How BAD is the Kayo Armory Deck? ► Living Legends Podcast Ep 98 

The most poignant thought of this was pointing out that this either needs to be cheaper or needs more valued cards. At $40, I don't see how this is meant to bring in new players. My guess is, they're upping the cost because the new cards combined will collectively net more than $40. I also think leaving Bloodrush Bellows out leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I thought for sure that would be included. I haven't played a brute yet that doesn't run it. I think that was not just a reasonable inclusion but a must. And I have to add. 12 per case. I know there's thought put into that. But I think this really screws smaller shops. 1) my smaller shops isn't even getting any. I have to go to the other place I play at. 2) while I think the Kayo decks will sell well. I'm afraid in the future, stores are going to get stuck with product. Smaller stores can't afford to have $40 products just sitting around. Maybe that's an unwanted concern, but if I'm a shopkeeper, it's not. Last thing I will add is about how precons can help the game if done better (either cheaper or a few more staples). The players. I play at 2 really fun shops. I loss all the time (I've been playing for about 5 months). But the older players are always real helpful. They give me tips. They joke around. They don't take it easy on me, but also don't make me feel like a dumbass when I make a wrong move. They make the game fun. I think a well constructed pre con and some friendly players would encourage new players to stick around and then invest in the game.

My take, FaB is not new player friendly. When I first learned about the game a year ago, when to LGS, bought some blitz decks - no rules. Then I heard about classic battles, bought that - no rules. Followed some links to sites mentioned in classic battle, found a youtube video of 2 guys playing classic battles decks, but not explaining the rules at all. I gave up after that. Few months later, LGS hosted a learn to play day where they show you the Ira demo decks. It's definitely some work to get started. As for CC, I don't know what the answer is. A ground floor product does sound like a good idea. Given how competitive the game is maybe there is a better way to bridge a new player into CC. I know a CC starter deck has been asked for, but maybe not the best approach.

While LSS is great at game design, they sure need to improve on the product design. It's kind of sad that everything but main sets (and even some of them) is very poorly designed. The ceiling is so much higher than this...

They should have released 3-4 of these decks at the same time, included staples, not included new cards so existing players don't canablize them, and ran "new player CC" events. LSS is always the type of company to take two steps forward and one step back.

The deck is too weak for new players to compete and has too limited quantities for existing players to get the new cards. And it is too expensive for both groups. It manages to fail on every front.

Great conversation for sure. If they don't want to include a CnC, sure fine. But the deck should be so complete where all you have to do is update to Legendaries and any Majestic over $50. I literally have Clash format decks more powerful than this deck. Even though LSS has grown a lot, they are still a small indy studio and can not have missteps like this to bring in new players. There are so many amazing games out there. Bill's point is great about either a lower price, or a more reprints but as is it's a terrible product. If they didnt want to put in big cost cards and new M from HVY, they could have put Bloodrush Bellow, Beast Within and Swing Big and it would have been a competitive deck.

I bought a dromai blitz deck, had zero clue how to play it, basically was playing with my friend with the professor's "how to play video" on the TV I also recently bought a $20 one piece starter deck, learned how to play the game from the insert, and managed to win games at my competitive locals that day

Man next time someone interviews james ask why they are so bad at making constructed products

The idea that the average armory shouldn’t be competitive is insane to me. When there is a buy in and prizes and the explicit purpose is competing most people will be trying there best to win. It was like that at any FNM(Friday Night Magic) I’ve been to in the past, Pokémon TCG locals, Yu-Gi-Oh locals , or insert other TCG here people get relatively serious and competitive. That’s just what organized play is like in this hobby space. The Pokémon League Battle Decks are in fact a great example of a $30 product that sets you up with a reasonably competitive deck for the local level that comes with an insert that explains the play lines of the deck and upgrade routes. And when I dabbled with Pokémon before finding FaB after deciding to distance myself from MtG it was an amazing entry point that did not leave me feeling completely outclassed by the other players that were in fact super invested with real meta decks.

There shouldn't be a single person at LSS who thought this was a good idea. It's not a good sign, no. I feel like they're losing touch. Which doesn't mean they'll lose business. But I don't care much about their market share. I care more about the game being good. There's something fundamentally going wrong and I hope they righten the ship.

Hell yeah, keep up with the bouldering Azz. Takes a bit of time, but the grip / arm strength builds up fast. To keep on topic, I will be picking up a copy of the Kayo Armoury deck, basically just to cannibalize for my Kayo deck, as I'm not sure how available the singles will be since everyone will be after the same stuff from the deck. I can't imagine the individual pieces will become cheaper to buy on their own. I agree that they could have done a bit more, but I do think it could be a good starting point for a new player trying to get into CC.

So I'm a fairly new player to the game. Got in just before bright lights. I was also fortunate enough to be able to buy a kayo deck. My thoughts? Firstly opening the product and not getting a sideboard for $40 is absurd, better yet you destroy the box when opening and there is not even a paper deck box to store the deck. I do feel the deck is severely under powered for what it is. I was fortunate enough to be able to build a budget Fai deck I found on RU-vid for $50. I honestly think that $50 build is 100x better than the Kayo deck that LSS produced. Why? Well for one I had a sideboard, the deck ran good enough where I won a few starting games, and the deck feels good too. The video even came with an upgrade path. If I played this Kayo deck not knowing anything about the game, I feel I could've been turned from the game entirely. Especially if I also found I could've spend that 40 more wisely. LSS should watch some budget build RU-vid videos. The new cards are cool, but don't justify the price. What if we got a CC version of round the table? Would this Kayo deck fit there?😂

One way to look at the armory decks could be: You are a new player and do not want to invest in a game you do not know anything about. (speaking from experience) The buy in to try it is 40+ dollars. This money allows you to learn the concepts of the game. Let's say the armory deck is tooled with everything competitive. I would still not know what I was doing. Your first game could literally be with this deck and your first turn is you trying to figure out how pitching for resources work. I wish this was available when I started out. I actually think blitz is harder to start out with so I would have loved this product. Also you and a friend don't want to go to an armory so you buy one of these to practice with each other. it's a win win for 40$ IMO.

If this product is aimed at new players, would a new player understand how to side board? It took me a long time to understand side boarding concepts. Also, how would you know which cards to put in that sideboard if you are LSS? every meta is different. There are no prism, wizard or Viserai in my meta for example. I do get your point as adding more cards to the product would be good but not sure If I agree that putting a sideboard in would be a good idea. I do agree that FAB is too expensive.

As someone new to the game, I look at this and think, why buy this when I can wait for Part the Mist Veil and buy the bundle thing and just play something jank at my armory but have product (box packs playing etc). Also as a new player I look at this and think why is it so hard for them to make a starter deck lmfao. Are they ignorant to what other companies are doing in the space ? Do they want this to be the “expensive Dark Souls TCG” ? Fun game but weird decisions 😂

my biggest issues with the Kayo deck is that there are no Savage feasts in it. surely they could have included a highly played rare from WTR? and I'm curious why they chose not to include a reprint of BRB? include these two cards and suddenly the price point of the deck and the playability improve dramatically.

The game is approaching it's 5th anniversary - LSS in my opinion needs to not be so stingy when it comes to majestic reprints. If they literally included 1 copy of Swing Big in this deck these serious concerns about financial value would have been completely avoided - how sad is that ?

Who is this product actually for? most of this deck would be gifted by experienced players for dirt cheap or free at my local armory's to new players, who would recommend this? I am so perplexed.. feels like maybe its actually a way to release some new cards to guarantee sales at a higher price tag. Really don't wanna be this cynical, just confused

58:06 kind of reminds me of Joey Senart's expansive PDF of how to play fab. That guide has taught so many people on how to play fab, directly and indirectly. I've made so many starter decks from that guide and given them out. And Saint gave out so many of those decks to people around the world. To bring the point back to where I was going with it, they should've definitely printed out how to play instructions with their decks. And it should have looked like what Joey made. And yes I know LSS is all about the environment and don't want to print more waste. But fuck the environment if people are not going to buy your product because they don't even know to play it from right out of the box. And guess what they're going to do with those decks anyways if they don't know how to play? They're going to throw it out. So now the entire product is a waste for the environment. Now no1 is going to buy it, so it sits on the shelves of LGS. And it's not going to sit there for long because shelf real estate is competitive. So now it goes into storage or in the trash. More waste.

"Babtism by fire. It's like they want you to lose with this over and over and over again." I laughed out loud 😂

I genuinely believe that if LSS could finally get their product design outside of booster boxes right and started reprinting expensive cards like Command and Conquer again in some frequency, the World could be their oyster. Then again regarding expensive reprints like these, they could very well just have decided to phase out cards like CnC by printing other types of "Command" effects like this for other cards and be it class specific at times. It's okay if CnC remains expensive and rare if there are cheaper alternatives you can play instead. I doubt they are going to reprint CnC in any meaningful capacity ever again because the card is simply too strong as well, I dunno. But yeah, the deck sucks and I hope the Boltyn deck will be better. Boy, if that doesn't have Lumina Ascension in it... 🤡

Pros: deck plays well, new powerful cards Cons: missing sideboard, no reprints of value, expensive for what you get.

I think for $20.0 and some new artwork on the reprints and the product is fine. I’m looking at the card list and it’s not terrible as a starting point. It looks like a functional deck.

My friends and I have played through Remnant 2 and its two DLC that they have released so far. I am the support sniper that tries to keep the team alive. My main build is Alchemist with the ability to revive downed allies and medic that applies heals and applies shields to allies. Main weapon is the widow maker with the heal glob mod so I can sit back and snipe everything with huge weakspot damage. Can't remember my small gun, (its the uzi gun you find in the locked docks at base) with a mod that creates a shield to deflect ranged damage.

When you factor in a lot of the choices LSS made over the last year, and then realize they decided to release this product, it really makes you feel like the golden age of FAB is dead and gone. LSS continues to get further out of touch with their community (and store owners) and it's a shame when they used to be one of the best in the industry. This is by far one of the worst new player targeted products we've seen in the last 10 years of TCGs from price, card selection, player experience - all of it really. This made the Vanguard starters actually look good

The market price for this still being twice MSRP is just plain silly, but I'm not a Kayo guy. I'll wait and see what happens by the time they release a hero I'm actually interested in. Then I'll litmus test my LGS for FaB pricing on niche products.

This is coming from someone whos newly coming back to the game after the poor gaming experience monarch gave me. Id say this starter deck is hot trash, spit in your face cash grab. Ill certainly not pick this up and brute was the class that got me into FaB back when the game first came out. All the points brought up here perfectly explain why too. I just got into Shadowverse Evolve and for the cost of this Kayo deck i was able to pick up 2 good and playable starter decks that have lots of foils and staple cards and a rules sheet and life counter. $40 is not an entry level price for a deck that isnt even complete with no sideboard. So yeah ill pass on this (probably all product from them too) and just pick up singles for my kitchen table decks which is just better in general for any game. Ill invest my cash for sealed product on other games. Anyway thats my hot take for whatever it may be worth lol

I totally agree that Kayo Armory deck could've been so much better, and I don't play Brute. Reprints of more powerful cards would've been appreciated. Love listening to the podcast!

Extra prizing for being the best at a unique hero is actually a great idea

The value is hinged upon the unique cards being desired in competitive play. If there is no competitive use, the product will have no value. Kel is right that the value is not spread across the product. It is top heavy chase cards. So to me the product flaw is at the fundamental level since the value is hinged upon competitive needs and not new players. These are probably $20-25 at cost. That will be the total value of the deck at the end of the day. It will probably be $15 for the chest and 3-5 for run roughshod. I also disagree with Kel. Any cards that are put in a deck like this will Immediately lose value. Even at face value the product should only be worth about $30 after being opened. Arbitrage is not good. Once again, fundamental flaw. Im not saying i have the answer but Weiss Schwartz does 90%unique cards in their intro products with a chance for a chase alt art card. You can win by combining two $15 Trial Decks in Weiss.

The Living Legs podcast...when?

Heck yeah got a Hank and Viserai shout out baby!!!!!🤘🏻

So as who has started to look into cc after only playing blitz and upf it is really hard to side board I think if they put an in depth explanation of a side board that would help alot

Yeah, they keep doing this with their precons. At least they have full play sets of the cards included despite them not being good.

Why do we set no value to the new cards when discussing the deck? Sure the Commons and Rares are like $15 , but if the Armory Decks all sell out because people want the chest piece and the blue, then I guess it was "worth" $40. I wonder if all armory decks are designed to be sort of balanced to each other. There really needs to be a quick learn to play guide and deck guide in all starter products, it should be easy for new players to learn the rules without searching the internet.

Well, they just anounced the new deck, Boltyn. But I'm still concerned because the structure seems to be the same: 60 card deck, no side board, same $40 price tag, geez. My hope now it's in the cardlist itself, and I don't even plan to buy the product, I'm just hoping it'll be better than Kayo's

How does this Kayo CC deck compare to the original WTR Hero decks?

New players are not side boarding. Even the blitz decks didn't have sideboard. I do agree the value is a bit weak but I feel like if this deck existed when I started, I would definitely pick it up.

I am in agreement with a large majority of the talking points besides the sideboard issue. When this was first announced, I never once considered it would have a sideboard. I would not wish for a player new to TCGs to open it up and see Fyendal's Fighting Spirit as a red or Oasis Repsite and be responsible for figuring out where it comes into play. When I teach people with the Ira welcome decks, I have them play a match or two and then introduce Ironrot equipment. Too much to quickly will bog down the average beginner. For $20, this would have been a fine product for sure.

Agree the product should be cheaper or there should be $40 worth of value. But also agree with when you went on to say the value is in the new cards. So the value is there. Why is it important the for the value to come from reprints instead of coming from new cards? In every other FAB sealed product, 99% of the value comes from its new cards.

Hello there! Just a heads up, you can’t use the tickets from the fabled package to play the world premiere. You’ll need to buy the world premiere package separately. Yeah, the website and all the process isn’t exactly user friendly (and, agree on the expensive side too!), welcome to Japan!…

Sideboards are a selective metabase decision. They change. You're telling me that people who know nothing about the game can be then expected to sideboard. I think you'd find that most people would just play the largest deck they had because they can't determine the difference between situational useful and not

Great conversation. I’m more on the positive side of the product but I’m also not a player who takes card value into account usually for precons. Here’s part of where I think this deck has great value for a new player.Equipment, this is the main value and for FAB equips can be a big entry price and what feels more damning in a new player vs exp player is the equips. Getting a really good chest piece (maybe one of the new best pieces for brute) and a budget version of the newest legendary gloves feels great. Especially as brutes are seemingly moving away from dice rolling play styles. The list for sure could be better but it has a decent starting point. Even at $$40 imo. As a new player the chest and gloves would be worth it to me I would think. As far as sideboards. I view that as too personal and meta specific. Sure nullrunes sounds like a great include but if you have no arcane at your shop then it would be useless. Cheaper price would make this product much better and as far as inserts of how to plays, I assume it would be the same QR type codes instructions. Really enjoyed hearing you guys discuss this and the above may not make much sense as I am just rambling while doing yard work. I would be interested to hear them discuss their decisions on the LSS podcast they have been doing occasionally though.

Put 81 hero sleeves in the box. Done deal. Now you have more value with less pressure on unique cards to hold there value allowing for better low end staples to be fed in. Some one tell JW for me, thanks.

My only legitimate issue is the price. All the value is being stored onto Savage Sash, and when ALL of your value is on 1 single card, I think its failed as a product overall. However, I don't agree with a sideboard being needed to play in an armory. If this is an introductory product, YOU as the new player have no idea what you're doing. You might have a couple of casual games under your belt but thats about it. In order to properly side board you need knowledge of a match up. Lets say I'm a new player. I have null hood and robe, it says "prevent arcane damage." Whats Arcane damage? Who uses it? Why is it good in this match up? Some players aren't going to know that, nor know when to implement it. I remember the challenger decks for MTG when they came out, and they had a side board. But I didn't know what needed to stay in or come out because I was newer to standard and had really no idea what the format had to hold. People have that criticism because you are ESTABLISTHED players. You understand these concepts and understand whats good into what. Timmy whos here trying this game and has some knowledge on other TCGs isn't going to know what to take out, let alone might even struggle to play the game as a whole. FaB is a very nuanced and tight game. Very rarely games are blowouts, they're usually about small incremental advantage, and theres always so many things to keep track of. I think introducing a sideboard might have been too daunting and would have added more puzzle pieces to an already complex puzzle. I would personally love to see the armory decks go to a 25-30 range, and then LSS make a PQ deck that is maybe $50 but is more focused, and has a sideboard. Armorys are meant to be casual and fun, and a learning environment. PQs are more intense and expect you to be more familiar with the game. So I think the armory deck is fine outside of its price point. I think a PQ deck, hell, even an expansion pack FOR the armory deck to be included and it says "play a few games with the base deck before you think about slotting these cards in because this takes the deck from intermediate to advanced." or something along those lines.

Flesh and Blood kind of just sucks at making products outside of boxes and (sometimes) blitz decks, it's really baffling, and the lack of stuff to engage with has pushed me away from the game, especially when a lot of the new sets don't really end up being interesting or relevant to me. Like a Premium product is a great idea, something like the ReCollections from Grand Archive would work so well with Flesh and Blood, even Booster Bundles where you don't have buy a whole box and you get some extras for a more affordable price would appeal to a more casual audience, and providing some higher power preconstructed decks for a bit more would be a great way for newer players to engage with the game in a way where they're not at a massive disadvantage, especially when they've graduated from the blitz precons and want to play constructed. I feel as though Flesh and Blood is way to concerned with appeasing collectors and the secondary market, like there's some fear of printing cards that are essential and expensive. There's so many industry examples of successful products beyond boosters in the card game space, I don't know why LLS is so unwilling or afraid of playing with those ideas and putting out products that will not just sustain interest in their game but will attract new people to play.

I hear and understand all the points made in this podcast, however, the dead horse doesn't deserve to be kicked over and over again. Don't like the product? Then don't buy it. Have constructive criticism that is not belly aching? Then offer it. Maybe LSS will learn from that kind of constructive criticism. Sorry, but I just think this discussion was overly focused on the negative (which is not constructive) and perhaps out of balance. Maybe a slight toning down would have been appropriate. Go ahead and flame me for my opinion on the podcast 😎

Bill got so quiet about the kayo deck lol 😆

I dont think it so bad The new cards are strong and probably needed for any brute player. It really could have more, but I think it is like C grade The problem is around tied the new card being either too necessary or not necessary at all

RedZoneRogue. I love you but I think some of your mindset on this product is lost. I think buddy over at Geeks 1st gets it where you don’t. I think the basics such as a how to play and a playmat should have been in there. I think some kind of card holder even a cheap cardboard one should be included. I would even like to see some booster packs tossed in. The deck itself self is easy to learn and from the play I have seen so far able to make some big attacks. It’s also an easy deck to upgrade to make a top deck. Adding a side board just adds to the complexity of what a new player needs to learn. Sideboards are based on the meta you play in and different areas have different metas. Let the player learn the deck and then figure out meta once they have some games down the road. Then they can figure out a sideboard that works for their local meta. I’m sorry but I don’t think these decks should be able to win an armoury . It just needs to be a start. Also that Chest piece is OP. I’m going after a box myself just for that one card alone.

Lss should buy 25$ "blitz to cc upgrade" decks with their foil adult hero includednd some main majestics, spécialisations and a few side cards

What is the liklihood that the list is incorrect at this point? (I'm assuming its very low) It seems that this is such a huge missed opportunity assuming the list is correct. Lower cost with higher availabilty makes sense but, not a hard to get bulk item. It's just so odd.

As far as the sideboard issue, we have players who have played for 2 years at our armorys that have never used a sideboard. I think it is a good start point as not all players know how to pilot a sideboard, let alone the deck, as this is a start . At our armorys, we will help players we have nullrune on hand to let people use . As a community, we are able to support new players!!

I think there’s a rf copy for every playset of the new M and R cards for value add.

coven counters being garbage is a hell of a take! xD

The whining about reprint equity is such an mtg holdout and it doesn’t apply at all. This deck is swimming with effective value. You don’t have to buy a tunic You don’t have to buy bonebreakers You don’t have to buy CNC Are the replacements perfect? No, Of course not, but you’ve got ‘xxx at home’ in three expensive slots. That’s $400 savings for things you now have “good enough for an armory” replacements. The deck has no misses for discards so you can ease into the brute random nonsense. You can put this in the hands of a new player and they can punch people at an armory. They aren’t going to win matches anyway so might as well give them something that functions.

Maybe you should test the Product first before talking bad about it

Its just another greedy fail in the series of LSSs releases. Once again they just throw out a idea without any substance. But them throwing out one off products and Ideas and never following up is just tireing (Lorebook, Merchantsupport, PvE, ...). I dont even want to start a discussion that there should be 3-4 Armory decks released at the same time and actually have value. The value of the precon should be 2x the price of the product only counting cards above 2$. I would be very surprised if the professor would actually make a video about this product and rate it. Since he is sponsored by LSS most likely he will either make no video about this scam or he will use a different rating scale than on mtg decks and give it a A-B.

After reading all of the comments I'm now convinced the nay sayers of this product have absolutely forgot , or maybe didn't have the experiences some did, that coming into this game is difficult. 40$ to me is a steal and I bet you a spring tunic the armor in this kayo deck, maybe not worth the same as a tunic, but it's worth not hearing everyone tell you , "oh you actually NEED a tunic to play that deck." I could look at this deck as a way of saving 60$. That might be a stretch but it is something to consider IMO.

People do realise that the Map of this product is 32 bucks. That chest piece alone will be 30+. Whole point of the product is a starting point. Even if you include reprints, new players will still loose. I think the biggest issue here is entitlement. Some people are upset because the product does not cater to them. That has always been an issue in tcg space. Entitlement.

I think at 40 bucks it's a good buy. The deck has a simple plan so it is easy to pick up and play. And the equipment pieces are super good, especially the chest piece which I think will be worth some money. It reminds me of the pioneer monored challenger deck from Magic. And the Kayo deck seems way superior as a starting point design-wise and considering the experience you'll actually have playing it. I don't know about all the other tcg's, but 40 bucks isn't buying a lot more than that these days.

At least they're not reprinting the tunic.... right... I mean they're on pace to reprint tunic more times then MTG reprints sol ring so.... I guess there's that.....