for a broke a$$ man like myself who cant afford your course this free stuff is pure gold. thank you, sir 🤝 Really, thank you from the bottom of my heart.
I have a lot of different ideas about grain - Like most things I can agree with a lot of what you present but have a few problems with some of it. My first comment is the "Advanced has the controls that are imperative to reproduce the characteristics of a film grain that we all have seen in films. At one point you said in the video that it should never look like it is just slapped on. Yet not taking advantage if the "Shadow, Mids and highlight" under the advanced section - is a mistake in my opinion. When you analyse films, the shadows because of the inherent luma value, doesn't even under zooming in appear to have as much grain as highlights. I have seen ( including you ) talk about grabbing keys to separate the grain - but after quite a bit of scrutiny and testing the "Advanced" controls regarding this, does a better job in blending between the luminosity of that grain. In most cases, I almost turn off Shadow all together and leave midtones in or near the middle and then push the grain into the highlights. When it all evenly placed, that to me looks like it is forced on top. Second point. I also think that the grain should be set and not mixed in with the Node key output gain. That way of mixing in my opinion changes the characteristics of the grains contrast, which is not something that I think is beneficial. The biggest thing with grain is that spending more than a few minutes with it for youTube upload footage or buying into a really expensive grain plug-in is a big waste of time. The unfortunate fact is ( and I have ) you can spend many hours nailing down a grain and inspecting it, until it appears perfect- and then RU-vid's compression engine destroys it. Not mention here, but I see over and over - is the misconception and theory of adding grain up front because film development would have the grain already in. The answer to that is that if you add film grain on the first node. Then do some printer lights and render it, because a lot of the stuff we can do to make digital video look good, if done after the grain is put in - will affect the grain - and sometimes make it look horrid. Like I have been saying with any Texture, if you add any smoothing like a person's skin, or even a power window with a blurred edge and luma changes ( vignette for example ) - I can't tell you how many times I have slightly blurred the outside of a power window to shift the viewers eyes to the normally sharpened subject. Anyway to see how and what that does to film grain - if you have the grain on the first node - go back and turn on "Grain Only" and then play the clip. The grain at that point will look awful. So order of node operations is a big deal. If you do this test - then click on the grain node ( up front ) and press "e" to extract the node and drag it over and drop it on the end of the node tree. Same grain and it will be pristine. Film grain has other benefits though, there is the idea that even with a locked off shot - film grain movement can add life to the image. The grain's random movement has that feeling over actual texture that is static. The viewer doesn't usually notice it, but it keeps their attention more than a static image. It's part of the film watching experience that is subliminal but important.
Agree on a number of those points and particularly the shadows. I use Nitrate sometimes (grain only) and always turn the shadow grain right down. I think it was Spielberg who said he likes how film grain makes a static image feel alive. Personally I’m still not sure about it. Yes, nostalgia for grainy movies from my youth but so was noise and hiss on sound recordings and I’m not always a huge fan of those qualities either. Funny how we flip flop between the qualities engineers were working hard on to mitigate only to find everyone wants to recreate those very things. Google ‘Stranger Things Grain’ and a bunch of Reddit posts will come up with the comment section full of people complaining about the grain. Maybe tastes are changing. Agree 100% with Cullen that it has so sit and match the content so it doesn’t look slapped on. (Thanks Cullen)
what was it prior? grain is not only used for stylistic purposes, but it also helps with bringing the texture together, whether's it's gradients, edges and so on. It also ads subjective sharpening to certain details, not in a digital way, but in a good way.
@@Rogeras32 Thanks for the response. I see a lot of work recently being pretty heavy handed with grain and it feels out of context. Additionally, with the sensors, lighting, and lenses being used, it feels like we should be shifting further away from film grain, especially since it relatively useless on social media because of compression. what are you thoughts?
This a great way to think about grain. Simple, sensible, useful. Thanks! In a different video you made about noise reduction, you mentioned another use of grain I've used a number of times. After serious noise reduction, adding grain to an image helps take the curse off the plastic look that NR can introduce, especially temporal NR. Thanks for that, too, Cullen.
of course, always add film grain no matter what. If it's not need for stylistic purposes, just add a light 35mm grain - it helps put everything together
This is what I've been looking for a hundred years Damn it, Kelly, you're my savior. The other day I proved to many that throwing overlay on top of the frame is a bad idea, since the grain will not look organically in accordance with the frame in many ways. And here I heard the "golden words" that confirmed my judgment. I propose to take this question to a live performance, where you will sort out an extremely important issue in the correct aesthetics of the grain in the frame. This is an insanely interesting topic against the background of the increased demand for film-type emulation
this is great !! i wasnt satisfied with the way my grains turn out ! Opened YT hoping to find solution and found this video on top of my feed !! and its from Cullen Kelly ! what more can i ask, i've always been a fan of the way he explains in a very practical and indepth manner ! Thanks for this
Thanks, Cullen! I discovered you recently and have been enjoying all your content. I was wondering why you switched to linear gamma to blur your image?
I did some comparison and the reason is probably that the blur feels different. The "normal gamma" blur blurs the highlights and shadows in the same way. When I switch to linear, the highlights creep over the shadows, which is a result you would expect when looking at out of focus image through camera viewfinded. My guess, but the result feels more real world like in linear gamma.
Thank you! Great learnings as always! 👍 It would be interesting to hear your reasoning regarding film grain in times of digital distribution (RU-vid, Netflix etc) and the compression algorithms that comes with that. The feel will probably be different compared to what we experience on the grading monitors? The efficiency of the compression algorithms may suffer, etc… Thanks again!! 👍 15:23
sure thing, every grain will be destroyed on the internet (aside from Vimeo), but that doesn't stop filmmakers / clipmakers / commercial directors etc. from using it :)
The goal of film emulation is to take the best from the film tradition, but not be limited by it. I’ve heard you say that, CK. To many, including you, I think, film grain is one of those limitations. You’ve said elsewhere it’s not a go-to element in your toolbox. I agree. Adding grain to a digital images is like buying pre-stressed jeans with all the rips and frayed edges added at the factory to make them look worn. It’s like adding digital dirt and gate weave to an image. But I was blown away by this video, specifically the fact that grain is, in fact, the sharpest element in a projected film image. If I’m ever asked to add grain, I have an approach that is workable and palatable. Thanks.
you don't have to destroy your digital image completely to add film grain which would look great. Why do you think that film grain is a limitation, rather than one of those "best tools from the film tradition"? I mean, even most of the movies use film grain prints and plugins to a certain extent, but they don't necessarily look "film-like". I mean, even with a clean look you can add 35mm film grain to help you with mid contrast, details, bringing the texture together. you don't have to go all-in cinematic to have a reason to add film grain and benefit from it not only creatively.
@@Rogeras32 Good point! Of course it's fine to choose to add grain. The aesthetic benefits are in the eye of the beholder. I just think back when film was the only game in town, color scientists developing the photo chemistry would consider grain a built-in limitation, not an asset. I'd be surprised if people like Mitch Bogdanowicz were searching for ways to add grain to a new film stock he was developing for Kodak. Like many, I spent decades shooting 16mm film, always trying to minimize grain, which was a constant battle, not a choice. This experience no doubt limits my capacity appreciate the aesthetics of adding grain to an image.
Thank you so much for continually and so frequently sharing with useful and inspiring videos. Not a colourist that makes a living from colour grading, but I really feel like to have a seat in your course and believe it's gonna be super useful for me. I shoot some events like concerts or sports, occasionally scientific products, like how it operates or produces, and at my leisure some nature stuffs like wildlife. Basically I need to take part in everything related to video shooting and editing so perhaps knowing how a colonist collaborates with other film editing members would be indirectly help me to learn how to optimise the workflow for all other jobs. But if at possible, I'd like learn more directly how everything about film editing should be done from your point of view. I wonder if there are plenty others like me who would like a course for enthusiasts who want to learn more around colour grading. Hopefully there would be some courses I could join in the future. Cheers.
Incredible breakdown my man!! Thank you so much for this!! Don't suppose there's a work around on the free version hey? Can't add the film grade eft in the free version. Cheers, James
Cullen, can you make one such video on grain but from specialty emulation tools like dehancer? They seem to have a TON of options and generate grain more organically than any other inbuilt tool. Thank you.
Just yesterday I had finished watching all the videos on the channel, this one arrives just in time! Thank you for all the great content! I would like to know if you have color graded files from Fuji F Log, and what are those considerations with this kind of files, I understand that you do this independent of the camera file and you just tackle the files the same way, but maybe any aditional consideration for F-log? 🤓 Thanks again!
I dont know if you already didit, cuz i cant find it in your channel, but i would like to se your room and tech setup for color correction. What equipment do you use, the iluminations, the paint used in the walls, accesories, etc...
Hey Cullen! I am just getting started with Davinic. I love your chill video style. I started with your noise reduction video, now I am here. This seems like great information but I am still a little lost on the basics. Which videos of yours would you recommend watching to get a solid foundation down before diving into final touches like grain or noise reduction? Thank you!
Absolutely love your stuff! Thanks for providing such a great resource for color grading! I was trying to access some of the links in the description and couldn't get any of them to work. It just gives me the "404" error
Just out of curiosity is the green tint on the dark side of the girl’s face is a creative choice, because in my opinion it looks really strange and not authentic like something that might come of a filter using Retrica
About to use film grain on one or two short films right now. Perfect timing. I'm finding references for film grain on Shotdeck, but are they any good quality videos out there other than streaming where I may find film grain in motion? I'm specifically looking at film from the 80's for one project.
Dehancer's film grain looks great, especially with it's bloom and softening, but it shifts the image gamma, make an image a tad bit brighter, so you'd have to fix it afterwards.
Hi Cullen. Great video as always. Two quick questions: 1) How did you apply the blur and 2) Is it necessary down the road to come out of the Linear Gamma or is that accomplished automatically in one of the nodes? Huge thanks as always!
Love these videos, thank you! I have a query regarding your statement that grain is the sharpest aspect of a film. Why place the grain layer after the blur node, rather than before it?
If you place the blur after the grain then you'll end up just blurring the texture of the grain (along with the rest of the image). The point he's making is that on a film stock the silver halide(?) crystals that made up the image were in essence the equivalent of pixels on a sensor in today's terms. Therefore, the smallest level of detail you could have in an image was the size of the grain texture, which in the case of emulation on a digital image where you can see the grain, means that the image needs to have a subtle blur prior to adding film grain so that there are no details passing through that are obviously finer than that of the grain. A good way to see the purpose of the blur node is to try making the grain really big (bigger than you'd ever actually use) and see the sharp image still coming through underneath. It looks strange and very much like the grain has been slapped on top (because it has) rather than embedded and part of the image itself. Sorry, long winded explanation but hopefully helpful!
I know it's not very sexy, but could you do a video or section on gamut compression and tonemapping when converting between color spaces (especially DWG and ACES) and how to bypass color management properly, especially when using ACEScg clips in a DWG managed project? I'm working on a project now that's just killing me (I'm a one man band) where I have to debayer raw timelapses to DWG, grade, export to ACES for use in CG renders and import them back. I somehow managed to get some crazy saturated channel clipping that didn't show up in the DWG-Rec709 conversion, but screamed in the CG import. I really thought AP1 gamut should cover it, but apparently not. Anyways, tonemapping here and there saved the day in the end, but I didn't really know what I was doing and can safely say that I'm gonna run into that kind of problem again. Anyways long rant, thanks for premium content as always!
Problem is- uploading that film grained video to the web, so then compression turns the video blotchy and muddy, you can't see the fine grain +video gets blurry.. 🤔🤔
awesome video! thank you so much. Quick question that I would love to get your answer on. If I add a node with grain in the timeline level of my grade, will the noise reduction at the clip level interact with the added grain?
looks like the 2383 lut link isn't working at the moment. Question about that lut, I downloaded it about 6 months ago, is that one still the same lut or is this an updated version? Thanks!
You say you apply one grain to rule them all (between shots) but what happens when a particular shot has the grain much more noticeable than a previous shot because it’s darker or whatever, isn’t that just what they were trying yo avoid in the film days?
Why? Film grain (like a proper film negative characteristic) responds differently to a different exposure of the film. It has a curve. So it's actually more accurate to have a universal grain on your timeline, like you have a single film stock that the project was shot on. It's also less of a pain in the ass. Just have it in your "show look" and don't bother.
timeline is applied to the whole timeline, post-group (like pre-group) is applied to a grouped clips, that you've selected and pressed "add to a new group". So you can have your show look on a timeline basis (like film grain, print lut and so on) and different "scene" looks on a group basis. And only use shot grading for quick matching with basic tools, like printer lights or local masks to fix or relight shit.
Depends on what texture you want in the image/grain. The softness in the Film Grain OFX only affects the sharpness of the grain being overlayed, not the image itself. Adding a lot of sharpness in the film grain just means you'll have very soft grain on top of a sharp image, it won't add further blur to image itself (if that's the concern/assumption you're suggesting)
You’re right about film grain being felt as opposed to seen… But you are not right about the guitar. The guitar should be heard and felt! The guitar should go away and come back… And sometimes it should come back subtly and sometimes it should come back raging.
One thing about most digital attempts at film grain that hinders them from being truly believable is the absence of dye clouds. I know not everyone loves dye clouds but when you view a colour image on a large screen, monochrome grain feels a little out of place IMO.
why would you use monochrome film grain aside from BW projects? On a color negative grain has also color values) I usually put .3 sat in a grain plugin node. You can go for more if you're going for all-in cinematic wreckage
The perception of filmgrain changes with the younger generation...they are more accustomed to watch "clean" images...So the usage of film grain becomes more and more a choice you have to think about twice....
