Extra information on why I don't recommend cutting through cheese, hard bread, etc: While we eat a lot of cheese in the West, the Japanese people with the old tradition don’t consume cheese or dairy. With the fusion and modernization of countries, you slowly see more and more diary in Japan (Pizza, Pasta, etc.). You now see that Japanese knives are adapting to the western cuisines; (western handle design thicker knife, cladding compared to the traditional Japanese knives and single bevels) This knife, particularly (60 HRC), should be able to go through hard cheese. The problem is that high Rockwell knives around 61+ have longer edge retention but sacrifice durability. So an accidental twist combined with a thin edge and high Rockwell (even 60HRC) will result in an increased rate of chipping due to improper use. Soft cheese causes a problem too since the softer cheese clings onto the knife, and the thin cutting edge cant handle the drag and will get multiple stress fractures. Hard cheese, if accidentally twisting the knife while the knife was still in the cheese block, can cause chipping. To avoid multiple stress fractures around the blade, they have added softer cladding to protect the core. But this also means that you should not use the knife to crush the garlic, especially if done in high volume or tenderize meat with those kinds of knives. The multiple stress fracture will build up over time, and especially knives without cladding can suddenly break. Meanwhile, softer knives like the german chef’s knives are softer, around 58 Rockwell or lower, which can handle any abuse. The edge will roll rather than chip or break, but it sacrifices edge retention/sharpness for the increased durability since it is softer. To reduce drag on soft cheese, you have cheese knives with holes so that the cheese won’t cling to the blade. For this reason alone, I always have a beater knife (a cheap knife with soft steel). When I’m at home, I don’t always cook occasionally, I have a frozen pizza, and I don’t have a pizza cutter, so I use my softer cheap knife to cut through it. I basically use it on things that I will never slice or cut with a high carbon thin Japanese-styled knife. Hope that this explains why I advise against going through the cheese and other hard food. As with bread, the hard crust is unpredictable and sometimes can be very hard, therefore they have a serrated bread knife with an asymmetrical grind. The teeth bite in the crust and the asymmetrical design adds durability and will saw through the softer layer. Extra information about breaking rate/stress fracture: Using high HRC blades to crush garlic, nuts, etc. The stress can be distributed by using the side of the blade near the spine/handle. Blade construction has a major effect on strength/durability. Western knives are most commonly mono-steel (one layer) so they are often limited to hardness below 60. Even premium steels are risky above 60 in a mono construction. -True Damascus. Multi-layer construction with no discrete core material. This is generally not as strong as other constructions since there are multiple stress risers on the cutting edge. There is a legend that some of these old Damascus blades were “nearly unbreakable” but I doubt that they would compare to modern steels. There is an interesting modern take on this construction using 2 different stainless materials. San Mai (3-layer) with a hard core and softer (and usually more stain-resistant outer core). These blades can have a practical hardness limit above 60. A subset of San Mai is modern Damascus. These are really a 3 layer construction with a hard core and multi-steel outer layers Honyaki (differential heat treated mono-steel). These can be hardened above 60 but generally are not as desirable as San Mai for ultimate hardness/strength. Most tough blades are layered construction such as San Mai. I’m a fan of San Mai construction as it can reduce the stress on the hard core. Exceeding stress limit is what leads to failure. In bending or torsion; stress is proportional to strain and strain is proportional to thickness. The thinner the hard steel is the more it can be bent before the stress limit is exceeded. This is why you can make a flexible glass cable. Each fiber is so thin that the strain is reduced and the stress limit isn’t exceeded. If the same diameter cable was made from solid glass it would have almost zero strain limit. It would be very stiff and require a high force to bend. But if bent even the slightest bend will likely cause a fracture. T I M E S T A M P S 00:00 - Video introduction 00:13 - Disclosures 00:34 - Rockwell Hardness 01:00 - Japanese knives 01:20 - Thinner knife 01:47 - Hardness & Cladding 02:07 - Brittleness 02:17 - Cladding 02:27 - Sharpened angle 02:50 - Durability 03:21 - Wrong usage/what not to do 03:27 - Excessive force, Frozen Food, Bones 03:48 - Scraping on the cutting board 04:04 - Twisting the blade 04:13 - Don't cut cheese 04:30 - Only suggestions 04:41 - Maintenance & care 04:54 - Single Bevel
As long as you are careful with it and don't force or twist your way through you should be fine most of the time. I personally won't chop/cut through the cheese. (impact is the cause of most of the damage + twisting/torsion). But everything is just a suggestion what others do with their knives is up to them :)
@@chefpanko Agreed, I was initially very wary of using such a knife to do these tasks, but it has done extraordinarily well - cheese, butter, pumpkin and cutting around/deboning chicken and turkey! I'd bought it to fulfill a 'cleaver' type role, and it certainly does the business. No chips so far (several years), which I attribute to a good heat treatment (61 HRC) and not too slender geometry. Also I am being as careful as possible - despite choosing a somewhat abusive role for it!
@@markir9 Have you changed the sharpened angle on them, very curious about that. When I know I will use the knife for more daunting tasks, I tend to higher the sharpening angle for added edge durability. As most of those artisan knives come with an angle of around 12°. I noticed that the angle highly impacts edge retention and not only durability. Lower Rockwell knives tend to have better edge retention with a higher angle (sure, you lose some of the initial first bite/sharpness). But hats off for you. I simply can't and will not do certain things with my artisan knives (my heart can't take it :P the knife may be able to, but I personally can't). And one of the reasons why I have a beater knife beside the artisan for other tasks. My guide on the angles I prefer on a certain knife style and Rockwell hardness for added context: www.chefpanko.com/best-sharpening-angle-for-kitchen-knives/
Best video I've seen on this specific topic. People need to know that those scraping and twisting motions can chip an expensive knife on the first use. No bones, no frozen food. Have multiple knives at hand for different ingredients. Thanks CP.
This is a really excellent video to explain why "premium"/exotic steel knives need care and should not be used/abused like a typical Western chef knife. Very well done and explained. Thank you.
Saw the title and just had to click. I had also been a little afraid of chipping and rusting when I got my new Shibata Kotetsu. Never had a more delicate knife before. Needed a few days before I treated it like a real knife :D
It would help to demonstrate the proper cutting technique for Japanese knives. You were clear on what not to do it just could have helped to show more cutting it right. Explain why thinner, harder, sharper is better and for what. Enjoyed your video as so many leave bad reviews on Japanese knives without ever knowing why they are designed the way they are. Love my Japanese knife it’s such a joy to use too.
Excellent reminder! Love it! This subject is one of the reason why I only share my german knives with others (taking care of wooden handle and keeping the knife dry after use is another two reasons) 😂😂😂
haha, I have done the same. My cheaper/softer steel knives are the ones I borrow others when they forget their knife roll (because they did complete maintenance at home).
Really intresting topic. I am a outdoorsman I spend a lot of time working with knives. I never had any big problem with japanese knives maybe because I handle them properly I dont know. A lot of people doing crazy things witk knives theyre using as a screwdriver or a crowbar and thats not good. You did not mention but some japanese knife steels like the AUS series are really close to the western knives. They dont brittle and the edge tends to roll instead of chip. I have a laminated VG-10 blade which is really easy to chip. If you hit a rock accidently It is no way you dont have chips but at least It does not break. For me as a hunter and outdoorsman a well made Uddeholm Sleipner steel is a way superior than any else I have experienced. They are around 60-62 rockwells but they are tough like hell. Once I dropped it on blacktop and only a few minor damages appaered. So I believe there are some good ballanced steels with edge retention and toughness. You need to try a lot...
I can only speak for kitchen knives as outdoor/pocket knives are completely different. But I agree improper use is the culprit in most chipped knives. And indeed, testing and trying what works for you is the only way to get a kitchen knife that suits your preference, but to find what works, you sometimes need to test a lot.
I loved the video, it was exacly what I was looking for; your knives are also awesome, but man, I'm thristy for that cutting block, it looks so awesome!!!
It is an ''Eden Quality Cuttingboard'' from knivesandtools. In my newer videos, I have switched to the Zassenhaus cutting board oak wood 54x30x4 cm (also ordered from knives and tools). I enjoyed using the Eden one, but switched to Zassenhaus they are both big and heavy so it is not easy to grab or clean but need some proper setup like a non-slip matt underneath (a damp towel is fine too). Things like a quick frozen pizza and slicing it, I personally prefer something light quick, and easy to clean (I use the Asahi Synthetic Rubber Cutting Board off-camera but they are expensive). Those bigger cutting boards are specially used for bigger tasks/prep work or for videos.
My 63 rockwell gyuto has lasted me well over a decade working in restaurant kitchens. Admittedly it now resembles a petty (and recently has semi-retired, lives in my home kitchen) but is still going strong. Chips n lost tips are inevitable in their journey, just learn along the way how to repair and thin the blade and carry on
Yeah I F-upped my first Japanese knife and it was quite a journey in learning how to maintain/repair. When I still worked in the restaurant I have came across a lot of knife where normally you would say they abused the knife but in reality they took great care of it and the knife they use are still going strong after 15+ years but they are no longer a Gyuto. I even have seen my collique hammering and chipping away parts of his wooden handles knives since he was not happy with the comfort it provided for his personal taste. It looks very rough but I have to say I found his solution more comfortable than the original (it looks scuffed tho). But once I got all the ins and out most of the knives I get now pretty much don't chip with a few exceptions of imported knives from Japan. (hence why they offer a free sharpening service upon purchase or add an extra free service when you buy a knife they ask you to wait 20/1 hour since they going to prepare the edge if you request it since the factory edge was not applied or just too steep etc).
Good points and non knife examples of brittleness vs strength. Even single bevel deba hocho made for tough jobs are single purpose and based on technique, bad technique regardless of knife will damage it. Thank You Chef!
You are the first I've seen who recognizes that knife steel fractures. "Chips" are spots where fractures have completely surrounded a little piece of steel. For every chip, there may still be more fractures in the metal in that area.
Thanks for another gem of a video. I have a couple of questions: 1 Would you say that stainless steel knives are more brittle for the same hardness as pure carbon steel knives? I ask because I see a lot of very hard carbon steel knives around. 2 If a blade will chip just by scraping on a cutting board, won't it also chip while sharpening with a rod? It seems to me the mechanism involved is similar.
You're welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed the video. Now, regarding your questions: 1: Generally speaking, stainless steel knives tend to be less brittle compared to pure carbon steel knives of the same hardness. This is because stainless steel contains a higher amount of chromium, which enhances its corrosion resistance but also contributes to its toughness. Carbon steel knives, on the other hand, have a higher carbon content, which can make them harder but potentially more brittle. I would say that it depends more on the overall blade anatomy and the heat treatment a knife gets. A proper heat-treated knife will have better ductility but there are some structural changes in certain knife steel. There are reasons for a manufacturer to not aim for a certain Rockwell hardness as it will decrease ductility for certain steel types. Another factor for the manufacturer is the end user as the higher you go it would be harder to resharpen it on a certain whetstone (in some cases the knives are hardened to a hardness where a normal soaking whetstone won't be able to resharpen the knife without dishing out entirely where a diamond or diamond coated abrasion is needed or preferred If I'm correct Zwilling had a Diamond coated knife where they could not offer a sharpening service due to that added coating). Metucullary speaking stainless should be more ductile than High Carbon but the trade-off would be that some stainless simply can't reach a certain hardness. However, you also have powdered steel, which can be hardened to the same higher Rockwell as a High Carbon steel with all the benefits of being stainless and far more ductile. 2: You are absolutely right the main difference is that with a Sharpening rod, you have the choice of the rod material that can minimize the risk factors. Other than that you also will need to have the proper technique on the rod to get a good effect. This includes maintaining a correct angle and applying consistent controlled pressure and speed. Other than that there is not much you can do to a knife that is already bound to chip ie; the condition of the cutting edge was already poor such as having nicks or damages across the blade which can contribute to the knife edge being chipped during your honing session on a rod. For those you need a maintenance session and not a honing session on a rod, so a full new sharpening session to recreate a new edge on a whetstone is your best option. With food scrapping most of them do it, because it is fast and convenient they won't be thinking about scraping with the edge angle but do it at a far higher almost straight angle. The unpredictability of the speed and especially torq/twisting/applied pressure result in far more accidents than you would think. In those cases, a softer stainless steel knife might be the best option for those end users and it would not be recommended for those to opt for a higher Rockwell knife. The biggest difference is the unpredictability of scraping foos some knives as explained in #1 are far more ductile while they wont chip or damage the edge they will roll the edge therefore the cutting performance is decreased less sharp or getting far faster dull compared to someone that does not scrape with the cutting edge. And unpredictability of sand of certain food like veggies if you don't pre-wash them and wash them after you have cut them can be another factor of added unnecessary impact on the knife edge resulting in microchips (ie; ''my blade ''insert expensive Japanese branded handmade knife name'' micro-chipped and I was extremely careful and hand wash my blade all the time and hand dry it, is it due to poor heat treatment?). Accidents can happen minimizing the risk is key in why a Honing rod is effective but also not recommended on single bevel knives as it will destroy the anatomically crafted single bevel edge. I also recommend a ceramic rod over a Diamond coated rod, a random stainless steel rod would not be effective on a High Rockwell knife as those were created for soft stainless steel. Diamond-coated rods are sometimes very rough which can result in microchipping if your techniques are off or the condition of the edge was poor to start with. Hope that this reply answered your questions feel free to ask more.
Thank you. I heard from someone else saying you could scrape food off the board but I was quite skeptical about it so I never did it. What you said makes more sense. Western chef knife tolerate more abuse but I wouldn't do any of that on a knife I care about. I can still shave with soft steel even after several days of use at home. If I want to abuse the knife with frozen food or meat with bones I use a cheap blade that I don't like.
Yeah, it really depends on the knife design and Rockwell hardness/ steel-type. Each knife has its own strength and downsides. Want longer edge retention than a higher Rockwell is better, but it will become more brittle the higher you go. Want a more durable knife? Then you should go for a thicker knife, which takes away from the smooth cutting experience that you get with the Japanese artisan knives. While they can tolerate it well, I won't use too much force. Knives with a Rockwell of around 60/61 should do fine if you don't apply too much force. A Rockwell of 57/58 I would not worry too much. A Rockwell of 56 or lower, if you apply too much force, the edge will rollover, making the knifeless sharp. While a lower Rockwell won't chip or microchip, the knife will bend over if you apply too much force.
@@chefpanko Thanks, I'm waiting for my Xinzuo VG 10 to arrive. Got one for my dad and decided to buy the same one. Seems really good and I'm sure edge will last longer on it.
@@thiago.assumpcao I'm happy so far with what Xinzuo delivers. Their VG10 is the Chinese VG10, also called 10cr15comov. So far, when the knife heat treatment is done correctly, the ''10cr15comov'' sits in between AUS10, VG10. Sharpness ranking: #1 - VG10 #2 - 10cr15comov #3 - AUS10 Durability: #1 AUS10: More Durable than VG10 but less sharp and slightly less edge retention. #2 10cr15comov: sits directly in the middle. #3 VG10: Slightly sharper than AUS10 but slightly less durable but slightly more edge retention. However, ease of sharpening ranking: #1 - VG10 #2 - AUS10 #3 - 10cr15comov *only if the 10cr15comov heat treatment was done correctly as I have seen some that performed way below what they advertised with and nowhere close to the above ranking.
@@chefpanko I noticed the 10Cr15Comov edge got a patina on the first use. Can I store stainless steel knifes in a leather sheath or does it rust like with carbon steel?
Thanks for providing context. These talking points were spot on. The note about cutting cheese was very informative. If you do a follow up, I'd be curious to learn more about the differences between edge retention and durability between carbon and stainless steel.
@@chefpanko - Make sure you explain ductility (plastic deformation ), it's one of the most important aspects/differences between steels. The less ductile a steel is, the more the chance of the steel failing when attempting a specific action.
Question, Chef: for German and Japanese (60+ hrc) knives, how often would you recommend whetstone sharpening if I use my knife for daily home cooking and I maintain them with regular honing sessions? I have 400/1000/3000 whetstones. And which whetstone should I use at what intervals, like say, once a month on a 3000 or twice in 6 months on a 1000 and finish off with a 3000? I'm confused as I haven't been able to find an concrete answer anywhere.
Edge durability will vary depending on steel type, hardness, how much the knife is used and who is using the knive. To me it doesnt make sense regular intervals, I sharpen if they are not performing as I like. If there the edge is chipped or there's a broken tip I use a low grit for the rough grind. If its dull enough to reflect light from the edge, visible rolled, or can't cut paper I use 1k grit. If it can't shave hair but can still push cut receipt paper I do a touch up using a 6k stone, same way people use a honing rod. Many people like more micro serrations than 6k offers and prefer to finish sharpening on 1k. Test what is your preference, leave it shaving hair on 1k and compare same sharpness on 3k to see what you like best. 1k edge tends to last longer. Honing rods is a topic on itself. There is smooth steel , rough steel , ceramic and diamond. Each will perform different . As a general rule by using honing rod you are getting faster results but lower edge durability due to metal stress. If you are in a hurry and time is important honing rods are interesting. I like the idea for butchers and chefs, specially the ceramic one. I never use honing rods but you can use them if you like, just be very consistent with the angle and use little very force comparing to stone. Contact area is very small so even little force will apply huge pressure. A couple passes on each side is enough to fix a rolled edge or to align micro serrations from rough stones.
All common sense advice if you understand about brittleness, yet I always forget and did the scrapings on the cutting board, cutting through frozen foodstuffs due to impatience, twisting to break foodstuffs and ignored what I know perhaps to to impatience. That is why I need someone to remind/teach me. TQ chef.
As an unconsious movement when moving food from chopping board I either scoop up the food on the side of the blade or turn my wrist so the spine of the knife is facing downwards, and then using that to move the food with... My question is, should I just keep using this technic, or should I change to another technic? TIA 😊
Great question, it is the hard force, twisting, prying, scraping motion that can cause chipping or microchipping (hard thin knife edges). When you just scoop the food it should not impact the edge unless you force the edge in the cutting board. (the thinner and the harder the edge can cause micro-chipping especially if some sand were not washed off yet). When I scoop I angle the knife depending on what I scoop but I never force my way and that should not cause any problem and I see no problems with that. The thing is with onions for example with the rocking motion example: 3:48 that is one of the problems which can cause microchipping on hard (high Rockwell and thin edge) knives.
Great Video Chef Panko! What are you thoughts on cutting tougher vegetables like Butternut squash? I have a larger, thicker 9.5" Gyuoto that I use with no problem. But I'm wondering if I can use my smaller Yu Kurosaki Bunka or Shun?
Great question. I see no problems with butternut squash despite it being a denser food type (and with the thinner knife and sharper performance, it may even be a smoother slicing experience compared to a thicker knife and softer knife). The only thing is the stem. When that is removed, I see no problem. The only thing that can cause problems is the lack of confidence when you slice through. With that, I mean when you feel it resiting/feeling of getting stuck, don't force your way through it. Pull it out and try again, and definitely don't twist/pry the knife. Smaller knives will be slightly harder depending on how big the butternut squash is but the same applies to the smaller knives. (when the food you cut is way bigger, you need to maneuver around it, which can be a daunting task; therefore, a longer knife is more suitable for that task). Example 4:04 as long as you don't do that, you will be fine. Chocolate, for example, is way harder and denser. I would not use that kind of knife on a chocolate bar, for example.
Im really looking into japanese knifes right now and i think im quite close to bying my first one. I think I fell in love with a gyuto kiritsuke, but I am a bit hesitant purchasing it, because of the brittleness. Also I dont know if it will fit me and my cutting style, as I am more of a rocking-cutter. Do you have any suggestions? And my last question is if I can crush and mince garlic with a japanese knife? (I know you're not supposed to really crush it with really high force, but just a small damp with the knife body to peel it?)
You can go for a lower Rockwell knife first like 60 or lower. The Japanese knives are very sturdy, as long as you don't add excessive force you should be fine with crushing garlic. (it is really those that are like hammering the knife over and over to crush things is a bigger concern) If you like rocking try to find one with a more pronounced belly profile (harder to find but some may offer them). As for brittleness, they are extremely durable if used correctly but it all comes down to experience most first-time users will most likely microchip the blade first but once they resharpen it and know what they can and can't so they won't have any problem. (some even get a big chip due to the wrong usage). My suggestion would be, try to find a rounder belly profile in order to compensate for brittleness try to get a knife within the Rockwell range of 60 or lower. Also, get a stainless version it is less maintenance and care. Try High Carbon once you have more experience with your knives in terms of maintenance/ sharpening since high carbon if not used for a long period or you go on a vacation will rust. Therefore coating it with mineral oil before going on a vacation is recommended especially if you have no patina build-up.
Thank you again for a great video. Love the thing with the egg! Chef Panko, I have been watching your videos for a while and you opened up the world for sharp knives for me. It 's virus though... once you own one, it's hard to stop there.... since my Takamura R2 I got two knives out of Tosa (super sharp carbon steel and a cheaper alternative to most other Japanese knives)a Masakage Yuki and a Koishi and a Kurosaki Fujin...all different steel types, and finishes. But I'm gonna get myself at least a Moritaka and a Teriyasu... Have you done a video on the honesuki type of knives? I think I might be acquiring one sometime soon....
I have not been able to add new knives to my collection. I have a few artisan knives that I want, but currently going through all the requested knives. Hopefully, I can add one more at the end of the year :) Looked the knives up, and they look so good!!! Really want to visit the shop now to look at the knives in person before buying, but currently, I can't add more to my collection :( I have not done a video about a Honesuki yet, hopefully in the future currently trying to catch up with all the requests.
Try out a Kosuke Muneishi knife, he's a young blacksmith from Tosa, and because he's so young (around 33 years old), his blades are still going for reasonable prices. He's a third generation blacksmith. His family makes blade for forestry work, axes, sickles, etc. and the son decided to branch out and make cutlery. He mainly works in Aogami #2, and uses jigane (iron) and stainless steel cladding with the aogami, san mai style.
@@Greyswyndir I have two knives from Tosa. My experience is these have a rough finish, which I don't mind. The fit of the handles is poor with space for water to crawl into, which I do mind. Hope yours are better done
@@admirallongstash8056 - It's called a kurouchi finish (blacksmith's finish). It's black oxide, and it will not rust. An easy fix for the gap in the handle is fill it with either beeswax (you'll have re-apply every few weeks) or use epoxy to seal it permanently. The Muneishi made knife's handle was sealed, so there were no problems at all for me. I have another knife (made from Shirogami steel #1) made by the Yoshimitsu brothers (very old men who make knifes in the Nagasaki area), I need to seal the handle because there is a gap in the handle that water can get to. I just bought the knife recently, but man do I love it!
I plan to get back onto them almost finished the most requested videos. Once those are done I plan to dabble in the Japanese made budget friendly knives ($60 to $100 range)
People ask me alot why i have a 10$ chef knife with my fancy Japanese knifes. Cheese, simply cheese lol. I find it funny how even my beater henckles can't cut cheese as well as a dollar store chef knife. I cant think of anything else that rather be cut by something dull. Ham fisting garlic always gets a question aswell. I bent a miyabi crushing garlic the last time i used the side.
Wow, I literally posted a similar question on your blog today and you make a video response the same day! Do you think its a good idea to use a very hard utility knife since the blade is smaller so you apply less force on it and you will use it way more often generally for home cooking so the blade will stay sharp and a large chef knife with softer steel so you don't have to worry?
It highly depends on your usage (but yeah it is correct, unless you want something with the longer edge retention and better sharpness but always know that there is a trade-off). At home, I use a beater knife when I cook something quick (ranging from 56-58 on the Rockwell scale). When I have time, I use my Shibata Bunka knife with a Rockwell of 63 as I enjoy my prep work and don't have to rush anything (and for things I don't want to use my $250 knife on I switch to the cheaper beater knife). And for all other tasks like peeling an apple, I use a paring knife (Victorinox Swiss Classic Paring Knife 8cm). I never use my work knife at home (single bevel Yanagiba). You can always try to find a sweet spot with the Rockwell and steel-type but this is different for each person. I would say that most Japanese fusion knives have a thicker blade and are softer than most artisan knives. As in this video, I used 2 knives to show the effects, Global which is around 58 on the Rockwell scale, is softer to handle the abuse (so I don't have to worry about the edge). The Shun with a VG-Max has a Rockwell of 61, which is harder and will chip with improper use (twisting/ forcing your way through something hard, especially a task with high impact on the edge can chip it). As for Cheese and bread well it is explained in the video and replied to your comment on the website but here is a copy-paste: While we eat a lot of cheese in the West, the Japanese people with the old tradition don’t consume cheese or dairy. With the fusion and modernization of countries, you slowly see more and more diary in Japan (Pizza, Pasta, etc.). You now see that Japanese knives are adapting to the western cuisines; (western handle design thicker knife, cladding compared to the traditional Japanese knives and single bevels) This knife, particularly (60 HRC), should be able to go through hard cheese. The problem is that high Rockwell knives around 61+ have longer edge retention but sacrifice durability. So an accidental twist combined with a thin edge and high Rockwell (even 60HRC) will result in an increased rate of chipping due to improper use. Soft cheese causes a problem too since the softer cheese clings onto the knife, and the thin cutting edge cant handle the drag and will get multiple stress fractures. Hard cheese, if accidentally twisting the knife while the knife was still in the cheese block, can cause chipping. To avoid multiple stress fractures around the blade, they have added softer cladding to protect the core. But this also means that you should not use the knife to crush the garlic, especially if done in high volume or tenderize meat with those kinds of knives. The multiple stress fracture will build up over time, and especially knives without cladding can suddenly break. Meanwhile, softer knives like the german chef’s knives are softer, around 58 Rockwell or lower, which can handle any abuse. The edge will roll rather than chip or break, but it sacrifices edge retention/sharpness for the increased durability since it is softer. To reduce drag on soft cheese, you have cheese knives with holes so that the cheese won’t cling to the blade. For this reason alone, I always have a beater knife (a cheap knife with soft steel). When I’m at home, I don’t always cook occasionally, I have a frozen pizza, and I don’t have a pizza cutter, so I use my softer cheap knife to cut through it. I basically use it on things that I will never slice or cut with a high carbon thin Japanese-styled knife. Hope that this explains why I advise against going through the cheese and other hard food. As with bread, the hard crust is unpredictable and sometimes can be very hard, therefore they have a serrated bread knife with an asymmetrical grind. The teeth bite in the crust and the asymmetrical design adds durability and will saw through the softer layer.
@@chefpanko Thank you for the very long reply, I ordered a AUS10 Dongsun utility knife with cladding because of your review. One thing I don't understand is why they sell cleaver with very high hardness and same expensive steel as chef knife because its the same product line, its very stupid and only for marketing.
@@koffing2073 When it comes to those Chinese cleaver knives, you have them for different purposes. While they look the same, they are not used for the same task. The 3 most common ones are: 1. Chinese ''Vegetable'' Cleaver or sometimes called the ''slicer.'' - to slice vegetable and boneless meat 2. ''Dual purpose'' Cleaver sometimes called ''all-purpose''Cleaver - the front part is slicing the 1/3th heel area to go through smaller bones like chicken or fishbone. 3. ''Bone'' Cleaver - to cut harder/bigger bones like a pork rib. Not ideal for cutting vegetables as it will split rather than cut. So when they use harder steel, it is most likely #1 The Vegetable Cleaver (slicer).
I just got a Kunihira Sairyu VG-10 Nakiri that my retailer tells me has HRC of 61-63, even though this channel suggested it's 60. I wonder if I can treat this knife with the fine white rods of my Spyderco, or if I MUST get a whetstone for something like this.I already have a Zische whetstone with FEPA 120/280, but I bought this one specifically to get on edge an my superdull knives, and I'm not sure yet I want to get into precision waterstone technique for just one blade.
Most retailers will assume the highest Rockwell rating or indicate the highest. But the reality is that most manufacturers will give out a Rockwell indication scale where the knife can sit in, in your case your retailer suggests a Rockwell between 61/63. But a VG10 usually sits between 60/61 (Most Japanese manufacturers have nailed this steel-type already and can get a consistent 60/61). My review sample of the Kunihira performed like a Rockwell of 60 within my testing setup of real-life performance which is just an indication: www.chefpanko.com/kitchen-knife-edge-retention/ Another factor to take in is that the manufacturers may have improved their production line and can achieve a consistently higher Rockwell rating (in this case the newer batches can get a higher Rockwell rating on the retailer's page). Most honing rods will be fine, I always suggest ceramic honing rods. Make sure it is not too coarse since a very coarse rod can cause microchipping (Which I have not seen happen yet on my VG10 knives). For this reason, I don't recommend very coarse diamond-coated rods, as it also reduces the knife lifespan. (Also don't use a honing rod on single beveled knives like a Yanagiba). There are 2 things you should consider, a whetstone is eventually needed since you need to create a new edge sooner or later. The moment you feel like the knife-edge retention and sharpness drops off too fast is the moment you may need to grind a new edge on the knife. Profile Taper: Since you have a Nakiri, if I'm correct there is no distal spine taper (where the neck area is thicker and gradually becomes thinner towards the front). However, with all knives, they do have a Profile taper (Thicker at the top and gradually becomes thinner at the cutting edge, keep in min the thinning usually starts midway with Nakiri's). While for home use I don't think that profile thinning is needed, but when used in a professional kitchen the knife wears out a lot faster and for them, it may be necessary to thin the knife at some point in the knife lifespan. Other times when thinning may be needed is if you have a big chip on the knife and you have to restore it completely. (this can be because you accidentally dropped your knife or tried something that you should not do with those knives) For more information, you can find it here: www.chefpanko.com/maintenance-sharpening/ Feel free to ask more questions I would love to answer them.
I recieved a new MAC knife which came with perceptible microchips and a slightly deviated heel. Is this normal for a new knife or did the seller send me some kind of return which has already been mishandled?
There should not be any vivible microchips and a deviated heel does not sound good. Is the heel veciated only from one side and only visible with reflections? (if it is from both side they may have rounded off the heel which is a choice from the manufacturer). Have you contacted the seller and included the pictures that can show what the problems are? Did you find any damage on the box? was is packaged correctly by the seller? Most knife have a protective box so that the knife does not move during shipping and the sellers also add buble wrap or fillings so that the knife box cant move within the shipment box. I would say make pictures of the problem contact your seller, and see what kind of solution they can give you most logical option is you sending it back for replacement/ money back (most seller don't cover the shipment cost but some do and if they do they will email you an RMA email with a barcode that you can print and then just give the box to a service point of the delivery company). Hope the seller can help you with it, most of the warranty coverage does not include chips etc, so be clear that the knife arrived like that out of the box and that you did not use it. (communicate this part with the seller, before they try to blame you for the damage and tell you that you voided the warranty). Some sellers will offer free repair or resharpening but whatever solution you decide to go for make sure you are happy with the solution.
@@chefpanko I really appreciate your feedback. As a first time Japanese knife owner, I wasnt sure what to expect quality wise though I had heard good things about the condition and sharpness of a MAC out of the box. The seller has contacted me based on my feedback asking me about the issue and sounds keen to make my experience better. I usually don't bother with trying to contact the seller because of round trip postage and the fear that the seller may become problematic once they receive my return. As the micro chips are only barely perceptible and the bent heel is also barely perceptible, maybe I should practice with a whetstone on a cheap knife and then when I am confident I can then sharpen it myself?
@@6AxisSage That is very good of the seller to contact you after your feedback. Yeah, you can practice on a cheaper knife first and then move on to the Japanese knife. The most important thing is to understand the basics and after you understand that develop your own sharpening style that feels the most natural and most comfortable to you. Since there is a lot of ways to sharpen the knives but every one of those methods shares the same basics. That is a consistent angle, consistent adjusted force. Gaining experience is the key factor after knowing the basics. Everything else is just extra to know since with hand sharpening you will always fluctuate a bit in the angles (we are humans after all and not robots). On my website, you can find more information (I have to update the website soon with more information): www.chefpanko.com/maintenance-sharpening/ don't worry too much since we will destroy our first knife most of the time by experimenting with what works the best for ourselves (it takes time to develop our own hand sharpening style). Also, don't worry about cutting paper-thin tomatoes, because different type of food works better on a different type of sharpened finish. For example, you don't need a grit of #2000+ most of the time Since an edge with a toothier finish will have longer edge retention and works better on meat that needs to be cooked. It also prolongs the edge retention, increases wear resistance and the added bite works better on meat. And since we cook those types of food it gets seared close. So usually a #1000/#2000 is recommended #2000/#3000 for maintenance. And then add an optional newspaper stropping. (While many like stropping on leather and compound, you don't need them just more experience, newspaper stropping is enough, or stropping on your jeans).
@@chefpanko Thanks again for the detailed reply. I sent pictures to the seller and he assures me that what i am seeing is in fact the large grains of the metal and he refered to global knives being similar. The steel is a molybdenum steel. I recently ordered a King brand whetstone 1000/6000 grit, so maybe now i should look for a 2000 or 3000 grit stone and not bother with the 6000? First time im hearing about newspaper stopping but I will check that out thanks ( and your website when I get a chance).
@@6AxisSage 1000/6000 grit is fine. #1000 for resharpening/adding a better edge. 6000 for refining the edge. Usually, after #1000 and a strop, it will be hair shaving sharp. Adding a 6000 grit gives the edge a finer polishing edge. Most manufacturers add a standard edge, most of the time with invisible refinements at a higher angle to add extra edge retention out of the box (hence why people get a feeling that out-of-the-box edge retention is great but once they sharpen themself the edge retention drops). Only a select few add a mirror polish like Misono and Brieto those 2 brands add a mirror polish. (especially with the mirror polish you can see the so-called invisible refinement with a good light reflection). So most brands add an edge where you see vertical lines on the edge itself. The toothier edge should not be visible since most manufacturers add a refinement step at a higher angle. I have no idea what the seller saw and I have no idea what you saw so I can't say much about your situation. Some manufacturers add different types of edges to the knife style. Like adding a mirror finish on specialized knives like Yanagiba's, adding a toothier finish on a meat slicing knife like a Sujihiki. different purposes different edges. A toothier edge will degrade differently. Some manufacturers have alternating steels like a VG1/VG10 alternating on each other this creates a different type of edge degradation. By adding multiple layers of different steel you create a natural toothier degradation, which is toothier but maintains the edge for a prolonged period of time. We know that a toothier edge has a different degradation that benefits us for things like denser protein. Since it increases toughness/strength, edge degradation, less wear, increase edge retention, less bending of the cutting edge, easier breakdown, and cutting feel on dense protein like pork/chicken/cow meat. So in the case of synthetic man-made stones, the quality of those stones is so consistent that it does not add a true toothier edge. A natural stone fluctuates in #grit ratings on each part of the stone creating a natural better toothier edge vs a synthetic stone. (however finding a correct natural stone that fit your needs is hard since they are natural stones you have no control of what exact #grit you get the seller may state #1000 but in reality, the stone sits between #800/#1200 for example and each spot of the stone sharpens on a different grit).
Depends on what cleaver we are talking about since the Chinese cleaver has multiple variations and purposes despite having the same look: 1. Chinese ''Vegetable'' Cleaver or sometimes called the ''slicer.'' - to slice vegetable and boneless meat 2. ''Dual purpose'' Cleaver sometimes called ''all-purpose''Cleaver - the front part is for slicing the 1/3th heel area to go through smaller bones like chicken or fishbone. 3. ''Bone'' Cleaver - to cut harder/bigger bones like a pork rib. Not ideal for cutting vegetables as it will split rather than cut. Vegetable Cleavers/Slicer with a high Rockwell and thin cutting edge is usually not suitable for that task. (cartilage should be fine tho). But what kind of steel they use can also play a part; some steel is very durable even with a Rockwell higher than 60. But it is inadvisable unless the maker/manufacturer stated that it is suitable for that kind of task.
Why is a rockwell steel hardness used to talk about how sharp and durable a knife is rather than tests on the knives themselves for sharpness and durability? Seems to obscure the whole dynamic interactive causality rather than make perceptively aware.
yes they are brittle. yes they are more durable than most folks think. both are true. folks forget, it's still steel. but for steel, stuff like super blue is extremely brittle. but it's still steel. it's more durable than you think.
Yeah most of the time it is because the knife is ground so thin behind the edge which is also the reason why the knives are so loved due to the smooth performance of the thin knife.
1.4116 is a Steel-type that sits between 56-58 on the Rockwell scale. Xinzuo does a good job with the heat treatment so they sit more on 57-58 on the Rockwell scale. I did a review of one of their knives with the german steel here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Vp152OVOH_4.html My version reached a Rockwell of 57. The Saya that they sell is magnetized if I'm correct the same as the 440C I reviewed here (timestamped to the Saya): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2GIIJe4xkIY.html
@@chefpanko yeah I searched your channel for it :) but I was thinking about the 8.5 inch , you can look it in the store. You reviewed the 440c version and you said it was a bit light compared to a Wusthof or Zwilling . My next knife should be similar to a wusthof. But no 100$ price tag, lol . I already spent a good amount of money on knives and stones.
@@dimmacommunication The 440c is more in line with a Gyuto. As the seller added Chef's knife in the title and description, so I expected a similar knife like a Wusthof or Zwilling. But Once I got it, it is s a Gyuto (thinner blade and straighter belly profile + lightweight). Aah, that version, with Xinzuo, and for the price of around $28, you can't go wrong. That version is more similar to the Wusthof/Zwilling in terms of shape/ belly profile. If you want a straighter profile/ Gyuto the 440c is great too.
Short answer yes (double-beveled Japanese knives), It depends on what kind of rod the grit rating, but one thing I won't hone on is a single bevel knife it also destroys the function of having a concave on them especially when it comes to Yanagiba's. I don't recommend a diamond-coated rod but a ceramic of 1k grit or higher will be fine even for high Rockwell knives. Single beveled knives should not be used on honing rods at all due to the concave design (Yanagiba, Sakimaru, Usuba, Hamokiri, etc). As with high Rockwell and double-beveled, I tend to avoid diamond-coated honing rods especially the one that is very aggressive and removes a lot of material (I do use Diamond coated ones at the restaurant if I forgot my knife roll and use the restaurant shared knives those knives have a Rockwell of around 61 and we also have the beater knives of around 56/58 on the Rockwell rating while the diamond works well on them it is very aggressive and removes a lot of material reducing the lifespan of your knife and in some cases, it can cause microchipping (did not notice this with knives under 61 on the Rockwell scale but I won't try it on higher Rockwell knives) I personally won't use diamond coated ones on my personal knife collection unless it is a cheap or my beater knife). That is why I usually opt for a ceramic honing rod of around a 1 to 6k grit rating (Only applicable for double-beveled knives). However, since it is the restaurant shared knives nobody really maintains them properly since it is not their knives so a Diamond coated rod is ideal to quickly overwrite the angle and to sharpen the knife instead of honing. (not ideal but it gets the job done without eating away your prep time). 1K for when I'm extremely lazy and forgot to maintain the knife so having an aggressive grit to force a new edge. 3K Once the 3K does not work I know it is time to plan a maintenance session. (you can still force an edge but not recommended, you add more maintenance steps and time) 6K a quick touch-up before I start the prep. The above scenario is for the Sushi kitchen prep. For a sneak peek at one of the restaurants I worked at and the prep work for that specific restaurant you can read this article on my website: www.chefpanko.com/kitchen-knife-edge-retention/
@@sherryruggiero1747 you can see it very easily by looking at the sides or choil. The double bevel is sharpened on both sides. Single bevel one side is flat. Example with knife styles: Sujihiki = Double Bevel Yanagiba = Single Bevel
@@chefpanko my new knife is a Kyoku and it looks like it’s double beveled. I know it’s probably not as nice as your knives, but it’s the sharpest most expensive knife I’ve ever owned. Did a little research. Some say never to hone a Japanese knife, some say you can. I bought a ceramic honer which claims to be also a sharpener. It is the green elephant brand. Is this good and do I still need a whetstone
A knife should always have a softer steel at the edge. Unless your doing delicate slicing for cooking fruits and vegetables. Anything else should be a softer steel like carbon steel. You want a blade to be durable and easy to manage. Not brittle and unsharpenable (by normal human beings). I like using well maintained carbon steel for cutting meat or woodwork, seems to give the most enjoyable cut. Sure you could spend the money on a 2000 dollar Japanese 63 Rockwell blade and do your best to never touch the cutting board you bought it for. But once you get a chip you better hope you have the skill, the time, and another 800 dollars in high grade water stones to even think about being able to use it again
Making a sandwich for lunch today I almost sliced some cheese with my gyuto before thinking better of it. I used a butter knife. Turns out I was right.
As long as your bread is soft and not hard (hard crust or grilled with a hard crust, so if you were using a freshly baked baguette, for example, use a serrated knife), you should be fine unless the knife does not do the work for you and you need to force your way down. As for cheese, if it is pre-sliced, you should be fine (it is more for the cheese block/cube that you need to portion size or slice it yourself where a cheese knife with a hole is the better option as it reduces drag). A pre-sliced ''thin'' layer of cheese should be fine. A cheese block where you need to portion size it yourself is a no for me. Hard and very dense cheese where you directly at the first contact feel that you need to apply force I would avoid, especially with high Rockwell knives (61+ and a low sharpened angle around 12 degrees). The following is quite important: - do not force your way through anything. If there is resistance and you know you need to apply a lot of force, don't do it. - high impact motion (like hammering through something like a bone) - torsion and twisting. - scraping with added pressure sideways with a thin cutting edge and a high Rockwell knife (61+). It highly depends on those above factors. If it is a Pizza with a very hard bottom crust, it is better to use your lower Rockwell knives on them, for example, to avoid chipping/breaking risk.
HRC hardness does not correspond to edge retention at all, statement in video is plain wrong. High HRC carbon steel knives have low edge retention. You can check data on well known and respected dr Larrin study with CATRA tests. High HRC only means it’s gonna take sharp edge and not fold… that’s it
Thanks for jumping into the comment section and sharing your thoughts! You're absolutely right; the whole HRC hardness and edge retention thing is a complex factor. My bad if I oversimplified it a bit in the video. Your mention of Dr. Larrin's CATRA tests adds some serious depth to the discussions-totally agree. Now, while my explanation might be a simplification, I wouldn't label it 'plain wrong.' Nevertheless, it's crucial to note that higher HRC generally means less edge deformation and, theoretically, longer sharpness compared to a lower Rockwell knife that deforms faster, resulting in a knife that has less edge retention. But you know how it is; each knife has its own properties, and the blade's anatomy plays a big role." But as you already know it is a complex matter and each steel can perform entirely differently depended on the manufacturing processes and heat treatment and the steel that is being used. This also applies to edge retention, toughness and steel resilience. Advancements and refinements in steel compositions contribute to variations in performance. A high HRC is just a tip of the iceberg as steel type is a complexity factor and we get a lot of new steel and new steels are still being made and explored. Older steels might get a newer grade, or a new name to showcase the new steel that will accelerate in new things compared to older steel.
I have been using my Shuns on a daily basis for almost 15 years now, mostly a small petty knife and a 20-cm chef knife, and they're still good as new. Follow exactly these tips - don't cut frozen food, do not cut bones, scrape with the back of the blade not the edge, do not use them as a can opener - and you'll be happy with Shun knives forever, no chipping, not broken tips, none of that. My only complaint is that the petty does not get as sharp and won't stay as sharp as long as the chef knife.
@@einundsiebenziger5488 well the shun I got must have been a lemon. It’s a shun premier and micro chips under normal use on a wood cutting board. I don’t abuse knives. I just don’t think shuns are worth what they charge for them. Same as snap on tools. You’re over paying for no reason. Shuns are notoriously bad about chipping issues and notoriously bad about warranty. There’s a reason Alton brown no longer does business with them and no longer uses their products. It’s because their products are shit and so is the company. Maybe your old shuns are fine but paying that amount for VG10 is pointless in todays world. There’s much better products out there for the money with better business practices
@@AntwonDaBusiness Indeed there are* better knives out there. Would never buy a Shun for the prices they sell their knives for nowadays, but they are still decent knives.
No, they are not designed for heavy-duty tasks. If you use the knife as intended then these knives are amazing. There are thousands of applications and billions of users. The edge or edges or the different kitchen knife (like a Yanagiba) that works well for a master Itamae isn’t going to work well for your local butcher or fisherman. And neither of their edges or knives are effective at cutting down a tree.
Here is a written blog post: www.chefpanko.com/how-brittle-is-a-japanese-knife-chipping-breaking/ I will work on my English pronunciation and speaking in future video's but hope that this helps a bit. As for the video ''CC'' option is at the bottom right corner. This will turn the subtitles on. Sorry for the inconvenience, and thank you for your feedback. I really appreciate it.
Can you elaborate, I would love to know why you say that. If it is because of the breaking part: Using high HRC blades to crush garlic, nuts, etc. The stress can be distributed by using the side of the blade near the spine/handle. Blade construction has a major effect on strength/durability. Western knives are most commonly mono-steel (one layer) so they are often limited to hardness below 60. Even premium steels are risky above 60 in a mono construction. -True Damascus. Multi-layer construction with no discrete core material. This is generally not as strong as other constructions since there are multiple stress risers on the cutting edge. There is a legend that some of these old Damascus blades were “nearly unbreakable” but I doubt that they would compare to modern steels. There is an interesting modern take on this construction using 2 different stainless materials. San Mai (3-layer) with a hard core and softer (and usually more stain-resistant outer core). These blades can have a practical hardness limit above 60. A subset of San Mai is modern Damascus. These are really a 3 layer construction with a hard core and multi-steel outer layers Honyaki (differential heat treated mono-steel). These can be hardened above 60 but generally are not as desirable as San Mai for ultimate hardness/strength. Most tough blades are layered construction such as San Mai. I’m a fan of San Mai construction as it can reduce the stress on the hard core. Exceeding stress limit is what leads to failure. In bending or torsion; stress is proportional to strain and strain is proportional to thickness. The thinner the hard steel is the more it can be bent before the stress limit is exceeded. This is why you can make a flexible glass cable. Each fiber is so thin that the strain is reduced and the stress limit isn’t exceeded. If the same diameter cable was made from solid glass it would have almost zero strain limit. It would be very stiff and require a high force to bend. But if bent even the slightest bend will likely cause a fracture.
Yeah? I'd like to hear what he's wrong about. You need to rethink your post: it's useless slander. Also, learn to spell what you claim is your own trade. And if you happen to find some intelligence on sale at Walmart, buy some!
