmingham . This would create a diversionary route for HS2 and connect major cities in the south west with London and Birmingham
London - Toton seems a more useful HS4 than a second Birmingham-South East line (and it would have to go all the way to Birmingham due to the issue of no space on HS2 for non-London trains) - it provides the capacity boost between London and the Midlands, shortens the journey for eastern destinations, etc. And it doesn't preclude HS2 trains turning off at about Denham to go on a round London line to the airports and coastal destinations.
@@iman2341 I can agree with that, similar to First Group's early 2000s plans for a 200mph (I think) GWML & SWML. Upgrading the GWML to 140mph with ETCS would see a massive benefit. And a upgraded Cross country route to 125mph would be a very sensible idea
where do you live? Liverpool to Manchester to Leeds to York to Newcastle to Edinburgh. More direct high speed trains to major cities, with links to airports and other cities off this major new route....
Ask Fishy Sturgeon, apparently she want the Scottish Railways under her control, she wants independence then let the SNP cough up for HS2 across the Border.
@@scottcoe-stamfordpoetlaure2423 Who's going to pay for it, the Irish government, The Northern Ireland Government, Dought it, plus you have problem with two different track gauges, standard gauge of four foot eight and half inches in the UK and the Irish Broad Gauge of five foot six inches in both North and South Ireland, so how do we get around it, build another batch of expensive high speed trains just to go to Ireland with adjustable Bogies that have to have special machinery that adjust these bogies to the respective track gauge or do we make Ireland change it's rail track gauge to the standard Gauge like Spain had to, I dought it, if people are moaning about the cost of HS2, this project would more than likely cost 4 times the amount of HS2 and HS3 combined.
The real problem with trying to add additional Transpennine routes is that most go along narrow valleys with a lot of established infrastructure, with some experts commenting that it would be easier to tunnel between all the stops than to try fit more into what little space there is. HS3 should be an Intercity line only and not as every town along the proposed routes wants, and that is for it to stop at there town, so the Transpennine HS3 line should come out of Manchester at Picadilly (where HS2 western leg will arrive) and then using mainly unused track bed head east and along the now closed Woodhead Pass route and through new tunnels and then ontowards the M1 north of Sheffield making a direct Y connection to the eastern leg of HS2, speeds on this section will be at full HS line speed, thus making fast connections despite taking a longer route. This dedicated HS3 line actually adds redundancy to the two HS2 legs and allows normal running to carry on even if one is closed for maintenance or bad weather. Taking the direct intercity traffic off the existing Transpennine routes allows more stopping trains on the existing routes, thus increasing capacity where needed, also by opening some closed lines i.e. Colne to Skipton extra Transpennine routes can me made for passenger and freight. The cost of a reopened and re-tunneled Woodhead route would be lower than all the tunneling work that would have to be done to increase capacity and build new lines alongside current Transpennine routes, and it could be built now before the HS2 legs arrive.
I'm a southerner that has been living in the north west for over 10 years and I can say that this part of the world needs an economic boost to the rail infrastructure. I used to commute on the original GWR's to London and when I moved here, it was like I was living in 2 world's. But I can say that the quality of the trains here are better than the services down south now. First Transpennine Express use similar units to LNER and GWR. Northern has run new class 395 since the crappy Pacers have been taken off. Right trains out of the way. Infrastructure isn't brilliant. I don't think that any HS plan is required here. Each side of the Pennines mountain range, each area has access to electrification but through the Pennines this is not available and there are only 3 routes across, Blackburn/Manchester to Bradford; Manchester to Leeds via Huddersfield and Stockport to Sheffield. Each HS plan has a drawback of being overly expensive. A plan was drawn up that at each station classed for stopping services (depending on the space available) would have a side line for slower trains to stop thus allowing faster trains to overtake. This is the main issue. If this can be completed, any HS plans would not even be raised, thus millions of Pounds saved.
This railway is needed but choosing the route will be very difficult, especially around towns like Warrington where every bit of spare land seems to have been built on in the last 30 - 35 years. They are more concerned in Warrington about converting old rail lines into cycle ways - hence we have the Trans-Pennine Trail to the east of town.
i don't think anyone could get from bristol to brussels / paris in just 3 1/2 hours - you already have to be at st pancras 90 to 120 minutes early for boarding
The GWML was built in the 1800s and is almost 125mph all the way through, what the North needs is it railways configured to that all the way along, not a high speed train line.
Would a cheaper option be to build new lines for freight and slow trains thus freeing up existing lines for current fast trains. This would involve minor modifications to existing lines, including electrifying lines, which would slightly cut journey times. As you point out trans pennine routes involve a lot of station stops and there isn't the need for trains to travel at 140mph, even if there was enough distance between stations to get up to that speed. An example of trains on this route. Sheffield to Doncaster can take 24 minutes with 1 stop up to 38 minutes stopping at every station
Whenever a new motorway is built, you should force them to construct an adjacent walking/cycling/horseriding trail and an overhead skytrain or busway. Retro fit these on every motorway on the country. Then start tearing up the roads.
Great content. You can learn far more about developments and soak up knowledge that's far more valuable by watching videos like this compared to watching the often too simplistic news channels that are often politically tinged.
Isn't the joke that this has been green lit every year for at least 6 yrs? It'll be closer to 2100 when we seen a true high speed rail network in the North. I'm in Sheffield, and we don't even have electric lines on our lines, BUT we did on the victoria which closed in the 70's, so we're still using diesel stock. HS2 is still uncertain of its route through Sheffield, other than its going through it. They seem to favour the route already in question, but the old Victoria line is still a good option (its not used any more, the foundations are still there, and the Woodhead tunnels are still there to connect to Manchester) Connections do need to be improved though, yes the old Pacers are gone, but they should have gone in the 90's. Cars still rule in terms of connections, but ones connecting Sheffield to Manchester, the Woodhead Pass and Snake Pass, are very easy to close, either due to weather or collisions. The recent Whaley Bridge dam incident, also caused the Hope Valley line to close. The lines connecting Sheffield to Leeds are mostly stopper trains, with a few main stoppers, giving a slow travel time We do have a trial of the Tram-Train, but the reality is, is that its been unreliable due to the mechanics of the situation. Even the first day was ruined when a lorry jumped a red light and derailed the tram. Its also been expensive to use, about £5 each way when a bus is cheaper, as well as useless, connecting two major shopping centres, Meadowhall and Parkgate, both both feature massive car parks. The only real advantage is connecting Rotherham town centre, but again, a bus is cheaper
I do think that High Speed 3 could happen. When High Speed 2 is completed in stages. And yes CAF, Stadler, Bombardier, Hitachi or Siemens to build new high speed trains for HS3. And a new HS link from HS1 to HS2 with Eurostar to operate from Manchester Piccadilly and Birmingham Curzon Street to Belgium, Netherlands, France and Germany avoid London. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_1 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_2 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Powerhouse_Rail
Good Idea, But what about the Chat Moss route. because excluded St Helens Junction which can cut the time journey in half than having it going via Warrington.
You don’t go via the airport on that route, which is a key destination. It has been looked at. Main issues surround encroachment on the alignment and disruption during construction.
Chat Moss is very very difficult to get any faster than now - quite how they even built the railway across the marshy Moss 190 years ago beats me. Certainly it has needed rebuilding several times to try and give a solid foundation. Furthermore, a key problem with the Transpennine network currently is that trains branch to Liverpool and Manchester Airport - the more southerly route (as well as allowing track sharing with HS2 into both Liverpool and Manchester) allows both those destinations to be served by the full cross-Pennine frequency.
Since the latest announcement by the government to put in storage all rail projects except the money black hole of HS2. The cash being spent on HS2, according to the Adam Smith Institute would finance around 25 much needed rail projects in england benefiting many not just the few. Sadly no mention of the Tweedbank - Carlisle extension that would give extra capacity, nor the Bangor to Carmarthen route via Aberystwyth allowing for the north south Welsh journey to be undertook completely in Wales and its shovel ready in most places; can't have them thinking they are a people / country in their own right can we man from the south. As for northern powerhouse or rather workhouse there is a second east west route shovel ready that is the Woodhead Route, re allocation of the tunnels would allow the route to reopen cheaply. The reopening of the great Central was brushed aside to quickly in view of spending cash, again Adam Smith reckons a return of 70p in the Pound for the project. There is more to be gained, less spent and fairer return in opening closed routes than ego boosting railways, that just benefit the few. The one massive failure of planning for HS2 is that one still has to walk from Euston to St Pancras in the rain for connections to Europe. On this Island 125 to 140mph is more than likely enough speed, its trains and capacity that's needed.
No one should ever be listening to the Adam Smith Institute, they are one of the reasons why we have the mess of railways franchising, they also led to the mess of our bus services in rural areas. No one knows who funds them and what their intrests are, but they appear to want HS2 cancelled and releasing reports full of bullshit ideas for alternatives routes seems to be one of their methods. I mean the simple fact that if you cancel HS2, the borrowed money earmarked for the project will be gone. It cannot be used for other rail projects, to fund the NHS, bulid houses etc. The borrowing is based on that one business case. A route from Holyhead/Bangor down to the south despite how much i'd love it, would never get funding on a similar business case that HS2 has. Unlike HS2 that route would have to come out of tax payers pockets. Please just bin that ASI report, it's full of errors and lies.
@@DaveJNoel Don't shoot the messenger, just think about those customers who will never benefit from public transport, including rail, that won't get the projects that are needed as HS2 has sucked the cash / funding streams out. The Green aspect is also a HS2 problem as lifting the speed from 125 to 200 requires almost a doubling of energy to power the traction motors.
The Woodhead tunnels are no longer available for rail use they are carrying the main trans-pennine national grid cables. If you are going to reuse those tunnels for rail that infrastructure has to be replaced first and will cost a huge amount that the Adam Smith Institute almost certainly hasn’t budgeted for.
@@davidwright7193I doubt that both tunnel are jammed full of cables, just a case of moving one set of cables over to free up space, and over bore the existing free tunnel.
Cynical me, I'm not convinced that it will happen, as it doesn't benefit London. This I feel is the only reason why HS2 is going ahead. Even if it does, work will have to be done to increase the capacity of the conventional rail network that would compliment it. Manchester in particular is a huge bottleneck
I'm originally from the South (Northampton it is South lol) and once out of London the railway network is absolutely crap with barely any east-west links, super congested main lines and literally no local lines as beeching got rid of them all. Like really, got rid of them all! Even the great central railway was torn up which is an absolute crime. HS2 isn't going to particularly benefit the southern areas between London and Birmingham. Yes Yes I know about the whole freeing up rail space thing on WCML but it's not going to restore any east-west links or local lines. So anyone thinking rail travel in the south is up to scratch is deluded. Moving on, I now live in Greater Manchester and I am sick to the high heels of northerners whinging about lack of rail services. There are trains and trams galore up here and it's a breeze getting around, between cities, local towns, across the pennines, even to the seaside and the lakes. North generally has it sweet in a whole load of ways tbh not just infrastructure, it's just people up here are educated to moan about the South, still referring to the thatcher era for just about everything considered a problem, it's pathetic 🙄 I constantly argue with people in my salon about this whole North/South divide thing it's nonsense... more like London vs the rest of the UK. Anyway this Manchester and Leeds HS phase is going to be the cherry on top for Northern rail and quite frankly I don't think it needs much more. Perhaps opening woodhead route again for another semi-fast trans-pennine route would be beneficial but an actual dedicated high speed trans-pennine line is just lols in my lifetime 😆 Just a railway loving Manchester drag queen putting my two pennies worth in, don't be offended or triggered too much please 💋 xx
I believe much of HS3 is being 'sold' as a bigger project than it actually is. The existing TransPennine route will be upgraded to four tracks (which is in part already happening between Huddersfield & Dewsbury) & a new Morley tunnel (plus more four tracking) will continue the project to Leeds. The line to Bradford / Halifax via New Pudsey will be electrified & the old Bowling Curve to the south of Bfd. reopened as a bidirectional single track to speed up journey times for semi-fast Caldervale trains. Plans for new major tunnel across the Pennines to via Bfd. is fantasy.
well. there is no need to use HS trains in cities that are close together. why would u go (and pay) for a HS train manchester to liverpool?? what this shoud be is looking at GB as a whole. you need to conect cities that are long separate: london manchester glasgow. this shoud be a spine!! and then the side ramifications
As someone who lives near the east coast near Berwick-Upon-Tweed, I would love that, but unfortunately I don't think it is likely because the government is too London-centric. If the government is not willing to give funding to NPR/HS3, there's almost no chance they'd give it to a link between Edinburgh and Newcastle.
That would be seriously fast for regional trains - akin to HS1. If they were to go even faster, then the costs would be a lot higher. There's nor rail lines in the world with faster regional trains that that Only Spain in fact has regional trains at such speeds. Anything faster is high speed intercity services - and even then, contrary to popular belief, there are few countries with high speed rail with developed regional and local and metro networks.
HS2 will gobble up all the money before it gets to Brum, let one further north. NPR should be filed under fiction as it could be 30 years away. Note that the upgrade of the Manchester Leeds line was promised by Osborne in 2011. And what has happened?
Any improvement to rail services or new railway is far more beneficial to the masses than wasting it on road building. Rail is far better for the environment and people's wellbeing. Roads are quite the opposite, not good for the environment and dam right dangerous, electric cars will only add to that danger.
So where do Scotland and Wales come in here??????? How come this is costing BILLIONS of pounds to the BRITISH taxpayer when it's only going to serve ENGLAND? Jeez, no wonder the SNP and Independance votes are sweeping the polls up here in Scotland ............
The North all needs connecting and modernising and made a bit faster. but liverpool to leeds link with all the stations in between and terrain, wont really allow high speed to take place. The tunnel network for Cross rail is an amazing fete of engineering, Why no tunnel right acrossand through The Pennines, they could and it would be faster. A new national monument to British engineering. Nope just an upgrade, nothing clever like in Rome (London) Surely HS3 should be either side of the countrys spine? high speed tracks ..London-Birmingham to Sheffield Leeds upto Newcastle and the left tracks London Birmingham to manchester to Glasgow...New stations for high speed rail not more trains in old modernized stations. Due to be completed 2028 apparently and the cheapest phase of Englands High speed rail network installation ....The project is tired and corrupt. The North need to make sure no cuts are made on the project. London got its Prize first Cross-Rail and Up North has to wait..again....
I think it would be smarter for one big long tunnel through the pennines because then they wouldn't have to transport and rearrange the boring machines, if you wanted to get from Newcastle to Leeds in an hour the average speed would need to be around 300km/h, maybe a line speed of 360km/h. The transpennine route would need to be built to HS2 standards, not only for this route, but also between Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, York and Hull and if the eastern leg of HS2 is never reinstated, it could act to link the end of Phase 2B at Manchester to Leeds.
At £6bn, NPR is good value, in contrast to HS2 which is grossly overpriced and ill conceived. The lack of prioritisation in not, from day 1, connecting with HS1, is absurd, and the argument about the need to increase capacity as justification seems dubious. If it's case of passenger trains needing greater capacity, has anyone heard of double-decker trains? Okay, a lot of money needed to raise bridges, but nothing compared to what's already been spent on HS2! If by extra capacity we mean freight, what about the third route to Scotland, viz. St. Pancras-Sheffield-Leeds-Carlisle, via the famous Settle-Carlisle railway (built as a mainline by the LMS, for Anglo-Scottish running)? I'd also argue that popularity of train travel by the travelling public has changed for the better over the last three decades but might easily decline when high tech options such as autonomous vehicles become commonplace. Also, there is less need to commute long distances; thanks to high speed internet services, many office workers don't need to travel; they can can work from home. HS2 is London orientated; London commuters stand to benefit the most, but they are bound to be a very small percentage of the populations of the towns it's projected to serve. From a common sense perspective, improving local services, used intensively by commuters, should take precedence, and there are lines closed due to Beeching which if reinstated, would provide much greater benefit, e.g. Colne to Skipton via Barnoldswick and Earby; York to Pickering; Penrith to Keswick; Barnstaple to Bideford; Oakhampton to Gunnislake (prroviding an alternative route to Plymouth from Exeter) to name just a few!
What about the projects they started are the going to end ever. Cross Rail is yet to finish, they started HS2 that too they are really unsure and going like Stop Start mode. They have already best rail network in the world and worst service.
Will never happen, just all talk to get people in the north to vote for the tories, been waiting for a short section of double track to be put back in at Dore station for the last 10 years to speed up journey times between Sheffield and Manchester.
Being born in Northumberland l can safely say that anything south of Middlesbrough is NOT in the NORTH! So it goes without any dispute the rest are SOUTHERNERS!
