How Catholics can overcome the liturgy wars | Think Like a Jesuit, Episode 1 

"I didn't know anything about the liturgy till I was ordained." Thank you for the honesty about seminary formation!

I’m a recent convert from Protestantism. (All the main denominations on my journey to Rome) I was attracted to the Latin Mass on the other side of town but had a beautiful Novus Ordo Parish 5 minutes from my house. I’m a big proponent of going to Churches in my community, because as an Evangelist in the street, it’s better to be able to bring people off the street to a Church near by. But I ended up loving both Masses and when I was at one, I missed the other. 😂 So I prayed and asked God where did He want me to go? A few hours later, my local Parish called me and asked me to come by to meet me. God would confirm that would be my home. Sometimes I wonder what life would be like a TLM but I also thank God for the opportunity to grow in Holy Tradition and get to share these truths at my local Parish. If everything leaves the NO Churches, who will be able to grow alongside those new converts or Catholics who don’t know what they believe like that? I consider it a call from God to stay rooted in my NO Parish and live out tradition to my best by God’s grace. And I’m not a super hero or think I’m something special like I’m going to save the world, but I do enjoy this mission to serve in my community, no matter the liturgical scenario. And thanks be to God, but my Church has a very reverential Novus Ordo Mass. I’ve had many cases where the Lord has spoken to me and have witnessed supernatural events in my Parish during Mass. So it works out. 😊 I do understand some NO Masses are a little looney and it makes it hard for some to side with my perspective. My heart and prayers go out to those who have to endure that. I really do pray for them. But we have to understand that the V2 is a valid council and it’s up to us to stand for truth and tradition. It wasn’t meant to be easy but Jesus will see us through it all.

Well this was a pleasant surprise. Usually America Magazine treats us traditional leaning Catholics unfairly, but this was a very open and fair conversation. I am 22 years old and was educated and brought to the faith by awesome Jesuits in my Jesuit high school (shout out Belen Jesuit). I was not initially “trad” but as I learned more about the faith, I quickly began to search for communities that took Catholicism seriously. I am sorry to say that the reality is many (not all or even most, but many) U.S. Novus Ordo parishes do not take our Faith seriously. They have sloppy liturgy, a congregation that cares little about the unchanging doctrine of the church, and zero spiritual life. They are glorified country clubs and make no demands on their congregation. I’ll put it simply, many communities have lost faith in Christ and His Church. I know that is a controversial and difficult thing to say, but it is true. I know it because these were the churches I grew up in. It is this lack of a real challenge and incessant pandering to the youth, forgetting how much our OWN TRADITION has to offer, that is why I stopped believing in Middle School (I came back thanks in part to faithful Jesuits in High School). Many young people are like me. But unlike me, many of them will not come back. Fundamentally, this is not a TLM vs Novus Ordo issue. I’m confident of this. The issue is that young Catholics want to go to liturgies that are rooted in authentic Catholic tradition (so they don’t feel like they’re being pandered to by excessive inculturation), that are trying to be beautiful and reverent (not just minimum effort like one dude with a guitar on a SUNDAY MASS), and that shows them something of the Divine. The TLM offers them this, Novus Ordo’s across the country have not. The Jesuit way to respond to this is to do what these two Fathers did. LISTEN. Don’t cancel us and label us as rigid. We are trying to help the Church reach out to the youth. The way to reach out is to offer them the solid rock of tradition and doctrine while our world spins out of control, not pander to them and “dumb down” the Faith. We might need a little “rigid” these days, I know I did. If you read this, thank you. And God bless these two Jesuits and the Jesuit order.

The N.O liturgy growing up “shaped” me into an Atheist. As a convert back to the Church I can say if it wasn’t for the TLM I would have become Eastern Orthodox. This was mainly because of the irreverential experience of the N.O in my area and my ignorance of of Church history at the time of my conversion. I’m sure this is a very common story.

I grew up NO and have no problem with it today. When I came back to the faith five years ago, it was NO, then I started going too daily TLM because it was on the way to work at an FSSP parish which I've since joined. I grew more drawn to it simply because of the reverence, the silence. The silence speaks volumes. As St Teresa said the best time to contemplate and adore Jesus is after receiving Him in the eucharist. St Ignatius even says to hear Christ speak, you need silence. The NO doesn't give you that silence. The music doesn't draw you to God, it draws you to yourself. Don't get me wrong, there are some beautiful NO Masses done correctly. If the priest just followed the rubrics and doesn't make it about him because it's about Him. Was Pope Francis harsh? Yes. Why? I believe certain bishops/cardinals hate the TLM. Secondly, in my opinion, there are some, some rad trads school have ruined it for everyone. How? Continually calling some bishops, and even the pope, heretics. Never speaking with charity. So those who wrote the motu proprio, or rather, those who had a hand behind it and it's implementation were harsh. If the TLM is permanently banned and never permitted publicly to be said again, I won't go SSPX, I'll go back NO. But there will always come a new pope.

The TLM is attracting younger people to the Church. It should encouraged, not discouraged.

The Latin Mass is the most perfect, beautiful thing I have ever experienced

"Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi" As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live! Here is a major difference I've regularly observed that I've never heard addressed by Novus Ordo priests: in a Traditional Latin Mass setting, the people are mostly silent while in church both before and after Mass (and anytime they're in church). They reverently bless themselves with with holy water and genuflect when they pass before the Tabernacle. Women cover their heads. The atmosphere is prayerful. At Church in the Novus Ordo, people chat and gossip at full volume, rarely genuflect or bless themselves, stand in the aisles while they talk, ignore anyone who's praying, and pretty much ignore the fact that Jesus is present, body, soul, and divinity in the Tabernacle. Even Novus Ordo priests and religious act this way. No one speaks out about it. Talk in the vestibule or outside. Tell me which congregation is more reverent.

The TLM does not invite, it draws you in and captivates you and all your senses through its beauty and sustains you with its unabashed proclamation of all Catholic doctrines and dogmas. Its leaves you knowing that you have just taken part of something that is truly good, right, and just worship.

It should not be controversial at all. Why is our Jesuit pope shutting it down? My diocese just shut down our TLM this month. Before anyone lambasts me, I am a regular NO attender and very infrequently attended TLM at our cathedral. Again, this controversy should NOT be and as far as I can see, it’s coming from a Jesuit called Paoa Francis. Any thoughts? Make it make sense.

The traditional Latin Mass developed under the guidance of the Holy Ghost over centuries is simply the means par excellence to worship. The Novus Ordo is a hot mess concocted in four years by men intent on fundamentally transforming the Church.

I love both forms! No war with me. Who is creating division? Are you being rigid?

St. John Paul ll & Benedict XVl both let the Latin mass be said and there was nothing in Vatican 2 against it.

Fr. John Hardon SJ. A loyal Son of Saint Ignatius of Loyola 🙏♥️🙏

Maybe the modernists should leave the TLM alone and allow people who want it to practice it unimpeded? That would be a great start! Then we can work our way to cleaning up the NO masses to make them more reverent. Maybe then the “liturgy wars” will finally quiet down! What do you think?

I went to a traditional latin mass as a non catholic two weeks ago with a catholic friend and I really enjoyed it. I really appreciate sacred ritual, even rituals not part of my religion, because I love the appeal they make to my desire of mystery when worshipping. I hope the local catholic parishes in my community with the latin mass continue to celebrate in latin so I can visit again with my friend sometime

Everyone I know attending TLM believes this whole heartedly. I attended both. 7:38 . The fact of the liturgy forming is why many prefer TLM. TLM is much more Christocentic in the rubric and has more signs, scriptures and meditation time. Praise and thank God in the Liturgies. This formation then teaches us how to act in community.

Very fair discussion Fathers, thanks from this trad. (P.S. The first TLM I attended was at the church of my Jesuit Alma mater).

I made my First Holy Communion in the Tridentine Rite. If it is now “controversial”, well that hasn’t been assessed as such by me. Is this some new teaching which I haven’t been told about?

If your main criteria for ministry is families, from personal experience, TLM masses are full of families with young kids, the vast majority of which are not ideologues, then the conclusion is is that these ppl must be cared for and follow the law of graduality

Pope Francis seems to tolerate heterodoxy quite well, but has little tolerance for traditionalists

We can alleviate some of this issue by actually following the suggested NO liturgy; Latin, organ music, Gregorian chant etc. You put those back in the mass, it's my belief that 80% of complaints about the novus ordo vanish. Because those things bring back the reverential feel of the event. It sets it apart from the mundane. The biggest mistake that the Church made wrt the updated liturgy was giving celebrants too many options (all due respect). And this is coming from someone who is decidedly *not* a trad Catholic

Very interesting! The 'Liturgy Wars' are in my view a convenient distraction from the difficult work of spreading the Gospel.

"I don't think I really knew anything about liturgy like until I was virtually ordained..." Not in the least bit surprising.

I missed you guys 😍😍😍😍 love the dynamic you have together, makes learning more fun.

I have no issue with people celebrating the Eucharist however it is most comfortable for them. What I resent from the radical Trads is their believe that my preferred ritual, Novo Ordus, is illegitimate. It seems schismatic to me.

Excellent discussion. Thanks for this presentation. It's helpful for understanding where people are coming from.

Interesting. I can’t abide the Latin Mass. I just abhor it. I grew up with it, and the real spiritual revelation for me only occurred the first time I heard the Mass said in English. Nonetheless, I believe there is nothing to be gained by denying the Latin Mass to those turned on by it. It’s largely a mistake to even try. Which doesn’t mean some sort of line shouldn’t be drawn. The intransigent quote that appears quite early in the video points the way. Probably, there should not be entire parishes devoted exclusively to Latin ritual. Please. Spare the rest of us. As for traditionalist cabals insisting on or insinuating an unraveling of Vatican II, I am afraid we will just have to deal with it through a multitude of checkmates. We can’t just bludgeon this away by denying people. Pick your parish carefully. I see no other way. However, you might surprise yourself. The second time around, I found it wasn’t so necessary to be surrounded by a parish of my tribe. Rather, it was enough that the traditionalist parish be firmly rooted in the Gospel message…and preach nothing else, not the catechism, not the magisterium, not Church traditions, and definitely not American politics.

The TLM is closer to the text of Vatican II than the average NO Mass.

mass is a ritual, the point is to just be there. Delivering mass in Latin allows it to be done in a more pure way. Why doesn't the current pope just come out of the closet and live a happy life as a protestant?

I grew up with the traditional Latin Mass and was at college when the changes took place. In my local church - in England - it was very badly arranged. Initially the Canon of the Mass was retained in Latin, while the other two sections before and after the Canon, were English translations. The congregation were given three sets of paper to follow the proceedings, creating a lot of rustling of paper and confusion - hardly appropriate for the worship of the Most Holy Trinity. The changes at the time created a lot of outrage and confusion. These days, my wife and I occasionally attend the TLM and we appreciate the solemnity that Latin brings to worship in it's unchanging structure and language, offering worshippers a sense of the 'other' beyond the words themselves. However, there are some aspects when I would welcome a change, for example not having a 'last Gospel'.

I feel both sides of this issue. The last thing Jesus needs is more scars on His body.

The Latin Mass will live. The Holy Father has shown no pain for what He’s done.

What a disgrace! Your explanation of “facing away” makes it sound like it’s impersonal! You should have said facing ad orientem. I’m glad you liberals within the Society of Jesus are the minority and the orthodox are becoming more of the majority (priests like Frs. Pacwa and Spitzer, and Bishop Lach are a blessing!). The priest faces ad orientem as he’s not the focus during Mass/Divine Liturgy, the Lord Jesus Christ is! The priest and people all pray the same direction and it’s a beautiful thing!

Latin Mass guy here. I am not anti Vatican II.

Thank you for this very balanced conversation. As a European I often worry about the passion with which American TLM devotees are pushing towards a schism. There's plenty of very reverend Novus Ordo masses here in Rome and we often say or sing prayers in Latin. I love attending the tridentine mass at Trinità dei Pellegrini but I also like understanding the Gospel reading. I hope the two styles can continue to exist. I like both.

It’s hard to understand that the Latin was the official language of the universal church for centuries. Was that a source of disunity ? I don’t think so. The ritual itself was conducted with so much care, because it was sacred and still is. The Vatican council has been trying to “protestantaise”the church under the name of ecumenism. It amuses me how, many young Catholics after exposition and studying the history of the Latin mass became attached to the Tridentine mass. It’s not nostalgia, it’s a way to get in contact with God. I think not everything is pastoral. I think is matter of love. It is true, that a conservative person wants to preserve aspects that the church thought always like: the family and children. The difference between men and women as created by God. The concept of natural law. The consecuentes of a bad sexual education that implies that a child needs father and mother. That abortion can not be a method of “birth control”. The fact that homosexuality is a fact, but with so much preponderance in Western Europe and USA, teaches the concept of “fluidity” or an spectrum that goes from pederasty, polygamy, and other “filias” that due to the cultural environment, we are trapped into accepting and promoting life styles that do not ultimately cause fulfillment and happiness. Everything starts with prayer. The TLM is one way of prayer. Uniformity is not desirable, nor is to subject the people by decrees or commands, under the name of “pastoral”.

The Mass is the frame for the Eucharist. What is the point of this ineffectual fiddling around with the format of the Mass when so few Catholics, (blasphemously) believe in Transubstantiation! Am l missing something? Or is Nero fiddling whilst Rome burns, again🙄

One of the *Quick Facts* is actually wrong. The TLM is not known as the Tridentine mass because it is the mass that has been celebrated since the 16th century, but because St.Pius V codified the mass in the council of Trent. What is known as the TLM or the Tridentine mass has been celebrated since at least the 5th century or so beginning with the transition from Greek>Latin in the liturgy and the composition of the Roman Canon(now known as Eucharistic prayer 1) by Pope St.Gregory I in the 7th century. So no the TLM does not date back to the 16th century.

What I remember most about TLM is a lack of partcipation. The priest "performed" the Mass, and I sat there watching. My dad loved it because he went to the 6:15 Sunday morning Mass at Blessed Sacrament (Hollywood, CA) and it was over in 15 minutes.

Given that in our Church we are able to live with and be enriched by the various Religious Orders, for example, there doesn't seem to be any really critical reason why we can't live with and be enriched by a variety of liturgical practices. We do already have them - I grew up in South Africa and was involved with various 'African' parishes and now live in Italy, where the way of celebrating the liturgy is very different. But being different does not mean we are not one Church. In a family, no one child is exactly like another, and we see that they grow up to have very different lives sometmes, but can still be very much part of one family. Diversity should be seen as enriching, not as dividing. I think banning or talking against either form of the Mass only makes those who are attached to it feel threatened and drives a gap between us.

I've attended a TLM, and I found it to be a beautiful service. But for me, I prefer NO, because I can pray in my lived language. Plus, as an African American Catholic, I am comforted, healed and energized by a gospel mass.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would teach. So going forward may well be the Holy Spirit.

I do not reject Vatican 2 but I must say they dropped the ball I think on the Liturgy. I think the Novus Ordo has many good things in it but I much prefer the Old mass with its bells and smells, beautiful vestments the priest wears and that adorn the Alter. the candles (Sometimes made of beeswax and thus put out the smell of honey) the Ancient words and prayers in a Old Language the absolute buety of the old mass that makes a statement............that we are not like other Christians we are Roman Catholics . The Old mass just has a special something the ordinary form does not and I feel to lose it would bee unfortunate . But I do agree the Cultish like Radicals it can attract and its Arrogant and overly dogmatic Clegy that half the time staff them is disturbing and caused me to no longer attend a latin mass perish 3 miles from were I live which pains me becuase I love the old mass. I wish my nearest parish offered it even 1-2 a week My Personal opinion is all parishes should be mandated by papal decrees to offer it at least once a week.

The "reform" of the liturgy after the Council was really bungled IMHO; it was too much, too quickly, and not strongly anchored in the texts of the Council (retention of Latin, for example), that it almost inevitably led to reaction. Things could have been vastly different if the reform had been handled much slower, with much less rupture of existing forms. If some solemnity and reverence had been maintained, people would perhaps not have flocked in numbers to the vetus ordo. Instead, there was not just reform but a real revolution that shocked large numbers of Catholics. There is a bit of Vatican revisionism happening which wants to gaslight us that the horizontalized liturgy we have was the intentional will of "the Council," a highly debatable proposition. A thoughtful presentation, fathers. Thanks.

"Celebrated with the priest facing away from the congregation"? Is that the way you see it? Can't you see it is the priest leading the congregation and facing God together???

In the end it's all about trusting the Spirit who guides the Church. All of the liturgical principles that became official teaching at Vatican II-the liturgy as the offering of God's entire people, the need for the laity to be active participants rather than "silent spectators," the legitimacy of celebrating Mass in local languages-are more than just aesthetic changes, they're actual truths into which we have been led by the Spirit. And we have to follow where the Spirit leads.

TLM is not controversial at all. It’s NO that’s controversial

I won’t be too reactive here and just listen though, but make a comment that it is hard to no make assumptions or generalize peoples thoughts. What did you mean you think there are people who think TLM is the only form? There is the East and the West. 7:01

Praying for the Restoration of Traditional Latin Mass

Practical Problems need Practical Solutions. The Pope can and should make the 1962 "Tridentine" form of the Mass a distinct Rite, even if a sub-Rite of the Latin Rite, with all the protections and elevations a long-standing Rite deserves. People are not going to abandon their preferred legitimate, time-tested, historical, "Mass of the Martyrs" mode of worship, and would rather join the SSPX than leave it behind. Creating a distinct Rite would solve all current practical problems form Traditiones Custodes and Unite the Church, seeing that in Her Wisdom the Church through the centuries and especially in Vatican II has realized that Unity does not always mean Uniformity with regards to liturgy, worship, and discipline. If people and priests gather and wish to from a parish dedicated to the Tridentine Rite Mass, then it will be accepted just like any other Rite. The "Novus Ordo" can be called the "Pauline Mass" or the "Vatican Rite Mass", a sub-rite of the Latin Rite. Where there are liturgical abuses in Novus Ordo communities, these need to be corrected. Where there are "misguided ideologies or views" of people in Tridentine Mass communities, these also need to be corrected. Neither of these problems is solved by suppressing the entire liturgical form or bitter attacking of each other. Our true Unity is in the Unchangeable Things, not the Changeable Things. The Unchangeable Things: the Doctrines and Dogmas of the Catholic Faith. The Changeable: everything else. The "Liberals" in the Church want to make the Unchangeable changeable and the Changeable Unchangeable; the "Conservatives" want to make both Unchangeable. The True Church keeps the Unchangeable unchangeable and the Changeable changeable and issues laws, disciplines, and Rites for each age. As Christ says, was man made for the Sabbath or the Sabbath made for man? And he also says, Follow my Commandments and that He has not removed one iota from the Law, meaning the Spiritual and Moral Precepts of the Law, not the ceremonial and exterior prescriptions, as the Church Fathers make clear.

I am from India. We want Traditional Latin Mass to evangelise and Restore Catholic Faith

If the NO was widely available in Latin and ad orientem (sp?), I wonder if that would satisfy many of the Catholics who love the Extradorinary Form. The Pope could not be opposed as this is what Vatican II actually stipulates as proper. I think the NO in Latin and AO would go a long way to restore reverance and taking the liturgy more seriously in the congregations.

Cant read the tiny typing

Terrific, balanced discussion. Thank you.

Ok Jesuits, we hear you loud and clear. You respect and love the variety of traditions in the Catholic Church. Everyone's heritage should be respected UNLESS YOUR HERITAGE COMES FROM EUROPE. In my diocese It's great to have a mass in spanish with mexican music and if I attend it I'm acknowledging that the church is universal.However if I attend the mass that my immigrant grandparents attended that was truly universal I'm rigid and probably racist. I'm also denying the " reforms" of Vatican II right? What " reforms" did Vatican II make? It was suppose to be a " pastoral" council. There was a time that I could go anywhere in the western world and assist ( not perform) at a TLM mass including Mexico and Central and South America. Now that was universal. BTW one of my grandparents was Eastern Rite so that was not foreign to me. Going to mass now is like visiting the tower of Babel. Pope Francis has a Tango mass. Someone else has a clown mass. Another has a folk mass and a fourth has " contemporary" christian music. There is even a jazz mass, an annual polka mass and a negro gospel mass all within a short distance from my home. Am I going to mass to praise the one true God or am I going to show I'm modern, appreciate diversity and most important of all NOT RIGID? Quite frankly the music is better at the jazz club, the polish festival and the mexican restaurant. Maybe I should just go out to eat and not limit myself to associating with those of just one religion. It seems to me Francis rejects the religion of my European ancestors and actually hates anything of European origin except our money. He is a very rigid man and full of animosity toward a large and faithful number of Catholics. He is also a tyrant hellbent on destroying local communities by engaging in social engineering.

Despite years of trying to be open to it the Novus Ordo Missae has always been an empty experience, speaking completely personally. Pope Benedict’s solution, so beautifully set out in ‘Summorum Pontificum’ has been cruelly trampled into the dirt. Cui bono?

The TLM is where I fell in love with Jesus.

TLM is the best. I just came from the only parish in Mexico City where they offer TLM, it is so beautiful and true.

I was raised in a Sephardic Jewish household, my grandfather and those of his generation were able to immigrate from Salonika Greece before the Nazi's took over the city because Angelo Roncalli (Later Pope John XIII, later Pope St. John) provided forged baptismal certificates since the US had a very strict limit on Jews entering the States. My father wanted to be and do all things American, he did not want to speak Ladino or Greek, nor go to Services in Hebrew. We have a saying in Judaism, "What the son want's to forget, the grandson wants to remember." I cherish the hymns and prayers from my youth in Hebrew. Skip to College, where I was first to encounter Jesus having been the Messiah. It was a protestant College, and the different denominations reflected on campus all had different teachings of who Jesus was, and what He meant when He said something. The only thing they could agree on was the Catholic Church was not Christian. So I took the anti-catholic ideas they told me, and started reading from Catholic sources. I found not only was what they claimed about Catholic teaching not correct, but in the Catholic Church Jesus was not a person from the past as they spoke of Him as being, but the Living Messiah. I converted and went to a local parish one Sunday (Sorry guys it was a liberal Jesuit parish) where the Liturgy I attended substituted the elements with Tortilla Chips and Beer, being more relevant to the Hispanic Massgoers at the Spanish Mass, Having read myself into the Church by the means of Cardinal Newman, Ronald Knox and others who wrote before the Council, it was a perfect set up for me to look elsewhere. I started going to a couple local Eastern Rite Catholic parishes, and gained a love for the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil. From there I learned of the SSPX, and attended their seminary. After Ordination (which was a tough road as there was a lot of Anti-semetism there, but being Sephardic with a Spanish name I was able to keep quiet and get through it all, I was still not at ease, with the lack of unity not just with the Holy See, but with one group that held to a private Sede view, and only used the Missal and Breviary of Pius X, others who accepted the Holy Week Rites simplified by Pope Pius XII, but rejected those changes of John XXIII. The Supporters of the 1962 Missal who rejected the Missal of Paul VI. No unity there either. What we had learned in Sacramental Theology clearly supported that what was absolutely essential to a valid Mass, does exist in the framework of the Missal of Paul VI. So it's valid. Paul the VI being a Catholic Pope, had every right to issue a missal, and reform the rites, as long as he maintained a Catholic Rite, which he did. So I returned to full communion with the Holy See, and after a couple years found a bishop who was willing to regularize me and use me for those who wanted the Traditional Rites, as well as permit me the faculties to learn and with a Ruthenian Bishop celebrate the Byzantine Rite. After a recent surgery, when I was unable to travel to the sites where the TLM is celebrated in the Diocese, let alone stand and offer the Mass, I offered Mass in private at home in my wheelchair. Sundays, and Holy Days I did not feel I should isolate myself, so my neighbors (one of the sons, who is a seminarian with the local diocese (New Rite) served my daily Latin Mass at home, while his classes were suspended due to COVID, I joined the family and rode to the local parish where while I sat in the Sanctuary, I did not concelebrate the Mass, as I have never been trained in the new rite. But I did assist at Mass and receive communion there because any Mass Latin Rite or Eastern Rite, celebrated in a rite authorized by the Church, in communion with the local ordinary is not the action of the priest celebrating, but the Action of Christ Jesus Himself. All the Sacraments are the Actions of Christ. I as a priest, or any other priest who Christ has shared His priesthood with may be essential to a valid Sacrament being confected. But it is not our Action... So while I am more comfortable with the Traditional Latin Rite, and the Byzantine (BTW I've also been to the Armenian, Coptic, Syrian Rites, (both Indian and Chaldean) as well as the Maronite, and the same goes for them) All are the opportunity for us to stand or kneel at the Foot of the Cross, and recline at the Last Supper, as Christ transcends time and space and brings to us those events so we can participate in His actions for our Salvation. As a Traditionally minded priest, I hope the readers here, like at my own homilies, got a good snooze, I know this was a long epistle, but at least you can scan it, rather than hear it thundering from the pulpit. Pray for me a sinner and all priests.

All I can say, in all honesty, is that attending the TLM with the SSPX saved both my faith and my sanity. As a result I think that those who wish to attend the TLM should be left totally in peace to do so. What is happening now to so many TLM parishes is outright persecution which is perplexing when there is so much talk from Rome on mercy and smelling of the sheep. What our forefathers held as sacred cannot suddenly become bad, dangerous, evil and forbidden. If it was good enough for countless Saints, then it is good enough for us. Finally, as Archbishop Vigano said recently "The Tridentine Mass is not going to go anywhere" or words to that effect. Trying to crush it is futile. So just let it be in peace. People like me drive 2 hours in total every Sunday to get to it. We make huge sacrifices to attend it so we're not going to abandon it as easily as people might think. Leave us be. It is that simple.

Lex Orandi Lex Credendi… Mass conducted Ad Orientem (Priest facing away from the altar) tells the congregation without any words who we are worshipping and the reverence we have for the true Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior without even opening the mouth. I have been attending the TLM for six months now. I took my non-Catholic father to his first TLM and the following day, he told me he wanted to become Catholic. Deo Gratias.

True unity is in Christ. That is why I feel more of a unity at the TLM with people that I don't even know.

"Trust the spirit" what spirit?? Sweat lodge ceremony?? Pick your parish?? Pick a priest?? This is some new religion. A religion based on man. Repent and make reparations. Our Lady of Guadalupe ora pro nobis.

I joined a traditional parish because of all the problems I was seeing in the Novus Ordo parish I was a member of and in those I visited. The biggest issue was a lack of reverence during mass, especially in the handling of the Eucharist. Some of the worst were celebrated by Jesuit Priests. I have attend mass at a lot of Catholic Churches and while there are some N.O. priests who are quite reverent in celebrating mass, there seems to be many more who aren't. I haven't attended an irreverent Traditional Latin Mass yet, and I've been to quite a few.

suggestion: stop with the bouncy music typewriter sounds pauses. This viewer finds it very annoying.

All should read “The Spirit Of The Liturgy” Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger .

Recently a priest told me that when he was in 8th grade in 1966 his pastor asked him "to compose" the Eucharistic prayer for their 8th grade graduation mass. It seems that ever since then priests can do whatever they want with the Mass. You can do whatever you want, as long as it isn't the Latin Mass.

It's not about beauty guys, neither is it about what you enjoy. The Mass is a Sacrifice of the Son to the Father. We are there to participate and witness and draw from the merits thanks to God's eternal charity. What's important is giving the very best to God, not to us. Akin to Cane and Abel. They both offered sacrifice but God accepted Abel's because he gave the very best. God deserves the best. So again, it's not really how we feel about the beauty or lack thereof. It's about God, not us

According to Pope Francis, all religions is the will of God, which meant all ways to worship is the will of God. So, what wrong with worshipping God throught the Traditional Latin Mass? Why did he hammered the sheep of his own flock? If Traditional Latin Mass is wrong, the Church, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus have been wrong.

I felt robbed of being a Catholic when I found a church that has the TLM. It took me until my 30s to find a church. I now only go to the TLM. The NO is clearly a Mass made for Baby Boomers, and it shows in the low attendance figures, with only them present.

How can you talk about discernment without taking about the Will of God? In the last 5 minutes of the discussion they talked about going to different parishes and discerning the styles of liturgy 😳 Why on earth would I want to do that?! By suggesting that they admit to the confusion in the Church. No thanks. I'd rather stick with the TLM, the one liturgy I'm sure is pleasing to God in every way.

Think like a Jesuit? No! Please think not like a jesuit. I meant, think not like a modern Jesuit.

It's like you understand what is drawing us to the TLM but then you turn around and take it away by saying that we're attracted by the liturgy. For me it's about where I can give God his due worship. One liturgy facilitates that while the other hinders and places obstacles. My desire is to worship God the way Justice and Charity demand that I do.

One final comment - and encouragement to priests saying the NO: slow down the tempo; say the prayers more slowly especially the consecration; make sure lay Eucharistic ministers are dressed properly and not chewing gum(which I Have actually seen); and notice at the TLM masses how attention is focused on the tabernacle with alter servers genuflecting every time the pass the tabernacle; at my parish it looks like Grand Central station with lay ministers and priests running back and forth and not paying attention to the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Tabernacle (ever wonder why there is such a low perception of Catholics who believe in the Real Presence?!!!!).

My Country has a reverent Novus Ordo I used to wonder why many in the west don't like the Novus Ordo until I saw the horrible liturgical abuses there

I grew up with the TLM, feeling pretty good if I could tell what page of the missal we were on. It was quiet, all right. The turning point came for me in the 1960s, when I attended a student mass at the University of Bordeaux and was able to participate in singing the beautiful Gelineau psalm in French. I knew Jesus all along, but had a special encounter with him in the Charismatic Movement of the late 1960s. It was as if the light went on. The rather drab new NO liturgy lit up for me, to where every prayer was the voice of the Holy Spirit. I realized, as I never had in my missal-bound childhood, that Jesus speaks to us in the readings at mass. These are as much an anamnesis as is the epiclesis. Those were concepts we had learned in their Latin-derived theological terms like transubstantiation, where the concept of anamnesis was dynamic: we were taken back, or Jesus was brought forward, to where we were there together at mass, here and now. Sadly, I do not think most parishioners grasp this mystery. There's nothing wrong with the NO. What's wrong is the level of catechesis required to clue people in to what's actually happening. Those whose faith has been enlivened by the TLM, however, have to realize that TLM is not an answer. Jesus is the answer. Pulling everyone back to the Tridentine version of the mass will not instill a renewed reverence. Recall, the opposite was more true for me. If it works for you, I'm glad. However, it might be good to take this faith you have found in the Lord Jesus through the vehicle of the TLM needs to be spread out--not in converting people to the TLM, but in helping people realize the reality of the liturgy--NO or TLM--keeping in mind that the first Eucharist was neither TLM or NO, but in Aramaic.

Thank God for the Ukrainian Catholic Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Tridentine latin Mass. The Ordinary Form, as Pope Benedict XVI called it, shoved me into over a decade of protestantism. The Latin Mass and the Ukrainian Divine Liturgy pulled me back.

One of the challenges of the "secular soup" is the constant bending to what's popular and not sacred. Latin forms the basis for the language of so many people, the sacredness of that powerful foundation has such a power to touch the heart. This may seem obscure but for a few years I had been listening to mantra's in Sanskrit because of the timeless quality of the sounds. I happened across some Latin Gregorian Chants and I could feel my soul transported across time to the heart of Jesus. The sounds of Latin touch the soul much more than any spoken English words.

I am so excited that you are making more videos! I love your content!!!

When will Pope Francis have the tango danced in the sanctuary of Saint Peter’s ?

I see Jesus weeping over the splendid chasuble and altar. Take care of your hungry neighbors !! It is not a matter of the liturgical manner but of a contrite heart.

It wasn't controversial for hundreds of years. It is the Novus Ordo that is controversial, and it needs to be abolished.

Isn't it a bit myopic to attempt to discuss a liturgy that you don't know how to say or experience? Just imagine two Latin clergy attempting to critique the Byzantine Rite. THAT is the level of disconnect and disaffection that Traditionalists feel after the Motu Proprio.

my discernment has repeatedly pushed me to more conservative parishes with latin in the liturgy. If enough people hold reverence and want TLM in their community then why keep it from them? I'm talking to you Bishop Vetter(Helena,MT)

Traditional Latin Mass has greater Reverence than Novus ordo . In order to two communities to integrate would best; the Pope gives plenary indulgence every first Sunday of month attended Traditional Latin Mass for those Novus ordo community and vice versa for the Traditional Latin community. This will being closer both communities and respect for each other😊!

As I age, I discover that the facts of life are conservative. Christ will never abandon His Church, and its His--- not ours, not a particular Pope, or a religious order. Don't attempt to make His church what "we" want it to be to match this time or the wants of the people today. Have humility and realize it is we who come to worship Him, it's not about us.

This was an uninspiring and inconclusive talk.

Let me throw a grenade into this! The Roman Communion has, including the Latin, about 23 different Rites. Each has it's own Missal. And the Byzantines have three Divine Liturgy/Mass forms:. SS. James, Basil and John Chrysostom. Later two. Lost of singing, bells and smells. All of these Rites, Missals and Forms are done reverently. Some of these forms are being martyred into extinction in the Middle East. Maybe in this prideful, gnostic liturgical war, we need to look at and love the Eastern Rites in Communion. BTW, in the end of the Anaphora of St. Basil, there are prayers to prevent division in the Church. All need to take a look at it. And take the Doc's medicine. (St. Basil is a Doctor of the Church.)

Suppress the Jesuits

Roll back some of the ABUSES of the Second Vatican Council. The modernists are furious because the TLM makes them look terrible by comparison. No vocations, awful liturgies, declining attendance, and total ignorance and disregard of dogma and the sacraments contrasted with gorgeous liturgies, plenty of men and young families (who are conspicuously absent from modernist parishes), robust vocations and parish communities, love of the sacraments and the faith. It demonstrates the abysmal failure of the post V2 church. The council was not bad, but the hijacking of the church after the council was nothing short of evil.

While I have read the documents of Vatican II and understand and agree on what the reforms where to accomplish. Unfortunately the implementation of the council was a disaster. The Liturgy became a place of experimentation, and abuse. Beauty was stripped from the liturgy and our churches. Versus populum was not mentioned in the council at all either. The liturgy still needs to be reformed, and as many theologians have put forth the Mass should be offer ad orientem. This would place the priest in his rightful position as the one who leads us to God, and reduce the proclivity to become an entertainer at the alter or ambo. Latin and chant were to be retained to some extent, today that is a rarity, some parishes will pray the Sanctus and Agnus dei during advent, Christmas and Easter, being said in Latin at every Mass is reasonable and in line with the council. Our music has become another disaster with emphasis more on the horizonal instead of the vertical. I find in frustrating that all the work put forth by St Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict that put us back on track to properly understand the council seems at times to be pushed aside or rejected by Pope Francis. We had some stability and now I feel the confusion of the 70's has returned.

I could be wrong, but I think Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI is in agreement with Pope Francis. Surely, it's an unprecedented situation of having a living former Pope. Pope Benedict gave license to the TLM. Pope Francis had to discipline it, not abolish it.

So much discussion of the TLM and Vatican Ii, and absolutely NO discussion or even mention, of "Sacrosanctum Concilium," the central operating document of the Second Vatican Council on the Liturgy? Perhaps we should start there, no?

I have seen Extraordinary Ministers abused in every parish near my home. I tried all 3 of them to find a good reverent NO Mass… all finished Mass within 50 minutes because of the overuse. I have witnessed EMHCs BLESSING PEOPLE WITH HOST IN HAND while making the sign of the cross. I have heard from my liturgy director that my home parish has found hosts in pews, on the floor, half missing, in parking lots, and nothing has been done about it. We have guitar masses playing Protestant music while only one plays the organ beautifully… guess which one is full? There’s no war… Vatican 2 was the Holy Spirit saving the TLM and tradition. I’m no prophet, but watch… In 10-20 yrs the only parishes left will be those who offer the TLM or a reverent NO Mass with communion on the tongue. My parish just lost Life Teen for lack of students and it was the best news I’ve ever heard. They’ll return when we return to true Catholicism. And for the record: I’ve read and approve Vatican 2… but WE HAVE TO DO WHAT THE DOCUMENTS SAY!!!

Instead of restricting the TLM why not address the liturgical abuses in the implementation of the Novus Ordo.

I've been attending, almost exclusivly, a 1962 form of the mass since summorum pontificum and belong to a FSSP parish. Practically speaking there's a whole way of life that me an my family have based ourselves around which we cannot really find out side of that parish and it's important to have good support structures for family life. Outside of TLM communities the large Catholic family really isn't a thing anymore. Theoretically speaking I agree the '62 could use reform, my largest reservation is sacrosanctum concilium has great asperations with too many derogations.

The Novus Ordo mass has been the rule of the day for half a century now. That half a century has coincided with a wholesale emptying out of Catholicism in virtually every way, at every level, pretty much everywhere outside of Africa. We have fewer parishioners, fewer donations, fewer priests, fewer nuns, fewer marriages, fewer babies, fewer baptisms, fewer first communions, pretty much everything. I'm not suggesting you can lay each and every part of that at the feet of the new mass, but I don't see how you avoid laying the blame for at least much of it there. You judge a tree by its fruits - that is, its results. Whatever the intentions were, the fruits appear to be mostly rotten. If you want to resolve the "liturgy wars", then the NO and its most fervent adherents need to demonstrate that its far more compatible with the maintenance of traditional Catholic orthodoxy than it presently seems to be.

Abit disappointed you didn’t mention the idea of blending parts of the TLM into the NO such as reciting some basic prayers such as the Our Father, Creed, and Communion prayers such as the Lamb of God in Latin. We have such a rich tradition that was totally ignored post Vatican II. Let’s draw upon that tradition. Also giving parishioners the option of kneeling to receive our Lord and saying the NO facing the east are other steps that would be well received by those seeking more of the sacred.

I'm sick of all this modernism forced onto us by the baby boomer generation. I want traditionalism. I want the Catholicism that existed for 1900 years before they ruined it.