Oh god i just realized there must have been at least one poor soul who probably crapped themselves and then took a leg wound in an area that had been soiled, that's one ungodly infection!
True, but you would probably die from the injury before the infection really sets in if it caused that much organ damage. Plus the torso is the second most likely place to be armored, with fewer gaps than leg armor. I was thinking mainly about the guy that was lucky enough to not be impaled but unlucky enough to have a more minor wound that would be a more slow painful death, the twisted irony!
This was a major issue during the Agincourt campaign when the English army was rife with dysentery, even at the highest ranks with Thomas Courtenay, Bishop of Norwich, dying of the 'bloody flux'.
I seem to recall reading about how it was so bad, that the archers just stripped below the waist and let it drop where they stood. And were basically up to their ankles in their own waste. I don't recall the source for this though. It does give a rather vivid and horrific image of disease's impact though.
That, I believe, came from Keegan. Most scholars these days, however, believe that the archers had untied their hose for better ease of movement on the muddy battlefield.
I also recall reading about a siege during the crusades but I don't remember which one.But basically muslims where besieging a city held by crusaders for an extended period of time.That led to dysentery outbreak inside the city and when they assault came most the defenders had ripped the part of the pants under their ass.The muslim historian who wrote about this mentioned that after the siege the streets smelled like shit more than anything else
How about this: a bathroom emergency situation in Armor arises, you're in the woods, doing your thing, and here comes a really pissed off boar. (Heard that in a movie ounce) Would that be considered as Plot Armor?
A soldier that has not ready his weapon at hand at all times deserves to die in shame. You don't want your mother to receive a letter saying "Your son was killed from taking an unarmed dump while being totally useless in the defense of his country"
There is a scene in the tv series "Sopranos" where they try a guys quality for being with the team as a gangster, and they take him as the driver to an armed robbery. So the "apprentice" sits behind the steering wheel of the car, waiting for the other guys to come back from the hold up, and when he hears gunshots being fired, he knows shit is seriously going down. He gets so frightened about the situation that he pees on himself, but he stays put and ready. The next moment, the other two guys return with the booty, running from the successfull robbery. They jump into the car, the driver takes off and they make their escape unharmed in perfect manner. Afterwards, the two experienced men that did the dangerous part of the job discuss the performance of the aspiring mobster, one says, well, I don't know, he peed on himself. But the other gangster, the leader of the team says, so what, he did his job perfectly, he peed on himself, but he didn't made any fuss about it, didn't bother to say one word about it, he dealt with it like a professional, he got what it takes. I imagine that was kind of the general attitude among the fearless knights in shining armour, that sought eternal glory in bloody battle on how these basic bodily functions best be dealt with. They knew shit happens they just didn't felt the need to print this on a t-shirt. I guess most people watching these videos are familiar with the fact that during most, if not all military campaigns from antiquity to the 20th century a large percentage of the soldiers suffered at some point from severe diarrhoe, caused by some infectuous disease. St.George himself probably shit in his iron pants during the glorious course of his heroic, knightly adventures.
Well, the issue does go through everyone's mind. I remember reading Steinbeck's 'Cannery Row', and this man was attempting to break a record by skating on an enclosed platform on top of a pole for days. The folks in Monterey asked him questions, but the one thing on everyone's mind went unquestioned and obsessed about until a man and his wife got in a fight about it. Finally the husband went out in the middle of the night and just blurted out, 'How do you go to the toilet up there?' And the skater matter-of-factly answered, 'I've got a can up here.' Thank you for a frank explanation about the toilet psychology in battle and the various configurations of armor.
I found that when I was in the Army, I wouldn't crap for days in the field. Maybe it was just the food, but I find the same playing Airsoft. I also tend to think that, in a war where every enemy soldier doesn't have an automatic death machine that can kill you at 300 meters, you probably have more opportunities to do your business unmolested. You'd probably elicit some pointed comments if the enemy were in line of sight though.
People had different reactions, I know at least a couple Marines that had the opposite reaction, although that may have been poor hygiene come to think of it.... Regardless, the main reason I wouldn't put it on MREs is because I didn't shit regularly for like a week in boot camp, and we were eating chow hall food. I think stress just bottles you up.
Cook At boot camp I think it's the unfamiliarity with the open stalls that causes people to not want to shit for the first week or so. By the end, it comes natural. After the Crucible when you have the warrior's breakfast, you have 85-odd recruits stinking up the squad bay in the worst way ever.
I think it's part stress and part your body just putting on its game face. I have the same reaction now when I go shoot plastic pellets at my friends after a normal breakfast, or when I do HEMA stuff. I mean you do eventually have to do it, and I would think there were plenty of brown-trousers moments in medieval battles, but I don't think it was that hard to manage your pooping as long as you didn't mind having an audience.
Reminds me of that bit in Iron Man 2: "You know, the question I get asked most often is, "Tony, how do you go to the bathroom in the suit?"" [pauses with eyes closed] "Just like that."
I remember... I think it's in the first book of Conn Iggulden's War of the Roses series(brilliant books, btw) that we have a scene wherein Thomas Percy, baron Egremont returns home after the battle of Heworth Moor. As he walks through the castle halls, he realises that he stinks with his own urine and feces, having had to relieve himself inside of his armour several times during the fight.
I've read accounts from US soldiers/marines in Iraq and Afghanistan where they just shat themselves because they were in the middle of an insurgent attack with machine guns, mortars, and RPGs, and so had much more important things to worry about than dignity. When you have the time, you can take an awkward poop in combat gear. If you don't have the time, then you do what you have to do, and worry about your pants later.
I've seen similar accounts from a number of conflicts. The worst were from the trenches of WWI, when dysentery left men so weakend that they often wallowed and drowned in the mud mixed with excrement, lacking the strength to stand.
World War One , I read during Seven Year War in one battle the French army had dysentery so bad they was ordered not to wear pants. Then In W . W. One I read men made diapers . Not something you write home about. I'd say in real battle not reenactments many would have had made diapers. It would have been a hell to clean under field conditions even to find water . Wood ash most common ,if lucky. vinegar It's a older post ,just thought on the hell of warr..
I can't remember where I read it, but one of the first duties of a servant/squire was to clean the armor with salt and vinegar to remove the mess left behind in armor after a battle. I wish I knew the damn source of it so I could try and validate it! X_X
I seem to recall something similar. I think it was from a TV show on the History Channel or something, so grain of salt needed (at least they didn't say aliens cleaned the armor). But even without the feces or urine, I could see cleaning out the sweat and blood and such being important. Sweat will probably rust armor pretty well considering it's salt content.
It's complicated enough to take a leak in modern armor. When I was in the Marine Corps, we had the Interceptor vests which we had to wear with the collar, throat protector, and groin protector. Between the groin protector, the various magazine pouches/IFAK/vest itself, and the rifle slung across your chest, getting to everything wasn't as simple as most men are generally used to.
When I was checking out when I EASed, they were issuing out the MTVs. I never wore one myself. I envy the kids these days with their plate carriers and high cut helmets and M27s and silencers and dual tube NVGs. They have WAY better toys than we did in my day
@@MrEvanfriend They ride better than the interceptor, but they cover much more and get hotter and heavier, unless you count the interceptor with the side SAPIs. I got one the year before I EAS'd. Yeah, these kids have real nice stuff! I think their helmets could float too. My grandpa was a Korean War vet and he would always wonder how we could even move with all of our gear.
Alas, I've found I can endure all day when I'm on a medieval fair (relieving myself at morning and at night). Not eating a lot on those times helps and I figure during a campaign it'd be the same.
i obviously cant attest to its accuracy, but i remember seeing a movie in which they had to defecate within their tournament armor, and there was a stall with an elevated bucket for flushing them out. sounds lovely.
I recall one instance when my platoon was going through infantry training, one of my buddy needed to go, however, the instructor didn't let him and shouted "if you're in a life and death situation, you wouldn't have the luxury to take a piss!" and put him back in the fire team. My buddy ended up urinating himself, nothing to be ashamed of though. I heard same situation happened to other platoons before, and those recruits didn't have the discipline to push through the training, and ran to the bathroom despite the instructor didn't allow them to go.
I was wondering about this watching a Shadiversity video the other day, and I never got an answer and the thing is I always wondered about how this was done but only if I'm thinking of armor, and well... I don't think about armor enough but when I do it's the first thing to pop into my mind. So After years of wanting to know, I now know. Thank you!
In a military sense, camouflage as we know it would have been basically useless. Camouflage is meant to break up the silhouette of a person and help them to blend in with the environment around them, which really wouldn't have been necessary in a medieval or even Renaissance battle where early firearms would have been used. Battles were mostly fought either on a predetermined battlefield, out in the open with both armies already in view of one another, or as smaller scale skirmishes that took place wherever they happened to be at the time. Our modern camouflage patterns evolved out of a need to conceal troops from an enemy that uses firearms exclusively, which are much more accurate and have greater range than the muskets and arquebus of those days. Warfare has undergone dramatic changes since then, bearing little (if any) resemblance to pitched battles involving armies concentrated in block formations. Medieval hunters, however, have been known to use branches and bits of greenery to hide the silhouette of their face, as well as wearing green clothing to better blend in with the forests while hunting deer. Gray was known to be used in the winter, instead of green, mostly while hunting wild boar. There are some writings you can research that go into deeper detail about hunting in medieval times, if you're interested, but you may have to find translations for them if you can't read the languages into which they've already been translated; Les livres du roi Modus et de la reine Ratio Livre de Chasse-which has an English translation called The Master of Game, with some added chapters pertaining to English hunting. It can be found here: www.archive.org/stream/masterofgameoldexx00edwa/masterofgameoldexx00edwa_djvu.txt
+Shaek Wrestler during the 1700s some British redcoats soldiers(light infantry) and american snipers had camouflage. You can be camouflaged if you wear a green gambeson with black pants in the woods, or white gambeson and pants during winter. But it is impossible to camouflage with plate or mail. But there is one way to camouflage with plate and that is wearing a surcoat color that matches the color of the environment
You've been bulking up? ;) It must be inconvenient, to have armor made for your measures and them bulk up or shredding and having it not fit as well anymore. Is that a big issue you have to consider or is the armor fitting more related to the length of your limbs and body than of muscle volume?
It depends on the specific piece. What you're really seeing is my slow recovery from shoulder surgery, so most of my armor was made to 'pre-surgery' measurements, not when I lost a whole bunch of weight afterwards (which is around when I started making videos), so it hasn't been too much of an issue as I gain weight again, but it can absolutely cause all kinds of problems for armor.
I've been working with an armourer to reconstruct an experimental WW1 armour developed by America. While I doubt that it was designed for using the bathroom, it has a removable groin plate which I would imagine helps in that regard.
Yes! I read Dean's book on World War 1 armour a while back and was just fascinated by it. We're trying to recreate the "Light Body Armor" that he helped develop. Even though Dean's book is full of details both me and the armourer I'm working with wish it included more.
I don't usually comment on RU-vid videos, but I have recently stumbled uppon your channel, and has been a very instructive experience. the comment is just to thank you, Ian. Keep up the awesome videos. Kind regards from Brazil! Yours truly, Henrique!
Fight or Flight response for most ALL animals is to take a poop or crap from adrenaline or fear induced autonomic nerve energy during life or death fighting or fleeing..
Upward-lapping fauld plates can collapse all the way upwards around the waist and out of the way. Don't go with a downward-lapper, as it will only flex a little, but it won't go anywhere, and you are gonna be stuck like Chuck without side buckles.
I would like to mention that your body automatically conserves water when you're exhausted and also many of the soldiers were too hungry to even need to defecate so it probably wouldn't be a super big issue
as somebody who also has a suit of armor himself i can absolutely agree to this. I have a quite later model of armor (mid 15th ctr.) and all i need to do is losen the upper straps of the legs to access what i need to access. Also, you give much more points and in depth answers to this question (which is, and i swear its true, the most common question i get asked right after "how heavy is this?"). Normally i say that i make dietary precautions like eating MRE biscuits. Now i can actually give an in depth answer. Thank you very much, very informative!
On one hand we could study possible differences in diet styles back then that might result in cleaner or less clean bowel movements, and we could examine frequency based on eating patterns and metabolic rate. But on the other hand there is also that evolutionary reflex of lightening your load when experiencing immediate mortal fear, so it might not matter much. But in any case, diet comparisons back then vs. today are interesting. There seem to be differences between cultures even today. There is that memorable anecdote of an airport worker who commented on emptying sanitary tanks of Japanese airliners and how 'their shit doesn't stink'.
Maybe most knight poop and piss before each Battle formation after all you dont eat and drink during a battle if You don't drink You dont have to pie a lot. And you can hold your poop for one or two days is not that hard.
Rather than my previous question, I really need to know how to keep heat under control in my armor. My arming garments are black which does not help heat, but are there any ways that I could make it as cool as possible inside mail and plate?
I must say that i admire You for taking time with all those childish questions allways popping up, this particular question seems to be the main question among people, no matter if we talking about space engineering, underwater, etc... Guess it´s in our nature, even if i think most of us allredy can figure things out, one still want to hear the real ansvear from a pro. I remember when they first time had an online interview with a Astronaut from my country and i tried to ask some tecnical questions about tha equipmen onboard, but my commentline was completly owerpower by a massive load of this question; "How do one sh*t in space??" like we all did not read those kids books about NASA missions in the scool library... but still people wanted to hear it directly from him... ha ha.
I'm just back from a tournament weekend and I had some of the problems you mention. For urinating, i already noticed that the problem is more the groin cup you're wearing (so a modern regulation) rather than gambeson or mail. For the rest : well you can hold your poop for a while and when you're fighting, adrenalin kicks in and you don't really think about that anymore. Other thing I noticed : you sweat so much in fights that you don't even need to pee. But that's a tournament context; where you can easily take of your armour between two rounds. Not to be compared with soldiers marching all day long with their gear on.
One thing to consider is that even in camp most men would not have the use of a chair-type toilet, but would have squatted rather than sat. (It is possible that the richer knights and nobles would have brought along a chasse-perce'e enclosing a chamber pot or bucket, since they seem to have brought along as much luxury as possible on campaign.) Maybe reenactors should experiment with this
Taijess Basnaw Lindybeige talked about this in a video and gave account of a Greek warrior who lost his vision in battle without having any injury (he probably saw sights so gruesome his brain entered a state of shock and turned his eyes "off").
PTSD is partly a result of our modern Western culture that abhors killing other human beings. In medieval times violence was constantly present in everyday life even outside military service; from brutish parenting methods to the relatively high chance of getting attacked by robbers, or dying from horrible diseases like the plague, or witnessing bloody executions and mutilated corpses of criminals, witches and heretics. People were used to seeing horrors. On the other hand, our (Finnish) WW2 veterans have stated that the most stressful situations they faced were long-lasting artillery shellings -- stuff you can't do anything about. They said it was terrible hearing the guns fire, because they knew that the sky would crash down upon them 20 seconds later, and all they could do was to hope it won't strike them too close. Yet they intercepted and stopped the massive Red Army with the help of their own artillery's supremely accurate fire that obliterated entire enemy divisions. Already WW1 gave birth to the term "shell shock", referring to soldiers who had lost their sanity under artillery bombardment. I guess that modern weaponry is in many ways so unnatural when compared to close-range melee combat (or even ranged combat where you can still see your enemy) that our psychology simply hasn't been designed to cope with it that well.
during a living history demo a couple weekends ago I was in my Churburg 13 inspired harness and had a touch of food poisoning. I was able to step away, untie and unbuckle my cuisses, drop my braies and use the Port o John with no issues.
Knights have been training in full plate armor for yrs, heatstroke will not be a problem. But there is a way, lift you visor or remove your helmet. Those are two basic methods
Training only gets you so far. All human beings, regardless of training are susceptible to heat injuries. Even in the modern military, the most conditioned and physically fit people can and do still succumb to heat exhaustion and heat stroke if they're not careful. In period, training had to do with it, climate probably played a part, there's the logistical side of supplying water to the men-at-arms (which I'd like to know more about), but at the end of the day we (at least I) don't know how else they mitigated the dangers of heat exposure. Knights were not superhuman.
Serieus question. Most field armors bassicly had a skirt to protect the lower body, sow would they ever just wear hozen without underwear and have things just hanging out, sow you can go without soiling yourself?
Usually this things happening before the battle. Human physiology forces body to remove wastes from inside, that in case of wound in the stomach reduce the risk of intoxication\poisoning.
All the combat vets I've ever talked to from WWI through to the present have all said when you're getting shot at and you need to go you just go. (At Harfleur the English were suffering from dysentery so I imagine they may have even forgone with wearing some of the undergarments around that area.)
Actually, it came to my mind a specific situation told by Jean de Joinville. In the Louis IX crusade, as the army was plagued by dysentery, the king and many others are reported to have cut the back part of the mail to be able to defecate faster.
reminds me of the early american astronauts: there was the famous case of alan shepard being told to "do it in the suit" when he needed to urinate on the 'mercury-redstone 3' flight (the flight itself was only about 15 minutes, but he had to wait several hours on the pad to be cleared for launch). after that they gave them diapers :)
BTW, isn't it a thing that you should have an empty stomach (as in be after defecation) when you go into combat? I heard something along the lines that a serious stomach injury might get way worse if you still have seomthing putting pressure on the digestive tract from inside. So, most soldiers shouldn't have the need to poop, unless they're in armor for a very long time, if that is true and known to them. Am I correct in this?
For them what don’t lose their bowels in fear, the fight or flight aspect of the autonomic nervous system tightens up those sphincters and keeps your mind off it.
@@trevdestroyer8209them with dysentery tended not to be in armor or fighting, as evidenced by Henry V sending his ill back to England prior to Agincourt.
Colonel Grossman's work and research methodology has been called into question regarding whether troops actually shot to kill. Regardless, I enjoyed your day in the life style of this video!
i was in a fencing tournament a few weeks ago, and, just before the roll call, i was alredy in my armor, i felt this massive shit coming to my arse, so i go there, and start fighting my own equipment, and i was really painfull tryng to not let anything fall in the toilet and not losing anything
I pissed, and nearly crapped, myself in combat in Afghanistan. It happens, big whoop. Rather walk home with my britches full of scuff than come home in a box because I tried to call a time out to take a leak.
Thanks 4 gracefully putting the pee and the poo into the proper perspective. Meanwhile, I'm left wondering what search words you used to locate the manuscript image @ 1:20.
Looking at modern soldiers it's far more likely they literally shit themselves. The armor itself can be cleaned, briefs are easy to toss for someone of affluence, and in a battle you're going to be pretty vulnerable. Far better to just let it out while fighting and let your poor servants deal with the mess.
This might be beside the point, or not, depending on your perspective, but at a point in my life i was in a stressful situation for an extended period of time (1 week) and in that time ... I peed normally but as for well defecating (to put in bluntly) I did not, like at all. I ate normally, but I just never felt the need, afterward everything returned to normal, and i suffered no lasting ill effects from the ordeal. Strange but whatever. So maybe some of those guys, just did not go to the bathroom, like you said they had other stuff to worry about.
defecating and urinating can be triggered as a physical responce in "fight or flight" situations when "flight" wins. There are serveral attmpts of explenation, starting with loosing balast to run faster or to evoke "small child pattern". I pissed myslef when beaten by cops with no outlook for either of those "benefits" so there are more reasons for sure.
Have y ou ever had an opportunity to wear the whole Henry 8th full body armour you spoke of in this vid? or do you know anyone who has actually had one built for them selves?
The Army has since figured out how to prevent soldiers from pooping themselves. Feed them foods that will block them up. They can't poop themselves if they can't poop.
Knyght Errant: thank you! I recently started bohurt as a hobby and I was quite concerned of how do I get along with it because I have a small bladder. "Is there any type of armour where I'm able to pee without taking most of the armour off" and so on. Now I'm not worried anymore :)
