On a liberty boat I was only 50 or so yards from our aircraft carrier in heavy fog. It disappeared. I will never forget how weird that was. The ship just blended into the fog.
The way I heard the Missouri story was that her captain was pretty sneaky. He detached his escorts as a sacrificial decoy then went EMCON and slipped into the shipping channels, using deceptive lighting to mimic the profile of a civilian ship. The carrier battlegroup and attached P-3s couldn't find the battleship in the crowded shipping lanes. The next morning, Missouri shows up in gun range of the carrier battlegroup and announces that they've sunk every ship. The exercise was reset and Missouri was sunk.
During the mid / late 1970s during a major Pacific Fleet exercise the carriers Kitty Hawk, Enterprise and Midway with their battlegroups were operating in the Northern Pacific within strike range of the Soviet Kamchatka Penninsula and its airbases. The weather was typical for that time of year in those waters (foggy crap) so the Soviets were tracking all three carrier groups by their electronic emissions. Midway and her group split off from the other two, ducked into a band of particularly sucky weather and went total emcon and just vanished. The Soviet Air Force had been running periodic patrols to both train against our guys and keep track of the three carriers. "Okay Boris, we have locations on the imperialist Yankee carriers ... there is Kitty Hawk ... we see Enterprise ... uh ... Midway ... uh" "Ivan, do you have a lock on that old piece of Borsht Midway?" "Ivan?" "... uh ... Boris ... we cannot locate the third carrier." The Soviets went absolutely bug nuts trying to locate the Midway battle group using every flyable plane with every airborne sensor they could. Their "Red Banner Pacific Fleet" sailed to join the search for the oldest and LEAST CAPABLE nuclear armed carrier in the USN. Midway stayed hidden for over 24 hours while her electronic intel guys and those in the rest of the group gathered data on Soviet systems that hadn't been well recorded before and used their own passive sensors (electronic warfare suites) to manage to steer clear of detection range. As New Jersey, Missouri and Iowa proved in exercises "Enemy" capital ships are something you don't want to lose track of. Iowa pulled off a maneuver against the John F Kennedy battle group very similar to the one Ryan talks about with Missouri sneaking up on her prey. Pea soup fog is such a lovely medium to hide in. 😉
The best part of that story? The captain of the Midway did that, partly to gather info, but also because he’d heard that the Russians had essentially written off the Midway as obsolete.
@@stevenglorieux9066 Not only the ship's Captain but also the Battlegroup Commander (Rear Admiral, Midway was his flagship) with the Admirals commanding the Kitty Hawk and Enterprise groups PLUS Commander 7th Fleet being in on the joke. My understanding is that the idea originated with the Electronic Warfare Officer of one of the ships in the group and he bounced the idea up the chain of command. Eventually the entire Pacific Fleet and shore support (communications and electronic intel) joined in. What started as a "Mess with the Soviets" idea grew into an intelligence bonanza. And the undeniable fact was, as old as Midway was, she was a force that the Soviets couldn't afford to ignore or lose track of even for a day. She had what was probably THE most efficient flight deck team in the entire Navy in those days. With only two catapults vs four on the larger carriers she was able to manage a sortie rate (launch and recovery) better than the bigger ships like Enterprise. They called it "Midway Magic." During Desert Storm, Midway was one of the six carriers maintaining an incredible operation tempo. Halfway through the air war the non-skid coating on her flightdeck simply wore out and it looked like she would need to withdraw for nearly 2 weeks in a shipyard to get the deck renewed. "Midway Magic." As it was told to me, she and her crew did what was considered impossible prior to that. She pulled back for 48 to 72 hours, flew most of her aircraft off to shore fields and did the job herself, at sea and then rejoined the fight after recalling her planes. To me, it is no wonder that this grand old lady has been preserved as a museum ship.
i was always fascinated with the story of the "razzle dazzle" camo pattern for ships. There is an open source face identification system called OpenCV, and there is a makeup camouflage system called "CV Dazzle" designed to defeat OpenCV. CV Dazzle is extremely effective, and its the reason why you have to move your bangs around and remove your glasses when you get your picture taken for a federal ID in the US. All states have to comply with the new federal standard, which includes making people remove any kind of razzle dazzle camo pattern from their heads. It's an interesting bit of WWII info that came up during my research in school haha When i asked my gramps about ship camo when he was in the navy in the 50's, he just laughed and said "if the ships can see each other, one of them is probably already dead"
Please give us a picture of the New Jersey in the fog in Hi-Def like the title card. it's So ominous and beautiful, without the city/dock if possible as if it is in open water it looks amazing!
You are correct in your description of electronic surveillance measures (ESM) allowing for detection of ships. I worked as an ESM operator on submarines as the ship's EW petty officer. You can do so much with ESM beyond detecting ships, but also listen on unencrypted radio communications (including cellphone and music radio), find downed pilots, and learn if you've been detected (change in frequency and/or pulse repetition). With exact numbers it's even possible to tell exactly which unit (i.e., USS Bunker Hill) is emitting the radar since each unit, despite similarity to others, has a fingerprint.
We were doing SpecOps off of Vladivostok (mid 80's). We were just off the territorial limit at night when the Soviets sent a tug to see if we needed assistance into the harbour (they thought we were a Russian ship either military or civilian). One of our SpecOp guys started talking to the tug in Russian, but I guess they didn't like our answers so they finally figured what was up and took off.
The Soviets and today's Russians were and are so much fun to play with! Contrary to popular opinion, Russians have a sense of humor too, they just don't display it when Senior Officers are around.
@@robertf3479 The Russians actually pride themselves on their sense of humor. They say that well in most places the internet is for porn in Russia the internet is for jokes. But also some jokes will land you in jail even if the judge is laughing well sentencing you.
I was Marine Det during RIMPAC , it was cool. Missouri 30 knots swing 16 inches from ship to ship.. I wish they had phone cameras back then. It was AWESOME being on a battleship
@@FireStormOOO_ Except among people who were aware of the implications of HMS _Dreadnought._ To them the effect was more like, "Hey! Check out our huge, obsolete navy!" :)
@@ZGryphon A huge navy counters a single ship somewhat simply by scattering and going everywhere that ship isn't, so it wasn't entirely obsolete yet. But the intimidation effect *IS* greatly diminished if you know that the whole fleet would lose a fight against one more modern ship, yes.
@@ZGryphon "Look how many battleships we built! Really want to bet we can't build more?" Would it even be diplomacy if there weren't 2 or 3 valid takes on everything?
While a part of Anti-Submarine Squadron 24 on a Med Cruise in 1967, we would practice Emcon (Emissions Control) situations where the USS Randolph would turn off all electronic emissions and the aircraft would as well. We had a specific geographic point to be at for our recovery, and once the ship was not there. The flight climbed up to 10,000 feet (all the better to see long distance) and with binoculars we found her and recovered . We did have emergency procedures in place in case we got too low on fuel that we could call the Randolph and they would turn on the locator electronics.
New Jersey really is a splendid lady. She can float, and she can fight. I can’t say I WANT to see a future where 100 year old battleships like her are needed, but the more I learn about her the clearer it gets that she’s still formidable even after all of this time. Update her electronics, spruce up her engines, and get her guns up and running again, and she’d be death on the water for just about anything within gun range of a coastline.
@AnldiotsLantern I know there are many USMC & US ARMY grunts who sure appreciated her 20 mile range off the coast of Vietnam! There is something magical about a 2,000 pound explosive dropping out of the sky and all you hear is a shwosh overhead!
OR, we could have just did what the Brits did with the HMS Marshal Ney and similar vessels instead of wasting time and our money on the Zumwalt-Class and LCS. Build a gun and put it on something that floats. Make that gun common. Build on the class later.
@@donalddodson7365 and the Viet Cong didn’t even have a Navy. We haven’t really fought ship to ship battles since WWII. Remember the two missiles that sunk the Moscova? New Jersey (probably) would’ve shrugged those off like paintballs. They literally don’t make armor like hers anymore because with the nuclear age it was assumed it was obsolete. But you only get so far just threatening to end the world. There’s no such thing as a tactical nuke. Russia’s Black Sea fleet has fled back to Crimea cuz their biggest boat is now the Snake Island Memorial Reef, which should tell you something about their faith in their ability to take a hit.
As I was told in the Navy, a major reason Haze Grey was chosen over other colors was cost, it's low pigment levels makes it the cheapest paint the Navy could get in bulk.
@@TheSteelArmadillo Depends on the pigments. Most don't increase the cost by much, but the shear volume being used means even a small price increase adds up to a lot of money.
The bit with the vintage video and Ryan explaining the same topic at once was like educational hard mode. Hardcore mode was when the vintage video was chipmunked, on top of Ryan's spewing ..
@@ranekeisenkralle8265 that whole segment felt like an "are you still watching?" test with how Ryan's wisdom was gradually slowing down, and the audio from the vintage recording going 4X speed out of nowhere. That was the audio equivalent of eye-crossing
Yeah it was REALLY foggy that morning. Glad to see it wasn't just in Freehold. I'd hate to be Ryan, coming across the Ben Franklin, and looking to see if USS NJ is still there. It's not, and he says "oh my god, where's my battleship?!"
Actually there was another change in color scheme for surface ships. Prior to the early 1990's the top two feet or so of each stack was painted black. All the other structures of the ship, primarily masts with radars and antennas, were also painted black above this level. This applied to conventionally powered surface ships. The nuclear ships (CGN, CVN) had their masts painted gray right up to the top. I suspect the change to all gray might have had several reasons: All ships would match, black paint would make the electronic items up there hotter, and then there is cost/time involved of two paint colors. R. Rose PNC(SW), USN (Retired)
If it were left up to me, I'd have stuck with Measure 22 for our camouflage. It's effective against visual observation by the human eye, and adding colors to the paint scheme doesn't add to radar signature at all, so why not? Not to mention (and I stress that this is the most important reason), it's just really cool to look at.
One of the stunts that I heard was pulled during the Cold War was occasionally sticking random fake antennas on some ships for the Soviets to see and wonder about. 🙂 As to the effectiveness of haze gray, there I was standing watch as OOD (Underway) on my ship in the Persian Gulf shortly after Saddam Hussein had set the oil fields in Kuwait ablaze. The smoke that was generated was both legendary, and to a certain extent breath taking. One of the effects was that on an otherwise clear and sunny day I had trouble making out an aircraft carrier at roughly 4 miles away. Somewhat nerve wracking when the carrier is maneuvering and her bow is (thank God temporarily) facing you.
As I remember, mind you I may be wrong I was only working the engine room during RimPac 89’, I will check my westpac book later. It was NJ who not just one morning, but two mornings set deceptive lighting, emcon and snuck up on Missouri first morning, Carrier second morning.
I thought that this was excellent videography of New Jersey, made her look spooky, like she was coming silently out of the mist, hunting.....makes one wonder....how fearful to an enemy that sight would be, sailing quietly out of the fog like that.
Modern pleasure craft have radars, too. I've seen radars on a 16' open sport fisher with outboard. I am concerned about radars interfering with each other. Fish finders can be hand-held--and they're advanced sonar systems. It's getting harder to hide. Riverine patrol boats were painted green or in a green camouflage pattern. I like gray.
I really wish Battleship North Carolina had a miniature Ryan to do videos about that ships history. I’ve been twice and still feel like I keep missing so much. But Ryan’s awesome videos about general ship knowledge has helped alot! Thank you for these nonstop awesome videos
Ryan, love your content. I appreciate your dedication to the preservation of these historical artifacts. As a young boy in the boy scouts I had the fun of spending the night on the uss Alabama. Very memorable experience..especially playing hide and go seek. Lol. Keep up the good work. Look forward to all your videos.
The two colors that come to my mind are dependant on the use of the ship in question. One would be Musou Black / Vantablack - because visual resolution and contrast are for suckers and the other would be ultra-reflective-pigment - because even though radar may tell you we are here, you still can't stand looking at us because both you and your equipment get blinded by excessive glare, have fun!
As a former infantry soldier I have my own opinions about camouflage. If you're close enough to be seen, especially if you move, it doesn't really matter. It just comes down to looking cool, and that's important for morale.
Can you imagine that in WWI, you could come within one mile of an enemy battleship, and not see her. Just imagine two Battleships opening fire on each other, from a range of one mile. How much shell drop would there be at that range?
That actually happened in WWII - Read "Neptune's Inferno" by James Hornfischer- US and Japanese navy close to point blank range at night near Guadalcanal
"Here, you can sorta see the ship's outline" pictured: Clear picture where you can not only see the ship in great detail, but you can clearly see its reflection in the water. I think someone got the wrong picture. - haha
Just gonna politely ask that in the future y'all _not_ have Ryan and a vintage instructional video talking at the same time, please. It was borderline impossible to follow that section of the video.
It was something about being able to detect different types of radar used by different types of ships and roughly identify them without line of sight based on that, but yeah that was hard to listen to.
Reminded me of being trained in Vietnam to call in artillery and later in our EMS Dispatch centers: 3 or 4 radios squawking at the same time. Good brain training. 🤯🙉
Sure you can use paint to blend in. Or you can pull a British Surprise. Point at the sky and say "look at all these planes" then sneak a Revenge class in and lay waste to the town
I would love for a navy to go full "who gives a damn" and do what (I think) Drach joked about and paint one of their ships bright pink, because radar doesn't care what colour a ship is painted. Also, I love the idea that New Jersey decided that being 45,000 tons doesn't mean she can't also be a stealth battleship and goes playing Peak-a-Boo with the Soviets for a giggle.
In WW2 the Long Range Desert Group painted their vehicles a pale pink color, apparently during dawn and dusk attacks made their vehicles almost invisible to enemy optical systems
@@glenchapman3899 The Royal Navy also had a light pink called "Mountbatten Pink" that had the same effect, problem with it is that a ship was more visible during the main hours of daylight.
@@deaks25 Thank you I just looked that up and it lead me to the story of HMS Kenya lol. Interesting it appears Mountbatten's observations are what lead to desert units using the same color.
USS _Sea Tiger_ was accidentally painted pink in early 1942 and operated that way for some time. The results were mixed at best, since the rest of the US Navy didn't get the memo and thought it was some kind of weird Japanese secret weapon, and the only thing _Sea Tiger_ managed to sink during that time was a truck.
Speaking of hiding battleships, what about smokescreens? I've heard of them being used in some British naval battles. I'd like to know a bit about the when, why and how. Is there any remaining evidence of smoke generators on New Jersey?
True. But as a former operations specialist, I've a pretty clear idea how a sea-skimming missile, in fog/drizzling rain and a little wave action, confused and doomed Moskva. So easy
Um, Navy ships and submarine often run without RADAR or SONAR to hide their exact position. Its a lot easier to find a ship if they are sending up the equivalant of a signal flare.
@@kennethng8346 I like the old "flashlight in a dark room" analogy for active sensors. You can see what's in the path of the beam, but _everyone_ can see where _you_ are.
@@ZGryphon Could be worse. I cringe every time I see a gun hunt/fight scene where one side is using laser sights in a smokey room so can you see exactly where the shooter is and what he is aiming at.,
@@kennethng8346 Submarines ONLY listen. Surface ships are noisy as hell just because of the bow wave and powerplant noise, so they can radiate everything all the time because the hunter-killer boats have them in their sights anyway, the anecdotes about the BBs sneaking up on the enemy are ... sanitized. I'm sure in both cases submarines had firing solutions on both the entire time, nobody just ever admitted submarines were in the area because it'd give away too much info about their capabilities. So the Russians said "Da, you totally got us with that one, comrades!" and the USN's public statement about their wargame was similarly "Yeah... we had no idea ..." while both had submarines that could easily have killed the BB at any time. OTOH, the only way you'll know a modern submarine is around is when their weapon goes into active final-approach homing, and by that time the boat itself has cut the guidance wires that they used to drive it close to your noisy surface ship, gone deep, and is running like hell, and the torpedo is too close for you to avoid. Playing the submarine sim Cold Waters, a weapon going active is basically a horror movie soundtrack (see Jaws). "Ping ... ping ... ping ... ping. ping. ping. ping ping ping pingpingpingpingPINGPINGPINGPINGBOOM"
Usually skip ads, now here I am, with the ranks of yourself. lol. Thanks, really liked this video. Makes me wonder, how long it takes a Battleship to go from Full Ahead to Full Astern.
"From the mist, a shape, a ship is taking form, and the silence of the seas about to drift into a storm. Sight of power, show of force, raise the anchor battleships plotting its course." Yes I just quoted a Sabaton song about the Bismarck for new jersey instead. Fucking deal with it.
You think they would rethink based on satellite since radar is only good close to target, satellite finds targets anywhere. It would probably be hard given the ships wake.
There are still large gaps in satellite coverage and everyone pretty much knows when surveillance satellites are overhead. There are ways to hide from or deceive the satellites.
Other large objects that hide in the oceans are whales and giant squid. Blue, gray, black/white, and a variety of colors might work. Follow the examples already in the sea.
"How to hide a battleship..." Easy peasy Britain: "Look over there!" Germans: "Huh?" Britain: *Moves HMS Revenge across the channel* HMS Revenge: "Fire in the hole!"
At time 13:20, what would a BB's shells do to ships that lack armor at that range? Would they simply fly straight through a surface combatant of that era, or would they have time to detonate inside as designed?
@@ilenastarbreeze4978 So, uh-oh, time to back haul the tubes and reload for thin plate ships? I can't think they would take that time. So the first salvo would literally be a hit or miss with fuse timing and then they would get it right..?
Yeah I'm with clever username with a certain part of the video. It was making it hard to understand what Ryan was saying along with the instructional video going on at the same time.
Which 1 good example is the collision between the King George V Class Fast Battleship, HMS King George V and the Tribal Class Destroyer HMS Punjabi on May 1st 1942
I've seen photos and models of ships painted in wild black & white patterns. Similarly land vehicles are painted in wild green and brown patterns. In my observations, you *will* see this, but it makes such a strange outline it's hard to tell what you're seeing. Is this used anymore?
No Radar put paid to that. The idea of dazzle was not so much to make it hard to identify what you are looking at but to fool the range finders. Which direction is the ship going. What angle is it to your own vessel. All vital questions for optical targeting.
