I have the 20 year old super detailed loco driven model. Runs great, looks great, couples close, and bits don’t fall off…..no way I would pay 200 for this….
The super detailed model (not the Railroad version) is pretty robust compared to other Hornby locos of that area. Plenty of them knocking around second hand now. With all the Black5 variants they’re ripe for further detailing and customisation. Much better value.
I’ve seen both Sam’s Trains and Proper Chuffed’s videos previously so yours was an extremely useful corroboration. I’m tempted to buy a BR version once they’re released but now know what to expect. Unexpected highlight is the 1930s style song - pure genius!
Hello Rob! Blimey, really sorry to see you also had trouble with this, you made a great point about fitting DCC, something I didn’t think of at all when I did my initial impressions of it. Very interesting to see the performance disparity between the two systems, in fact, rather shocking. I think you did an incredible job as always, honest and upfront with your experience and always so well produced. Great video and thanks for sharing your thoughts! 🙌 Hylt
Glad you are satisfied with the black 5 now. For me, since I run on analogue, I would like to see Hornby design good basic mechanisms that do not rely upon DCC to make them work properly. I am convinced that many of Hornby's locos, since the N15 & B12's have used designs of motor & mechanisms that only work well with DCC There are plenty of us who choose to run on pure DC. Thanks for the informative review.
While I was never planning on buying one simply due to cost, it really is a shame seeing a model that looks so beautiful be absolutely riddled with issues. I didn't even realize that the lamps could be repositioned and had been wondering how I could go about customizing my models to implement something similar. Almost changed my mind on eventually picking one up from the Lamp feature alone until I saw the issues with it.
It’s not the first time Hornby have done this and it won’t be the last, their second generation APT class 370 was rushed out with a few issues, A few years later Hornby addressed them, such a shame the issues weren’t sorted on the second run, when customers spend their hard earned money on something that should be perfect they have the right to be angry and call it out, most do because they’ve approached Hornby and get little or no help, then some individuals start calling them Hornby bashers! I don’t hear all those Ford transit customers with damaged engines because of a poorly designed engines whom complain get called Ford bashers! Only this Hobby has individuals who try to make cheesed off customers feel bad because the manufacturer is more concerned with profit than customer satisfaction, shame on them.
Nice review. I still have one on order and will tighten the crank pins (it is hardly the first model to need that) and clean the electrical connection, prior to getting frustrated with it. Not sure about those 'moveable' lamps though...probably leave as is.
Thanks for the review. You changed two variables. Cleaning the loco / tender contacts, and adding DCC. So which was the change that really improved the running. I would like to have seen a test with the contacts cleaned first as the poor contacts might have caused the slow down on curves and stall on the points?
Mate, that song is an absolute banger and you should publish a dedicated music video just so we can enjoy it again. I'm sure many of us would love to know more about your music production process too, but sometimes it is best to keep us guessing. I'm glad the model worked out for you in the end, and it sure does look great on a shelf, but I just wouldn't be satisfied with it the way that it is. +1 sub, looking forward to the next song!
All these credible, poor reviews must be a serious worry for Hornby. The Black 5 has always been a flagship model for them, and to have this many issues on so many examples is extremely damaging. I have an older version that I am very happy with, so I'll be sticking with it.
The song was excellent - maybe you can upload it to the decoder to play at the station. I have this loco, it is a beautiful model and has run perfectly out of the box using a 21 pin decoder. Having watched all the reviews I guess I am very lucky and it will become a collectors item...
The regime at Hornby has changed. Hopefully in the future there will be more emphasis on good, basic engineering and preparation for DCC, as you cover in your summary.
I have the steam generator one on pre-order, hoping that they fix the issues before that one is produced. From what I've seen these are manufacturing errors which should be simple enough to resolve. Just a point on your comparison model, it was the Railroad model and not the previous super detailed model, which I think still stands up very well.
Same here, seems running on DCC makes a big diff and is more suited to the motor. This is the second review where the rear drive pin has fallen out so will be checking that and maybe adding a miniscule drop of Loctite to the threads. Not great that the feature of changing lamp positions doesnt work but at the end of the day I wont be touching mine (I had suspected the factory had glued them in, maybe because they were instructed to do so?) They should have been supplied in a separate bag if they were concerned they would fall out in transit. I will be keeping my pre-order in as I have no Black 5 and the detail on this (especially the cab with flicker on DCC) far exceeds the previous model IMHO. If the loco-tender connection causes issues, I will resolve that (hard wire or change to different connector)
First time I’ve came across your channel, great video and nice balanced arguments, interesting sound track too, What’s your final plan with the big light up hole on the front?
I guess many of us model railroad enthusiasts are super happy that those old models exist. They've withstood the test of time, still run smoothly, can be repaired much more easily ... they are also AFFORDABLE on the used market ... and the few "lacking" details, who's ever gonna notice them in real life ? I loved that story in the begin where that bit of plastic broke off and then no one would ever know where it's supposed to go ...🤣 that should tell us that there's a point where adding even more details gets totally pointless!
All the fine detail is well and good if you are just going to display it, but once the loco is on the layout and running none of it is visible. A Railroad version is just as good as far as I'm concerned !
Worth watching if only for the brilliant song - no seriously the rest was good too. Seeing that Sam listed almost the exact same faults in his review, Hornby are extracting the waste products out of their customers. And to think that when I was a kid I bought a brand new Triang-Hornby Britannia for a fiver - yes of course we've had inflation since 1968 and the models are better now (if they work), but the same could be said for the car industry and by my reckoning a basic Ford Cortina (actually a Mondeo now - although recently out of production) should therefore cost around £70,000.
I wonder if Hornby may see this and act on this .Believe me I do not want to see Hornby die the UK loss another iconic thing like Meccano tell me what it would take to bring back manufacturing back to the Uk. British train made by brits in Britain.
Would be interesting to see a breakdown of the production costs of this model,maybe reducing the cab detail and improving the build would give them a better, cheaper product
I don't know if you have noticed but the centre outer motion is slightly out of adjustment and moves too much. Compare it with the left side and you may see what I mean. Or, compare it with another loco. Hope that makes sense.
It doesn't matter how nice a loco looks if it doesn't run reliably. And at the price it really does need to be perfect. If 2 reviewers (probably more but I've seen 2) have similar problems it's far from perfect. Hornby has to address these quality issues including making it clear to the factory NOT to use glue on the lamps. I think I might make do with the old model until there's an assurance the QC issues have been fixed. Thanks for the video and love the song!
Shocking design and build quality. I can never understand how Hornby can't avoid these amateurish problems from ending up in their designs and passing QC. Makes it all the harder to justify paying the higher costs of modern models.
Hi mate I hope you are well For the issues it best reporting it straight to hornby. Email Martyn Weaver or Carl Hart and tell them your issues. I believe that they is some issues with this batch. Mine had no issue am happy with mine on dcc ready. I've ran it alot. I understand that people can only review what they get. Keep safe ARP
Good review, pity you didn't try it on DC after cleaning connection. You are more generous after talking to Hornby than most, after talking to Bach,Hby,Accurascale, at exhibitions, I take what they say with a huge pinch of salt. None of them will admit to problems with well reported issues. The only ones who were concerned were Cavalex, maybe they may do a steamer.
Hi Rob, such a great choice of end title music… oh Hornby you don’t disappoint!! No surprise this “ultimate” black five has fallen very far on the pedestal. Rob remember to add the cost of the decoder to the market price. To get the possible beat it’s now about £260. After cleaning the tender coupling did you retest without the decoder; just analog again? Hope to hear more positive reviews, you and Sam’s Trains have the same problems… what are the chances… thankyou for yet another honest review and glad to see you didn’t have to go through sending it back. But at what additional cost? Wish you all the best, looking forward to a railway room update 😀 Marc from Leighton Buzzard
Ive had the side rods pop off like that on 2 engines. Actually 3. One of them multiple times. Of course it was my fault, as i removed them and didnt put them back in properly
As an American, my models have to traverse the perils of both Royal Mail and the USPS, so when a model arrives with parts off, that is somewhat expected. If it is simple to fix, then it is annoying, but I wouldn't complain. What I get more often are models with all of the details in place, but a massive amount of glue, or models with flaws in the paintwork. Both of which are not repairable.
In my opinion you should run the loco in on the track, not on a rolling road, part of the running in process is running around bends etc, However in your case it is a bad runner, as was Sam's
I've seen Sam's video and I am very glad I didn't buy it. However, I still want to give this model a shot when the smoke version comes out. Though, I will travel to the UK in November for holidays and I wanna see it running first before buying. Issues aside, what kind of banger is this song? Absolutely amazing.
I'm really sadden by this loco, it looks fantastic, but with the cost and the issues I just can't justify getting one (or the Caprotti version). Especially since I don't have a layout at the moment so I wouldn't be able to test the locomotive.
It's a shame you changed two parameters at once: DCC and cleaning the connector. Now we'll never know which solved the stalling problem. If it was cleaning then Hornby has a design flaw - self-wiping gold plated contacts would have solved that problem (their design engineers probably did not grow up in the age of relays!).
At 14.04 look at the angle of the rear connecting rod to the rest of the motion. What a shame more cheapness in technology letting us down, but at a high price. Let's get back to basics and start again Hornby.
Multiple Units and diesels have had directional lighting for well over a decade. Why only now are we seeing it on steam locos? Surely it would make more sense for the lamps to have the LED inside and a simple magnetic connection to transfer power from loco to lamp?.....my wireless mouse can charge like that so......its not like its an impossible technology.
Agree, the metal is the suspect. Very strange, I suspect the cleaning solution is removing corrosion rather than dirt. Manufacturers usually use gold contacts to eliminate this issue. It happens on some cars too, pull the plugs out and recoonect a couple of times and the corrosion scrapes off.
There was a much more superdetail 2003 comparison available for the Black 5. The 5112 version you’re comparing against is a 1970s tooling, which was more recently put in the Railroad range.
Yes, apologies, I picked up on 2009 as being the last time Hornby "released" a Black 5 model, but that was just an upgrade and as you say that was a very old tooling where they changed the motor and added a DCC socket. The 2002/04 tooling would have been a better comparison as it was main range and still listed in 2021. Maybe just ignore the comparison section...
@@LittleWicketRailway I can't understand why they needed to upgrade that one as it is a lovely model. I have the sound fitted version and it is a great runner.
I really want one but I also live in the states so if things go awry getting a replacement would be adding extra cost to an already expensive model plus the turn around time so I'm on the fence...
Personally I'm going to wait for some of the other Black 5 variations to be released and see what the reviews for those are like and if they have the same issues. Even then I may wait until they start appearing on the second hand market for more sensible prices.
having interest in both USA and Brittish models is is suprising how complex and inconsistent the brittish models are. The US all have clip off body (or the coupler screws hold the body on), snap apart gear boxes, all use common gears & motors (within the same brand) and parts that are available. The British models are all different, with various connectors, pick ups, motor position and orientation, gears and many unique parts that are impossible to find. The internals just need to work and can be the same in every model (like the old triang models)
hi, great video, i'm hanging on to my Triang locos, just fed up with latest locos breaking down all the time. its just not good enough,why don't the clowns enforce proper qualitycontrol ?
Just bought this loco and ran it this morning. Had the same issues as you and Sam. Stops on curves. Definitely a connection problem. The tender to loco conecter almost certainly the problem. It's going back. A pity really as i think it's a superb looking model.
My belief is to let others rush in, let the problems be ironed out, then I’ll make a purchase. It’s a lovely looking model, but Hornby certainly need to sort out the issues of quality control. The lost connecting rod issue could easily be sorted with a tiny drop of thread locker on the screw threads, or slightly more expensive for Hornby, put reverse threads on the screw, as the direction of rotation may continue to make the screws unwind.
Hi, good honest review, I’ve seen some positive and negative reviews, it’s a shame these things happen to customers especially when they spend lots of money on these trains with extra features, I can quite honestly say I haven’t had any issues with my Bachmann locomotives or rolling stock, I don’t believe Bachmann have all those extra details on their steam locomotives where as their diesels are superb, the occasional rattling motor cradles on some models with rattling speakers has been mentioned in videos in the past, I don’t think it’s a bad thing to post problems with brand new locomotives no matter who the manufacturers are, this hobby has great following, I’m still waiting for you to post the Zero1 history video.
Maybe it’s time for Hornby to move there production back to the uk where the quality control would be up to British standards. Modellers wouldn’t mind paying for a quality product instead of being ripped off
Damned if you do damned if you don't ree the close coupling, it does look closer than the old, too close and the complaint would swing to it not going round a radius 2. This is a lot fairer than sams take, if only because it takes reality into account on numerous occasions and doesn't just bait with drama.
I`ve just done a Vid On a Hornby A3 Lemberg, The first thing to greet me, sliding it out of the box was an unknow piece of black moulding then the Steam dome fell on to the Table. There general build quality does not reflect the price there asking.
Ah so it seems unfortunately yet again another new model that Kohler promised would be the "Ultimate" model of all time has completely failed to deliver in that regard and I am not at all surprised by this. Frankly I'm glad he left Hornby, all the personal projects such as this, the APT-P, TT Scale, Dublo etc were all his own "wishlist" of things he wanted before he left which just shows how much he monopolised the brand and just absolutely ruined it as a whole. If this was my model I'd be sending it straight back for a refund, I'd not even care for a replacement knowing the fact it would probably arrive just as broken if not worse!
I'm not sure Simon can be blamed for the quality control on this, he was gone long before it left the factory. Also, rumour has it that TT is doing ok and I really like my APT-P (the released version).
Simon isn't the blame for the quality control, but rather the way he moved Hornby as a brand. He's just made so many odd decisions such as the SteamPunk nonsense which are literal shelf sitters. Also the APT-P I have is okay for the most part but it's incredibly half-baked and the quality is not amazing either. One of the capacitors/Light PCBs in one of the coaches completley blew and I had to solder a replacement. The first batch suffered from derailment problems too.
Due to the numerous issues with this model, plus the lack of flywheel, the low presence of die cast, I had her stricken out from my shopping list. Märklin price with Wish quality, it's a no-go for me. I have put out my old Black 5 from storage for a running session, and I'll stick with her until someone else than Hornby manufactures a better model. Not pretty with tons of gadgets, but she runs. And it is one of my first OO model (the first was a Bachmann GWR 0-6-2 tank). By the way, I am waiting for another 4-6-0 to be sold, the Roco BR 38. Twice the price of this one (announced around the 400€ mark) but you have zero issues with Roco models.
Well thats not the case, I foolishly bought a Roco BR 108 that failed totally in less than 2 hours, it was returned to Roco who couldn’t repair it and sent it back after 5 months and said repair it yourself we don’t have any parts and now refuse to communicate. Roco have to be the worst company in model railways. Zero customer care and poor engineering. The loco in question was deleted and re engineered with alternative motor and transmission because they admitted a design flaw. Existing customers are ignored and now have a £300 paperweight.
And I’ve just caught up on the kleedham RU-vid channel - like me he’s in Canada - who has the same trouble and has packed his up and sent it back. That’s a pretty expensive proposition from Canada. So I wonder just how much this is going to end up costing Hornby.
Chinese production items has always been to a “just enough” and to a wholesale price criteria. However, over the last months, the “quality” of Chinese made items has become much worse. Not only for a small model locomotive but for all things in general. They now hold a trade monopoly on many items so now be wary of any item of Chinese made origin.
You're right, there was a 2002 main range tooling that was upgraded in 2004 and last appeared in the range in 2021. That would have been a better comparison. Technically the last time that Hornby released a Black 5 model was 2009, but that was upgraded RailRoad version in the video, but it's based on the 1987 tooling.
The concept of using the drawbar between the locomotive and tender is not a new idea by any means. I know that Walthers and Life Like were using a similar mechanism on their steam locomotive models over where I live in the United States. Theirs was a 6-pin configuration, and it had a very different profile to the Hornby connection. I have a few locomotives in my collection with that kind of connection, including one of their old USRA 0-6-0s.
Having watched a few reviews of this model there does seem to be a pattern of issues with it. Poor tender-to-loco connection, loose pins on the connecting rods and loose bits of detail. For the price they cost it's not acceptable and whilst it's good that both you and Sam have been able to sort them out you shouldn't have to. However as Hornby said people need to give them feedback in order for them to rectify issues with the Chinese factories, so thank you for bringing it to their attention. I believe Hornby use a variety of factories in China, so if one consistently produces sub-standard models they can address this with them or stop using them if there's enough negative feedback. I'm sure Hornby are also frustrated with these things as it reflects on them. I don't think the new connection itself is the problem. I have eight models with Hornby's new connection: An A1 'Flying Scotsman', 2 P2s, 'Thane of Thife' and 'Prince of Wales' and 5 A4s. So far I haven't had a problem with any or heard of anyone else having issues with the connection either except with the Black 5. That suggests something about the connection is slightly off on this particular model. Perhaps the fit/tolerances are fractionally off or it's made in a different factory? As you say hopefully if Hornby keep getting feedback on the issues with the Black 5 they may address that in future versions. Currently I have two old tooling Hornby black 5s, not the Railroad on,e but the slightly more detailed versions: 'Ayrshire Yeomanry' in BR black and the other is part of the 'Going Home' train pack in LMS black with red banding which includes three high detail LMS coaches. I got both second hand on Ebay, boxed and mint and together they cost £198 inc P&P. So two locos and three coaches for slightly less than the new tooled black 5 Of course they don't have as good detailing, lights, firebox flicker, etc. But on the other hand they're good reliable runners. I might consider getting one of the other versions of the new tooling depending on reviews of those when they're released, but for the moment will stick with my old reliable ones.
I am no Hornby hater or Fan boy and believe the hobby does need Hornby as it is a name that everyone knows and usually the starting point for people entering the hobby. But if you are going to announce the " Ultimate " model then you have to deliver otherwise you are setting yourself up to be shot down, I would have expected the ultimate model to have more die cast parts, a stay alive , good running on DC as well as DCC and I would have thought the tender to loco connection would have been fully tested before production. I would call this model a standard level model rather than ultimate when compared to say the Accurascale & Dapol Manor which are priced lower than the Hornby offering . I feel they are behind the competition in quality and innovation . Cheers Kev
Hi. Apologies if I missed it. But did you try the loco on DC after cleaning the contacts? And before fitting a chip? If it runs awful still without a chip. No point in purchasing a loco for analog uses. As for parts dropping off and tape etc. No excuses. The pin, that could have been a disaster. I will not be buying one. Sadly.
No, sorry, I didn't try it on analogue again after cleaning. A few people have asked for this, so it may require a short follow up video. I only have the extremely basic Hornby analogue controller. A more sophisticated feedback controller might do better.
I bought a Piko DR 01.5 with the same style/similar tender drawbar arrangement about 15 years ago so it’s not a new idea, it worked great until it broke, ended up hardwiring the locomotive and tender permanently together. I used to be in the trade and our shop was one of the network of Hornby service dealers that they used to list with all the train and scalextric sets. We used to dread the first day back into work after Christmas as we knew we’d spend most of the day repairing or replacing lots of locomotives and cars with the latest gimmick that Hornby had developed that year but not thoroughly tested to make sure it worked properly and that was back in the days when Hornby products were manufactured in the United Kingdom, not this Chinese made rubbish!
exactly ! chinees stuff: 1 in 50 working is a success !! That's how the "red" think... just 2%. Imagine they start a war with just the same 2% hahahahaha !
I feel, given the price of these, they should be in good condition out of the box. I don't mind reattaching parts in general, but with the price of these models, they should be manufactured better and packaged in a way that protects the model better. If you bought a car and a bit of trim fell off you'd take it back and wouldn't try to just "refit" it. We shouldn't put up with this sort of poor quality on such expensive models. Given your model, plus the 2 Sam reviewed, it looks like there are more with issues than without.
I don't think it's intentional. Everything will slow down to some degree on curves, but shouldn't be as much as mine was in the video. A DC feedback controller would do a better job, I was using a very basic controller.
To me it just seems like massive under delivery by Hornby - just keen to grab retailers’ and customers’ money. Of course being made in China (and we all know what that means) maybe we should all have much lower expectations!
@@LittleWicketRailway They are. Jenny Kirk has done a review of the EC Black 5 and she scored it 49.8/50. I believe that there is another loco proposal but EC are keeping very quiet about it. They are doing a WD 2-10-0 in OO gauge though.
Okay, I was under the impression that Sam's model was a fluke. This just shows that it was no fluke. I hope Hornby will improve the model in the future, because this is not worth it. Sadly. I wanted it to be good too. With regards to slowing down in curves on analogue, this is normal and expected behavior of a motor that is not under "cruise control". The DCC decoder detects if the motor slows down, and speeds it up to match the set speed step. That is why you do not see this slowing down on DCC. Analogue requires you to speed it up if it slows down on curves. My guess is the loco is designed with digital in mind. It has happened before, that the manufacturers rely on the decoder compensating for poor running conditions. Which is not totally without justification, but it does hurt the performance on analogue. Love the song! 👍
Hornby QC is awful at the moment. Out of my last 4 locos, 2 have been returned faulty and a 3rd was also faulty but repaired by me . . . after causing a great deal of frustration. At today's prices this is not acceptable and personally I think any loco that is a substandard runner should by default be returned for replacement or refund. When I returned my last one a few weeks ago I could not get a replacement as the one remaining in stock also turned out to be a dud when tested. The retailer informed me that 5 out of the 10 they received from Hornby were being returned to them as faulty stock. A 50% return rate on some batches tells me that Hornby are not serious about quality.
