This is a reupload of a video originally published in December 2021; I wasn't able to source as many images as I wanted for this one so there's not quite the usual number of pics. It's nice to have it published and accessible again!
"I tried to take the ring from Frodo. I am sorry. I have paid" in his head Boromir sees his attempt at taking the ring as treason that should earn him the death penalty. even if he had survived he would have been racked with guilt. dying in heroic defense of Merry and Pippen was indeed the best way out for him, even though it was heartrending
Very well said. Redemption through death is honestly the most tidy way to handle the subject, I mean Darth Vader same thing, he dies and we get to see him as redeemed without the uncomfortable reality that one good act doesn't erase 20 years of evil. Redemption for the living is a very difficult thing to tackle
Aragorn to Boromir after Boromir's trouble with Frodo: "Boromir! I do not know what part you have played in this mischief, but help now! Go after those two young hobbits, and guard them at the least, even if you cannot find Frodo." Two Books later, Aragorn is marching his army north from the Cross Roads getting closer to the Black Gate and the final hopeless battle. Some of his soldiers are becoming so fearful that they cannot continue. Aragorn to these men: "Go! But keep what honour you may, and do not run! And there is a task which you may attempt and so be not wholly shamed. Take your way south-west till you come to Cair Andros, and if that is still held by enemies, as I think, then re-take it, if you can..." I like the parallel between these two events. After the "failure of heart" of both Boromir and the soldiers, Aragorn gives them a task within their means allowing them to regain their honor.
That's an excellent connection - I think it's one reason Aragorn is deserving of all the hype he gets. Righteous king figures often have a tyrannical or myopic side; Aragorn demonstrates he can show mercy and compassion without compromising his moral standards.
🤣 Imagining Boromir needing to be bodily restrained from winding his horn after vanquishing any 'enemy' - from catching a fish for dinner, to killing a (small) spider, to finally scraping the last bit of greasy crust from Sam's pots....
When I was young I really didn't understand Aragorn's line about "Few have gained such a victory". It seems such a strange thing to say to someone who has (a) betrayed trust with Frodo, and (b) failed in defending Merry and Pippin. And even now it speaks of Aragorn's strangeness - that Aragorn has that sense of the numinous at work, a sense I think Farimir and Denethor also had, but which Boromir does not. Another thought that has just occurred to me, having also recently watched the reloaded video on oaths and curses, is that Aragorn's "Minas Tirith shall not fall!" is a death-bed promise to a dying companion who has just begged him to save his people. A more fateful setting for a promise is hard to imagine.
I agree, Aragorn seems remarkably chill to Boromir considering a mere chapter ago he was giving him a pretty good chewing out. But of course Aragorn gets it 🥲 anyone raised by Elrond would recognize when tragic dooms are afoot. I hadn't thought of that instance of oathery - that is a super cool connection! Especially since I'm increasingly convinced that one of the inevitable outcomes of a Faramir-in-the-Fellowship timeline is that Minas Tirith WOULD fall (it barely survives as it is). Aragorn was more right than he knew.
I've been catching up on your videos out of order. My mind wondered reading this exchange: what would the bad version of "Minas Tirith shall not fall" have been? The ironic, technically true, unfortunate version. Or perhaps if Faramir had gone instead and died instead -- one can imagine the orcs finding Frodo anyway and Faramir arriving to rescue him -- would not somehow see Aragorn saying those same words to Faramir and then somehow see Boromir ending up with one of the nine to protect his land and so it never falls but endures as a vassal state. I wonder if an alternate ending made up only of the "bad version" endings of oaths is logically possible and what it would be.
It could be that the victory is boromir letting the ring get away when he couldve easily slain frodo and took it. Also could be an example of aragorn's gift of foresight
Tolkien was so good at his craft that no matter what crazy what-if scenario we could ever come up with, it would always lead to a less satisfying ending.
well yeah but actually it was more Sauron's blunder than the good guys winning. It was so foolish not to leave 10 guards in mount doom or even block, trap the entrance to the lava pit
@@arisps17 why would he guard it? Sauron knows only a few of the Wise know enough about the One Ring to know where to destroy it. From his perspective, it is far more likely that they would try to hide it or use it. That they would attempt to destroy it is unthinkable for Sauron (because he cannot understand why anyone would reject such power). But assuming anyone would want to destroy the Ring, they'd have to somehow enter into Mordor without being noticed by Shelob, the Nazgûl or the thousands and thousands of stationed Orcs, not to mention Sauron's own vigilance. Such a feat was only ever accomplished by Frodo and Sam, and that only happened because they somehow met the one person who knew a way in: Gollum. To call this an unlikely turn of events would be putting it mildly. But most importantly, Frodo failed. He did not destroy the Ring, because no one in his position could have relinquished the Ring willingly. That's the final security of Mount Doom: once there, no one, not even Sauron, could willingly destroy the Ring.
@@LeHobbitFan Yeah i agree to all that but why would he sent the entire army to the black gate is the question? Only a fool would do that. It s clear that it was unnecessary.even a child would know not to send the entire army. Not in case that someone destroys the ring just some guards for whatever reason. Frodo and Sam could have sneak pass those and the plot would have been more believable
Another point to mention: It is said in the text that the other members of the fellowship likely would have fallen into the ring's temptation one by one. So had the fellowship not broken apart, with the power of the ring ever growing the nearer it got to Mordor, Legolas, Gimli and maybe even Aragorn would have tried to take the ring. The Boromir-scenario would thus have happened anyway and maybe would have had much worse consequences
The proverbial canary in a coal mine, the first to succumb to the invisible danger and alert everyone else of the peril. Though I imagine he would be appalled to be compared to a small fluffy bird....
I don't think Gimli would fall, since he is a dwarf and they are incredible resistant to corruption, so as long as he doesn't carry the ring he shouldn't succumb to it.
@@Shoundaime Dwarves can't be reduced to Wraiths like the Nazgul were and their wills are almost impossible to enslave. But nevertheless the seven rings had power over their minds and would fill them with greed. No doubt the One would have had the same effect. So Gimli would have fallen but you are right that the consequences of that would have been different
Boromir's death in the book and the movie makes this old man cry every time. Same with The Battle of Pellenor Fields. Not a little either, snot bubbles and tears running down my neck. Tolkien's reading is the hardest.
Probably Eru: *gives several visions to Faramir, implying he wants him to go to Rivendell and just 1 to Boromir just to be sure* Denethor: *sends Boromir* Eru: you weren't supposed to do that... Or were you?
It’s probably Ulmo, who is desperately giving more and more explicit instructions, only to be ignored. “What part of *leave Gondolin NOW* wasn’t I clear about?” “Faramir! go to Imladris! Faramir! FARAMIR!! Stop ignoring me! Look, will you listen if I send the dream to your big brother? All right, here we go. What? No! I didn’t mean for BOROMIR to leave! Oh for the love of all that’s squishy and wet… Orome, where did you put the aquavit? pass it over here.”
@@annafdd I'd say Ulmo sent Faramir the visions, but Eru provided Faramir the experience and thoughtfulness to doubt them, and discuss them with his big brother. That way, when Ulmo, in exasperation, sent the vision to Boromir, Boromir, with little inclination to doubt, and the strength of conviction to simply go, would go.
I think this highlights how Tolkien indeed wrote "grey" characters. Boromir was imperfect, and morally questionable at times, though I think ultimately a good and troubled man. Thanks for the interesting analysis.
@@tovick1643 I agree! I have had conversations with people and they often will bring up Aragorn as the other human. I always felt Aragorns long life, talent, and overall leadership capability always made him seem inhuman. Boromir was grounded and real. I really like Boromir
@@AverageCommentor Certainly. Though most people's exposure to Tolkien's character development comes from LOTR and so they aren't familiar with Feanor.
Boromir was troubled. Sauron was sitting at the gate almost ready to crush Gondor. Boromir loved his people. He wanted to look after them in exactly the same way as he did everything he could to save Merry and Pippin. There was nobody in the Fellowship more brave. Boromir did not run from the Balrog!
Even as a pre-teen I noted that the massage to "Seek for the sword that was broken..." came many times to Faramir but only once to Boromir. Made me think that Someone (Eru? The Valar?) preferred Faramir to Borimir and it was the free will of the brothers and Denethor that resulted in Boromir being chosen.
My personal opinion is that this is one of those cases where the Valar 'got it wrong' at first - after trying and trying to get Faramir moving north, they finally say what the heck, let's try the other one, and *whoosh,* Eru's plan can finally click into motion.
@@GirlNextGondor Faramir was more learned in lore than Boromir was. I am pretty sure he had an idea of what the dream meant. I am also pretty sure that Faramir knew that if he told his father about the dream and said that he was being called to Imladris, that his father would have thought he made it up just to get out of fighting. In any case, until Boromir had the same dream, Faramir was likely not going to say anything about his dreams to anyone. Once Boromir understood what the dream might be about, there was no stopping him. We can probably blame Denethor more than Faramir for Faramir's silence
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." It seems a recurring theme in Tolkien that the machinations of evil beings rebound back on themselves in unexpected ways and end up bringing about their own ruin and/or an advancement of good, it seems likely to me it was likely the Valar who sent the dreams to Faramir after choosing him as the more appropriate candidate, but everything leading up to Boromir going in Faramir's place was the result of Eru's subtle behind the scenes manipulation.
I don’t think that’s how the Valar work. The dream did not say “Faramir, you go“. We should remember that it would be entirely normal for Faramir to be more sensitive to “hearing the voice of the Valar”. I think that Boromir and Faramir were a closer-not team; the bond between them, being extremely strong, because of the early death of their mother, and the long grievance and despair of their father. Both brothers knew the desperate situation that Gondor was in; both were loyal and true men. Had they thought that the dream really meant that Faramir was called go, I think he would have gone.
Right. Tolkien's Middle-earth was a world where fate and premonition was important. Tolkien decided that Iluvatar decided that Boromir's *attack on Frodo* was necessary to give the individuals of the fellowship their correct paths from Parth Galen. Since redemption by sacrifice is a recurring theme in Tolkien's world view, he let Boromir redeem himself by defending Merry and Pippin from Orchs.
I love how the members of the fellowship give him a short but quite emotional farewell, calling him my friend Boromir, and even when Aragorn told them what he did before to Frodo, the truth reinforced their love and appreciation for him. I don't remember if Frodo ever had a moment where he found the courage and love to forgive him, after all he also succumbed to the temptation of the ring, even more deep than Boromir even did, and was for a mere coincidence he was saved.
I can't help but remember when Eru said that none could sing a song that did not have it's source in him, Boromir's failure may have seemed like it put the whole quest at risk, but really, if it didn't happen then Rohan, Gondor, and soon all of Middle Earth, would have fallen.
It's an example of a theme Tolkien likes and is widely using in his works. When bad things happen, even greater good follows and difficulties characters encounter are often essential to the completion of their quests.
One interesting thing I realized is that not that many characters actually die in LotR. At least not the central ones. But fact that two of the fellowship apparently die in the first book (Gandalf and Boromir) sets up the tension so well for the rest of the story. Similar to how the death of Ned Stark in GoT tells the audience that no one is safe, though to a lesser extent. I was kind of surprised to realize how few people actually die. Boromir is one of my absolute favorites. Painful as it is to acknowledge, his sacrifice is a pivotal part of why he is so important and lovable. If he hadn’t died for glory and redemption he wouldn’t be the same Boromir we all love. Seeing his decline and almost certainly darker date would be a travesty.
Another great bit of tension that is in the books, but missing from the film, is the seed of doubt Tolkien sows about Frodo's fate, at the end of Book V, when the Mouth of Sauron presents Gandalf with Frodo's mithril shirt and cloak. The approach taken by the films, of telling each main thread in parallel, while perhaps necessary for the different medium, does remove this tension, which is, I think, a shame.
@@Murdo2112. Yes, I would much preferred of they followed the storyline of the books, and made 6 movies. The build-up for the last movie would be insane, and they would also be able to fit a LOT more in.
It was kind of a mix between Boromir and Gollum playing their own parts, the former breaking up the group and the latter dropping the ring into Mount Doom by stumbling in once Frodo became too possessed by it.
It's impressive how many characters and events play a role that turns out to be crucial even if at the time it seemed minor! Really a mark of good plotting 😁
Currently, Boromir has had 88 arrows removed from his fate. Man alive, this video had a profoundly timeless effect on the past writing of a man long ago to have only three remaining at the end! XD
@@GirlNextGondor So, you're telling me the half hour I spent clicking the like button was nothing?! Do you have any idea what my index finger feels like?!
This makes me wonder why both Boromir and Faramir were given visions, and if indeed it was an act of free will on Boromir's part to go as opposed to fate. It seems like it. Maybe Faramir going also lead to a valid path for the quest to succeed. There are many times in the story where a free will choice between a good and evil option are posed with the implication that the evil choice leads to ruin, but in this case it seems like neither was evil and thus maybe both would fit in Eru's plan.
Steven from The Red Book said something I really liked when we talked about Morgoth about Eru being outside time, able to see all the possible ways the story could go and still able to recognize its 'shape' - like the difference between seeing a tree from a distance versus actually being an ant at the junction of two twigs. Some choices are clear-cut good and evil, but others are mixed. And of course even the bad choices - the branches that end in blight - can still be made part of the whole 'tree.' All of this is to say that fate and free will aren't necessarily opposing forces in this context. Technically we're told that everything in Middle-earth will have a 'good' ending ('good' here defined as a sort of cosmic benefit that might well involve absurd levels of suffering on the personal level). So Faramir-in-the-Fellowship could have had a good outcome - but it would have been a very different, and I think potentially more tragic one. The Boromir 'branch' seems the one best suited to achieve the Ring's destruction *without* sacrificing Gondor or Frodo.
@@GirlNextGondor That's a very insightful way of looking at it. Honestly I like the idea that the Faramir option would have been more tragic despite how it may seem. Boromir's decision to go came from a very good place in his heart, and decisions like that tend to be rewarded in Tolkien. He made a decision to take the danger upon himself to protect those he loves, and it seems like he did protect them. In some ways that really reminds me of how the outcomes of oaths occur. He may not have explicitly sworn one, but maybe the decision rang out like an oath in the same way as Frodo deciding to take the ring to Mordor.
In the history of composition, Tolkien had written Boromir's part all the way from the Council of Elrond to the Breaking of the Fellowship before he ever discovered Faramir's existence. I imagine Boromir was introduced, from the word go, for the sake of some event like his attack on Frodo. When Faramir came into the story, Boromir gained enough of a backstory to provide what you say about his motives and redemption.
I like your take about the role of the Gondor bro's in the overall plot. It's like Men of the West said in his own video about what would have happened if Faramir had gone to Rivendell rather than Boromir: yes, it would have gone better. Too wel, in fact. Gollum wouldn't have survived to bite of Frodo's finger and tumble into the fire, thus accidentally destroying the ring.
I know I can count on Yoystan to have already thought through anything Gondorian 😂 Even though I know his death is important to the narrative it doesn't keep me from wishing things could have gone otherwise!
@@GirlNextGondor Yeah, we all wish that. His flaws make him all the more interesting. And deep down, he is no doubt a brave boy. Otherwise, he certainly wouldn't have given his life in an attempt to fend of a small army. :(
I really appreciate that you bring in the matter of Boromir's soul at the end. Best to die in a state of grace, and for him to be in such a state of remorse, humility, and courageous, self sacrificial love at the end was the beat way to go.
I think I’ve always read Boromir’s motive for taking Faramir’s place as his pride at play again, in a sort of “I’m clearly the best man for the job” more than “I’d rather me be in danger than him.” Could be both as well, I suppose, but your reasons for taking it the best possible way are pretty compelling.
Catching up, and hopping that you're having an easy summer, dear Lexi! Needless you say, but your complete understanding of every context in the lore, always shows. Boromir's tale is truly bitter sweet. Very bitter, but the last note is one any character in such a tale could hope for. And ultimately, his mistakes made good possible. And now, it's time to sing the lament once more.
I literally just teared up at this freaking intersection at a red light listening to this. Audio only. But hearing about Eragon telling him this that he did it. Oh my gosh it’s just the best stuff. And then the kiss on the forehead.
I'm not sure if Tolkien actually thought about this when he wrote LotR. But it dovetails great with themes he probably did intend. It's pretty cool that lore analysis reveals things like this, which "accidently" support important themes. (It should go without saying that you are really good at this btw, great video 20/20 high energy)
I remember this one and I still have to disagree. My scenario goes as follows: With Faramir present (and more importantly Boromir being absent), the Fellowship avoids the Uruk-Hai at Amon Hen. Nonetheless, the time for a decision about the path for the Fellowship to follow has arrived. Both Aragorn and Faramir understand that taking the One anywhere near Denethor is a bad idea. So, it is time for Frodo to head to Mordor but obviously not by himself. Sam must go; there is no two ways about it. Eru would likely intervene if anything else is suggested. One other will go with them and it is Faramir. While not in the same class as Aragorn, Faramir is a super ranger and also knows a great deal of Ithilien and the surrounding areas. So, off they go and Gollum trails them but with Faramir there, he doesn't attack. Nonetheless, the three know he is there and at some point contrive to trap him. The net result of this even is that Gollum still ends up swearing the oath to Frodo as before. Perhaps Faramir knows a better way to sneak them into Mordor. Perhaps they still end up going by Cirith Ungol, in which case Faramir's presence allows them to avoid Frodo being attacked by Shelob and later captured by orcs. So, they are in Mordor sooner and in better shape than in the original timeline. Of course, they are still faced with massive armies in Mordor that they somehow have to get through to get to Mount Doom. Back on the west side of the Anduin, the rest of the Fellowship is intact. Merry and Pippin are of course mad as hell at not being allowed to go with Frodo but, as all the other boats would have to have been disabled, they have no way to follow him. Things can go on more or less as before but without the need to spend time chasing after Merry and Pippin as in the original timeline. Gandalf being Gandalf, he still meets up with them. Gandalf of course knows about the Ents so someone is sent to persuade them that it is time for them to play a part in the wider world again. Perhaps Legolas would be best. Aragorn of course wants to aid Gondor and the best way to do that is to bring Rohan into the fray. Again, because they are a little faster reaching this point in the timeline, victory over Saruman and Isengard is faster and with somewhat fewer losses. Matters proceed as they do before but again the Free Peoples are moving quicker. By the time the Witch King's army issues out of Minas Morgul and makes its way to the Pelennor fields the forces they are facing have been enhanced as follows: 1) Boromir is in command in the field and this is his strength so the forces at Minas Tirith are in better shape 2) The Rohirrim have arrived 3) Aragorn has already used the Army of the Dead to defeat the Corsairs and being reinforcements from Gondor's southern fiefs The result is a decisive victory at the Pelennor fields for the Free Peoples and quite possibly Boromir, Denethor, and Théoden all survive although I think Denethor is still no longer mentally competent. Of course, they still face the problem that there are still much more powerful armies in Mordor that they can't hope to defeat militarily. But the same plan to draw Mordor's armies out is still viable, opening the path to Mount Doom. Gollum will still make a last desperate attempt to seize the Ring back and end up falling into Mount Doom!
Interesting theory, though I see a few holes in it. None that completely sink it, but it's not as airtight as you present it. 1. I simply don't see the breaking of the Fellowship happening that easily and smoothly. Given the oaths they had all taken, and the deep comradery of the Hobbits. The emotional will simply wouldn't be there - for any of them - especially without Boromir's fall, as Lexi said. And Eru would definitely NOT likely intervene. He's not in the habit of doing that. He's only done it twice in all of history, both times at the absolute climax of the issue at hand. When the Numenoreans actually set foot in the Blessed Realm, and when the Ring was literally inside Mount Doom, centimetres away from falling into the lava (and even Eru's involvement in the second case is debated). I simply don't see him intervening at such a point in the quest. 2. Trapping Gollum is an incredibly difficult task. Aragorn and Gandalf spent months trying to track and capture him. I highly doubt that Frodo, Sam, and Faramir could accomplish the same feat, especially while avoiding orcs and other enemies, and making sure they still made solid progress towards Mordor. 3. On a similar note, Faramir 'maybe knowing another way' into Mordor is highly speculative, as is his ability to magically get them all safely past Shelob, the orcs, and the Watchers. 4. Without the same level of desperation, if the Rohirrim were much better prepared and on time, Aragorn probably wouldn't have taken the risk of recruiting the Army of the Dead. This may or may not have significantly changed the outcome of the Battle of Pelennor Fields as it is in the book, but it would make it not quite the cake-walk you present it as.
@@KeppyKep Thanks for the comments. Here are my thoughts on your thoughts. 1) I didn't seriously mean that Eru would intervene. In this case, it comes down to Frodo needing Sam in a way that he didn't need Merry or Pippin and Sam really would have been lost without Frodo. In the chapter The Ring Goes South, it is clear the Fellowship is not all bound to go to Mordor. My belief is that Aragorn would have come to the conclusion that it was time for the Fellowship to split and we are about a true descendant of Elendil and the true heir in every way to the throne of Gondor. He had the will to make this happen and I believe Frodo would have agreed with him. 2) There's a big difference in these two scenarios. In the first, Gollum was trying to avoid being capture by anyone and certainly had no reason to be trying to follow either Gandalf or Aragorn. In the second, Gollum is trying to following the ring bearer. That automatically makes him more vulnerable. 3) Yes, finding another way into Mordor is speculative but certainly within the realm of possibility for someone as familiar with that area as Faramir. As far as going through Cirith Ungol goes, while it was certainly a dicey thing, Frodo and Sam did ultimately manage it. I think it is reasonable to conclude that Faramir's presence would have made it not so daunting. 4) On this one, I just disagree. Aragorn knew Minas Tirith would need all the aid it could get. Using the Army of the Dead was a logical way to do that. Also, I didn't mean for it to sound like it would have been a cake-walk. It would still have been a hard fight but I don't think the Witch-King's army reaches the gates of the city.
No matter how many times i return to the LoTr it just always brings up the warm feelings inside. And details like these is reason why, everything makes sense the good and the bad alike. True stoicism.
It's fun having you re-release these videos. They're high quality and thoughtful enough that I'm really enjoying going through them again and getting to discuss them again.
Well Faramere being knowledgeable in lore might have actually known that kartharas would not let elf or dwarf past. So kartharas might have been completely avoided. Also he might have given aragorn some confidence in leading the group stealthily through the gap of Rohan as there would have been two ranger helping the group to avoid sight. Plus Hobbits are naturally stealthy. Still I think Boramier was required to help break the party and get everyone to go and fill the roles they would play.
I wonder how much Denethor knew of the relationship Elrond had with the descendants of Valandil, or wished to prevent Faramir from visiting Rivendell, where Gandalf was known to frequent.
I like to imagine a scenario where if Faramir had gone instead, almost everything would have happened the same up to the point of Boromir and Frodos confrontation. Instead of lashing out like his brother, Faramir seeks out Frodo to tell him to leave. His heart would be troubled upon leaving Lorien, because his vision is similar to Boromirs. He has his "A chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality" moment. But there's am added twist. Faramir is learning quickly just how true it is that Aragorn is the true king, and his respect for him grows faster than it does with Boromir. However since Gandalfs fall, he is also increasingly aware that Aragorn is taking more responsibility for the success of the mission. If Aragorn goes with Frodo, all will be lost. So with a heavy heart, knowing full well that his future king whom he respects will consider him a failure just like his father for his betrayal, Faramir talks Frodo into leaving on his own. Everything else plays out almost exactly how it does. Faramir gets back, he argues with Aragorn who is bewildered by his choice, and the Fellowship scatters. Aragorn chastises Faramir to go after Merry and Pippin, and he dies the same way. I even think he blows the Horn of Gondor, which was secretly given to him by his brother. Fast forward to RotK, and Boromir is devastated by the loss of his little brother. He blames himself for not insisting on going in his stead, but this begins a crack in his relationship with Denethor. Denethor doesn't show proper grief for the loss of a son, and Boromir is furious that Denethor is more upset about the broken horn than his own sons death. This leads Boromir down his own character growth where he realizes his brother was the better man, and rather than be the bellicose war captain, he learns to be more like Faramir. This further widens the crack between him and his father, who in his anger orders the suicidal counterattack on Osgiliath. We all know what happens after.
Half way through I knew where you were going and agree completely. Remember what Gandalf said to Frodo, that he was destined to have it. (Paraphrasing). One could say the same of Boromeir, that he was destined to "Break" the fellowship .
Thank you for the video. I just discovered your content, but I have already begun to love your take on things, your understanding of why things had to be the way they were. I also think the death of boromir is made more poignant by the lament that Aragorn and legolas sing for him as he passes over the falls. The performance by clamavi de profundis really sells it. I love the character and I hate that he had to die, and though it is cold comfort I will take solace in the fact that he died an honorable man still. I hope you have a blessed day.
That image at 9:45: "Go ahead, put on the Ring. You KNOW you want to! It's good for what ails you, after all! Just put the Ring on and we'll take GOOD care of you!"
All very interesting to ponder but the whole point was that fate was always guiding people's actions. It was fate that Gandalf ran into Thorin at the Pony which led to Bilbo finding the ring etc. It was fate that brought all the peoples of Middle Earth together in Rivendell to decide what to do about the ring. It was fate that Gollum should be waiting at the western door in Moria just when the ring arrives. It was fate that Gandalph should meet Aragorn in the forest as the three were searching for the hobbits. It was fate that Pippin should stir the orcs in Moria so that the attack would lead to Gandalf falling and then rising to become the white wizard. No matter how people acted it was fated that the ring should be destroyed.
I agree in part - fate is definitely acknowledged as important in how things played out. Tolkien elsewhere proposed at least the *possibility* that the destruction of the Ring was 'fated'. But decisions still matter in how such 'fated' moments are achieved. Otherwise it would not be so important that (say) multiple characters chose to have pity on Gollum, or that Gandalf, having run into Thorin 'by chance,' managed to convince him to take Bilbo on. Tolkien even throws out the idea that Frodo's role as Ring-bearer, though 'intended,' was contingent on Bilbo's freely made decision to surrender the Ring voluntarily; upon inheriting the Ring Frodo's quest became 'fated' but its outcome, and the *manner* of its outcome, wasn't necessarily predetermined. Even as the White, Gandalf observes that bad decisions have consequences, even when certain 'fated' outcomes still get achieved through other means. Denethor's breakdown and Pippin's decision to ask Gandalf to save Faramir means that Gandalf doesn't ride out to face the Witch-king. He's still defeated by Merry and Eowyn (Gandalf would also have met the 'no man' condition), but in the process lots of Rohirrim die, perhaps unnecessarily (Eowyn's wounding triggers Eomer's ill-advised death-charge). The Witch-king still gets defeated either way, but things might have been better for some people if Denethor had made different choices, both in the moment and leading up to it (eg perhaps his mental health would have been better if he had avoided using the Palantir so much).
I've been watching several of your videos while working on a sewing project, and I've often found myself pausing my work and focusing on what you're talking about instead - your analysis and use of the text is so interesting!! Subscribed (and will likely be watching many more of your backlog as I continue this project haha)
I still ball my eyes out every single time I re-read/ Watch Borimir death. He really DID have to die for everything to work out. I'd never considered that before 🤔. Wonderful analysis of Tolkien's work! I'm loving your channel. 🤘😁🖖🇨🇦( After thought, I subscribed and rang the bell ❤️).
My interpretation is that Fate (the subtle guidance of Eru) would have found another way to make the Fellowship succeed whether Boromir chose poorly or not.
Aragorn shows more of his great leadership by assigning Boromir his task and using it as penance. He spoke to Boromir in a language he understood with well timed words. He knew Boromir felt awful for his deeds and giving him the smallest among them to protect(as substitutes for Frodo) and to remember his fight against the enemy was about as good as it could have gotten. Boromir makes Aragorn better, being heir to the second highest office of Gondor and being a reminder of the kingdom he must reclaim. Boromir, second maybe to Gandalf is what drives Pippin towards living for more than simple pleasures and on to greatness. His bond with Boromir makes him unable to let Faramir be burned alive. It might be nice to see the characters who really help develop the hobbits, including the other hobbits. I don't go in much for what if scenarios except as a joke, but if Boromir lives, Gandalf never finds the Fellowship and they all get eaten by Shelob who in turn takes the ring, and using what she's actually learned of Sauron's manipulation renames herself Fungoliant and then tricks middle earth into letting her eat everything except Tom Bombadil and Goldberry who jump onto Earendil's ship and turn it into an arboretum in space. There. That's my fan theory.
Adding a little to the what-if scenario: If the Company with Faramir gets to Lothlórien, Aragorn would have had someone to lean on. Faramir could have played the role that Aragorn played to Gandalf before Durin's Bane. Faramir and Aragorn could have decided between them that the family of the steward should go in the king's place where he could not, and so one goes to Minas Tirith's aid and the other with Frodo. Then Frodo's wrench away from the company comes when they encounter Boromir leading a major incursion east of the Anduin. But that, of course, leaves the Rohirrim fighting Isengard without all the help they received, and probably a delay in the Ents cornering Saruman. And the dominos keep falling from there.
I was gonna like the video but I would never dishonor my boys sacrifice like that..... every arrow is the price of his redemption for falling under the sway of the one ring for but a moment
A fantastic video, I still maintain though that I am not so certain that Boromir would have ended up vying with Aragorn, I think that once his pride shattered he might well have made his way towards becoming a better, humbler man by nature. Though there is certainly the possibility of Boromir becoming once again the 'arse' we all know and love and to have caused Aragorn trouble.
I wonder what Tolkien would've thought of the Twilight reference. Come to think of it, what would Tolkien think of Twilight? I can hear him going "What?! What?! Sparkly vampires what?!"
Now I'm imagining the Inklings trying to read Twilight over beers in a pub, breaking down in hearty guffaws. Thank you for one of the few mental images of Tolkien reacting to modern culture that does not depress me 😂
A puddle of water contemplates the fortune it struck, to find a such a hole that fits its shape precisely..... alas, if only that puddle knew water's shape is always in motion. Such is the nature of fate as well, and though it may seem removing one knot from the tapestry causes it all to be unmade, there is no telling what else would transpire. Assuming all other events remain unchanged is folly. Faramir's presence in Imladris could have consequences unforeseen, for better or for worse, but to dub that one act of Boromir salvation as the pivot point of the entire quest line holds only and only if the way the story unfolded was the only way the quest could succeed. But is it? I think not even the wise could see all ends...
Truthfully, I dont want to remove any arrows from Boromir's chest. It was fighting on with three or four arrows in his chest in the Bakshi version that first made me like Boromir! And one of the moments that that I think Bakshi outdid Jackson.
Boromir took Faramir’s place in the Fellowship. It was supposed to be him, the dream telling him to seek for the sword that was broken came to Faramir every night but only once to Boromir. And when Faramir had the chance to take the ring he resisted it, if he’d been in the fellowship it wouldn’t have broken.
Well, this was a bit of a journey. At the outset, I was thinking that Faramir would have been a far better member of the Fellowship; and would have served as a better guide than Gollum (except perhaps in finding a way through the Dead Marshes). However, with Frodo's ultimate failure at the Sammath Naur, the quest was achieved only through Sméagol's wresting of the Ring from Frodo. And your point about Sméagol never being in a position to be "tamed" had the party been larger than just two hobbitses is a good one. And those two hobbitses were able to creep across Gorgoroth to Orodruin because they were just two hobbits. Had Faramir, Aragorn, or any of the other members of the Fellowship, been with them, that journey might gave been impossible. So, it comes back to Boromir's failure to resist the power of the Ring being an essential step in the success of the quest. This puts me very much in mind of the Music of the Ainur : each time Melkor tried to forge his own theme, Eru's themes shifted just enough to accommodate Melkor's as if they were meant to be intertwining so.
If my experience from tabletop is any guide picking Faramir over Boromir gets you stuck in Moria unless you exchange one or more hobbits for a might hero like Elrond, Glorfindel or Dain.
I discovered your channel back on Tolkien Reading Day. I generally like your videos, but since I'm not wholly familiar with your views on the legendarium I find one thing off-putting. You mention eucatastrophe, but then seem to dismiss it as "convenient". Is there a video I can view that may give me a better understanding of your perspective? Keep up the good work!
Thanks! I'm glad you've enjoyed the channel! I can see how I might come across as dismissive in this video - I think what’s happening is that I’m trying to forestall any arguments about the merits of ‘eucatastrophe’ and/divine intervention by making a few jokes about them. In this video I didn’t have room to argue for or against eucatastrophe as such - I only wanted to show that thinking about the different ways the story ‘could have gone’ wasn’t a pointless exercise, but had bearing on Tolkien’s literary goals and techniques. I’m still developing my understanding of eucatastrophe - I think it’s a more complex concept than it appears - but I know it came up when I was a guest on TolkienLore’s channel to discuss Michael Moorcock’s essay criticizing Tolkien: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-p2kNO7Uy-QU.html Otherwise I think the closest I get in the videos I currently have posted is when I discuss fate and free will, which often seem to be the instruments of eucatastrophe - so you might want to check out Oaths and Curses or The ‘Curse’ of Turin if you haven’t yet. What you’ll probably notice on my channel generally is that I often crack jokes about things I do sincerely respect or care about 😅 It comes from a place of affection and I almost never intend real offense, but I'll be the first to admit it's not to everyone's taste.
@@GirlNextGondor I did see your Turin video, but unfortunately haven't found enough free time to watch the video on Oaths all the way through. Thank you for the insight! I'll enjoy your videos more knowing some "jibes" are tongue in cheek.😄
I shall heed the call of the horn, and drop a like! Also, a thought... But with both brothers alive, would they have had a foiling effect on one another, in the end? Would Faramir have died himself at the hornburg, or would Gondor have been worse for the absence of his rangers?
I don't think Faramir would have went with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. Had they avoided that orc patrol in Amon Hen, they would have had the time to split up under better terms. In that case, I would expect Faramir to go with Frodo and Sam as a bodyguard.
A re-watch I'm very happy to do :D Love this video, it's an interesting topic, and very well argued. I just have one bit of (hopefully) constructive feedback: in my opinion, the 'snow' effect you put over the pictures was a bit much. I know it's important in a video to always have some movement (the zooming was good at doing that), but having exactly the same effect overlayed across all the different images felt off to me.
There COULD have been other motivations to send Frodo off on his own...with Sam.. to cross into Mordor ... but I fail to see where it would come from that would be as impactful as seeing firsthand the evil of the ring and the need to destroy it at all costs. Boromir is the classic tragic hero. His one flaw is his doom...but unlike MOST tragic heroes, Boromir is given time to repend and be forgiven before he dies. And that's the best fate open to Boromir.
The fact that his death actually ends up accomplishing some *good* makes his end a far better one than, say, Turin's 😬 Gandalf, of course, has the perspective to recognize this after his re-aliving, but I imagine it must have been very unsettling for the 3 Hunters to hear him refer to Boromir's fate as 'escaping in the end.' Like, if that's what escape looks like, how gnarly must the worst-case scenario be??
@@GirlNextGondor If you want to see the end without escape, just look at Smeagle's death. He died still in the overwhelming grip of the One Ring. There was no redemption arc....just a modicum of a respite, then, ultimately, a gruesome death. Ironically, this saves Frodo, but this is accidental, so Smeagle doesn't get the credit. Bilbo, then Frodo, do.
So, after detailed explaining WHY Boromir´s death was not only crucial for the success of the Fellowship, but also the best for him AND the reign of Aragorn, you want to use your immense powers to create through our support a protection against arrows, which would allow Boromir to "simply walk into Mordor" by himself? You have my thumb! ;P
@@GirlNextGondor The aneurysms would simply streamline things for Boromir. With his father's ear and the host of Gondor at his beck and call, there would have been little to stop him attempting to take the ring by force, which would have been a disaster all the way around. This is especially true if Gandalf hadn't resurrected yet from fighting the balrog.
(1) No human could have withstood the lure of the ring, not Faramir, not Aragorn. (2) The large party would have drawn attention to itself approaching and in Mordor. Two little hobbits all alone had a much better chance. (3) It was virtually essential that Saruman and Sauron should mistake Merry and Pippin for the two hobbits bearing the ring. After that Sauron focused all his attention on Merry and Pippin, whom he assumed had the ring, and hoping he could get Saruman to cough it up before he claimed it for himself. The thought that these were not the hobbits with the ring never entered the mind of Saruman or Sauron, and thus they served as indispensable decoys. (4) Aragorn's decision to reveal himself to reveal himself in the palantir to Sauron was a master stroke, and as crucial as any act that took place. First of all, by using the palantir Aragorn revealed to Sauron that he had somehow managed to overcome Saruman, and Sauron would have assumed that he also had taken control of the hobbits and the ring they bore. This threw Sauron into a frenzy, in terror that Isildur's heir would learn how to control the ring within a few months, which forced him to attack Gondor without his full might. Master stroke! Then after the costly victory at Minas Tirith, Aragorn once again tried to call out Sauron by marching to his gates. On both occasions, Aragorn was motivated by the same agenda: force Sauron to empty Mordor of as many Orcs as possible, so that Frodo had a clear path to Mt. Doom. The contribution Aragorn made by these two decisions helped the quest a million times more than the feeble his (if not negative) that his accompaniment of Frodo to Mordor would have contributed.
I'm of a similar opinion about Gandalf and the Balrog, if Gandalf was still with the Fellowship, Boromir never would have dared go after Frodo, Frodo never would have left the group with Gandalf still there, and the Orcs would have captured them all, even all 9 of them couldn't have defeated those Orcs, they'd have been captured and Saruman would have the ring, he would never be reincarnated as Gandalf the white, Saruman with the ring may gain the Nazgul as servants (though probably not fully, since Sauron still held their rings), but he would still lose to the might of Mordor, though he might have been able to use Boromir as a hostage to gain Gondor's aid in attacking first, but I doubt Boromir would let himself be used like that, he'd die first.
boromir gave up his life for his friends. a highly noble death, written by one of such a strong christian faith, where selflessness is one of the highest gifts from God. one cant read tolken with out seeing his faith
I did like this. Even though I didn't want to take away any of his glory away. So many arrows.it would have truly been incredible to see his final stand.
