I'm from the old school Sir. I appreciate channels like this. Still the owner of my first car. A 1980 Falcon XD 351 which I purchased in 1991. Old school Rules !
I set up an engine for starting just like you did, many years ago (although it was an old v8). The motor ran for a short time , we warmed it up, and stopped it. All good. We came back in a couple of hours to restart it. Boom! The engine exploded out of the rocker cover, blew the oil filler cap off and nearly took my head off as it went by ( upwards to smash a flourescent overhead light) . We found the cause. The carby must have had a slight leak in the needle and seat. The gravity feed of petrol flooded the carby over a period of a couple of hours, draining past the rings into the sump. The vapour fumes in the sump just ignited when we hit the starter. Beware the gravity feed of that nasty stuff petrol, it can bite. Something to think about.
Shit yeah, seen that happen with my very eyes at an auto electrical shop I was visiting in Brisbane when I was a 3rd year apprentice. It turned out to be a cracked diaphram in the fuel pump, just filled thew sump up with fuel when it was running. They shut it down as I got there & then re-fired it when I got out of the car & bang. It blew the sump apart. Nice bang. Thank-you for that point as it is something to be very careful of particulalry in the same scenario as what I just did.
The best way to prime any engine with oil before starting up is to connect a line to the oil pressure sender port and connect that to a container of oil that can be pressurized and force the oil in and around the galleries. They are not hard to make. I have even made them from heavy wall PVC pipe and fittings as you are not putting a lot of pressure into it. Another way was getting an oil pump from a wrecked engine that can be turned by a drill and connect it to the same place on the engine and the suction side to a container of oil and spin it with the drill. The second method is handy to have as I use it to fill gearboxes and diffs when changing oil.
Yep. It is a case of customer knows best, but in this case a mate. Going from what he told me, it was a used cam and I could see that as I fitted it for him and filmed it but the video got screwed up & I hope to somehow salvage it one day. So I say where are the original lifters marked for each lobe. Ah they are in the shed all mixed up. Well best to fit new lifters then which is better than mixing up old ones. At least they are spinning as they should. The engine is a play toy for him so service life is of no concern for him as it is not going into a vehicle, but a fair point to ask the question as it is not within the common teachings to do what I did, but how many people have done it. (plenty) I think I was more interested in the firing up and discovering that the owner through no fault of his, lead me astray a bit to discover a few things that he did not do correctly as you saw, no fuel in the carb & no oil pressure. Simple yet important details that if that was a new motor it would have been considered a very poor start up. It is clear that when a mechanic works with a customer things sometimes don't go as they should but take the customer out and all goes perfectly, funny that.
Well that was a good tip, I put some oil in the oil filter so it won’t be dry on startup, will that help create the suction? Got me worried it won’t work right now.
On many engines filling the filter may not guarantee that the oil gets to the suction side of the gears. Filters are always on the discharge side. The suction side requires lube. We fill the filters to lessen the time it takes to get full pressure.
@@mbsoldschoolrighto, I guess I’m going to take off the oil pump then and do as you suggested. Same 202 engine, I’m about to lower it onto the engine mounts so only a week or so before firing her up.
Yes that's a good idea. My mate just came over this morning & we were talking about the oil pressure failure. He did exactly that, filled the oil filter believing that would be primed. So during the filming when I asked him if it was primed he said yes. Well we know that did not work.
@@oo0Spyder0oo Hold the bus! Holden Red Motor has nonreturn valve paper element filter. With fresh (dry) engine, problem is getting pump to suck AIR up pick up pipe against gravity until oil reaches pump. A wet oil filter makes it virtually impossible for "dryish" (unprimed) pump to push air through ahead of oil. Never allow any Holden Red Six or V-Eight to fire up until AFTER you KNOW oil pump is pumping oil or bearing (mostly cam, then big ends) will be scuffed & damaged drastically shortening bearing life. Here's the procedure: Leave spark plugs OUT. Pour 1 dessertspoon of engine oil into each plug hole so new rings don't tear up bore on initial cranking. You can even leave push rods & rockers out... (optional but not really necessary)... Leaving plugs & rockers out takes the valvespring load off the cam, protecting it & it takes huge load off starter motor allowing crank & oil pump to spin faster to help suck that oil up. Get everything else done. Fit oil pump last & just before you're ready to find oil pressure. Use plain engine oil, just a few drops on the two axles in the oil pump. Install the driven pump impellor gear. Mix 1 desertspoon oil with 1 desertspoon wheel bearing grease in a coffee cup until you have a sloppy paste. With pump open face up pour just enough grease slop into pump & rotate impellors by hand until all teeth are coated forming a fairly airtight seal as they rotate. Never add too much grease! The pump has to push that grease out as oil gets sucked up against gravity. You don't want grease ruining the viscosity of your engine oil as a contaminant. The biggest danger is the pump must force the grease through that paper filter element! Too much grease WILL plug your filter! Bolt cover plate lightly onto pump & bolt pump onto block. Wind filter onto pump with fingertips until filter seal meets pump face, THEN BACK FILTER OFF ONE FULL TURN. This leaves an air gap just beyond the pump for that bastard air to escape as you crank that engine. Leave oil pressure swith OUT! . . . Air must escape there too! Get everything above right. Use the best battery you can get hold of. A truck or 4X4 battery with at least 600 CCAs (cold cranking amps) is best. Crank her over until you see oil escape between the pump & the filter... PUMP IS PRIMED! Stop cranking. Tighten filter. Crank again. See oil exit via oil pressure switch hole & stop cranking. Oil is now pumping through galleries. You must see it exiting that oil pressure switch hole to get confirmation everything is OK. Fit oil pressure switch, pushrods, rocker gear, spark plugs & know with absolute certainty your engine is safe to fire up. Have spent over 45 years in bed with Early Holdens. I love 'em. You take good care of them & they love you back a hundred times more. Best of luck with your engine. I hope she gives you maximum enjoyment. Just watch out for clods with dumb ideas. PS: Filling the oil filter on a fresh (dry) engine is a no no. It's damn near impossible for a high mounted Red Motor oil pump to push air through a wet paper oil filter element. Follow the above proceduce & your little motor will love you for it. If you need help to tune it, leave a reply here. I'll happily guide you through that tricky process too. You can easily tune it yourself.
Holly smokes, that is just way to much work for a simple job. I will stick with what I have been doing for the last 45yrs. In saying that though I think a total amateur will benefit from how you do it, they won't go wrong. I am sorry but I don't agree with your PS statement. The air will push through the filter. There is no evidence anywhere that I know of that says any different. Since I was a tuning specialist for the last 45yrs I think I know how to tune most cars but thanks for your offer of help. Very soon I will be tuning that engine so it should be up your alley to make sure I am doing it correctly.
The lifters bleed down when the engine shuts off. Overnight the oil slowly drains down from the galleries & crankshaft. When you start up in the morning the oil pump has to refill all the channels which takes a few seconds so until then you have loose rockers which will tap & bearings will have no oil so you get bearing rumble. Every engine does it, some are very noticeable.
@@mbsoldschool Yes, that theory is common knowledge and logical, but in 45 years of car ownership, I've only ever heard it on the Holden red motors in both used and rebuilt motors, (no other cars) or of course any engine with a run bearing for example. So my question was more about what in the design of this engine makes it exclusively audible at startup, - probably a hard one to answer, but perhaps using too thicker oil like 20 / 50 that is harder to circulate per design. It's a deep main bearing rumble, nothing to do with rockers or lifters in this case, which make a different sound
well now, that a tricky one & your right I have no single answer. I have not heard bearing rumble that often in a Holden but have in other engines. The longer it takes for oil pressure to come up the more likely you may hear bearing noise. Yeah there are many factors that may contribute to this. Bearing clearances, oil viscosity, oil pump clearances, filter, oil gallery restrictions and maybe a few more if I thought about it. Very unlikely that it is a common thing in the Holden engines because you would think that GMH would have fixed it by the time the HR came out.
Great video’s I’ve never been able to understand why people take chances with first start oil priming ? As a 17yrld boy apprentice in the 80s I observed a lot of Holden in particular ring and bearing jobs go wrong on start up with oil pressure so my very first engine rebuild I decided to avoid all that so have prime pumped into the oil gallery before start up (with a hand or air style prime pump very easy to buy or make) every engine I’ve ever had apart ever since or into the future cheap insurance and no chance of damage a no brainer you would think ? JA
what are points ? just kidding, did an old mallory twin point dist recently, on the old faithful hp 179 with the statatory yella terra head & 30/70 solid cam,,,, was a blast from the past
If you put a new cam and lifters in it should you not have run it straight up to 2000 odd rpm and run at that for 20 mins or so to run the cam in so you don't wipe the lobes off the cam. I was told this by an engine rebuilder when they overhauled my Mustang 289 engine. Interesting. Cheers ian
it was an old cam put into an old engine that is not going into a car. It will be a test engine for the owner so he can play with different things. The cam won't wear out during it life time of probably 20-30 hrs. What your engine builder told you was 100% correct. If not done correctly the lobes will wear out in 20K
That might be correct for some but.....EH/HD (149 & 179) were 5 degrees, HR (161 & 186) were 7deg, HK/T/G quotes 6 to 8 & HX/Z can be either 3 or 5 depending on transmission. Yes I have all the factory books.
Yeah there are a few different specs depending on engine/transmission combos. I sold my early books on tuning specs & only have LC torana on, HK on & VC commodore on. Without specifics they range from 3 to 10 deg. I must have fluked the 5 deg spec on this 202 from HQ. But yeah for those following the comments you should just check the specs of your engine. But & there is usually a but. These specs are from the era when we used leaded fuel. 50 yrs on almost all engines built now have more compression thanks to multiple shave jobs. Initial timing may require some tweaking in certain circumstances & centrifugal advance may require re-adjustment. It is a suck it & see these days but if you stick to standard specs for initial fire up, that will be satisfactory until the motor is fully run in, then you can play with timing settings. Thanks for clarification on timing John.
Um, I don't know what to say to that. I had to check that you commented on the right video. I think you need to do some more reading on the subject as that is how most mechanics static time a points ignition system. My mate is hooking up a radiator to the engine & I will return with more videos covering, centrifugal advance & I will use a timing light to confirm the static timing in this case is perfect. How to adjust a carby is also on the agenda. I hope you don't come back with the mixture screw has nothing to do with fuel supply at idle. ha ha ha only joking.
@@mbsoldschool Yes use a timing light , you can crank it over with our spark plugs in, just a lead with a plug on it on the engine, adjust it and the timing will be accurate, iv been doing that for over 50 years of engine building
Each to their own. I have been static timing engines for 45 yrs when the distributors have been removed or after engine re-builds and it is always within 1 deg. On new engines I also primed oil pressure so I don't have to crank it unneccessarily like you have been doing for the past 50 yrs. I like the engine to start straight up & know all is good for 20 mins of cam run in time.
