My great grandfather was a shotgunner (officially, "trenchgunner") in WW1. He said the paper cartridge problem was overblown. What the troops did at night was use the melted wax of their issued beeswax candles and coat their shells top to bottom, which effectively made them waterproof. You could drop them in a muddy trench, wipe them on your sleeve and be good to go. In his words, the guys shooting brass rifle rounds had the most trouble because they couldn't apply wax without nullifying the primer charge. It was widespread knowledge to wax your shells from company to company, not an isolated practice. Anytime a supply deposit came through, the trenchgunners each got a case of candles. They also waxed their belts, bootleather, slings and shell bags and would do so for their fellow soldiers. They were stationed in France, and the townspeople would sometimes trade them their brass shells for the soldiers' paper shotshells. Apparently Europe had never switched to paper shotshells, so brass shells were easy to trade for if you really wanted them. I asked him about rumors about Germans offering bounties on trenchgunners, and he said that if that were the case, he'd never heard of it. He did know that Germany petitioned the League of Nations to ban shotguns, but nobody cared. He said the myth that shotgunners would shoot down potatomasher grenades like clay pigeons was BS, except maybe as a parlor trick for entertainment purposes. In his own words, he used his bayonet more than he did the gun itself. Al of his fellow trenchgunners made it home in one piece, which leads me to speculate that they weren't deployed as often as has been reported. His brigade never launched an offensive; they strictly held the line in the trenches.
This fact is so overlooked by those who say the trench gun never saw the front lines. My dad got to shoot an 1897 Winchester shotgun and said that - as he was loading the original paper cartridges into the chamber - he noticed the shells had a wax coating which made them water proof and did not interfere with the firing process. Thanks for sharing your information!
I should add that I've seen big arguments for both sides; people saying that the trench gun was effective and that's why the Germans tried to ban its use, and then people who say it was only used to guard rear flanks, and was not long range enough to be useful unless you were charged by an enemy. Some say that there were fake eye witness reports made simply as propaganda so that the army would buy more trench guns. Can you give me some insight into the facts on this subject?
Shotguns get hot, hot enough to justify a heat shield. The wax would 100% melt in the tube and jam the spring. I don’t believe this anecdote whatsoever.
I read a reference in Canfield’s book on WWI weapons where a guy said that before a trench raid, guys who were equipped with the weapon would run all the cartridges through the weapon to make sure they fed properly and discarded all the damaged ones. Still doesn’t prevent damage in the field, but just a small anecdote.
Wrong war, but my father carried a '97 in the Pacific. According to the empty hulls I found in his foot locker, he used shells with what appear to be galvanized steel hulls.
@@vigunfighter That is not the problem though, fine, so you get rid of damaged shells pre mission, but that does not detract from the fact that these were paper shotgun shells, and they were generally carried loose in the pockets. You seen pictures of no mans land? You are scrabbling from shell hole to shell hole, occasionally hitting the dirt as machinegun fire rattles out near you or a shell lands, and you are carrying PAPER shotgun shells in your POCKETS..... These are not modern plastic shells remember.... How many of them do you think are going to be in a firing condition after an hour or so of that kind of activity? Sure, the shells in the shotgun will likely be fine (so long as its dry), but those in your pocketwill have a high likelyhood of having sustained damage that will at the very least render them unable to fire, and at the very worst, possibly render them *dangerous* to fire..... The point is ammunition damage prior to mission is not the issue, ammunition damage *during* the mission is the issue.....
alganhar1 in all fairness, I have used paper cartridges enough be fairly certain that they would easily survive an hour of such conditions, would certainly fire if they would chamber, and would be highly unlikely to become unsafe to fire. What happens is that over days and months of humidity, rain, etc, they would swell or become out-of -round and fail to feed or chamber, thus rendering the gun worthless.
@@buttahXD yes and they really never made it to the front in numbers great enough to make a difference. For all practical purposes they were still using paper shells.
@@edwardpate6128 yeah, they should've transitioned to the internet while phasing out the paper catalog. They could've been an 'Amazon' and they had the advantage of having suppliers and branding in place.
I love how they talk about how the AoE of shotguns, hehehe, made me chuckle. I believe Clint Smith says it best though. "Pistols put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotguns with the right load, at the right range, will physically remove a chunk of shit from your enemy and throw it on the ground."
@William Halter how much you want to bet he wasn't up trying to fight him. That b**** is laying on the ground begging for help I can guarantee it. And that's just from birdshot.
Saw a clip of an ISIS execution via shotgun to the back of the head... one of the few times that video games with shotgun gore are actually fairly accurate to their real life counterparts
A story of a blunderbuss: An Amish farmer heard someone going through the family silver, grabbed his blunderbuss, and cautiously moved to the head of the stairs. Observing the thief, he proclaimed "Prithee brother, I mean thee no harm, but thou art standing where I am about to shoot."
My family hunted quail and pheasant heavily. We had paper shells still around when I was a boy. The damn things swell when wet alright, usually just enough to gum up the works. After they dry out they get brittle and will literally break apart from handling. I still get a sour look on my face every time I see a box of old paper hull shells. People collect them for nostalgia's sake but it just brings back memories of pheasants whistling past me while I'm trying to get my A5 to work.
I remember using those paper shells in my Remington 870, maybe 25 to 30 years ago. Remember those damned shells breaking after firing them, and using a long stick thru the barrel to take the metal part out. Shells were very brittle. Last ones I had, I opened them and used the powder to burn ant hills.
We were still using these in my Airborne Infantry unit in 1989 down in Panama. I was stationed down there with the 1st/508th 82nd Airborne (A Co.) and carried one during Operation Just Cause in 1989. Great video.
Wow! I have a 16 gauge 1897 that my daddy bought from someone around 1970-73. It is the best rabbit and quail gun I have ever used. I have had it apart for cleaning many, many times. However, until this video, I had NO IDEA it was a quick takedown model. Once I got to that part of the video I had to stop and go check it out. Sure enough, in two quick moves the gun was in two pieces. I never would have known. Thank you so much, C&Rsenal for this greatly informative video. If my daddy were still alive today, I know he would be just as tickled as I am to have learned this about my shotgun. Again, many thanks!
“I’d rather just duck, grenades are scary.” No truer words have been spoken. Also an interesting note, Sgt. Seibert was a member of the 364th IR of the 91st ID based out of the Pacific Northwest (the area I currently call home). I read his citation yesterday in a copy of the 364th’s WW1 regimental history that is currently housed in the WSU library and archives. I am curious how many Model 97s made it into the hands of the 91st ID during WW1.
i don't know. ducking in a trench with a live grenade seems less useful than loosing one shell on the most difficult, and most important round of skeet in your life.
While I too just love this gun and its appearance, as a resident of Connecticut, I am obliged to get sad every time I see an old American gun marked "Connecticut, U.S.A." from the old giants of Winchester, Colt, Remington any of the dozen other manufacturers who once called my state home. It's like looking back into a golden era that was largely over before I was even born and that was well and truly over by the time I was old enough to get seriously interested in firearms. I distinctly remember first learning about this particular piece and trying to research both it and Winchester's lever guns, only to have my quest for knowledge punctuated by the local news station announcing the closure of Winchester's New Haven plant where all of them were made. Really, it's all quite depressing.
Not to mention, Malloy, and now Lamont, aren't exactly friendly to the idea of civilians owning firearms, therefore putting a hold on these manufacturers marketing to the civilian market. Also, the cost of living in Connecticut isn't conducive to blue-collar manufacturers...who work on the firearms.
Siún Coogan I’m in VA as well. The police chief of my county just fired a cop for holding an illegal wanted by ICE at the scene of a traffic accident for ICE to come pick him up. Apparently fairfax is a “sanctuary county” now, I don’t remember voting for that...
As an interesting addition to this, my Great Grandfather fought during WWI, from 1916 - 1918, fighting on the Somme, Passchendaele, Amiens and finally being wounded in action in late October 1918. He recalled while he was still alive that the preferred weapons for a British Night Patrol in No mans land consisted of pistols, grenades, the trench mace (which was a mace head attached to the British Armys entrenching tool handle), and if one could get hold of one a carbine or two. I can see now how the pump action shotgun could be a useful weapon on that kind of mission, also as a secondary weapon in the jungle (though that is another war). I will always refute its use in an actual trench clearing action though. Great Grandpa made it clear that the king in that situation was the hand grenade. You always defended your bombers he said, we would spot for them, defend their flanks with pistols, riflemen would be stationed to defend them from attack over the top, but the main men in a clearing action were the bombers (grenadiers). It is why if you look at many photos of trenches of any nation during WWI you will often see literally BOXES of grenades under cover stacked at regular intervals, and virtually no shotguns.... Though Great Grandpa also stated not long before he died that some of his officers used to hand out light sporting shotguns for some guys to carry loaded with birdshot. They were to be used to shoot the German carrier pigeons. To my knowledge the British army never specifically issued such weapons for that purpose.... However, these were the days before mobile radios (in 1918 a radio weighed about 2,000 lb and required two trucks to carry it, you aint taking that across the shell torn hell hole of no mans land), when the telephones were (inevitably) cut, that left only two forms of communication, runners, and pigeons. Those birds were prime targets, so it kind of makes sense that some officer made arrangements that shotguns would be carried by some of their troops in order to take them down. EDIT: Actually it left three, the last was prearranged flare shoots, a series of different colours in rapid succession, but they tended to be limited to telling people behind either we are under a major attack, or for artillery to fire at pre ranged and pre arranged positions. So not the kind of thing you could change easily! DOUBLE EDIT: Oh, and remember, this is *Europe*, rain is a fact of life on much of the Western Front!
Other countries used shotguns with birdshot to dispatch carrier pigeons, like you said. Grenades, improvised trench weapons and if possible, handguns were loved. Shotguns were pretty good in WW1 but really shined in WW2, Korea, and modern day.
@@williamflowers9435 yes, blunt objects are simple yet effective; even in today’s modern combat, the rock, brick, mace, and tire thumper is ghastly effective.
Apparently, the Germans had a different view, because they threatened to execute any US soldier who had a shotgun. The American response was that we would execute 10 Germans for every American that they executed. Nobody was executed by anyome. That was back when we Americans had the backbone to back up our troops-unlike these days.
There better come a 10-15min April 1st Blunderbuss episode, Man that things a beauty, and I want to see May with a Pirate Hat firing that thing on the range! (Or on a boat!) ;D
@@TechSgtBerry Why does the gender of an enemy soldier matter? They are still an enemy soldier, and they are still trying to kill you, also they were communists, so who cares.
It is so weird, yet gratifying, finally seeing the Animation for the episode, after spending 4 hours last Thursday night listening to Bruno cut himself on the sharp edges of the loading port. GREAT JOB!!!
When I was with the 118th MP Company (Airborne), in the late 90s - we still had these in inventory, with bayonets. Unfortunately, at the time (not much room for a curious 19 year old Private in that arms room - plus, I was 19...) - I had other things on my mind 😁 - and I only got to handle one briefly. We knew they were antiques, and they were treated in accordance with that understanding. I think I remember the unit turning them in, for final disposition, along with our M-60s... Mossbergs were the new shotgun for combat MP units. I might be wrong about that turn in though... it's been a long time.
We were still using these in my Airborne Infantry Battalion also in 1989 (1/508 82nd ABN INF - A Co.). I carried one during Operation Just Cause. AATW!! 🤜⚡🤛
Many of them were still in use at Ft. Knox in 1991-1994 at MASA then turned in. If I knew what I found out later, I could have swapped them out with new M500s. No one would care if anything they would have been glad. When I was there as NCOIC of guards, I started cleaning them. At the time, it had probably been 10 or more years since anyone had done anything with them other than count them and the mixed brands of shells. I signed for them as 12 shotguns and 100 rounds of 12ga buckshot No SN or make. I'm sure there were a few of WW1 vintage and WW2. 😢
I worked for a US law enforcement agency out west in 1990. We had one of the WWII versions of this in the gun safe, the last of those that had been surplussed to us in the late 1940s. While I was there it was finally condemned and sent off for disposal (read cut up for scrap) since our standard was 870s. I always wondered about it. This video brought back memories.
Truly... Othias and Mae.. May?? This video is a masterclass in gun history.. I've been a fan for many a year now, and your channel NEVER seems to disappoint.. Actually it causes me to be spoiled when I watch other "gun Channels". Wow guys, what a great video.. Thank you for all your hard work and keeping history alive.
Next up on the C&Rsenal bucket list: "some pointless thing that one remembers at all, just another bump in the road I'm sure but this would take until, i want to say 1911 i can't recall"
The sound of shot ripping through the tree foliage around you is enough to make you take cover. Also, there were films dedicated to trying to get troops to not freeze at the sound the mg42.
I would love to see whole bunch of older guns, recently I was watching forgotten weapons colt dragoon history and I would love to see it in more detail, like two hours long :P
My local pawnshop has a very nice example of one of these. Has the bayonet and everything. He wants a few thousand for it. He also just had a brand new out of the box M1D sniper Garand with all accessories. I was shocked when I saw it...
@@mwnciboo so you're telling me the Allies went back in time from world war II into world war I to tell Germany that they don't give a fuck? Or do you mean the Entante?
Its pretty amazing that this is one of the very few Great War weapons that actually became MORE effective in modern times than it was in its contemporary. With modern plastic/brass shells, this thing is a monster. Imagine if they had that back then.
They did have brass shells back then. In fact, long case brass shells being made for shotguns is because of the (frankly overblown, it wasn't as bad as Othais makes it out to be) issue with paper shells.
@@medievalarmorexptert6827 =ewkey3tsYOI You can stop CSing me now. Also, look up Shotgun Forums were guys are giving tutorials on wax coating paper shells and how long it's been done.
Phosphorine? You mean Phosgene right? Though the first gas used was Chlorine. Know how long it took the allies to whip up the first gas mask? 5 days after the first Gas attack on the Ypres... five days.... Sure, it was crude, but it worked. Both sides and all combatants used Gas, including the Americans, the AEF certainly used Gas shells during the Meuse-Argonne. The first actual gas attack was by the French, though to be fair they used a tear agent, so it was a non lethal gas, but they still used it. The Germans were the first to use a *lethal* gas, not the first to use a gas, they were also the first to use it 'succesfully'. While it is certainly very true that the Germans used Gas more than the Entante, that was not out of unwillingness to use it on the Entante side, but down to the fact that the German Chemical industry was the worlds largest prior to the war, so they could simply manufacture more of the damned stuff than everyone else (combined as it turned out). The worst gas was not even the biggest killer, it was Mustard, a blister agent, its a nasty, nasty gas, but so long as you do not breathe it in it is not fatal (though it is painful). That shit was used not to kill, but as an area denial weapon. Not a lot of guys would be willing to trundle through an area that was covered in a layer of mustard gas... fun fact, did you know WWI gas masks were not air tight? As for flamethrowers, the Germans were far, far from the first to use flamethrowers in war. Greek Fire projectors are documented as having been used over 2,000 years ago. Various forms of Naptha based incendieries have been used in seiges since at least that time. The use of flammable liquids in war is probably about as old as someone working out that hey, this fluid burns, we can fling it at Zogs tribe over in the next valley..... Not saying the use of such weapons is not nasty, or perhaps even morally wrong, but in a war like WWI, scruples sometimes get lost in the vicious, brutal nature of the day to day fighting. The first day of the Meusse-Argonne the AEF lost more men KIA than the US military has taken in all the years they have been involved in Afghanistan and Iraq.... And for a single days losses, they were no where near the highest, the British on the First day of the Somme sufferred 19,000 dead alone, and on August 22, 1914, the French army suffered 27,000 men killed in a single day..... To put this into perspective, an estimated 91,000 men were killed by Gas during WWI on all sides, 80% of those deaths were caused by Phosgene or Biphosgene, 91,000 dead is a months fighting on the Western Front...
@@DarkSeraph95 I wouldn't worry about it, I make that kind of mistake at times, I was pretty sure what you meant. I was once giving a lecture and forgot the name of an organism I had been studying for over a decade! Literally had to stand there for five minutes wracking my brains trying to remember something that was as well known to me as breathing :). Sometimes it happens, your brain decides, for whatever reason, that today it is going to embaress you!
"What if it rains?' ...Who cares? Vast majority of shotgun ammo is pretty much Waterproof now. Especially the WaterFowl ammo. Hell, I've hunted in the rain for the past 48 years, and I have not had any problems with Shotgun, Rifle or Handgun ammo. Granted, when I got home I dried off all the ammo I had in bandileer, pouch or pockets. I let my firearms warm up, then I would clean them. Never had a gun rust on me either.
John Garvey I know. I’ve bought & used them. They were still selling them into the ‘70’s. They also made waterfowl ammo that was waxed. But that started in the late 50’s, I believe. Plastic hulls started in the mid to late 60’s
"...dripping with malicious intent..." Love it. My EBS (Evil Black Shotgun) is a Remington Model 31TC with extended magazine tube, "POWer PAC" muzzle brake, and a bayonet. "Because nothing says, 'Go away' like a shotgun with a bayonet." LOL.
I loved this video, great work Othais and Mae. I have an original Winchester Model-12 Riot, and like the Model-1897 Riot have found double-00 buck is best point blank out to between 35 or 40 yards maximum for good effect. Anything past that I top of the magazine with any Foster type slug which give me accurate fire to 100 yards. And if I really want even more accurate long range firepower I use Winchester "BRI" Sabot slugs which will hold inside a 6-inch circle at 150 yards. the Ballistic Reach Industry Sabot was originally developed for law enforcement for Cylinder bore shotguns. Even though when Winchester acquired BRI and their Sabot the box now says for "rifled" chokes, or barrels which is not true, they work superbly because of the tapered tail design. They fly much like a badminton shuttle-cock in that as long as air pressure flows across the length of the projectiles tail section it will fly straight and not tumble.
The markings on BRI boxes ( long since bought out by Winchester) are " True" to the extent that they are indeed excellent accuracy in rifled bbls . From fully rifle bbl they will give one hole groups @ 50yds .
One of the two videos I've most looked forward to since the beginning of this channel. Now, just some prominent pistol that I can't remember the name of.
I think part of the reason for a fair number of fakes on these is that many guys just want to turn a 97 into a trench gun in their own collection, and then that collection eventually changes hands.
ewicander9045 I was thinking the same thing. I’ve been wanting to convert my 97 to a trench gun just so I could have my own fun with it, and never to claim it was the real thing.
Yup, most are imitations and not fakes. There is a very fine difference and even if money is no object, it’s so hard to find the real deal that it’s often easier to make your own even if it was more expensive to do so. Look at retro M16’s with faux lowers usually Bushmasters, with half a brain you can spot easily because semi-auto only.
I'd make one in a heartbeat, and I'd leave the magazine hanger on because I wouldn't be trying to fool anyone, I'd just wanna do some stabby-shootin' and there's no way in hell I'd spend 2k on an old shotgun personally. >__>
I have seen advertised new copies of the 1917 Enfield bayonets and lug and heat shield assemblies, though these dont just slip over the barrel but would require removing the original beat front sight on the muzzle end and properly cutting grooves for the 3 mounting screws in the proper position and depth. It can be done.
I have one that’s a repo riot version i added the Bayonet lug on. I re enact WW2 and everyone lives this gun. With blanks and no recoil slam fire sounds really crazy. I do agree, I have never told anyone its original and anyone who knows anything about firearms will know by looking at it.
I have discovered this channel very late. I love the form of presentation, it's very professional in manner and comprehensive. I love the personal feedback from a experienced shooter which is exactly what is needed as not all of us can access such a array of firearms used during the great war. Thanks.
I love the 97, first shot skeet with one and did well. Used one for about a year no problems. Then I was loaned a model 12, still have that gun "Kirk" named in honor of man that loaned it to me. The "bump" fire great when hunting quail on the rise.
I'm thinking the word might be mostly "subdued"? If I remember any of my history correctly, the last thing you wanted was any Philippine native to be angry with you as it would tend to wind up with you having a very bad day.
I'd have watched this sooner but I had to do the school run. Guys I just want to say that I really love your channel, the time and energy you put into these videos must be huge. Thank you for producing such fantastic content.
In my days (c. 1978), we used #1 Buckshot. for 32 .30 caliber pellets on target. Ithaca Model 37 shotguns without disconnectors [That meant hold the trigger back, it would fire as fast as the user pumped shells into the chamber]. A wonderful shotgun as it loaded and discarded through the bottom port. No shells tossed at your side mate, all went to ground beneath you. Later replaced by the High-Standard Model 10 "Dick Tracy" shotgun.
I'm sad. I suffer off sleep apnea and the smooth voice of Othaias make me fall asleep every time, even when I like the weapon and the history of it. It's pissing me off not being capable of watching an entire video without dozzing off.
In 1965/66 I used to carry a 1897 and 2 M14 mag pouches filled with 00 Buck, as my airplane arm when air dropping to 5th Special Forces Camps. We had a variety of arms in the rigger shed of which an 1897 and a raft of M2 Carbines were available. I never needed it
Okay Othais, I may be a weirdo (and in the extreme minority), but I think it would be terribly interesting to see you do a series of in depth interviews/conversations with some of those primary researches you're talking about after WWI is finished.
I have my great uncles long barreled 1897 in my safe. I would never shoot modern ammo in it but at the same time I don't think I could ever part with it. The sentimental value is strong with this one.
I accidentally used modern ammo with my dad's 1897 when I was a kid. It was 00 Buck too. It didn't seem to hurt it by any metric I could tell. But I wouldn't do it again. It only dawned on me when I was a little older that that might've been a bad idea.
Eh . The 97 was designed expressly for use with Smokeless . The SAAMI pressure standards for 12ga 2.75in are unchanged since the beginning of SAAMI in the mid 1920's ( CIP pressure standards are higher than US , FWIW ) .
I won't presently re- ignite the rifle vs shotgun debate . But IF shotgun fits your needs/ inclinations , the '97 will work as well as anything , plus has a couple of actual advantages .
Personaly, as a canadian, I think those would've been extremely useful in our military's hands. Getting to the trench wasn't the problem. We used a lot of diversion tactics and often performed extremely effective night raids. we invented the ''stormtrooper''. Litteraly, the germans created that type of unit after we used it against them at vimmy (and all throughout the war but seems like when they decided to do it). Othais talks about it in the lewis gun episode if you're curious. We used A LOT of hand to hand were shotguns would have been perfect (close quarters, extreme stopping power and that bayonnet is just... beautiful) though the lucky ones had lewis guns which I'd take over that, but you had one or two guys maximum in one of those teams with that gun, the rest were guards and reloaders. If the guards, who had to defend the gunners while reloading or at any point he wasn't dealing with just the front, had a shotgun? extreeemely effective. Short range, no second shot needed, and plenty of time to reload when your gunner is cleaning up that trench. Plus we excelled in urban fighting, especially in WW2, with mousetrapping getting us in close amoung other tactics. dunno if they had shotguns at that time, though maybe, since we worked with the americans often. Although, yeeeaaah, wicked witch. Paper cartridges just suck. It's such a system killer for such a great system. sad that brass didn't make it.
@@qounqer I'll take that as a compliment XD Also, we almost were XD I'm French-Canadian, we almost joined the American revolution. British government bribed the Catholic church to stop us. Sadly worked^^u
The 12 Gauge is something of a hot topic in Doughboy Reenacting. Some excellent people have poured through just about every photograph in archives and turned up exactly ONE photo of the 1897 at the front. There are more photos of the experimental ''Liberty Bell" helmets in use at the front than these Winchesters. In fact, there are literally thousands of pictures of Privates...privates. Its cool, its fun on the range, but it just isn't a player during WWI.
Excellent video, full of info and history, thank you. I remember using paper shells when I was young hunting with Dad, had some swell in wet weather Mae is my favorite gun gal!!!
I own a 1897 16 gauge hunting model and a 12 Gauge M97 Trench Model. I learned a few more things about them by watching this video. Thank you for making it.
I think one thing you miss in the discussion about effectiveness of the shotgun is even if you don't kill the target immediately a none lethal hit will give you and you buddies a massive advantage in the upcoming melee.
A dense episode with names in the same episode that is only surpassed by a few phrases. Bamnerman.. Browning....Dilbert. Desicration.... A superb episode.
My dad has his fathers Winchester Model 97 trench gun that my grandfather used in WWI. At some point it will be mine and I plan to make sure my kids understand the history and Americana behind it being such a unique piece.
On the model 10, there is an adjustment for keeping the barrel tight into the receiver. Remove the fore end and on the rear face, under the barrel on the connector strap is a screw. The screw holds the slack adjuster. You can actually make the gun feel like one solid piece of metal. In most cases, it will need disassembled and cleaned before you can adjust it.
@@blairbuskirk5460 No, there were solid framed guns which did not allow for takedown. Local pawnshop had 3 1897's only one was a takedown, the other two were sold framed. They also had a beautiful Model 12 takedown that I'm still kicking myself for not buying.
@@blairbuskirk5460 No. I have a solid frame version made in 1898. And in this video, the riot shotgun is a solid frame version. Model 12 are all takedown.
I saw two of these policed up off a battlefield, Nam on DMZ, 66. 00Buck, brass shells. Keep the trigger back and every time the pump came forward it fired. Shuck-a-matic. Deadly at close range. Marines used these in brig's for several decades after WWI. Appeared more like our 870 with side eject.
Mae, If you shoot a '97 fast in moist conditions. you should wear a glove on your pump hand. I was shooting skeet at night on a hot and humid night and my hand slipped off the forearm and the carrier sliced my hand open. I now use a fingerless glove. I love the 97! Keep up the good work you two!
My best friend has one. He got it from his father who came to possession of it from the sheriff's department who gave it to him. It has been cut down, but I don't know who, and it has no bayonet lug. Great show. This show rocks. Just found you folks, and great info on each forearm. Thanks..
I found this tremendously informative! I had no idea the history of the shotgun in combat other than the kick-ass premise behind double 00 buck in the close confines of a trench. I know the germans complained about it at the time. Thanks for the video. Subscribed.
Great job guys. I think I read in WW2 they had alot of full brass left over from WW1. In Korea and vietman the 97 still served but plastic shells were common.Love you site.
Thanks for another great video! Mae did an amazing job in the animation section again! Please keep her in there! Man I wish I could afford the 1895 book. Lever actions are super cool and I love the mechanics behind them. Sadly, I'm a poor college student and cannot afford the $80 price tag even if I know it would be worth it in the long run. Maybe one day I'll be able to buy all the books that you and Ian mention (Or make)... and the guns that they outline. Course, would also have to move out of Maryland in order to be able to own some of the guns, but hey, baby steps. Please keep up the great content. One day I will be able to do my part on Patreon.
I imagine this weapon would have been useful in night patrols due to the lack of night vision at the time. If all you can do is shoot at enemy muzzle flashes then the relative inaccuracy of 00 buck becomes an advantage as an area suppression device. You get 54 random chances to hit an enemy before reloading with 6 (9 pellet) shells versus 5 chances with a standard rifle.
the design of the ergonomics is also different, you point shotguns, you aim rifles. you can point at something you can't see, but it is hard to aim at what you can't.
Othias (and crew): Today I found in a local Pawn Shop a...yep, I am not kidding: 1897 Winchester Trench Gun. It looked JUST like your demonstration one. Thanks yo your episode I knew exactly what to check. Yes, a real one, he even had a paper trail. The price tag of $2999 was probably fair. WELL beyond my pay grade, but at least I got to hold it. Thank you for a WELL DONE episode that as usual contained more information then I could remember (I came back and re-watched it to confirm what I saw today. THANKS! PS: I own a 97 take down I inherited from a grandfather. NICE Gun.
Well about that time to just relax and fall into nice, relaxing, sleep for work... They just released the grand Winchester broomstick episode... What is this sleep you speak.
The practical way to shoot both the Model 97 and 12 in slam-fire is from a low hip-height position. I've done this with both my Riot Model 12 and Field Model 1897. It is quite easy to stay on targets out to 30-yards with a fire shot string of 2-3/4 inch 00-Buck.
Great, Thanks, (yes the sarcasm is on at 11 on the dial) Now, not only do I want a Winchester 1897 shotgun with full brass ammo, I want a book about another Winchester product. And after that? I want an 1895 in 7.62X57R or 30-06. Thanks Bunches!!!!! (yes, I have just ordered the book, My wife is going to be in touch.) I'm pretty sure the only fix for this is all brass shells, OR modern plastic shells. It's just a weapon before it's time. As always I think Mae likes recoil... You should hand her an M1 and see what develops. (my daughter wants to keep my M1 so there's that.) And as always thank you for the best in educational programming.
I literally just finally got my first shotgun last week. It was a 30" 1897 takedown model, manufactured in 1898. I had been holding out until I pulled the trigger on one of these specifically. It is a bit of a mutt right now when it comes to furniture, but I hope to fix that. This seems to happen to me a lot with your amazing channel. I can't wait to see this one.
My one friend owns one of these gems that I got to use as an OPFOR member for an OOBC course at APG, MD. Another SF friend carried one in Iraq. They are sweet weapons. It has always amazed me how Europeans have been more concerned about shotguns than sub-guns. This reticence shows in the Geneva Conventions. Only recently has the US caught up to them in the use of sub-guns for police use.
