How do you climb by yourself... SAFELY??? 

Our top rope solo gear guide hownot2.com/trs-guide --- LEAD ROPE SOLO episode is out now ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-9NxGPzFSHPU.html

I once TRS a 5.9 and when I got to the middle ledge I realized to my horror that both of my devices were unlocked. The sound of both micro trax clicking shut made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. From now on, I always weight my devices before climbing a route. Always triple check your systems folks.

Been TR soloing since shortly after I began climbing 12 years ago due to my love of solitude in the mountains as well as lack of partners. This channel is a treasure for folks hoping to get into it, as is this gentleman who started AVANT climbing. Ive seen so many sketchy practices of rope soloists out there. Hoping this video gets a million views.

Thanks for the great video. When I project I usually use a two strand setup. One strand with the Micro Trax and the second strand pre-rigged with a Grigri. When holding the Micro Trax up with the bungee cord there is no interference between the two strands. When climbing up I pull the slack out on the "Grigri" strand from time to time and tie a slip knot below. When on the crux (or at the section I want to project) I don't care about the slack on the Grigri side anymore.... Whith this setup I can rapiddly change between climbing and rappelling. For rapelling just clip an ascender to the second strand and pull on it, weight the Grigri, disengage the Micro Trax, unclip the ascender and go down a few meters. When start climbing again just engage the Micro Trax again and go on climbing. I tend to see converting between climbing and rapelling as the biggest danger. I try to avoid this as much as possible. However, I only use one Micro Trax on the first rope. I consider the second strand with the Grigri as redundancy.

As an Arborist I really enjoy learning about all the Knowledge You Rock Climbers Have!

That slipknot trick for re-fixing is genius, wish I had known that years ago. In fact, I wish this video had existed when I learned TRS back in 2020! Great work fellas.

People talk about rope solo climbing like it’s super dangerous and frown when you say it like you do it, as if you’ve got a death wish. The truth is it’s literally what people who climb for a living in the rigging and rope access industry do every day. It’s really no different to jumaring up a rope except really you are just dragging the jumar with you instead of fully weighting it, as you use the rock as your ladder. Great video by the way as always!

This is probably the best video out there on TRS! I really wish I had this as a resource two years ago when I was learning how to do it! Excited to see the LRS version. Thanks for putting so much time into these.

Best tutorial/video about TRS available. Although I do exactly as they do, it's very nice to have no doubts now.

TAZ Lov2 as Primary and RollNLock as Backup is by far the best combo. And I’ve literally tried them all. Yes, the Lov2 is expensive and yes it has a hard to find sweatspot for lowering. But you CAN lower with it without any change to the system at all and it still glides up the rope just like a Micro Trax. The RollNLock is the perfect backup for it, because you don’t have to remove it for lowering. The cam can be disengaged TEMPORARILY with just 2 fingers while lowering with the other hand on the Lov2. If something were to happen, the RnL immediately grabs once you let the 2 fingers go. Try doing that with a Micro Trax; I got my finger caught in the teeth and it hurt my finger pretty badly. Pretty much impossible with the RnL. The RnL can’t be disengaged by the Lov2 pressing on it if it were to fail. Lov2 needs roughly 20cm pivot to engage, which I find really good as it gives you some leeway when you messed up a move and need to „downclimb“ ever so slightly. Also Lov2 can be pushed down with one hand easily if you have to downclimb more than that. The RnL can also be easily disengaged and pushed down with one hand. So again: With this combo you set it up on the ground, then free climb 5 meters, lower, climb again, lower, climb again, so on and so forth, WITHOUT any change to the system. I don’t even bring a GriGri anymore when I go TRS as I can rap on the Lov2 just as fine. I appreciate the video and learned quite a few nifty details. Still, I am surprised how rarely the Lov2 is mentioned in TRS videos.

I'm an amateur arborist and don't rock climb, but 1 thing I think I can contribute is at 18:20 when you talk about adding more knots/twists to your "Not a Munter", the added "Macramé " can slip out. There's a well known arborist on RU-vid called TreeMuggs who has several videos showing how to tie a slip knot he uses in rigging called a "Daisy Chain Hitch". It's extremely effective, never slips, and very easy to untie after unweighted. Many arborists around the world are now using it with great success after seeing his first video of it about 7 years ago. Check it out if you want... ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-7P5MSSrBOTU.html&pp=ygUbdHJlZW11Z2dzIGRhaXN5IGNoYWluIGhpdGNo

OMG 1h long! Will watch 100% soon! Well done guys!

Well done! Nice to see folks talking about how your counterweight pulls on your body when traversing or even on overhanging climbing without a back clip. And super nice to have someone talk about your counterweight resting on the ground or a ledge and introducing slack into the system. And most importantly, the danger of slack in the system. TRS is a broad topic with many solutions in many different situations, you’ll probably get another thousand comments out of this one! Thanks guys

Loved it guys! best video yet on TRS. I top rope solo a lot on a Croll and a Spoc. Thank you for teaching this knot that is easy to pop out. I always use rope protectors and Im happy with it. 1,2m protectors with velcro cover everything, you can take them off by pulling it down against the Croll. I dont carry an ascender for transitioning like you did. Your method looks safer, but I use a technique to jam the rope in my feet to be able to stand up and unweight the Croll which I can then remove quickly and easily and sit back on the Grigri. The Croll doesnt require you to remove the carabiner either. To project some moves I use this pre-cross foot technique to stand on the rope and release each device one at a time and gradually slide them down the rope.

I’ve been reluctant to get into TRS for a while but this video has finally convinced me to get after it. Such a great analysis. I will be buying a neck lanyard as a thank you for imparting this knowledge!!

Great video. More like this please. More TRS videos. It's more of a reality these days.

Thanks for putting out this great video! I personally like to use a chest ascender for the top device. I use a short open sling girth hitched to the belay loop and quicklink attaching that to the chest ascender to give further vertical separation, then a homebrew knockoff of the Petzl Torse to keep it high and upright. I can't accidentally drop it. Its easy to pop it on and off one handed. I usually use a Roll n Lock or Microtraxion for the bottom device. With the vertical separation its pretty smooth to pop the GriGri on below everything, take off the Roll n Lock or Microtraxion, take up slack and hang on the GriGri, then pop the rope out of the chest ascender... I have been trying out the Camp Turbochest recently but can't really notice much of a difference over the Petzl Croll S that I was using before. I just got a Taz Lov 3 so I'll be playing around with using it as the 2nd device... it is kinda huge and heavy. I think that for me, it may not be the savior that many seem to claim it is. Its hard to cover all bases, but when I'm teaching friends how to TR solo, something I put more emphasis on (beyond what you covered very well in the vid) is being ready to get out of a jam. Have some extra gear with you and know how to use it should you drop a device. IE double length sling to make friction hitch + footloop or quick 3:1 MA (or other) system, know how to build and use a carabiner brake to rappel or a rap on a munter hitch if you drop your GriGri, practice transitioning to ascending and descending if you find yourself completely free hanging, know what to do if you are free hanging and drop your foot loop, etc... TR solo with friends is tons of fun. Very little down time with belaying. Easy to get a lot of pitches. Very fun to do variations of a pitch climbing more to the left or right than you would usually be constrained due to bolt placement or availability of gear, etc...

Really great video, one of your best. Beginner climber here, intrigued by TRS and LRS. You broke it down really simply here, no assumptions or gatekeeping, and really appreciate the serious approach to safety.

Excellent video, you literally hit all the topics I was hoping you would. In addition to your TRS gear guide on your website, this content is invaluable. Thank you 🙌 Also that was an impressive burn on city park!!

Great video, very constructive and helpful. Better than a Netflix series. Thx for the tips and explanations on things to watch for. You guys rock, keep it up!

As someone who almost only does TRS. The Taz Lov is worth it, no question. Always have an ascender on you for self rescue or just when your two devices get jammed together and you need to unweight them. I honestly prefer two slings in X on my chest to a neck bungee, so you can lean back on the capture device when resting. And finally to avoid feeling the weight that you've added to the bottom, set it on the ground, don't hang it way up high. It'll lift up and pull through if it needs to, and only as much as it needs to. Protip, a scuba weight in a harness bag works great. Nice vid. Would like to see more of the Sterling 10mm Safety Pro breaking at some point. Curious how strong that nylon core it has is.

Clip stick aid climbing is the way to go if you can't rappel from above

I have a dedicated TRS/practice microtrax. I filed off little peg that holds the cam open. I also polished the area so no rough spots, which was probably needless. It's easy to do but obviously after, you physically can't lock it open. I once did have one lock open by pressing firmly on it incidentally (I was using 2! So it only made me poop my pants a little) so I decided to mod it.

Great explanations of not a tutorial. I have done some solo top roping with tree gear. Starting at the top, I repel down and place protection on the rope. At the bottom, I coil excess rope for weight. The main difference in my system is the devices. I climb with a Lov2, Rope Runner, or Hitch Hiker instead of two cams. This allows ascending and descending in one device. I'm excited to see more of this content.

Currently in the mountains learning to climb thanks to you!! Keep crushing legend 🔥

Thanks so much for this video. Reading countless 15 year old forums doesn't really compare to seeing it all!

This is a great video! One setup that's nice with the Grigri is to do a 2 rope TRS - one is a self-feeding progress capture like a Microtraxion, and the other is a Grigri you pull slack through, with less need to tie backup knots than just the Grigri by itself. I climb short routes so I find it more helpful to do setups with an easy transition to descent.

I use a chest harness while soloing.

Amazing video, I've been TRS for 3 years and still learned some a lot!

Thanks Ryan and Brent for the lovely and informative video. I have a couple of questions which I'd love to hear discussed more in-depth: 1- the pros and cons of using a static rope vs dynamic rope 2- using a chest harness (made of a sling and a couple of overhand knots) as a way to attach to the top device instead of the neck lanyard (maybe Big Bungee™ isn't the most biased source on this question 😂) Thanks again

Hell yeah. I've loved learning to top rope solo. It's the most useful climbing related technique I've found that translates to fire service based simple top down rescues. The process of rigging/switching devices/ and weighting and unweighting parts of the system translates really well to pickoff rescues- a skill we are expected to know but seldomly have a chance to practice. Thanks for so clearly and accurately summing up what's taken me 6+ months to learn through friends, the TRS Facebook page, and other means. And I even learned a few new things. ALL FOR FREE. Y'all are seriously the best.

I've been using a Edelrid Diver static rope to TRS using Petals double rope configuration with rescue sender and microtraxion for 2 years. Static ropes are the way to go since they are cheaper and TRS is so hard on the rope. I have slipped off the rock many times and have not suffered any shock on my body. The rope has enough stretch to handle the very minimal distance I drop, which is no more that a couple feet. I suffer way more shock from bouldering gym mats. I was surprised to find out how much stretch a static rope still actually has when I first bought it, I was expected no stretch at all, but of course I wouldn't lead climb on one.

The best video to TRS! Thanx a lot! I wish i‘ve seen it yesrs ago. I forgot once to lock the Micro-Traxion. Its possible to modify it to not being kept open. Great work!!

Great video btw. I might add that the most dangerous part of TRS is making mistakes. You are climbing solo, so nobody to check you. The two situations to most be aware off are: 1. Setting up the anchor (near the edge of the cliff). You might want to attach/rappel from a tree or something to get close to the edge. Mind fall factor two if you think you can clip a sling on the anchor if it is over the edge. 2. Transitions. Double check everything. You can make it less dangerous but more costly with a simpler system like the Taz Lov.

Most people I climb with refer to this as "The Dark Arts". Frankly I've used worse looking systems in extremis for jugging up a rope (pairs of prussiks etc). I've worked a few systems for TRS and they're pretty sound! Sadly availability of myself and people I trust rarely line up. I use a pair of MTraxs and a chest harness with a short bungee cos I don't like putting anything round my neck. Works well for me.

A guy I know TRS's on a grigri with a prussik back up, he ties knots one handed in his rope as he climbs. My worry is at what rate of force does as gri gri explode if his system was to fail and he fell onto a back up knot? Absolutely amazing videos by the way. No more gear fear for me :)

A Micro Traction on sling trailing below Neox is great for quick laps on near vertical terrain, Micro will act as stopper knot if Neox slips. And is also a backup incase total failure of Neox. needs to be on shoulder length sling to stay clear of Neox though. It's my new favorite setup for training because Neox stays attached entire time and not switching devices at top is safer in my opinion. Also I do laps with no rest, so I just remove micro and zip down then put Micro back on and climb. Neox feeds well enough for training laps but obviously adds some friction so not as good for trying limit moves. I used to use GriGri with no backup but it added a lot more friction. With enough rope weight Neox has always locked up but micro backup makes me completely confident. Hang shoes or extra rope at bottom and it will feed well. DON'T USE WITHOUT BACKUP! oh I also purchased all Avant Climbings little do dads and use them all! Thanks Brent for coming up with and making all that cool stuff!

Great to have more info out there for people around TRS. I personally use a TAZ lov2 & CT roll n lock on a static rope. Always found them to be a really great combo, Obviously the TAZ lov2 & lov3 are expensive pieces of gear but with its ease of use and ability to descend id say its well worth the money. The only thing I would add as an issue I had with the roll n lock is with a smaller screwgate carabiner the carabiner itself could spin itself around and the screwgate can jam the roll n lock. Obviously I have a dedicated carabiner for it now which completely solves the issue.

Truly a great video - well made with full explanations and demo - thanks so much! Love the humor and outtakes also (and the end!)

Great video! Rope soloing was how I first got into climbing. "Low and slow" we say in the arborist world with learning new systems and devices.

Great video. Clove hitch rebelay is also feasible. The real challenge on TRS is overhanging routes which Dave Macleod covers making it look far too easy. I'd love to see Brent's suggestions on those.

About the risk of the micro-trax to be disengaged, you mention racking the device. Imh experience, the most likely situation is when you disengage for rappelling while leaving the device on the rope... and then ascend right back, forgetting to re-engage (and re-test) the rope-grab. This has more chances of happenning if you go down with the same device that you use upwards, with a Lov2 for instance (which you haven't tried).

Wow. So good. I've been considering this as getting people to climb outside can so hard.

IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS EPISODE 🙏🙏🙏

Thank you for this video that was perfect for me as I'm looking for ways to be able to practice on my own. You are always great at asking the Qs needed and easy to listen to and understand, the same goes for Brent too! The perfect mix of live demonstrations combined with all that crazy testing makes me a huge fan of your channel. Great work thnx =)

The final video on TRS, thank so much guys 🤩 you really cleared all my doubts. The re-setting anchor to avoid abrasion is genius, as well as the one-hand release knot. So excited for the LRS one, too! 🤩 P.s. MicroTrax and Epoc in the cart waiting for my next paycheck😄

Thanks a lot from Spain. This will keep me happy and safe hahahaha, congrats for the content.

“Why wonder something if you have a drop tower!” LOL. thank you for this video, great work as always !!

This video was such a pleasure to watch, thank you both for your efforts to go into such detail!

Taz lov 3 is the way! Yes it's expensive, but it feeds like a dream and is 50x better for working sections than ascender/grigri/reattaching shenanigans. I wouldn't be caught dead lugging a 10mm rope around for leading but if you're specifically going TRSing a 10mm rope for it is very reasonable. It's actually certified down to 9.5mm for brake assist. I've used it on 9mm (with a microtrax backup) and it has always been fine for me.

Great tip on the slip knot. I've always used a clove hitch and those are bastards to get undone with one hand after they've been weighted.

Excellent video, I learned a lot and liked the integrated pull testing and focus on safety. Thank you!

I had never really considered doing this until I started ice climbing. It’s just that much harder to find buddies to go out into the freezing cold and flog a wall of ice. I seriously started looking into this just this last winter.

Fantastic video, thank you to the whole HN2 and guest!

invaluable knowledge for those interested in learning safely to decie whether to do it, and if yes how to... the failure modes and sheat damage discussion is expecially important and greatly appreciate your testing... i personally want to learn top solo for multipitching (i already do some lead solo on single pitch) as an alternative to jumaring up when cleaning. edit: forgot to mention that the jokes and "Big Bungee" conspiracy stuff was hilarious!

Super thorough video. Awesome! The video seemed to show why not two SPOCs for redundancy. However it didn't show why not two Micro Traxions. Other than having two different devices that *might* fail in different ways, is there a reason to not use two Micro Traxions? Is it simply because it's easier to make certain that the pulley mode is never engaged on one of the devices by using a SPOC in the set? I'm just not sure I buy the argument that having two brands is better for redundancy, if that's all it is...

hey, on a Spoc, you can just untie that little cord from the cam and then tie it back when you need it, no need to severe your device

So much interesting, as a speleologist it seems so fun to use all techniques and instruments which I already use during ascent, I wanna try as soon as possible.

I love TR Solo, i use a Taz Lov. it feeds beautify. It was $300 or something... but the amount of time you save switching from a micro-trax to a gri gri, is substantial... and you can climb warmup routes with way less gear. His weight argument I don't think works, at all. Id rather climb with less stuff and just one, sort of, heavy device. You dont even need a hand ascender if you're that concerned about weight, use a prusik and sling. AND with the taz there is no function that allows it not engage. A rabbit-ear fig 8 also eliminates 2 carabiners if you have mussys.

I appreciate all the tips and tricks I've never known to better manage rope 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽thank you for all you do for the climbing community ❤

Good video. Another benefit of 2 strands is less stretch, which makes dynamic ropes practical, which reduces the fall factor concerns, which makes the annoying neck bungie less important.

fantastic video. Also read "On the Line" (rope solo manual) by Andy Kirkpatrick...

Been using a Unicender for tr soloing for years. I love that thing!

I definitely use a thicker rope for abrasion and it works better with the tas lov 3. I use a taslov because you can repel on it without removing anything, I back it up with a micro traction that I've modified so it can't lock open so I hold I open with my thumb while repelling. The main benefit of the taslov is its easy to go down and up. The downside is the price size and weight.

Great video. A pull test with a petzl shunt would be good to see as it's a progress capture device without any teeth or ridges. Would make a great short to go alongside this.

Was TR soloing and the nylon belt for my chalk bag slid between the micro traxions teeth. Terrifying and stupid of me to not have a back up. Never again

great video, i love the use of a second device as a backup, but i would love to see it above the first device as if it were to cut the rope the "backup" would be cut off below it. nmy thought would be to use a small hollow block, some kind of prusick to ride above the protraction. I have done this myself tho i have no clue if its effective and would love to see some tests

I did alot off TRS some years ago but used a petzl shunt mostly. Work in rope access for a living now as a saftey leader/L3, ther are simalaritys but ropeacces is ALWAYS close to a 10:1 or minimum 5:1 saftey factor.

Excellent video. Very detailed 👌. The demonstration on the 13d ( City Park ? ) was also clearly explained throughout the whole process from the start of the pitch to the end. Well done. 👍👍

That was an awesome video. Can't thank you guys enough for it. Wish I lived closer to the US to buy my stuff from your store

If you use a Vergo it feeds on its own and you can go down without wasting a bunch of time swapping devices then run whatever backup you want underneath. You also can belay normally with a Vergo so it’s not a one trick device.

Really informative. Can't wait for a lead rope solo video!

Thanks for this one Ryan, I do a lot of TRS one thing I really don't like in the setup you showed is if the top device slips it can foul out on the next device down. Here's how I setup Personal lanyard goes to English prusik or Tibloc within reach of an out stretched arm so it don't clock you in the face, manually advanced Any old free sliding device or Tibloc/Altochute to belay loop with minimum slack, even using a mallion instead of a biner with a link to my chest harness to keep this device as high as possible Alternatively I use an English prusik up top, and a french prusik at the belay loop set to the correct amount of tension as a crude auto feeder. With an extra short prusik cord prethreaded into the quick link This is neat because it lets you switch very quickly to prusiking mode with the addition of a stirrup or a 3:1 very quickly without disconnecting anything.

Excellent video!! Thank you 🙏 from England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

Great video, super useful. Would also be very helpful to see some discussion and testing of dynamic versus semi-static ropes for TRS as that is a hot debate. There are several considerations, e.g. abrasion resistance, injury risk from falls (both by falling hard on a static line, and from ground/ledge falls from dynamic rope stretch), and also the ropes feed a bit differently. Would love to see some comparisons.

Great vid but just wondering why no mention of a clove hitch for re-fixing points? I use a spare biner in the knot to make it easy to undo once weighted. Almost but not quite one handable

Fantastic video. This would have saved me a lot of time and second guessing my systems back when I was learning these techniques years ago. I learned from an old Steph Davis blog post which at the time was the only thing I could find on the internet to help me learn. Thanks for making this.

Really well done and informative! Can't wait for the lead rope solo.

Thank you for making such a comprehensive video. It’s awesome ❤

Absolutely great video! I just have some questions about the rope. Should I use a dynamic or static rope for TRS? Both have their advantages and disadvantages. A dynamic rope was used in the video, right?

Thank you! I've read Andy Kirkpatrick´s book on the topic and quite some info, also seen most of Yann Camus videos, but your video still showed answers to questions I had! Thank you very much!

Was about to head out the door to TRS. Thanks for the hold up!

To me nothing beats the Trango Vergo

Very interesting video, probably the most complete and clear. I really like all the safety explanations about rope care with edges and strategies to mitigate the risks, that is gold! I like that you are showing petzl guide to TRS but i would like to emphasize that they insist you use a rope for each device. That is my system since I've started it a year ago but i only TRS way below my limit and don't care the extra weight. Most accidents are because of human error, as you are the only human in the system do you divide or multiple your error factor by two ? 😅 Always triple check and develop a routine like Brent is showing weight it before let go your security... Best guys!

I do it as follows: grigri is the primary. Backup is a prusik, which sits above the grigri. This does require cinching manually, every step, so I use a dynamic rope to mitigate large forces from longer falls.

What pas is Brent using? Looks like the hardware for a connect adjust with different rope. Could you explore using different ropes with the connect adjust hardware in a similar way you explored re-slinging cams?

Make the store available in Europe please and we will buy from you!! Great video

Most informative video on top rope ihave seen yet good work

For how long I've been TRSing and how competent i felt in it, i was a little shocked how much new stuff i learned in this video lol I would have loved to see the TAZ lov tested though - that's by far my favorite device, so much less faff for transitions looking forward to the LRS video!!

Back in my day ... rope solo lead climbing with a grigri backed by a clove hitch . Ahh early 1990's were fun (Edit more clean aid then fee though )

Loved the vid and the gear! Waiting for my lanyard to come now!

Awesome video. I was wondering literally just a few days ago if you had tested the lift before, and voila. And filmed at my home crag as a bonus. Got me psyched to trs city park

This was a fantastic video (and very timely for me, as I just started TRSing). Forgive the newbie flavor of these, but I do have two questions: It looks like you modified your Petzl Connect with a different rope, and this allows you to use with tie in points rather than belay loop. I like this since my belay loop feels crowded, but I wonder if there are any considerations? Also, do you worry about the weighted rope making it difficult when transitioning to the lowering device (for me the gri gri)? My understanding is that an ATC similarly wouldn't work with a weighted rope. Thanks, in advance, for any follow up. Happily ordered my neck lanyard!

I use a Petzl Torse shoulder strap with a Petzl CROLL and back it up with a Micro Traxion. Works pretty good!

Two things, One: I have the CAMP Goblin, how does it measure up? Two: I have a light weight upper body harness by Petzl that clips to most any harness. what is your experience with those?

I often TRS on a Grigri when giving courses, since routes are easy and we need fast transitions. Would have loved if you went a bit deeper on this technique: How much slack is acceptable depending on distance to anchor? When would a Grigri desheathe a rope? is there any sensible way of backing up a Grigri in a one-rope-setting?

Love the video, left me wanting more! What about a pulley minded prusik as a progress capture device?? Could be hard to pull up/auto feed. Off to the basement to try out!

This is the best video on TR solo'ing I have ever seen. What route was he on towards the end?

STELLAR VIDEO!!! I’ve been solo toproping since 1987, my current system uses dual Microtrax rigged in such a way that they cannot collide. The upper device is attached to a half-runner girth hitched to my harness tie-in points using a locking carabiner that is longer than the locking carabiner attached to my belay-loop and lower device. Otherwise I’m on the same page as you guys. Other than the slip knots, I don’t like those:D Almost forgot….I’ve modded both Microtrax so the cam cannot be locked open. It’s pretty easy to do, file off a small metal nub. Tom Michael

I am currently in the investing of equipment to TRS. I ordered a Black diamond Ascender and a Grigri since both was on sale! The initial goal is to have a two rope system to begin with, so my ascender (chest height) can feed freely and grigri as backup which I feed once I have hands free. This might not work good for long climbs, but maybe something to experiment with on practicing short cruxes until I have the money to by a microtrax!