How Did Shinzon Happen? 

The Tasha Yar fan theory makes sense BECAUSE she's from a Federation on a war footing; the Romulans would be able to tell she's not from their timeline, and would be intrigued at the prospect of a militant Picard and the chaos he could cause to a more pacifistic Federation, especially if the alternate Tasha Yar revealed the militant Federation was on the backfoot, compared to the "paper tiger" pre-Dominion-War Federation of the main timeline.

If we ever get another series focusing on the Dominion War, I’d love it if the writers added little Easter eggs like “Romulans are sending in a reinforcement of shock troops. Centurion Shinzon will be leading them.” Or “The Romulans have made several incursions into Dominion-held territory. So far Captains Narel, Valak, and Shinzon are making progress, while captains Hira and Nadar were forced to pull back.”

Back in Starfleet Command: Orion Pirates I came up with the idea of having the Reman Star Empire as my clan, the lore of which was that I was a Reman who overthrew the Romulan government, little did I know I was predicting an actual Star Trek storyline...

It is interesting to realize that Shinzon did more during the Dominion war than Picard since the Federation doesn't like putting the Enterprise on the front lines of major wars

I personally like Nemesis, not just because the Bassen Rift battle is so epic, but it poses the question of just how scary and ruthless Jean-Luc would be if he wasn't raised by Starfleet ideals.

I know Nemesis gets a lot of flack for being bad, but I think if you ignore the first 20 minutes it's a pretty solid film, and Shinzon is one of the film series' more interesting villains.

Shinzon was the sort of antagonist well-suited to a full TV series. Alas.

Just the fact that Picard was Captain of the Enterprise (THE FLAGSHIP) would have been proof they needed of Picard's worth. They don't put just anyone in command of a legacy ship

Hollywood storytelling in general only had a brief period - I'd say 2004-2011 - when it was in a good place to tell Shinzon's story right. Prior to that, every villain was too campy and comic book evil. Now, the pervasive desire is to try to make them all seem like a "villain with a heart of gold." Shinzon needed a "evil, but still redeemable" treatment, and that's just not possible right now. I actually think the way JJ Abrams did Nero in Star Trek 2009 would've been perfect for Shinzon. Once you understood how Nero became Nero, you didn't sympathize with him, but at least you could understand why he was the way he was. The best villains are like that - they don't make you question whether they're villains or not, but they do make you question what you'd do yourself if you found yourself in the same situation. The best villains aren't a dark mirror for their hero. Instead, they're a dark mirror for us, the audience.

One positive thing that shinzon had that he freed the Remens from a continuous cycle of slavery and while not shown I can see him appointing some to positions of authority if not power within Romulan society. LLNP

Now imagine that the movie didn't have humans involved, but would be mostly a reman-romulan movie, with starfleet only shown from the reman perspective

The Romulans were eager to get their hands on genetic material from a number of Starfleet captains at once. They grew clones of them all, hoping any one of those captains would go on to matter.

When I first heard they were going to be Romulans in Nemesis... 🥳👍 And then the bad guy just turns out to be a clone of a human. 🤦 I WANTED ROMULANS!

I 💚 Shinzon

Imagine if in another alternate reality in STO we see Shinzon as a Starfleet captain.

Id love a tv series that was basically a romulan political drama. That would be so much fun.

I wonder how many Remans were left after the Supernova destroyed their world. Could there have been many off world at the time?

Thanks again Rick! I think the main takeaway from Nemesis was that a shell is not a core of character. It was handled rather feebly storywise but I thought both Tom Hardy and Patrick Stewart did very well with what they had to illustrate that a shell, put through different experiences, could still be excellent at what it does. Sort of like the purpose of Trading Places (1984). This was all hammered home by the inclusion of B4 in the tale. Something which wasn't built on properly in my opinion.

Ty for the video and LLAP!

Great vid. Thanks mate! 😎👍

Damn good presentation. That was the movie we should have gotten.

I'm trying to wrap my brain around why the Romulans need to mine dilithium when they use singularity cores to power their ships, not antimatter. I suppose it's plausible that they could use dilithium for other reasons, but I'm still calling it a plot hole.

Very informative and helpful

I mean, the theory may have its holes, but it’s still sound - Yes, they only knew that in an alternate future, now made impossible by the returning but ultimately defeating of the Enterprise-C, Jean-Luc Picard becomes the captain of the next Starfleet ship to bear the name Enterprise. So they didn’t know that Picard would still command the Enterprise in the timeline to come, but they knew he’d be a figure of influence and importance - certainly someone trusted in a war position. I can even imagine that whoever had originally planned Shinzon’s infiltration operation, they may have been making critical decisions about Shinzon’s role, since the events of TNG:”The Neutral Zone” - albeit they would only have confirmed that Picard now does command Starfleet’s flagship, and not much else. From there, I can picture a teenage Shinzon perhaps being trained up to replace Picard, whilst his handlers - who perhaps included a Reman - were likely making strategic decisions based on a few things happening within the same few years: Picard continued his command of the Enterprise, but Romulan intelligence would’ve passed on his logs, and shown further events unfolding, such as TNG:”Conspiracy”, which would have shown Picard’s first officer had a deeply trusting friendship with him, and this would make Shinzon’s infiltration unviable. On the other hand, other voices would have insisted that replacing Picard still had considerable value: He had become Arbiter of Succession in the Klingon Empire, he outsmarted a plot to use the defection of Admiral Jarok to get the Enterprise captured, and his crew had thwarted an attempt to assassinate a Klingon governor. It’s likely that contentious decisions were made, right up to 2367, by which time Ambassador Spock’s Unification movement would have become known to Romulan officials - I believe this would have also altered any plans around Shinzon. Shinzon’s backstory in “Nemesis” implies that he was condemned to the mines of Remus quite early, but I believe this may have actually happened as late as 2367, probably some time between the TNG episodes “Best of Both Worlds pt 2” and “Redemption pt 2”. This still would have meant Shinzon was in the Reman mines for at least 7 years, before being brought out for drafting in the Dominion War. It’s a reasonable length of time to have caused him severe mental trauma, and made him sympathetic to the Remans.

I would love to know how and where he managed to build the Schimitar

Aside from the goofy outfits the premise and performances were really good

I personally loved Nemesis but if Shizon was say tamlak (I think I spelled that right) from TNG it would been a way better movie

See, I absolutely loved Nemesis 🥺😅

I think it goes ... When mummy and daddy really love each other ... Oh wait, that's not quite right 🖖🏽

I just dont buy that they could 'take over' the Romulan empire with the Scimitar and a few like minded traitors, even after wiping out the senate and the loss of the Tal-Shiar. The rest of the fleet would have regrouped and wiped them out soon enough. Still Nemesis is one of the 'better' TNG movies, imo. Even with the dumb B4 subplot. Those movies were generally not very good.

Hang on they created a clone from a DNA sample surely all he needs was a blood sample from Picard and a replicator to maintain his life.

Ooh, this one's easy. Some writers got it through their heads that they needed to invent a true nemesis for Picard, and then utterly failed to do so.

It would have been interesting if General Picard had been replaced by the Confederation timeline Shinzon.

It took Shinzon time to get diagnosed by a Romulan who has some experience in human ailments.

Would Shinzon also have the Borg modifications that created Jack’s unique position in the Borg plan?

As silly as the premise is, I think "Nemesis" could have worked very well if the movie had centered on the Remans and if they had only partially liberated themselves then reached out to Starfleet for support for them to finish securing their freedom. It would make sense for the Federation to be wary of taking them up on this since a) there'd be no guarantee the Remans would succeed even with the Federation's help and b) the Federation would still be recovering from the Borg incursions and Dominion War and wanting to keep the better relations they'd achieved with the Romulan Star Empire rather than throwing it into jeopardy. Picard being sent by the Federation to try to monitor the situation and arbitrate with these restrictions in mind would have been a very tough ethical quandary for him even before literally seeing a younger version of himself on the side of the formerly enslaved people who'd freed themselves. I don't know how you make Shinzon an effective villain given his backstory and social situation without putting your thumb on the scale too far. Maybe you have his plan be something like a mirror of "In the Pale Moonlight" where he's trying to blow up the Enterprise and make it look like the Romulans did it because that's what he needs for the Federation to give up on their alliance with the Star Empire and support the Remans. Or maybe the fight is truly hopeless for the Remans, and the Remans are trying to make the Romulan sun go supernova and destroy everyone rather than be forced back into generations of enslavement again with the Enterprise trying to stop them. Tom Hardy as Shinzon had the potential to be a dark mirror for Picard, a "What would you do to save billions of people on Earth from the Borg? Wouldn't you do anything?" sort of thing. The ticking clock of his biology killing him so he felt burdened with purpose, already closer to death than Picard was. But we didn't get anything like that in the actual movie "Nemesis".

"You killed our leader, guess youre the leader now" makes for a great government

Hi Rick, all here!

not necessarily a dark mirror more like a shadow of probabilities if there was a chance Picard knew of shinzon earlier i know Picard would use some of his blood to save his life and take time to help shinzon to break free from the loads of bull-Jameson he learned from the star empire, and contact with Picard and having the help he needed would have given Picard his dream of having a family years ahead before his son with Beverly came to pass but if Picard doing the protection and rehabilitating shin to live life free that might have changed those events yet to come or made them more known, so many what ifs as Q would say with a giggle, things could have worked out for the better for them all, all in the matter of being in the right place and right time.

So the movie can happen!

Now imagine current Tom Hardy as Shinzon. He's a beast lol

Rather liked the movie. Always love more romulan content

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Haaa interesting ! Go on !!

This raises a question for me. I only thought of this as I'd just rewatched "Unification," but has there been anything said as to what Spock was doing during Shinzon's takeover? Far as I know he was still on Romulus teaching the people about Vulcan, but a political upheaval that big couldn't have left him and his plans unaffected, right?

Shinzon could had just... you know.... gone into cryogenic sleep..........

I didn't think Nemesis was that bad. Wasn't amazing but it was a good movie

I will always mourn for Diane Duane's far superior backstory for the Romulans that was rendered in conflict with canon by Tom Hardy And The Fish People.

They could have put him into cryo stasis while working on a cure

I think Nemesis would have worked better if Shinzon was a protagonist, trying to rescue Reman veterans (and their families) of the Dominion war from being redacted. And Picard ending up being a father figure to Shinzon.

What a loss. Nemesis should have gone like this... Everything is the same except for when Shinzon "beams" to the Enterprise. Ok instead of that, we get Sela beaming into the captains ready room for a really audience GASP moment. She has that affect. Long story short she says it was all her idea to take Shinzon and run him through to the end killing the senate. yes yes, so she beams away the rest pretty much happens as is but one of the Valdor commanders coming in would have to be Tomalock. He is pissed Sela killed the senate and wants revenge. Its his ship that gets wacked and he dies so no romulan ail for him! Now tell me would that not have been so much better? You can really work in all the nitty gritty w/ that too in plot and cannon. Im shocked it was not used.

Bro.. how have you not done a shatnerverse video?

How would the Romulans put the memories of Picard into Shinzon. Some form of telepathy or tech?

Shinzon just needed a complete blood transfusion? Could they not replicate that?

The whole Shinzon storyline doesn't hold up to much scrutiny. When the clone program was axed they would have simply killed him. If the program was axed because it was considered too risky (presumably because of the risk of exposure) then why risk keeping him alive? For one more miner? When they already have a slave species of miners? I don't think so. They certainly would never have allowed him anywhere near a Remen warship during the Dominion War as that would also risk exposure. Not to mention that the Romulans are kind of racist. There's no way they would ever have accepted for a moment a human being in charge of the Empire. Let alone a human backed by Remans. Yes, they fielded a couple of ships against him under the command of Donatra but they would have thrown the entire fleet against him and then genocided the entire Remen species. The whole thing was kind of stupid. Not nearly as stupid as things that have happened in Star Trek since, but still stupid. Certainly stupid for the time in which it was written.

Out of the two Wrath of Khan 1982 remakes, Nemesis 2002 was vastly, VASTLY superior to Into Darkness 2013. Nemesis at least had a unique aesthetic going for it, fleshed out a lot of Romulan Star Empire lore on screen; and a scene setting, interesting antagonist. That Into Darkness is rated way higher just shows how fad biased movie ratings are. People were long tired of NextGen movies by 2002 and frankly Insurrection was blah. Whereas braindead J.J.Abrams popcorn munchers would still be all the rage for some years after 2013.

Because Sela lacked street cred.

Perhaps Mike Stoklasa's most hated character

Ever notice the Remins look like the Orcs

I did like Nemesis. Though I do not think it was worthy of a movie. It was more like a episode of TNG, not the gallant crews last film

The best answer is simply "Politics."

Sorry not sorry Nemesis was better than Star trek 5. I just don't get why the hate for this movie

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Another excellent video, Rick. I don't hate anything. Hate is a very strong emotion. I have an immense dislike of the film Star Trek Nemesis.Depressing film. Horrible director. Live long and prosper, my friend. 🖖🙂

Like Spock's Brain and Discovery, Nemesis doesn't meet the minimum quality threshold to count as canon. But bless you for trying to make sense of it.

but also at that time Picard was in a near oblivious transparent position, someone who would be right under the radar of suspicion, to walk right on in and sneak about with ease of access make friends then work their way up the ladder if you will then start sneaking out secrets one or two at a time very discretely no one the wiser would catch on almost the perfect plan, just add him in at an attacked outpost wound him a little the federation takes him in thinking he was just a settler and takes him to earth to cure him of anything wrong and from there as i mentioned close to being fool proof, just the changing of governments messed up plan A,

A nice lore video based on my very least favourite Star Trek film. A+: Wrath of Khan & Voyage Home A: First Contact, Search for Spock, Undiscovered Country B+: Motion Picture, Beyond C+: Final Frontier C: 2009 D+: Generations D-: Insurrection F: Into Darkness, Nemesis

How was that Tom Hardy?

Nothing in the apocrypha about why the Romulans would send a child to work in the mines, rather than just off him?

I was annoyed with the whole Remans are Romulan alien slaves instead of being just Romulans on Remus.

I thought Shinzon was a good villain.

Ya, in full context it really is wasted potential. What can ya do though?

That movie was freaking awful, it's the worst Trek movie by a HUGE margin. The #2 place isn't even close. "I hate the Romulans for what they did to me, so I'm going to attack Earth." Um, what?

Shinzon happened because the writers had a bad idea....end of video/thread

How did Shinzon happen? Tom Hardy wasn't famous enough yet to tell the producers that the script sucked.

I thought that the character was interesting but the film was poorly written and directed. Frakes would have fixed most of this.

So basically hes acting out and just wants to be a real boy lol

Bad writing is how he happened. What a trash movie.

It's a faaaaaake!

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Bad writing 🤔🤣

You needed a 13-minute video just to say bad writing? Damn...

Bad writing... thats how.

Shinzon just wanted to be a real boy lol jk