As someone who actually knew Hal, his depiction was rather accurate. I knew him as an old man and watched his decline following his wife's passing. He never cared about himself, his focus was always the well being of those around him. The man was a legend and I'll take out anyone who says otherwise.
I've talked to dozens of Vietnam veterans for a documentary. They all say that soldiers almost always call for their wife or mother before their death. It's not cliche, it's an absolute truism. They also all, to a man, name this movie as the best and most accurate Vietnam War movie that has been made.
You do a great job of assessing historical accuracy and how well a film captures the"feel" of a conflict. That is why I subscribe. But you have revealed, in this review, your Achilles heel. You have zero empathy, and little understanding with which to temper that lack of empathy, of why men fight and how they react when faced with their own death. Soldiers are not mercenaries. We need to truly BELIEVE that our deaths mean something. We fight for each other, yes, in the moment. But we GO to war for those kids, and it needs to be addressed, however clumsily, in the movie. When a spouse or sibling is informed of the untimely death of a loved one, they often react with the exact same inarticulate denial as the wife in the movie. I've been unlucky enough to be present on six such occasions, and I am here to tell you, that reaction is VERY true-to-life. You need to learn that often things are cliche because they are universal. Climb down out of your ivory tower once in a while, and experience life. Experience history being made, and you will understand why these three kinds of scenes MUST be in a movie. Then, feel free to critique how well or poorly they are done, but never again say they don't belong. They absolutely do.
Yeah, saw a soldier on my first tour whom was shot 7 times. He could barely speak and all he kept asking for was for his wife. Cliche but it really happens.
Sure, but that’s not his point. People really fart too, but that’s no reason to show everyone farting all of the time. His point was that, as a movie scene, it has been done a thousand times. It may have had a dramatic effect at one time, but we’ve all seen it so many times now, it no longer carries any dramatic weight. It’s kind of like the slow motion scene of someone hollering, “Nooooooo!”, just when his buddy is being shot or blown up. People probably actually do that in war, but it’s been so overdone, that I wouldn’t include it in any war film I was shooting. That scene lost its dramatic effect many years ago and so does the, “tell my wife I love her” cliche. Just leave it out or maybe do something different, like “tell my wife I forgot to take out the trash”. At least you’ll get a laugh.
According to eye witnesses the two “cliche” death scenes are what was reported to have been said by the dying soldiers. That part is actually historically accurate perhaps to a fault.
My young (and VERY stupid) nephew was complaining loudly about how "unrealistic" the death scenes in old western movies are. I asked him "How many people have you seen die, let alone die from gunshots?" When he couldn't answer I had to follow up with "Then you wouldn't really know whether it's realistic, or not. Would you?" Remember that he's exceptionally dumb, so I couldn't just leave that last question unasked. I then decided to rub it in further, by showing him data that revealed that most people who are shot will die from blood loss caused by the bullet, not from the shock of being shot, as the movies would have us believe. At the end of all of that, I finally got him to admit that maybe the "unrealistic" old westerns were actually more realistic than the modern movies, when it comes to deaths by gunshot.
I agree with you there like she's lived under a rock for so damn long she's never heard of racism she hasn't heard of you know the South having a white drinking fountains only yet she acts like she hasn't even heard of the civil Rights movement I agree with you this is what pisses me off throwing this racial bulshit in there for absolutely no damn reason
My father, died about 7 years ago, was a Vietnam veteran, hated this movie. He was able to watch all other Vietnam movies because it was too far off of reality. We were soldiers was too real for him.
Respect and regards for your father. I understand to a certain point, my own dad worked for private and public companies for France during 70's and 80's in Africa, and saw quite a chunk of dark things there. He quited his job because he couldn't endure it anymore. All our childhood and teenage years, my siblings and I were forbiden to watch movies like that, or talk about war and death, because it made him angry all the time. He was "rethinking" about what he witnessed back there.
i can see what you identify as cliches throughout this movie, however the dying words of the american soldiers such as "i'm proud to die for my country" and "tell my wife i love her" are historically accurate. These words were actually uttered by these men as they died. Read Lt.General Harold G Moore's published and well known account of the battle. That these men would say such things is historically unsurprising for the time. Remember this is 1965 and these were idealistic WASP young men. This is early Vietnam war. Subsequent conscripts may well have not been so endoctrinated or "all American". These young men of '65 were however an elite and by and large the sons of military families, so their dying utterances are perfectly natural given the time and their backgrounds. It was Lt.Herrick who stated "i'm proud to die for my country" and this young man meant it. Its only subsequent films and a changing historical perspective that make such statements seem cliched. The changing interpretation and character of this war needs to be considered quite closely to gain an understanding of its historical message.
Or at least that is what Harold G Moore said were their last words... They may very well have said it, and all power to them if that is the case... But it is still pretty cheesy, and it is not helped by the way the way it is shot. If you like that stuff, or believe that it is important then fine, personally I almost always skip that part, because I feel that it degrades an otherwise really good film, to some sort of propaganda...
I was an American Infantryman who fought two tours in Iraq - my first during the surge to retake mosul in 07-08... I watched a friend of mine slowly die after being ripped apart by a roadside bomb, and due to how hard the enemy was hitting us, we were unable to get air extract and all reinforcements from the Fob were having trouble getting to us. Him and I were pals as we were the young guys - both naive, patriotic 19 year olds, believing wholeheartedly we were fighting the good fight. I knelt by him, trying to distract him from what we all knew was immenent but refused to admit. As my buddy laid dying, shaking from the blood loss, with the medics trying feverishly to keep him conscious... He opened his eyes, seemingly staring off into the heavens, and said "I'm proud that I died fighting for America." Despite our best efforts to lie to him and tell him he was going to be ok, and despite the Docs trying their best to defy death, he soon passed from this world unto the next... I know from an outside perspective it may seem cliche to make a declaration of loyalty to the country that ultimately cost you your life, but it's not uncommon for a soldier to take solace in his death, believing he died for something greater.
I respect you not only as a fellow veteran but also as someone who understands. Me and pal of mine had been stuck together since boot and he got shot in the neck because he lost his cool and tried to run during our first firefight, so I had to watch him die because we couldn’t get to him because we were under heavy fire.
@@thetute59 Yeah, he's sentimental about buddy, not about guys he killed. Plus, I disagree with the term "patriotic war". Everybody knows bullshit excuses for Vietnam, Afghan & Iraq. Right now we are hearing bullshit excuses for Venezuela and Iran.
@@thetute59 I don't care about soldier's last words. They die for nothing. I have no respect for anybody, who participated in aggression on foreign country. I agree with Minty, who found some scenes as pathetic and unneeded.
“Tell my wife I love her” and calling for their mother are the most common last words for soldiers in Vietnam I believe, so it actually has a point in the movie and not really something to complain about tbh.
The death scenes that upset you so bad were real according to the book lt. Herrick said "At least I got to die for my country." and the sgt who died right after him said "tell my wife": Sorry there last words were to cheesy and "patriotic" for you
It's amazing he didn't bother to actually read the book, seeing as its the single most comprehensive piece of history on the battle having been written by the commanding officer and the only journalist to actually be there who interviewed the survivors, including from the NVA side. Like wtf, it's just disgraceful he'd attempt to critique the historical accuracy of the movie without reading the damn book its based on!
killing people in the name of your country is no more patriotic than killinh people in the name of religion is righteous and to die for your country so it can expand its own influence to people who dont want it is blind faith to a tyranical government and its agenda. patriotic should be fighting for and protecting your country and that is only possible when it is defensive fighting. if you invade you are killing that countries citizens which is no different than someone breaking into your home and killing your family so they can steal your money to feed their own family. quit with the brainwashed patriot act.
Stop being so over-dramatic, guys. He's talking about how the film represents these events. And he's right. The scenes are cliched and detrimental to the immersion. The film often feels authentic but is punctuated by moments of emotional cheesiness that don't work cinematically. The very fact that there is so much debate about it and so much people who feel the need to justify these scenes in the comments is a proof that these scenes are cinematically bad.
Sorry to burst your bubble , but those two death scenes depict the actual last words both of the soldiers said. Another common last words from soldiers is crying out for their mother! Sorry you do not approve of the last words these soldiers chose, but they are historically accurate.
I could see myself saying I was glad to died for my country. Especially when dying, I would like to think I made the right choice. And even though I no longer serve, I still think it's a noble way to go.
Charles Chapman, this information about the Americans dying on their backs and the Japanese dying face down is rather interesting. Where did you read that?
The bits where he criticizes the “cliche” deaths is unwarranted as those were directly in the book and the family scenes are very literally relatable to people from that time. My parents, uncles, aunts, and grandparents all enjoyed those scenes because that’s what things were like for a lot of American families back then.
Yes, but "back then" they were fed a John Wayne impression of the war. So, the "tell Laura....I love hor" is horribly cliched. Apart from the shivering , theyre highly idealised death scenes.
@@Walker-ow7vj Eh,,,,,,,NO, No they didnt. Some might have said something like that 5 minutes before they died, but people generally die unconcious, gibbering or screaming, suffocating or convulsing. You never hear a death rattle in a movie. They only say "TELL......LAURA ....I LAVE HOR " and slip away with perfect timing in very bad movies.
While I respect the research History Buffs did for this, having been around my share of dying and injured people as an EMT, people absolutely think of their loved ones when they feel the end is near.
Oh definitely, it’s not nearly as cliche as people think. The two “cliche” death scenes in the movie are not cliche at all. They were the guys actual last words.
I really like this movie because it's the only Vietnam War film that doesn't have an agenda. There's no stereotypical "Vietnam War was bad, you guys!" storyline thrown about.
Well the reason why the sentiment is actually very verifiable. As in there was a lot of people who agree with the notion that the Vietnam war WAS bad. That doesnt mean we cant appreciate the sacrifice and service of those brave young men. So just to clear this up. YES the Vietnam war was bad, there was absolutely no point to it. It was a waste of life, tax payer money, and an absolute waste of Americas Reputation but we can appreciate the courage and sacrifice of the US Military
@macsikar Mackay dude what these men did was far from greatful. This war was pointless or how they dropped everything on the vietmen. I'm cracking a joke about the whole tell my wife I love her. I feel sorry for you folks do know the difference between a joke and an insult.
@@kaedynbingham6829 why are you blaming the soldiers? I'm blaming high command. Troops follow orders and yea Ik they got drafted. But some wanted to fight and protect the war. You completely missed my point. America has ruined that land for what seems forever. And all vietnam wanted was to be it own nation. Again this war was only to stop commies from developing in Europe. Plus even the troops did unspeakable things which again America has caused.
For a historic review, you missed the chance to document another true hero of the battle, Rick Rescorla, a Lieutenant Platoon Leader, and whose photo adorns the cover of the book by the same name. Hal Moore described him as "the best platoon leader I ever saw". Rick, a Cornishman from England, deserves a film of his own, having led a storied life he died in the Twin Towers during 9/11, where he was credited with saving the lives of of over 2000 Morgan Stanley employees, before re-turning to check everyone was safely out the building, whereupon the building
They did unveil a Statue to Rick Rescorla a while back legend. Had seen action before Vietnam in Africa. He was from Hayle same district I was born and raised in. Brave guy saved many lives on 911.
Rick Rescorla also died on 9/11. I think he was a security guard or something. They said he had a bullhorn and was leading people down the stairs before he died.
I went into the army in 1980 to 83. I am from the south. There was a guy from Wisconsin he told me he never met a black person in his life until he joined the army.
I was in the Army from 1972 to 1975, and I had never had any contact with any black people until I was in the Army. I am native american, and I can tell you that I was not treated well and although it was nowhere near as bad as it had been a generation before me--it still stung. When I was younger, I did not even know that some of the names they called me were supposed to be hurtful. Until I went home and asked what they meant. Thereafter, I chose to ignore them, and chose to be like my dad who fought in WWII and Korea, and he ignored all the denigration. So I joined the Army in 1972....the rest is history and cannot be changed. I regret none of my choices.
My friend who fought in Nam said that at least 25% of the soldiers were totally illiterate. One of his white buddies from West Virginia actually thought that black men had TAILS, until they all took showers together. Welcome to the USA...
People tend to forget that blacks only make up about 13% of the population here, mostly in urban areas. I grew up in a rural area outside of Detroit, yet almost never saw a black person until I started taking jobs closer to the city.
"If you're gonna have to do a death scene, then do it in an original way" You mean stray from the source material? The very thing you crap on movies for? Soldiers die, and I'm their final moments, are certainly not poets, they think of home, their wives, kids and their country, doesnt take an enlisted man to know that.
Nicky will always be pissed at America until we apologize for rejecting his mentally unstable King and Class System, where certain people are born superior to others and deserve ridiculously lavish lives at the expense of their subjects. I would be pissed too, just from the emotional pressure of trying to retain and defend a belief in that system.
Singing Bingo and other songs in the car was how you kept your little crotch goblins busy on road trips. We did this in the 1970s. This is an actually slice of Americana for the period.
@Full Blooded American Mutt - Yep, loved interacting with the truckers. We played Eye Spy and other games. This was more important when the speed limit was 55 mph as trips got painfully long. Thanks President Nixon.
@The TacomaKid Or Mexican nationals(not talking about illegals either, Mexican truckers carrying loads to Oklahoma distribution hubs. Look up NAFTA superhighway)
I used to sing with my kids in the car all the time. I am not sure why you felt it was necessary to criticize this. Wait until you have children of your own. If you do have children then they must really think rides with you are very boring.
9:40. Wow.This happened over 50 years ago. But to him its as clear as yesterday. He still remembers the casualty's name and that his wife was expecting... Sad stuff. Really sad stuff.
My job while in Nam was that of a photographer. When the movies photographer tried to pick up the feet of a badly burned man and the skin came away, I had to get up and leave the theater. All I wanted to do was to get home to safety. It sticks with you, forty, fifty or more years.
I was with B2/7 on The Mang Yang Pass when two A1E Sky Raiders crashed almost on our positions. I was detailed to recover "GI" material and found the body of one pilot. I could not pick him up because he was still very hot and I had not brought gloves. I was ordered to take up security while they put the body in my poncho. A few hrs. later I was told I had to re-enlist or go home. Captain Dyduryc did offer me promotion to E-4 but that was all. I did not re-up and Rescorla just grinned real big when I gave him my last salute.
This guy obviously didn't read the book, nor does he know much about Vietnam, and he knows nothing about military tactics. 1. "All this really did was really did was alert the NV that the Americans were on the way" The NV were waiting for them long before any artillery even dropped, that was their whole reason for the Plei Me SPF camp attack weeks earlier, it was to draw the US forces out of the base, also Moore had done a necessary aerial recon of LZ XRAY at 8:15 that morning, exactly 1 1/2 hours before the artillery prep and 2 hours before the air assault landing. Due to the size of the clearing, Moore knew they could only bring 8 of the 16 choppers of the 1st, making them vulnerable until enough troops were brought in, half an enemy platoon in the woodline near the LZ could of made for a lot of casualties on the landing. Moore correctly had the two batteries of 105 mm lay down their prep fire both west and south of the LZ.
Continued. 2. "The will to fight" While there was morale problems later in the war, that problem didn't exist in 1965. Also a lot depended on the type of unit and the unit's leadership, special forces and of course Marine usually were self motivated. 3. When he talks about the death scene of the Sgt., "So brimming with American patriotism that it makes the eyes roll in back of my head" Hal Moore specifically said that it was very important to him that the utterances of the dying troops were exactly what they said. The Sgt. actually did say he was he was glad he could die for his country, that some said to tell their wives that they loved them, and many called out for their Mothers, he said that it was that way all through his tour, and if anyone knows, it would be him. 4. He completely misses the one part of the film he should complain about, the ending charge scene with the chopper, that was pure and unnecessary Hollywood.
+jonathan hill says the guy that probably wouldn't know what he is saying. The words from frank are the EXACT words that came out of major plumley during an interview.
TBH, I've been present during traumatic grief. The reaction shot of the Black American woman is spot on. TBH 2: in the Unit, the same actress portrayed essentially the same scene, making her the go to for newly widowed black woman. Also, the vital role played by Rick Rescorla was totally ignored. Also, there was a sequel LZ Albany. Coming to a theater near nobody.
Yeah, it's kinda dubious to portray the battle as an American victory, when at best it was a stalemate - the Americans took a solid kicking during the trek to LZ Albany. Both sides incurred roughly 50% casualties - and given the disparity in means could reasonably be considered a tactical defeat for the US.
@@onylra6265not really a stalemate. The US lost 3/4 of the fighting force at Albany, it really only shone light on the difference between a battalion commander being in the thick of things, with good, solid leadership from his immediate subordinates, and a command that intermingled a few good leaders with a commander who was naive or afraid of taking rounds..... C company I believe was in a column when the ambush started? And the front two companies were in good formation, but their leadership was 4-500 meters away with the B.C. ....LZ X-ray showed what highly motivated and well-led men could accomplish against a force at least ten times their own.
Not to mention that LZ X-ray was the last time a Colonel was deployed by America into a field battle. LZ Albany was a major blunder by the US forces trying to save fuel and machinery over human lives. The men were not even screening an advance. They were sacraficed due to poor military decisions by top brass.
About the two soldiers were killed who said "Glad I could die for my country" and "Tell my wife I love her".....I hate to burst your bubble but that is exactly what those two soldiers said before they died. The Lt. and 1st Sgt. of the "Lost Platoon" were the first casualties of the battle and their words were heard from those who were with them when they died. Sorry the Historical accuracy of their last words on this planet was too much for you.
Robert MacLean He was probably irritated bc they did a whole scene for the two mens deaths Making it too cliche Could of been more humble with the filming making and made them a quicky For example emphasize the "Wife" scene n' then the boy who cries "Country" could of been subliminal Maybe overhead in the background So vidid only true readers of book would of caught it
23:05 I work in Casualty Affairs for the Army, and this is a 100% realistic reaction to notification. Happens all the time, people are at once in shock and disbelief, and are expressing denial while also not knowing what to actually say. So it just comes out as head-shaking and "uh-uh". Absolutely accurate.
Thanks for you're service on this Memorial Day! I have some questions...what kind of vehichle do you show up in? Uniform? Do you come with someone else? Do you need to be an officer? Any interesting stories?
@@TM-bn8pv Thank you. Okay, so to try to address your questions, which are all good: 1. The vehicle will be whatever we can get. We will try to provide a government vehicle (usually a sedan) to the notification team, but if it's a late-night or really-early-morning notification, and the motor pool is closed, they may end up just going out in their own personal vehicle. We try to minimize that happening, but sometimes there's just no way around it. Timely notification takes priority over being choosy about the car they drive. 2. Class A Army Service Uniform, 100% of the time. We will never send a team to do notification wearing anything less than their full dress uniforms. 3. The notifier always has a Chaplain (military version of a priest or minister) to go with them. It is a mandate from the DOD that a Chaplain always goes along. There are occasionally exceptions where we might be permitted to send a notifier with another Officer or NCO who isn't a Chaplain, but those exceptions have to come from Department of the Army. 4. Not necessarily. The basic requirements are that notifiers (and assistance officers) must be Sergeant First Class+, Captain+, or Chief Warrant Officer 2+, so senior NCOs and Warrants can be notifiers as well. The more important requirement is that they are equal to, or greater in rank than the deceased soldier. 5. Tons of stories, far more than could fit in the comments section of RU-vid lol. Every case is unique, and has its own special circumstances that we have to deal with, or family situations that make things difficult. But dealing with the unique challenges of each case is why we're here, and it's an honor and a privilege to be given the opportunity to help a soldier's family through the worst time of their lives.
@@henrym.2156 Thank you for responding! Especially on Memorial Day, this has to be a day that will be tough for some of those families, but also those that will celebrate their family or friends who sacrificed for the greater good. Tough job but a really meaningful job to have...to never know the reaction to being someone that can provide a family member some support. It's tough now for sure, just cant imagine it back in WW2/Vietnam wars. Despite the loss, I love the tradition of the notification. I dont know if you could do it any other way. One last couple questions: 1. Do you stay with the families/family member for awhile (if they want somebody or are alone at the time), and provide comfort (hugging, and things like that you see in movies)? 2. Do you handle most of the lost soldiers arrangements for burial and viewing/funeral and anything else that goes into the post notification process for the family so they can grieve and not worry about that? 3. If you are notifying a family member or doing any other arrangements at the time, what is the day to day work? 4. What is family is not home or wherever else you think they are to notify them? 5. If the lost soldier has no family left, I'm guessing someone needs to be designated such as a friend? Last question, and I truly appreciate you answering my first set. And if you dont want to reply, no harm.... 6. What if the name of the soldier killed has been released by the media or some other entity before the notification process? How do you adjust for that situation? Thank you! And again I truly thank you for you're service and wish you a happy Memorial Day.
@@henrym.2156 i've just noticed there is a movie called "The Messenger " with Woody Harrelson in it. Have you seen that and is it a realistic portrayal of your work?
@@TM-bn8pv I have. It gets a lot right (family reactions, the impact on the person doing notification, the dangers of getting too personally involved), but it gets *a lot* wrong, too. There is formal training that soldiers go through to be considered qualified to perform a notification, a Staff Sergeant is too low a rank to be a notifier, a chaplain would be in attendance, and the notification team normally spends time at the family's house after the notification to answer questions, and fill out some paperwork. All in all, it feels like a Hollywood producer got their hands on an outdated version of the Army regulation for Casualty Affairs and jumped head-first into making a movie without understanding half of it.
The lines "Tell my wife I love her," and "I'm glad I died for my country," aren't clichéd. I've read reports that said "Tell my life I love her," is the most common last-line for real soldiers. "F*ck," "Sh*t" or "Yep I'm dead," or words to that effect are also very common. Not sure about the "I love my country," thing, but it wouldn't surprise me if that is also common among dying men. Soldiers who volunteer are typically highly patriotic, which is one of the reason Western militaries oppose conscription. They from experience that conscripts make bad soldiers (not always of course, but often).
Craig Sinclair Conscripts need to be well motivated, today, with many people opposed to war and conflict and the military, the only worthy soldiers are volunteers.
23:02 That scene actually moves me to tears each time I watch it. In my opinion, the realization of her husband's death and the following denial to accept it comes across very real, very human.
I have to agree, as a Marine, I had to go along with the I&I and the chaplain a few times. It is the most heart wrenching display, she played it perfectly. Everyone reacts differently. Some have incredibly extreme reactions and some have none at all, trying to keep their composure.
I've seen a few people die in my time, unfortunately. The times that I've been there when the wife is informed can be varied from what this actress portrayed to a simple lost stare, emotionless. We even had one wife who started laughing, thinking it was a joke being played on her, until reality set in.
Just wanted to point out that I know that the "I'm glad I could die for my country" and "Tell my wife I love her" scene is a real cliche. however in the book it is what those 2 soldiers actually said when they died. It may have seemed cliche, but I think they were just trying to be as close to the book as possible... Some things from the book would have been too over the top and unbelievable, and too gruesome for the audience. I recommend the book to anyone who's into military history. Its one of the best I have ever read.
+Alexander Banas When you say "he" do you mean the movie's director, the book's author, or this channel's narrator? Since the book was written by two of the guys there, I believe they did their research. Since they were also consultants to the movie's director, I understand he took a few "licenses" to make it an action movie (the final "Charge" up the hill with the helicopter gunship swooping in, for example) but I believe the director also did a very good job of trying to get it (mostly) right. I do have issue with many of the criticisms History Buffs levels, but he does sound kind of young, so growing up in a different world gives one quite a different perspective.
+TheSheepDogPatriot1776 I would imagine that. If it shocks us as spectators. To those who actually were there it must have trigered a go back to that hell. My deepest respect for those men and many kids 17/22 years old. Know we have a generation that has feelings that can't be hurt and chase Pokémons. God save us if we have a Holly war here in Europe.
23:20 I know a LOT of black people where I'm from and I can tell you that a lot would react that way when speechless after tragic news. People from where I'm from, even myself, speak and react that way sometimes.
For me, that reaction was spot on. Could be a cultural difference maybe? Perhaps Blacks in Britain react a bit differently to bad news (perhaps less outward expression of denial, or something?) I could be way off of course but that was my first thought.
@@primusvsunicron1 I agree with you for the most part but the author of the book was Galloway (The journalist) with the help of Lt. Gen. Moore and other witnesses. So as much as it is a cliche, I'm okay with it since it wasn't just placed in the movie out of nowhere but taken out of the novel and made into a scene.
You answered your own question. Why even ask. Why not just say "In the book that soilder does say "tell my wife I love her." " you are hereby an official gay boi.
I worked with one of Hal Moore’s daughters and had the privilege of meeting the general once. You didn’t like the scenes with the children, but it is true that he was a great family man that lived his wife and kids. Part of the power of the movie is showing that the general is not some two dimensional war monger. He cared about his family and his men.
While I agree, based on what you and others have said, that the criticism of 'fluffy' scenes is perhaps a bit too harsh, I also think that the overall sentiment is valid: it's all a bit too much (as in overdone), and could have been done better in a scaled-down, more focused manner. Like the letter-writing Vietnamese soldier; that poor sod got remarkably little screen time for the remarkable impression he made.
@@janbadinski7126 I don't want the fluff? Perhaps I was unclear, but I don't really care for it; I really do think it's 'overdone'. Perhaps Gen. Moore is/was a very loving, dedicated family man; great. I'm just saying that that could have been shown just as well in a more succinct manner that didn't make so many of us's toes crawl. It's not the fact I've got a problem with, it's the excessive amount of screen time it's given.
They could have at least done it in a way with humanity and not something that looked like a propaganda short for a concerned group of citizens promoting an idealized notion of the ideal nuclear american family.
My uncle was there... He watched this film with me and said the only thing they had wrong was the way everyone was standing up and running around. The grass was over 6ft tall and you couldn't see more than a few feet most of the time. After the fighting started it became easier to move due to the grass being worn down. But all in all it was a great movie showing what it was actually like in combat.
That's what I didn't like about this movie was how everyone just stood up and ran around in the open. When bullets fly over your head you fucking hit the ground or hide in whatever hole you can and everyone yells "where the fuck did that come from?!" . I still loved the movie but, goddamn...
Chris Stevens my uncle was there as well. I have not watched this knowing that one of those young men is a representation of him.. actually in all I had for Uncle’s there just at different times but one in this battle.
From 21:00, to 23:38, you become desensitized to the feelings conveyed by dying soldiers and the families awaiting their return. It is infuriating to hear someone mock characters presented as realistic human beings for using (admittedly) clichéd responses when they are genuine. That being said, this is still a decent review, and it led to further discussion in the comments, which is good.
Not to mention those were the actual last words of those men as they were dying in a jungle thousands of miles from their families. He really should have read the book and researched the battle more.
In fairness, post 1975, any movie using “tell my wife I love her”, or some other traditionally cheesy line should be universally panned for including that line in a dying scene unless used in real life (ironically in this case). Granted I’m sure 99% of the RU-vid comments quoted the 1 guy in the comments who actually read the book, most of the people probably thought the same of that scene or agreed until they read the comments, then decided to have a pussy fit. Then again, I didn’t agree with the part he said about the black chick acting, but I also get the cultural difference between a dude who hasn’t had any impact of direct war in his direct sphere of socialism and a black American woman who knows what soldiers with a flag coming to her door means... so I’m not planning him that much for it.
I’ve watched about a dozen of your reviews and this is my first serious disagreement with you. I was 5 years old when I watched my dad go out the door to Vietnam (I'm guessing I was about the same age as Gen. Moore's youngest when he deployed). I appreciated the kids being depicted as they were in the film, especially the youngest. At that age, trying to understand why dad has to go to this war half way around the world is not easy (I had a similar conversation with my dad that Moore had with his daughter). My dad completed his 13-month tour and came home in one piece. The scene where the black woman received the telegram about her husband being KIA, I think, drove home just how badly prepared the US Army was for this battle from a morale and support standpoint.
“It sounds like I am nitpicking but this is so cliche!” This statement would have been correct if it wasn’t for the fact that they actually said them in the book. Womp womp womp.
evac slived yes, even though it actually happened and that man actually said that, but no, just because it’s cliche now, it has to be cringe that he said that
23:02 Im gonna have to disagree on you with this scene in particular. She perfectly captures all the 5 stages of grief in the matter of seconds. I dont think it unlikely someone would react this way when told of their husbands death.
None of the heartfelt moments in the movie are farcical , they are as true as the early sixties, and for those of us who lived them, we feel then, we do not laugh.....
To be fair to the referenced American arrogance about air superiority: The North Vietnamese's resilience is borderline miraculous. The fact that they were able to sustain the kind of damage and casualties they did and keep fighting is a testament to their remarkable bravery and hard work. I wouldn't say America was arrogant. I would say the North Vietnamese were shockingly tough.
I’d wager a mix of both. American commanders in particular ranged from misguided to completely deluded, but I would agree that it would be disingenuous to the Vietnamese’ bravery and stubbornness to simply act like it was entirely American failure against an equally bad enemy as opposed to the complicated reality.
Yes, the freedom fighters of Ho Chi Minh were hot shit, fighting a war of liberation against the Pentagon is not a walk in the park. I always thank them for their service to their country.
All of those generals were young officers in WWII and Korea. They had seen Normandy, Anzio, Tinian, Iwo Jima, Okinawa… of course they firmly believed America was an undefeatable military power. They watched the America of their childhood go from the Great Depression to the industrial leader of the world. They saw their military go from still using horses and biplanes to fully mechanized infantry and nuclear weapons. That arrogance had been cultivated by 25 years of explosive growth on top of victory in a generational war. A general in 1965 had stayed in the military through the post-war draw down, the economic boom of the 50’s, and rise of the Cold War. He’s not wishy-washy about America and it’s place in the world. The kind of man who rises to flag rank in that environment is by his nature arrogant about America. Of course they would not and could not see the Vietnamese as a real military threat.
@Claudia Juarez they did what they were ordered to, you never know, maybe he was drafted, and if he wasnt maybe he just wanted to help the american troops, war is bad no matter what, but sometimes, you do what you have to
@Claudia Juarez BECAUSE HIS COUNTRY TOLD HIM TO GO YOU ILLITERATE DEMOCRAT FOOL. There is no such thing as individual discretion in this situation. Obviously you have never soldiered.
10:56 You might be surprised to learn that many young military wives are first experiencing the outside world. Give her the benefit of doubt -- she had probably come from the Northern States, where segregation wasn't as prevalent or outward. I spent 20 years in the US Army, and I have TONS of stories of having to educate young couples on the "dangerous outside world." Many fellow vets would probably agree.
absolutely; I bet half of the wives back then couldn't have pointed out Vietnam on a map, much like many dependas can't find Afghanistan. Hell, I bet even my own mother would've had a slightly rough time picking out Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq when my father was fighting in the Gulf War. I know it can be considered so "foreign" that it would be outside of one's situational awareness as compared to a domestic issue, but unless one is directly involved, one can live in relative ignorance. For example: would anyone in South Dakota care about a refugee or illegal immigration crisis?
You are right she was from a well off family and daddy's little princess. Before she got married the hardest thing she ever had to deal with was a broken nail or a bad hair day. I doubt she was allowed to watch the news it might upset her. She may very well not have had any idea what it was like down south.
@xNAJAFx The newspapers might cover discrimination, but they wouldn't necessarily have details. Someone not from the South would never have run into this kind of thing. It is entirely believable that such a person might misinterpret that sign. (I grew up in NJ during the sixties & seventies.)
@xNAJAFx but if she and her husband came from "Wyoming", Whites Only and No Coloreds signs would never be seen. Segregation was mainly a southern thing. She would only know if she really watched the national news about it. People from different places misinterpret all kinds of customs. I had a friend from England visit and he wanted to go inside Sonic Drive In to get a table to sit down and eat.
Happy Being Miserable he had an excellent part in the recent Ken Burns documentary about the Vietnam war, he was essentially pressed into service by the CO that day.
21:26, those two death moments I think went over History Buffs head. It wasn't simply the cliche, the tone and way he the first man delivered the line "I'm glad I died for my country." was so heartbreaking. These kids really thought they were going all out in service of their country. A whole generation raised on the heroics of WW2 and the war stories of Korea. What a fool I would have been alongside them.
@@Praisethesunson Yeah, i support American imperialism since its one of the few imperialism's that are actually good, also what do you mean by "only rich vote"?
@@notrius7754 Oh. The votes of your master class are the only ones that actually determine the conditions of your life. Your empire exists to serve the holders of Capital. You rabble are there to live and die making profits for the already wealthy. That's why you don't have universal healthcare. It's also why your taxes went up.
Steven Rose well, if you remember just before the full training segments, the young officers were examining and playing around with a minigun that was shooting dummy rounds. And the first time Moore was trying to put some covering fire for his men that were placed at the base of the mountain that the NVA were based at, those two Huey’s had the Rocket pods that were just becoming standards on most Huey’s at the time, in a short moment reaction response to experience from a few previous skirmishes.
You sir, have never seen a person in shock react. I love your channel, I respect your comments normally, however on this matter you are way off base. I have seen family members after being notified of horrific news react very much the same way as depicted. I have seen worse. stepping back and responding in the negative is pretty much a base line response.
You're right. I love this channel, but he got this one fucked up. Hollywood adds a lot of dramatic effect, that's true, but sometimes it's needed: and this is one of those times.
Come on i think you are missing the point. If someone says one cliche dying line then sure but why it has to be instantly followed by another it just takes you out of the previous moment. Might as well had a third guy telling please water my house plants
@@Jebu911 sir. You are missing the point. Those are actually things that happen! Cheese or not. I’ve seen grown men call for their monies. I’ve seen a man (this one didn’t die he just lost his foot) talk about how shamed he was because what he was doing. (He was a drug addict long story short. He lost his foot during a burglary and while I attended him he told me all about his errors). Very cheesy stuff for someone who wasn’t there
@@toddkorson8207 You are still missing the point as we are talking about film making here. You don't see half the squad simultaniously taking a shit in the jungle either even tho that happened too.
Dunno, the movies he’s done all have the common theme of being America’s shitty wars. Band of Brothers review on the other hand... kinda disproves this argument. We shouldn’t have fought Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh quoted Jefferson in his first declaration and petitioned for US aid. We fought against an independence movement and lost. Check out the ken burns documentary or read some books.
@@debohancock4716 except those films are fairly historically accurate. Are you trying to claim many more recent Hollywood war films are historically accurate, because if you are you'd be the first person who wasn't on DVD commentary to lay that praise on them
@@shrekfanboy5446 Completely agree with your point - although could argue that he isn't even anti mel gibson because of the master and commander review. Just think he's anti "hollywood" and mistakenly calls out the dying words here not realising its true to the novel (they are admittedly both extraordinarily cliché)
What I took from your review of "We Were Soldiers" is that you have never been in a war zone. I served in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive before volunteering to relieve troops sent to S. Korea in response to the Pueblo hi-jacking, Operation Combat Fox. I received a minor injury, approximately a 2" x 1/2" piece of meat gouged out of the center of my back. A couple of days later I had to return to the base hospital to have my bandage changed. I couldn't go back to work as I was on pain meds. The night before there was a major firefight. As I walked down the sidewalk along the hospital there were a never ending row of the large laundry baskets like hotels & commercial laundries use filled to overflowing with blood soaked sheets. So much blood! Inside the hospital where they changed my dressing were seemingly endless rows of stainless surgical tables. I'm 76 now & I still can't get those images out of my mind. So take a breath before "laughing" at the death scenes & complaining about scenes of home corny or not.
My grandfather served in Korea. He never talked about it either. When I came home from my first Iraq tour we had so much more in common and after that he opened up, it also gave me a chance to talk to someone who understood.
Those soldiers actually said those cliche things as they were dying, though. You also have to remember this was 1965. Most people still were true believers and assumed their government wouldn't lie to them. Lt. Herrick was cut from that cloth, and absolutely said "I'm glad I could die for my country" before expiring. Because it's what he believed in. This is a well done video, but even the most cursory research would've shown this. The scenes in question occur early in the book, and it's apparent that you simply didn't bother to read it.
They went with these takes because they were bringing in the whole human experience that you were too dense to see, instead you ridicule these scenes..... oh well, guess you need some whining to feel like you have criticized an did not say too much good about a film.. (keeps your credibility up [in your own mind] perhaps?) PS... we LOVE this movie, so much better then the other Vietnam movies that just show psycho, weirdness as norm...BS
Having personally informed a widow and having held soldiers in their last moments, I can tell you, this movie, did wonders to capture the emotional intensity and denial that manifests itself. If you’re not familiar with the process of the gut wrenching and chaotic nature of informing someone’s spouse of their passing, please, please, don’t take the piss. Especially as you’re a smug civilian
And I agree, nurses, police, firefighters etc certainly do. I think the problem with soldiers who served in Iraq/Afghanistan had it compressed down into a small time frame Death isn’t the main factor in ptsd It’s the constant fight and flight on a daily basis and the emotional numbing/depression that comes with dealing with that
The Viet Minh did not defeat the Japanese in Vietnam. All they had been doing were guerilla operations until the Japanese surrendered in Indochina to the Allies.
Ah, the Allies? Vietnam as Wasn't exactly a joint effort compared to ww2. Japanese constricts were hired by the American government and the only other Western nation to help the Americans when the French pulled out was Australia. Other than that... that was it.
RIP to Captain Thomas Metsker, who gave up his seat on an evac chopper to one of his soldiers who was injured worse. After hopping off the chopper he was shot and killed right then and there. A fellow alumni of The Citadel, and a national hero, he will forever be remembered
The most film’s heart-wrenching moments, for me, were the deaths of Jack Geoghegan and Jimmy Nakayama. Both men were deprived of the chance to know their respective children. Also, RIP Lt. Hal Moore
Had to deliver the news to a mother her son was passed on from a car accident... She virtually had the same response as the lady at the door... She kept repeating Ya'll stop lying to me at least 20 times and her husband finally downstairs and held her she told him we were lying to her... Thus that scene was very real life to me... I delivered bad news as a police chaplin over a 100 times and each was a different experience with the person at the door...
I think it's hard for people to understand trauma if they have never been through it themselves and only seeing it in movies. My best friend was murdered when I was 18 and when his brother told me on the phone I just broke down and threw up in the toilet. Up until that moment if I ever saw someone throw up in a situation like that I thought it was kind of done for the movies. I try not to judge people who haven't been through something like that I just look at them as they are a bit naive and innocent.
Jimmy, when I worked as a cop I did a number of death notifications. I'll second your statement that some people just stand there and refuse to accept the news and just say "No". Seen it myself a few times. The scene was perfectly reasonable. I like this guy's reviews but sometimes he tries to be a bit too smart for his own good. For instance, he hates the scene with the kids in the car singing. I was a child of that era, and on long trips that what we did to pass the time. There were no portable DVD players, no cell phones, and not even FM radios in most cars. We sang songs like that with our parents until we got tired and fell asleep in the back seat, which is what our parents were trying to achieve. Cheers, and thanks for your service as a police Chaplain. I've seen you guys do great things in my time on the street.
This was one scene that got right the gut wrenching emotions expressed when being told of a loved ones unexpected death. I experienced it twice with 2 of my sisters. They were aged 31 and 54 and died years apart. The first I dropped the phone and just stared at the ceiling totally numb. My wife asking me what;s wrong and I literally could not answer. The second time complete different response. A complete cerebral calm came over me which allowed me to step into the middle of a chaotic situation and become the voice of reason to help the rest of my family to make the necessary decisions in the aftermath. Her reaction was as real as it gets.
I'm sorry those boys couldnt think of more interesting things to say when they died. Those two death statements actually happened and that's actually what they said. I respect your channel a lot, but you dropped the ball on this one. Those men weren't poets, and they're entitled to whatever cliches they wanted.
The men, yes. Not the movie. If you put lines like that in your movie, then don't be surprised when people roll their eyes. In a movie, those lines are beyond stupid, and he is talking about the movie.
@@OWnIshiiTrolling The movie is based on historical fact. Nick would RAIL on the movie if they changed the -actual spoken words- as he has done in previous reviews. This one he just completely missed the mark.
@@redkobold1 I think changing the actual words is useful to avoid silly tropes. If anything, he should have been clearer about what exactly his criticism is. I don't think he is criticising what anyone actually said. If you get shot and die in a war, you can say whatever you want. I wouldn't clown on anyone for doing that. The critcism seems to be specifically about how that comes off in a movie, where those lines have been done to death. Changing that coud have improved the movie, if done well, and I think that is valid point. The movie portraying real events doesn't make it not a movie, and that has to be considered when writing the script.
To change the truth for pure entertainment and money is to dishonor the fallen. People who run from hide or change the truth are hurting themselves and or the people closest to them. This has been the problem with the average person. The truth only hurts once. A lie can last forever.
Having been in the jungles in Vietnam I think people underestimate how brutal the heat would have been on top of all the other carnage. It is suffocatingly hot and humid there. I was drenched in sweat just walking around looking at some ancient temples in a t-shirt and shorts. I honestly dont know how it was possible to send a bunch of westerners into the jungle in all that heavy gear and have them run around in battle. They must have lost a lot of soldiers just to heat stroke and dehydration.
Most of the Vietcong and NVA were city dwellers as well. The jungle was foreign to almost all involved. The farm boys on both sides tended to handle it better. This is from an Interview I saw with an NVA vet.
I remember watching this film in history class. My teacher was a Vietnam vet. He wasn't in this particular battle but he said that when men died they always cried for one of two people: their wives or their mothers.
Mother's touch cold as day. Women's touch make men quiver Men in boats shot to shit Thinking of the love ones Reminds them of joy, Interrupted by the sounds of War.
@@logie3020 WTF? That is your response? Four things I am willing to die for: 1. My child 2. My wife 3. My country 4. My faith Why introduce a lame poem into a serious conversation about one's mortality and the validity of one's final words? Not cool, man.
@@johngalt6752 that was a poem about soilders dying not the beach thinking of love ones in their last min in this trash earth. I have nothing but respect for those who traded their lives just for me to tell you to fuck off. Your not cool and neither is the American government for having this conflict in the first place. War is the undeming truth that without it we would be moving shit.
@@CPTdrawer22 still didn't take away the fact America has done some terrible things to people in the past. But that's history yeah I've never fought but don't get me wrong here I love the false freedom that we have. Your still goingon about freedom but to this day in your country you will be shamed for even bring up freedom of speech America is a joke.
@@logie3020 Happy to butt in on this one. What peaceful nation do you hail from so I can search for the terrible things it has done... hypocrisy. And, how much freedom do you need? You can only have so much before you're infringing on the freedom of others hence there are limitations....
Listen. I love your videos but the lines in here, when the men died, are accurate. Word for word quotes. They asked for their mom’s. (Saving Private Ryan). It was better than all of those other movies. Way better. This movie was exact. Even the costumes were painstakingly built.
Alright so, the cliche death scenes. I am going to assume you were never in the military, correct me if I am wrong. But I was and I was in Iraq. Now I never witnessed someones last moments but I can tell you, there are many men in the military who would truly say "I am glad I could die for my country" because a lot of them are overly patriotic to an unhealthy level. And the one about the wife. Family is so important when you are deployed. You cling to them like you've never clung in your life, and it is totally plausible someone would say this. I like you and your channel but you can be really nit picky sometimes and it sometimes seems like you assume everyone has the same life experiences and views you do. Also, I liked the kids... and they did get me to care more about Hal moore. Aaaannnd one more thing... when they tell that wife her husband is dead... that scene always makes me tear up, it's actually really emotional... This coupled with the kids thing makes me think you're just a little heartless.
+Steven Winters Not to mention, if you read the book, those are the recorded last words of the soldiers who died. History Buffs really missed the boat on this one. Honestly, a lot of people that I've met that claim to be "history buffs" don't understand the first part of primary source material. If the creator of this video is going to point out flaws...he better have his sourcing accurate. This one just came across as someone who has a vague idea about Vietnam and not a clue about USA during the civil rights era.
You clearly weren't in a combat MOS. We're taught pretty early on that we aren't expected to die for our country, but to make the *other* guy die for *his*. I don't know a single man I served with that would ever have said they were "glad to die" for their country. 12B here.
Steven Winters I agree with most of your points but I disagree with the death scenes The man is really into watching movies and he, like I can, tell a shitty movie from a good one. Maybe if they hadn't shot the scenes back to back and put so much emphasis on the both of them it could of came out great Imagine if you read the book and you knew about both of the mens last words, and as the movies goes on you see the scene "Tell my wife..." right? Awww very sad Then a min later you see The exact same seen just different speech. If they threw in "Glad I could die for my country" more subliminally, like a scene only people who read the book would catch, then that would satisfy an avid movie critic like himself. Dont give him shit bc he has different views Youre kinda doing what you said for him not to do Glad you could serve btw
Steven Winters I think the main issue with the scene isn't that it's cliche it lacks context they could have at least added a flash back showing his family or enlisting because of uber patriotism
My mother grew up in Seattle, WA and knew nothing of segregated bathrooms and water fountains until she and my dad took a trip to Georgia just after they were married in 1964. She said she was it was the stupidest thing she ever saw, all sewage goes to the same place. So, as a "history buff" maybe you shouldn't be so eager to jump to conclusions.
@@JosephDawson1986 not at the same level they did in the South. And the reason isn't because of less racism up North or any horse shit like that. It's because there weren't as many blacks living in the rural areas up North. Black people were and still are a part of the social fabric of the rural South in many places. While there were and are black neighborhoods in a place like Atlanta similar to Harlem in New York City it was far more common for black people to live out in the country and end up rubbing shoulders with whites down South. Besides that girl looks like somebody who grew up in the suburbs and I guarantee that the places she shopped and went had so few black people in them that there was no need to segregate things.
@@ashleighelizabeth5916 that accent is straight up NYC so most likely she came from Long Island and if thats the case she grew up around plenty of black folk there. They would have been the help but being the 60s they would have been working along side Irish and Italian families who been in NYC since the Civil War and then ofcourse all the vsrious Europeans. I remember a picture my uncle had of him in the Queens area and there was a sign in a store that read read Help wanted: and then used a slur for Blacks, Jews and and italians need not apply. In 1963.
Maybe you should have read the book.... Those cliche lines of death were what those soldiers actually said. I like you Nick, but sometimes you are the one who jumps to generalizations and misconceptions and Hal Moore was a family man, so I don’t know what you expected his kids to be like...
I think it's more about how the death lines were said that what was said. He never said he had a problem with Hal Moore having a family, he has a problem with the acting and portrayal of the children. the writing, acting and presentation for them was awful. they lack even the most basic characterisation and nuance and are very one dimensional.
Nick does focus on how important it is that we see that the Vietnamese soldier is humanized yet Hal Moore as a family man is trivialized. Why is that? I thought the kids were fine and showed a idealized normal family where the youngest is a bit spoiled and gets away with stuff the older children would be scolded for.
9:25 I’ve lived in Rigby, Idaho my entire life. To hear the man in that interview say that he witnessed such things happen to a fellow soldier from my hometown really hit hard. R.I.P and know that you’re sacrifice has not gone unrecognized!
I live in Buenos Aires, Argentina, I'm now 34 and since age 8 I was an avid investigator of the Vietnam War of Liberation, how Ho Chi Minh and his freedom fighters walked the extra kilometre, put their lives on the line to save their country from hi-tech enemies. Tales of heroism, sacrifice and bravery I counted in the scores! I always thank the Vietcong for their service.
It's so weird because my father a veteran said the combat scenes looks gaudy. He said no man were dumb enough to shoot while standing unless he needs to move. In fact the main casualties from the Vietnamese side were due to air strikes (American air power were effective) and many of those guerrillas died due to their refusal to move under fire when air strikes came or getting shot for moving when air strikes came. They were afraid to die as any American. This made the stupid guy who charged in with a bayonet quite hilarious to watch. Their formation was usually quite disorganised too and that lead to many units got isolated and destroyed easily. No such nice advance formation as in the movie. Their understand of tactics were poor and the only reason the war ended as such was American and South Vietnam leaders forgot war is a political tool, not a game.
+Duy Linh Chu Ha Was your father also in this battle? I think at the beginning the NVA leaders did stick with such human wave tactics, because they showed to be very effective against the French. As you see in the movie, the soldiers are indeed very frightened but were told that their sacrifices were nessecary and noble to gain independence. After such horrible loses, the leaders saw that they had not much against such superior firepower in open battles and did rethink their tactics. There is also a difference between the NVA (regular soldiers) and the Vietcong (guerilla troops mostly operating in the south). Btw.: What does your father think about the war? I once met a Vietnamese catholic, who said that it was best when Americans were in Vietnam and they fled when the Communists won because they ruined the land.
+Duy Linh Chu Ha I wouldn't really say that the war was treated as a game, but more as a single theatre of a much broader conflict. At the time the US and South Vietnamese leaders had to find a way to fight against the NVA and VC without pushing into North Vietnam or completely destroying North Vietnamese bases and facilities because of the Russian and Chinese advisers who were often near these places. They were afraid that it would trigger a more direct, and all out war with Russia and/or China if one of their advisers was killed. They also underestimated the large number of US citizens who were ideologically aligned with the communist forces, and would seek to undermine the US military effort in Vietnam.
+Mike Mac if they were concerned with those advisers they wouldn't have made excursions into Cambodia. MACV SOG missions had uncovered many of these advisers and their search and destroy won't let them get away that easily. The main problems were the Southern government budget wasn't managed well and the economy relies too much on foreign aids due to the war effort. The city dwellers enjoyed many economic achievement but the same couldn't be said about the rural folks many of whom were unsympathetic to the cause of the South. Corruption was one thing but Washington obsession with the enemy and victory, conveniently ignoring the process of building a proper sustainable system in the South brought it down after they left. This still lingers in subsequent conflicts, they just never learn, young men and women continue to pay the price.
Obviously, the reviewer has never seen a person die in front of their eyes. I trust Joe Galloway's account as he saw these guys in person. I normally love your show and agree with you 99% of the time but you missed the point if you think that part is not historically accurate.
Galloway wrote the book, and he included in depth material from both Vietnamese and American participants in the battle, as well as people on the homefronts. He spent extensive time with General Hal Moore and General Nguyen An .... during the battle, obviously, but also years later when he wrote the book. The movie does a fantastic job of taking Galloway's book and fairly accurately turning it into a movie.
Tony Aiello History Buffs is a historian, not a soldier. He reviews what most soldiers have seen, he does not have to fight in a war to speak about them
Draftees accounted for about 25% of all US Vietnam soldiers. Most were volunteers. As to those death scenes, that is how they happened. If it's over the top, well, talk to history.
Guys volunteered for many different reasons from patriotism to boredom at home. One of the many reasons to enlist was the hope that by enlisting and not waiting to be drafted they had a better chance of not being sent to Vietnam but to Germany, Korea or even remaining stateside, Some did it to avoid being put into the infantry or a combat support outfit but would be trained into a non-combat MOS. A friend of mine"back in the day" had some accounting credits and thought he was "too valuable" to be made a grunt and shipped to "the NAM". He was partially correct. He was sent to a military finance and accounting unit-in SAIGON. True story...
@@GFSLombardo "Guys volunteered for many reasons from patriotism to boredom at home." Lmao imagine being a bit bored at home, signing up to the U.S. Army and then going through the hell of Vietnam just screaming "I DIDN'T SIGN UP FOR THIS!"
@@snorf525 I know a couple guys that signed up because they were bored and ended up in Afghanistan... kinda a common theme for a young 19 year old men to do I guess haha.
The part where the guy is dying and he says to tell his wife he loves her and you call it cliche, did you ever stop to consider that maybe whoever that was actually said that
What people, including this show unfortunately, overlook that America was never defeated in a major engagement during Vietnam. From Ia Drang to the Tet Offensive, no direct action on the part of the Communists yielded victory for the North. Infact, the Tet Offensive - considered the beginning of the end - was militaristicly considered crippling for the North, by their own measurements. What is never mentioned in these videos either is how close the North Vietnamese came to surrender due to the bombing, up until America cancelled Op. Rolling Thunder II because of public dissaproval. America lost Vietnam due to it's own public, the failure to adapt militarily only fell so far.
History Buffs I think it opens an interesting question about the future of American warfare. The problem is that even when you have a clear strategic lead, atleast in the context leading up to that point - your hands can end up tied behind your back by your own team. I'm not saying the intentions were bad or traitorous, the effort to reduce casualties and collateral damage is important. But it is interesting to simply see how far protests back in the States went to turn the tables in Vietnam. Obviously it is more important to win the war, but from an analytical standpoint, it is unparalleled in my experience that such a table-turning has ever taken place, and from so unlikely a source. The question it raises is how much influence the general public has on the US's military capacity. I'm new to the channel, but I can tell you enjoy military history, so I'm curious as to what you think of this phenomenon.
Sam Zion Technically keeping Communism from overrunning the country. they were hoping to repeat the good half of the Korean war that ultimately ended in a free South. Granted Korea as a whole is a limbo state of violence waiting to erupt, but I'll take that over the alternative any day.
+Shurik Ozerov Stopping communism? (Besides the general facts of them being an allied nation, the US Army having a base on their land which US tax payers pays for, also being able to trade because we are allies. This would not count because we trade with China for example and they are commies as well) What does the US get in return now that we stop communism from spreading to South Korea?
the real events of hacksaw ridge were too unbelievable for the movie, so they reduced the number of people he saved and the close calls he experienced.
Wasn't a fan of Hacksaw Ridge. Seems he returned to the old 'don't let any sense of reality get in the way of a story'. As soon as I saw someone firing a BAR one handed whilst holding half a corpse as a shield I thought 'oh come on!'
I agree with the comments below by Mr. Campbell. I was a corpsman in Vietnam in 1965. Most ground troops were average age of 18 to 20. I have heard soldiers crying for thier mothers as they lay dying from terrible wounds that could not be treated properly fast enough. Tramatized men with legs blown off. Abdominal wounds impacting the major organs, kidneys, liver, stomach, intestines shredded, but amazingly still alive for a few minutes. Calling out names of people in thier lives, before they received multiple grains of morphine. My training was to put the morphine syrette hypodermic needle through his shirt collar and bend it over, and with my marker make a big M on thier foreheads. These symbols would tell the medics and doctors at the field hospital this man has had morphine. The idea being to communicate the message, "careful don't overdose this patient." When one sees thier first real traumatic foot amputation from a marine stepping on an antipersonnel mine, it is horrible. That's when the idea runs like the speed of light through your head, "they didn't train us enough." But you do your job and the image in your head never goes away.
Cliches are cliches because they are so commonly true. Your reaction to "tell my wife I love her" shows an arrogance in failing to appreciate the truth of the human condition in war. You need not spoil good work with this lack of maturity. Similarly your complaint about the kids scene. No, the aim was not to get the audience to like Hal Moore by showing how cute his kids were. Clearly the aim was to help the audience understand the values that underpinned the man. Once again your reaction shows a failure to appreciate the human condition. I'll give you opportunity to grow up, but you need to learn to respect emotional authenticty especially when it seems corny, otherwise I'll not bother with your channel. This would be a pity because your work in general is very good.
@@brittanyanderson8195 definitely not his best work. His analysis regarding racism, I highly reject. Why wouldn’t a white military wife experience disdain when a black military family can’t wash their phucking clothes! His arrogant stupidity is disgusting and laughable.
Bosse Linder his main complaint is that they’re trying to show how he has a what we now would consider “cringy” 60s family. It makes him seem like the kind of person who give Tora Tora a one star because it wasn’t suspenseful enough.
He screwed up with his goodfellas review too. Michael francese the crime boss have an interview about goodfellas and what was fact and fiction. This kid said the scene while they were in prison eating lobsters and living like kings was legit. An actual la cosa nostra crime boss confirmed that the scene was bs.
I worked on the movie in California... Fort Hunter-Ligget is where they filmed the Vietnam scenes. Moore picked it because it looked much like the North central highlands of vietnam. I had the pleasure of meeting Hal Moore and his beautiful wife. They were such a cute couple!
"Nope. You go get him and make him alive again!" It's so ridiculous but so realistic how she's trying to emotionally protect herself. Laughing at this comes off as cruel to me.
The story that is told in the book is even more incredible than the movie. After this battle Moore basically took his force and saved another battalion that was in the mire. Moore was an incredible officer and leader
History Buffs clearly didn't read the book...of course, the movie also omitted the second part of the battle at LZ Albany where the US forces moving from X-ray to Albany were overrun and accounted for 70% of the US casualties in the battle. Even more terrible fighting than what the movie portrays since the NVA and Americans were scattered in pockets fighting against one another within just a few meters on one another. Soldiers could hear the screams of their comrades at night begging to not be executed and then singular gunshots...brutal, brutal stuff. I would urge anyone who is interested to read Hal Moore's "We are soldiers still" which chronicles his research efforts with the Vietnamese and their reception of "We were soldiers, once and young". He went back to Vietnam with many of his former soldiers and the Vietnamese gathered many of their veterans of the battle to meet them...an extremely powerful book about healing and an understanding that combat soldiers have, regardless of nationality, for one another that the people they fight for have no idea about.
I saw a documentary from a former marine who went back to Vietnam and met up with former nva soldiers. He gave speeches at museums and was amazed at how the US forces had been depicted in an unbiased way . He got gifts from the locals but was called names by tourists . He even saw graves and memorials dedicated to US service personnel. It's something common among service people after a war has ended at least from what I've seen and read . My grand farther was the same. He never hated the Germans. A friend who liberated belsan camp didn't hate Germans. Hated Nazis. His division even found German regulars beating on camp guards and locals because of their disgust . It's how they discovered the camp.
I read that book i have it on my shelf few feet from me. I still remember how horrified i was from that one scene. Also i remember how one of those soldier who was executed was shot in the eye and woke up later and crawled back behind enemy lines.
@@histguy101 The fact that he actually SAID that in the end. It's even written in the goddamn books. For a history buff he sure as hell doesn't study his source material!
@@kestutisvaiciunas8663 Oh... Well, _History Buffs_ doesn't read books. They watch movies, then maybe take a hop, skip, and a jump over to wikipedia and begin writing their episodes.
I was a boy in military family moving from base to base, dad went to Korea, and Vietnam twice, Waited for him to come back. This exactly the 1960s military family experience i lived through. exactly in we we solders movie.
Yes, indeed, but I wrote and meant "in the description" of the video this would make it easier for viewers. No obligation though, your video's are incredibly interesting. Can I ask what your back ground is? (academic or professional) Ps: (i know I already asked on your channel) but do you intend on doing a review about "master and commander"? (I love the movie but I have no idea about how accurate it is about the historical facts. Cheers!
only criticism I have on your review is how much you hated on the scenes with the family. all I have to say is that as a military brat I loved those scenes. I remembered walking in my fathers boots like that around the house, or his chem warfare gear. I think the movie did a great job showing what that was like. but loving that I found your videos recently.
+Lex White I agree.....he's obviously never had to notify a real person about a real death. Her reaction in the movie was absolutely believable to someone who has. What I found offensive was the Family Guy clip.
If you've never been in combat and heard what men say when they're dying you wouldn't understand. After 31 years I have heard men cry for their mothers, God, to tell my wife im sorry and I love her to the young kid that ask If he's going to heaven. Dis the death scenes but what would you say knowing you're dying? Jmo and experience.
sometimes he's clueless...but I like him in spite of that..........I was a carrier sailor at the end of the war, 18 and scared......take care .........wiley coyote
Hardest thing I ever had to do was lie and tell a guy he'll be ok it looks alot worse than it is... hunts me in my sleep to this day. I lied and he knew it.
While I can understand your dislike of the wives and children scenes, you kind of have to have gone through it to understand the heartache. My dad served two tours in Vietnam, and shortly after was sent to Okinawa for two years. I didn’t really get to know my dad until after he retired.
You have confused the draft with the lottery. There most certainly was a draft in 1964. Who got drafted was up to local draft boards, not a lottery, as from December 1969 until the end of the draft and start of the all-volunteer force.
The Battle of the Ia Drang was not fought by Special Forces, but by line infantry transported by helicopter. Today they're called air assault troops, to distinguish from airborne (parachute) infantry, but they are not SF, just regular infantry delivered to the battlefield by aircraft rather than truck or foot.
Absolutely incorrect. The draft was reinstituted in 1948 and let expire in January 1973. The last draftees left the Service in November 1975. I was there.
Having seen both sides in person. 1. People who are in their final moments do think mostly of loved ones. 2. The woman making noises and being very emotional when faced with the death of her husband. That is a very normal reaction. 3. If you are going to criticize something you should study what you are criticizing before you make yourself look ignorant.
I also thought the lady's reaction was absolutely realistic. Denial. The problem with the guy thinking about his wife was not the scene per se, but that it has been done to death and often spoofed. They should have known how people would react to it and shouldn't have included it. It is like killing the good guy's family in an action movie - such a cliche that the last time I simply turned off the movie. The last action hero made fun of it 25 years ago and they still use it.
Exactly, the sergeant that was dying and talking about his wife was in the dance scene. As he is dancing with her, he is singing to her and clearly loves her dearly. He has facial scars suggesting a prior war perhaps Korea. This review mocks him and his sacrifice.
@@ralphalvarez5465 No, it mocks the scene where the movie decides to shit on him by making everyone roll their eyes. It doesn't matter if he really said it. We're not watching the actual guy actually dying. We're watching a movie, where they decided to include "tell my wife I love her" v2742.35.8, even though that line was stupid the second time it was put in a movie already.
As a Vietnam war veteran who spent one year in the Central Highlands in Vietnam the Vietnam war was a total waste of life. Not just Americans but those that I saw of the Vietnamese. Look at it today now we are trading partners with Vietnam . I still love my country but I would never send my boys into a war like Vietnam. I was awarded the bronze star with the V for valor . Most of my friends don’t even know that I served because I never talk about it. Why would I unless you were there you would never understand the horrors of war. God Bless
Just wanted to say cheers for your service mate, also that its sometimes forgotten that us aussies fought along side you yanks in Vietnam, my dad fought there and he never says a word about it. We have a long history of fighting together and i hope we never have to again but im sure we will have to do it all again soon the way the world is going. This beer i dedicate to you my brother :)
jcims80; Thank you for your service - whether drafted or volunteer, it's appreciated. I assume you came home from your year in Vietnam, to a political reality very different than when you left. That was unfair to many returning soldiers, but it was what it was back here in the World. "...a total waste of life..." - I can tell you that the precursor, Korea, was even more so, and the Western Front of WWI as well. When literally zero difference is made in either territory gained (important to Generals and politicians) or number of lives lost while defending or attacking said territory over and over - it is a waste beyond measure in lives lost.
Semper Fi. Thanks for your service. However if you think that standing by and allowing the creeping expanse of international socialism isn't worth your life, might I suggest that your friends made the ultimate bet in the opposite direction, and you don't value their sacrifice enough. And if you personally don't think fighting against international socialism ( Communism) is important, please "retire" permanently so the Communist enemy can't retain your skill through the duress they will place your family under.
Perhaps you should consider the irony of the statement "I glad to die for my country." That speaks to from the soldiers perspective that was the reason some thought they were there. They fought and died for their country. They were called, they went. Just like you acknowledged the positive motivations of the Vietnamese soldiers, you shouldn't miss the positive motivations on the American soldiers. Not all U.S. soldiers in Vietnam were drafted men who just wanted to go home. In fact that characterization is kind of insulting to those of us who were in the military. All Americanisms are not patriotic dribble. Also the woman in the meeting of the wives is there to point out to the AUDIENCE the state of racism at the time of Vietnam. Not everyone watching the movie is a "history buff" and knows this, it IS a movie after all not a documentary. No disrespect, I loved your video, but some of your statements came across as slightly elitist and limited by personal perspective. Subscribed
@@Griffinsgamerreview The americans were not fighting for american freedoms anymore than the british were fighting for british freedoms during the revolutionary war. American positive reasons for fighting the war were non existent.
@@freneticness6927 to the soldiers in the trenches either American or British, they were called, so they went and some made the ultimate sacrifice, regardless of the politics. Its easy for us to make armchair rationalizations from the distance of history of the rightness or wrongness of it. My comments WERE to point out the reality that some of these men felt they were fighting for their country. And the movie depictions were not necessarily unbelievable. Thats all...nothing more.
This is literally the first battle of the war. These men are there because they’re a crack frontline unit, the jaded view of the war hasn’t sunk in yet. Ignorant take to believe everyone felt the Vietnam war was a failure especially in 1965.
+50TNCSA Someone once asked me what was going on in Ukraine..... I literary had to give them brief history of the world to explain why the USA and Russia were involved in it... this person was clueless i couldn't believe it
Agreed. Ignorance is pretty common. Plenty of people are completely oblivious to the world around them. I didn't find someone not knowing about segregation in 1964 to be unrealistic at all.
+50TNCSA Still doesn't compare to not be aware of the racial discrimination in America during that time when you actually live there, it's hard to not know what ISIS is by now, but it's still not happening right under people's noses, some people just don't care about whatever is happening "over there".
Mostly thanks to the fact the war America started as well as the bombings and devastation which spilled over to those countries caused destabilization to those countries. IT became a self fulfilled prophecy. Granted, the extent they feared was to all the way to possibly India. If anything it was potentially paranoia and propaganda to drum up support. I doubt many Americans at the time even knew what communism was other than being told it was dictatorship and evil, not going into the economics or whatever it was other than by emphasizing the things Capitalists didn't like and why their bad.
DarkArtistKaiser It would be they're* Communism is so bad. It makes everyone dirt poor, makes the tyrant leader richer than god, & kills anyone who disagrees. Look at Mao. He has 63 million of his own people die because of this flawed system.
***** Yes, but thats also cause Mao, like many communist leaders were dictators who obtained power through violent revolution(or in many cases, were placed there by the Soviets and/or supported by). Nepal has a electable Communist party and has won before and, has been voted out before. Also, it makes everyone poor, thus thats bad? So does Capitalism do that, in fact it does it even worse by making a massive wealth gap between the rich and the poor. In fact what you basically described is more or less capitalism, considering many of those corporations and their owners ARE richer than God. Seriously, look at pictures of Brazil or some other country like that. There are pictures of rich condominiums that are separated by a wall and on the other side is shacks and shanties. I refuse to be told Communism is a greater evil to capitalism when Communism these days is largely a shadow of our past and is hardly actually practiced in theory anymore wiht most countries that do practicing a form of socialism. Hell even a number of Western countries have done it because they realize that socialism can be good. Its the US though that absolutely refuses to do this because we rather be just like every other 3rd world country and have massive wealth gaps.
+nexsixtynine thritynine as a Vietnamese we have mixed feeling toward our government Some satisfy for what we have done after 20 years after US stop isolated us from the world Some wanted a better leader class cuz the current leader are corrupted So might say in Việt Nam communism is 50/50 Also the first leader of communism in vn against meaningless slaughter and wanted to co exist with the capitalist. That is why we have more peace under communist regime. That doesn't mean there are no massacre, but the government did address that many time and called it "a great mistake" Hope this can help
And further more, Vietnam and US actually have a great bonding in WW2 against Japan After WW2 our communist leader seek out many attempt to work with US but soon be rejected when US chosen to fund France to reinvade Vietnam And when president Obama visited last few months ago, you can see thousand of Vietnamese cheering on the street, a sign of us want to coexist with capitalism Another fun fact, we don't have a nice relationship with Khmer Rouge and China that is why we saw the massacre their and thought ourself to do the opposite
Love these videos, but the "tell .... that i love them" happens a lot when someone is about to die and they want their loved ones to know that they were the last thought than ran across their minds before dying
The scenes with the kids are easy to relate to if you have kids of your own. And from the standpoint of a fellow father, it helps relate with the character and understand better what he has to lose and what his family will lose if he dies. Without the kids, he's just another soldier in a uniform.
Also, the movie just shows kids being kids and the family having a good time together and there's nothing forced or badly written about it, I'm sure people like you would attest to that.
@@vigil2150 Agreed... I feel that the maker of this video really showed his lack of life experience with that bit. Also, his impulse to laugh at a reaction of denial to hearing her husband was killed I also found rather disgusting. I'm not sure how you can feel anything other than sadness, empathy, and a pit in your stomach at that scene.
Old post but as a person from a military family and a large one (5 kids) that moved around a lot when we were young. That scene of them singing and passing the time as they arrived to Fort Benning takes me back to my own childhood because that’s exactly how we were when we PCSed to the SAME POST. This reviewer can say whatever but the emotional hooks in this movie are broad and appeal to more than his small view.
I was coming to say this. As a young father, I still remember when something like this wouldn’t have moved me, but having a kid of my own made the kids’ scenes mean more to me. The children do add depth to Moore and they really do the stupid funny things like run around in your shoes or sing songs in the car in real life. Thought he missed the mark on that
@Sean Patterson if the US soldiers wanted to protect their families why were they in Vietnam? the Vietnamese did not attack the US. The US invaded to destroy an opposing ideology.
Apparently this dude has never been around American military families! That was exactly how it was in the early 60's when you moved from base to base as a family.
Women of that age did not concern themselves with either politics or Civil Rights News. With only three channels to choose from the usually spent time with family until something they wanted to watch came on usually at 8:00 in the evening, or at 7:00 in the evening on Friday when Jonny Quest came on. The original.
@@shinjaokinawa5122 This is very true unless the subject slaps you in the face like in the scene where the officers wives were discussing their laundry. That was a very realistic scene from the Sixties in an officers wive's meetup.
Yes its definitely believable a spouse from a northeastern state whose never seen segregation would be shocked by it at a Army base in Georgia or one of the carolinas, he definitely just does not understand the north-south dynamic of the US
@@andrewbossert2395 the south should leave again, and wall themselves off this time. Then they can become the next N Korea and die off like the morons they all are and the rest of the world can finally have a chance at peace and prosperity.
In 1974, at the age of 4, we went to my Nan's to watch tv, additionally, we had to leave the house to make a phone call from the telephone box that was a quarter of a mile away. We did get a black and white tv when I was 6 or 7, I think. I found that scene, especially considering her accent, perfectly fine.
The mmm mmm scene I disagree completely with you. She was in disbelief her husband was dead. That was a very natural and sad reaction to reality. Every time I see that scene I get choked up. To just accept some people showing up saying “hey this person you love is gone” is very unrealistic.
