To be fair, these guys didn't seem like they had a lot of fire experience. You mentioned kinks, which is important to correct, but if they had utilized better hose advancement techniques and been a bit more aggressive, the kink problem fixes itself for the most part. We always trained that the first coupling was right there with the nozzle before entry. That way you always had at least 50 feet of hose that would go in unimpeded. My pet peeve was a bunch of guys blocking the doorway feeding line hand over hand instead of just bringing a nice fat loop and getting in there. One guy can easily bring 20 feet of hose with him on a 1 3/4. It's all about efficiency of movement. The front door is always going to be the most reinforced door of the house so bring your irons that you don't embarrass yourself. Save your old school techniques for old and weak doors. Agreed on that roof vent. Accomplished nothing. Been better to give those guys some hooks and put them to work inside for sure.
One kink fixer I’ve always used. Should have mentioned it. What is the quick open and shut nozzle maneuver that hammers out most kinks, when you’re at the doorway, getting ready when the line is being charged. No doubt the chauffeur also had very low pressure. I concur with your hose management here too, however, this is a rural area with limited experience, volunteers and multiple young guys. In this case, I’ll give them a pass.
1. What is the threat? Combustion! 2. Where is the threat? The rooms that have flames shooting out the windows. 3. What is the fastest and safest way to protect victims? Eliminate the threat! 4. How do you accomplish that? Apply tank water through those windows. 5. How will that pritect the victims? By instantly lowering interior temperatures by 1000 once you eliminate the flames which stops extension and the threat of flashover. 6. Why not focus on search and rescue first? If you THINK about it, S&R takes a lot of Time! In that time the fire is growing and threatening the victims and entering firefighters. Firefighting really isnt that difficult if you just prioritize, and heroics always takes TIME which victims don't have!
Exactly, while guys are masking up, take that time to "soften the target," through that front window. Will make it more tenable for possible victims and interior fire attack/search crews. This doesn't take long and doesn't require alot of water, but the benefits of doing so can be huge. Great to protect those stairs for 2nd division egress, but also even better to throw ladders around the perimeter when able. As far as vertical ventilation goes, what if you read the smoke and building and recognize that a backdraft is imminent? 🤷♂️
@JB91710 In a backdraft situation? How are you going to open it up to apply that water without risking that smoke explosion? It's just waiting on that breath of fresh air. This and potentially knee wall spaces are the only situations I believe vertical ventilation can be beneficial.
If radio traffic stated Victim was out, then stop that Scenario. When pulling up to Flames shooting out the front windows, (soften the target) the best tool is the fastest tool (the Deck Gun) Master Steams have excellent knockdown power with stack tips. This will give your Personnel a few seconds to mask up and begin Interior attack. Big Fire Knock it Down Outside and then Go In.
@@wbwayne8887 In a general situation where the windows haven't been broken yet, you determine where the fire room is, break out the windows and immediately apply water. No waiting. For hidden fires like walls, knee walls and attics, you extinguish all visible material as you go through the house and vent windows. Then you open the walls and ceilings just enough to fog the space with water. All firefighting takes is common sense and logic combined with grade school science, and a strong and responsible work ethic. As you said, you just can't add ventilation and not apply water but Vertical Venting wastes time and manpower, is an unnecessary risk and doesn't even come close to accomplishing anywhere near what opening windows can.
I’ll comment on the kicking the door. I worked with a guy who fell through a floor when his momentum carried him through the door after kicking it open facing forward. Because of that I won’t kick a door facing forward (at least not without someone holding onto me). Like you said though, use your tools.
The other thing I should’ve mentioned is donkey kicking or the shoulder put pressure on the wrong areas of the door. Do you want is much of your impact as close to the locking mechanism as possible
Two Chief officers (white helmets) to open the front door with no tools? Wasn't that a ladder company parked right in front of the house and they don't come out of the truck with their tools? The first guy at the door could have used his nozzle to break the window in the front door and reached in to unlock it.
Why is the firefighter (the kink guy) outside in the back of the house wearing his mask and wasting air??? You don't need your Scott pack to move hose outside.
@@TransmitThe1075 The "kink guy" as you call him was wearing a red helmet so one could assume he was an officer, perhaps a Captain. If so where was his radio? Also did he really think that the engineer could hear him, through an air mask from 100 feet away, asking for more pressure??
100% agree re the roof...no benefit to going up there. Pull ceiling in the primary fire room, take in an attic ladder and go up it to visually inspect the attic space, and put a PPV fan at the door to start pushing out the smoke as you hit hot spots. Simple and easy.
My early years in the fire service, the area my department served had a lot of what’s called split level homes. This house is a split level. Through the front door will be steps going to the upper floors, and either right or left to the lower floors, usually a living room. Around that would be another staircase to the lowest level. That’s where the utility room, furnace, hot water tank etc were located. Upper floors generally were kitchen and bedrooms. Lower level was generally a den type room. This looks like an upper floor master bedroom from looking at the location of the heavy fire. You go in the front door and up the steps to access the fire. Split levels were a tough fire especially if it started on the lowest level. Since this was vented already, two 1,75” or one 2.5” would give a good knock down. Since the garage isn’t involved, it’s a good bet the lower level isn’t affected yet. Just my two cents worth. I was a firefighter/ EMT for 48 years, both civilian and military.
we were always taught to take what it takes to do the job when you get there, force entry, tools, wet stuff on red stuff nozzle. we were aslo always taught to kick backwards, less chance of injury and just as much force if not more than forward.
An argument for sure can be made about vertical ventilation. In the case here I would agree that its too little too late as the fire is pretty much out. UL testing has shown that a properly timed and placed vertical ventilation hole is the best at quickly venting smoke and hot gasses from the structure. Again perfectly placed and timed the key words. Some departments have moved away from them all together, some only when needed such as when high smoke and heat environments exist. Others still practice routinly such as Stokton FD does. I think it all comes down to personnel, training, as well as local building construction.
I agree with your thoughts here. However, as you state the UL testing shows, it has to be done at a key moment. So I’m betting that 95% of the time, it’s the wrong time. But more importantly, most departments don’t have the resources to send the truck company to the roof when multiple other priorities need to be taken care of as soon as humanly possible. In example, forcible entry, horizontal, ventilation, search, pulling ceilings, etc. etc..
I'm sure they made entry from the charlie side because that's where the rescue was, and rather than drop the line and pull another they went with it. That said this looked like it might have had a wind driven component and a pretty strong charlie to alpha flow path, so whether by luck or judgement, I think the Charlie side attack was a good call. I'm gratified to see that they didn't even try to attack the fire until the life safety problem was solved, or more resources arrived. All in all, this department did an above average job on this fire.
Hi, suspect the rescue was made prior to or on arrival of the fire department. Would be great to hear someone confirm. Though the newspaper article says she was rescued by police and neighbors. Regarding Wind, I didn’t see conditions, suggesting there was higher than normal wind.
In my area we would call this a raised ranch. A split level would be an entry on the main level that has the Kitchen, dinning room and living room. Then stairs(4 or 5 steps) up to bedrooms and bath. Then off the kitchen are 4-5 steps down to family room and garage. Then steps down to a basement from there. Total of 4 levels.
My first thought is that while the fire is located more out the front to back side of the left side of the home that they could've ran lines to the left of the home instead of using so much line to actually get into the back doorway of the patio . Secondly , Why wasn't a truck using its water deck gun if they didn't feel like using more lines ?
I have a lot of these types of splits in my area and just did some renovation on one last week with almost the same design. The layout is most likely a living/family room to the left at the top of the stairs and then the dining area in the BC corner. The kitchen is where its suggested and then the upstairs hallway goes right, past the bathroom in the rear and the master bedroom in the CD corner. The AD corner is another bedroom oriented somewhat transverse with the door at the end of the hallway and another bedroom on the A side between the stairs and that second bedroom. The lower level is usually open to the back with an exterior door under the deck and to the left is usually a smaller bedroom or office with the window as seen. On the right is the garage and in my area its extremely rare to see one where the lower level wasn't finished.
I would've stretched to that A side window, knocked it down and then through the front door and to the left to finish up. They still did a good job. I'm just a big fan of hitting seat of fire ASAP when it's obvious where it's at.
It appears this fire was put out with two hoses, one in the front and one in the back. It would appear based on the number of fire trucks and the number of fire fighters, they should have had more hoses available sooner. It is hard to tell from the picture but it appears they parked the pumper next to the hydrant down the street . They then pulled the hand lines across the neighbors lawn to the backyard. Why place the pumper closer to the house? Simple hydraulics says you would have better pressure and flow. I am not a firefighter. I have, however, worked on the design of fire systems for oil tankers. Take a closer look at the firemen on the ladder. Three on one ladder at the same time? No one at the foot of the ladder making sure it isn't slipping.
Red helmet should be grabbing that hose coming up the stairs and coiling it on the deck. Second line could have come in the front for a basement search.
Hey, so at the end, about opening up the roof. We had a fire on my department where the attic space was about 4 feet tall but not a good attic door to go up. So during overhaul, we opened the roof and found more fire. That's the only time i can really see going up after the majority of the fire is out.
Yes, I think the FDNY policy works, which is going to the roof of single-family. Peaked roofs is not a priority. That said yes, you have some hotspots you can’t get to a certain location at some point messing around up there is perfectly fine. I would advocate that 99% of the time you can get away with pulling ceilings are getting into the attic from internally.
I started watching your videos but you're introduction and everything you have to explain it's too long just get to it. (Keep up the good work good educational)
In regards to the struggle with getting the front door open here. Sometimes things are over complicated. How about simply breaking the glass and reaching in to manipulate the locks? I wasn’t there obviously, but I see simple things get overlooked sometimes on fire scenes. Keep it simple. Maybe this situation didn’t allow for it, I don’t know.
As you ran the video, I saw the Chief's Car. Probably the first on seen with EMS. Doing the 360, finds the victim outside on the ground with PD and tries to find out if anyone is in side. My guess is someone ordered the first due to bring a line to the back and make entry to the fire room. Yes most of the time kick the front door, I think this was one of those times the Charley side was the better choice. Even if it was after the rescue, others trapped? Let the second due take the Alfa side. The victim went out the Charley side, go in on that side and start the primary search and knock down. Good Job All!
My one question to you is, when there is fire already through the outside, why do they take the first line and close fog the fire from the outside to knock down a big part of the fire for the second line, which by now should have a hydrant hooked to the engine by now for that second line to have a full supply
I totally agree with staying off the roof, just pull ceiling. When I started 30 yrs ago we almost always went to the roof. I am happy to say now we mostly pull ceilings. I was on a roof and my partner had leg go through. Not because of fire damage, just cheap plywood. Lucky he got out without being hurt
This doesn’t have to do with this video necessarily, but I was just wondering if someone can tell me what the 4 multicolor lights, near the cabin the side are for? Is it for lines in use? Obviously I’m not a firefighter. I’ve learned quite a bit over the years from a layman’s view but that little row of multicolor lights is driving me crazy! Lol thanks everyone
@@TransmitThe1075 now that makes sense. I’ve never been a ff but I’ve learned a whole lot over the years. I’ve even took online smoke reading classes and those light were killing me! Thanks
Just looking at the smoke I can tell you that it was a bad idea to kick the door because it could lead to a smoke explosion and the colour of the smoke looks like a hot fire that is producing hot gases, which are accumulating inside the house, and becoming so hot that it becomes really dense, and the colour of the smoke becomes darker and at the same time, producing a lot of pressure inside the house, which could cause hostile fire events like roll over and or a flashover venting can bring in oxygen into the house, which can be fatal because fire needs oxygen to survive where if you take away the oxygen and you put water on the exposure of the fire on the brovo side of the house, you can cool off the fire to a certain point that it will starve and die out because there’s no oxygen, and it’s contained the velocity of the smoke is an indicator that there could even be a Backdraft and looking at how velocity of the smoke that is coming out is a big problem because it could lead to more hostile fire events. I am no firefighter
To go with my comment. I also wanted to add that I would do a horizontal ventilation instead of a vertical ventilation, and I would make a really small vent hole this way the pressure will leave faster because of the path of least resistance which will help get rid of the smoke this way the firefighters can make an entry. Because of the direction of flow path of the smoke will clear. The building faster this way, the firefighters that go in to the building, are able to use their equipment to extricate the victims inside of the burning House
@@Seabed3434 You've already got a mostly unidirectional flowpath from charlie to alpha as evidenced by the fire blowing out most of the area of the alpha side windows. Taking the front door might add some air, but would not significantly change the fire conditions. Also, if there is a wind component (and I think there was) then opening the front door will do very little.
Backdrafts are probably one of the most difficult to predict situations on the fire scene ever. That said I wouldn’t be remotely concerned about having one in this scenario.
Sack the QB, Sack the QB, sack the QB! A hole in the roof is just going to expose the house to the weather and force rapid repairs instead of being able to board up for the winter, or until the insurance processes.
The video guy is a fireman (He has a lid on when you see his shadow in the grass) and he couldn't kick those kinks out? It got to be a barely noticed habit before I made it out of probie, fix kinks.
The way I taught, get people out first, pumper engineer should be using the deck gun, then 2 hand lines into the house, one hand line in fan mode to cool gases on ceiling, the other hand straight bore into the fire.
I'm going to I say I agree with you and especially with the comments of JB91710. This fire was begging for a transitional attack of hit it hard from the yard on the front window where fuel rich smoke was burning.A 2nd line aimed at the ceiling to absorb heat and not disturb thermal layering would have gone a long way toward making interior attack easier cooler and safer. After that send the interior crew in once the steam lifts and visibility improves. That the fire didn't spread into the attic space is surprising. More surprising is that they got a good knock on the fire with a SINGLE 1 3/4 maybe 50 instead instead of 100+ nozzle pressure combination nozzle needs to be effective. Only one line was pulled. Plenty of personnel to pull a second! I don't know if this was hydrant or foldatank territory but I believe the general rule that the more water Properly applied ASAP the less water time and effort total extinguisgment will be needed and the the more property saved. In closing I'm gonna say this: I was trained in a vol department in 1988 or so. We didn't see enough fires for a lit of us to become the well oiled machine like NY or Chicago. So I'm no expert. As I love the fire service and enjoy learning new stuff I gotta say the UL/NIST fire lab controlled burns and the Governor's Island well instrumented Live Burns made a believer out of me. But tradition dies hard and not just in the fire service, it's human nature. Dave Pacholok #30 RDFPD, Retired SLEEPY HOLLOW IL
This is something I do myself when watching RU-vid videos on firefighting video regardless how feel about the tactics I would never criticize what should of been done or what should never been done if I'm not there I have no business complaining that being said there was a fire next town over from me never made it on RU-vid The fire was in attached garage fully involved first due engine attacked the fire 2nd due back them up with 2-1/2 knocking down the fire once it was out they thought the job was done and before you know it heavy smoke was pushing hard thru out the house ended up losing the whole house. As for my department if the first due pulls up and attached garage is fully involved we make are way inside and make sure we keep the fire from spreading thru the garage door leading into the house and the second due goes to the second floor and start opening up the walls checking for extension and the 3rd due works the garage of course nothing ever goes to plan but the main objective still the same stop the fire from spreading into the house.
I generally agree with your philosophy of attacking the garage fire through the front door. I like this idea if it hasn’t really broken out yet. However, in situations where it’s blowing out windows and garage doors I think hitting the fire directly is the best idea with the understanding that you need to check for extension ASAP.
11/1/23. I agree that extending a line thru the front is foremost in getting fast control of the interior. I agree to all the reason you mention to why go thru the front door. One, I feel, is that 80% of people go out the most used door. There might be additional victims at the front door trying or have tried to egress the structure. My pet peeve was opposing lines. Most certain a potential bad outcome. Thanks.
We see eye to eye on most of these jobs you post, I am a deep south truck guy. Trained with different guys from all over the country. Starting with chasing kinks, everyone on the fire ground should be looking for that. Where should you start from... If i am first in I look for the best way to the fire from the unburnt area usually, but like the front door most of the time. Donkey kicking the front door... I have enough tools in my hands to take out about most anything why would I or one of my guys hurt themselves... And I didn't see many tools in anyone's hand till late in the video. Single family wood truss roofs and especially garden apartments, Just stay ta' F off the roof! Don't get dead! And like you said the fire was out! Hook the ceiling! Just my 2 cents Be Safe!
Not sure I would define a color to a particular type of fire. However, the lightness of a smoke is generally considered to be a smaller fire. The darker, the more incomplete combustion. And the speed of which the smoke flows, faster and faster meaning a more serious fire condition and getting close to flashover.
I had a video idea completely unrelated to this video. The topic is smoke detectors. In your experience as a firefighter talking about the differences in fire outcomes if there were or weren’t working smoke detectors.
Without question, and the data shows it, smoke detectors, have been one of the biggest life saving devices ever invented in the fire service. Notifying occupants when Fire is small and extinguishable. Waking occupants in the middle of the night. Notifying neighbors.
I’m not sure what you mean everywhere. I would say it’s certainly safer because it’s so ineffective that you’re less likely to hurt yourself. You have very little power and you’re striking the door very low, where the door can bend and flex dissipating all the energy. Just like with the irons, you want to put the force as close to the lock as possible. Again, I am arguing about a tactic that isn’t advisable in the first place.
The fact that firefighters had advanced past the fire visible at the point of entry is concerning. Yes, it’s a small fire but it’s there and that means they are advancing without checking their exit point.
As a plumber before I was a firefighter, the crew is entering through kitchen/ dining area with kitchen on left of entry point with living room directly ahead. Small window is definitely a bathroom. No way did police and neighbour remove victim from bedroom unless it was a basement fourth bedroom. Of course the venting occurred during rescue. Donkey kick is generally resort of big belly that can't get get knee high enough to front kick. Generally front door leads to upper and down stairs, up leading directly to kitchen with living room on Bravo side. Agree no need for vertical ventilation.
Once again I think you're right on all points. This is a bi-level home. Probably built in the 70s or early 80s with dimensional lumber so yes no reason to use a roof ladder to cut the roof that absolutely positively did NOT need to be cut in the first place. That roof would hold 10 guys. Primarily because there is no fire under it (hence no reason to cut it LOL). Moving on... Your verbal description of the layout was 100% on point. I don't think that blueprint graphic helped much but you pegged every window on that house. Front door up and right turn is the bedrooms. Probably two smaller bedrooms in the front and master bedroom in the rear. Upstairs and left is the living room in front and dining room kitchen in the rear. I am guessing this started as a kitchen fire. Chief does a 360 and orders the line around the back. I agree should have gone through the front door (for all reasons you stated) but there are fires where its appropriate to take the line to the back. Ultimately fire was put out and was good to see vols who weren't afraid to go interior. But, chief officers coming to the front door with no tools? Come on.
I think when they vent the roof when someone is inside you get the heat out regardless if the fires halfway out or not that's why they cut their hole in the roof
I am with you on the hose issue. I see Department's using minute man loads and flat packs, when they pull them they end up like spaghetti all over the ground. Department I ran with we used triple pack in 150 & 200 ft. It was so much easier and faster.
I think the triple pack, assuming I understand what you’re describing, can be very good. However, I found those packs can be problematic if you have a short distance between the apparatus and the Fire building.
Hey there I currently work for City Dept back East very aggressive and see a lot of fire. I would agree with you about making entry into front door unless it’s a rescue situation, we have enough manpower where we can be protected with person on the line. Access to both levels are most likely near front side of house. Deploying right hand line, pressures are crucial when it comes to fire behavior, contents, construction, etc. very good points on all levels, I would stretch to the front door maybe a transitional attack if no one is inside then make interior attack. PPV can be very effective especially with this house and flow path. Remember we bring control to chaos not the other way around
Thanks for the comments. You better have 20 guys that know what they are doing and hand lines in place if you’re pulling out a PPV during an active fire. Super risky in my view.
Sorry let me clarify I would make an interior attack front A side and instead of vertical vent I would utilize PPV to help push the smoke. Want to make sure the bull of the fire has been extinguished first! There a lot of unknowns when it comes to split level fires especially if it’s balloon construction. I would say best way to fire this fire knowing there is no one inside is a transitional attack or interior through front door
I’m only a few weeks out of Fire 1 and I would not have vented that roof. I know that makes me sound like a know-it-all. Sorry about that! But what I learned is that venting is to let hot smoke and gasses escape…WHEN the fire is in the growth or fully developed stage. This fire was out when they vented. Not to mention there was already plenty of horizontal ventilation anyways.
When you have fire free burning or venting out the window you can walk right up to the fire and knock it down it's getting plenty of oxygen and pulling all the air it could find you can literally stand at the door and watch the smoke getting pulled right back in. When the fire is looking for open window that's when the smoke is extremely sooty and venting becomes important.
Agree totally with the line placement traditionally at the front door, would’ve been my call. Although the line to the Charlie side accomplished the same thing. May have even considered a transitional attack from the alpha side.
In a situation like this, firefighters like police officers need to be aware of friendly fire or crossfire. Most firefighters head straight for the front door whether it is the right thing to do or not and it can take time to get through it. It seems a 360 directed the first crew to the rear of the house for a usually quicker entry through sliding or conventional doors. Also, fire departments are Straight Stream happy for no other reason than any fog pattern may create a steam bath. I guess nobody told them that eliminating the flames quickly will eliminate the heat source that creates steam and maintains it at a dangerous temperature. That straight stream entering the rear area will be directed through the house and could take out firefighters coming in the front door. Crossfire! That is where coordination is important. If the rear crew is the main fighting force, then the front crew should stay outside and soak down any burning materials they see through the windows. Plus, the creation of any added interior air pressure by the water application in back could push hot gasses into the faces of firefighters who are creating a new Pressure Release Location at the front door. It's better to allow those gasses to exit the front windows while any additional water application is directed through those windows with a tight stream deflecting off the window headers, jambs and the room ceiling to soak that room and prevent flashover. Like you saw here because those gasses weren't cooled. If someone was on the floor just inside the front windows, the heat and gasses pushed from the rear to the front would have incinerated them. A stream of water through the front windows would have cooled the gasses and the victim while the open window would have allowed all the gasses and water vapor a direct route out of the structure because that straight stream wouldn't have blocked that opening. Tunnel vision at a fire allows combustion to spread in every possible direction. That's why heading straight for the roof or the front door or setting egress ladders Just because that is our designated job, is the wrong approach. It is the job of leaders to look at the big picture in three dimensions and direct firefighters in a way that will protect anyone inside along with the entering firefighters. Gasses out and water in, and the fastest and safest way to accomplish that is through the windows. Not through the front door or the roof JUST because Heat Rises!
