How Does Patchbay Normalling Work? With Examples 

agree!

same here!

Agree!!

Agreed

Finally I get it ! Well explained. My head no longer hurts :)

Yep, you're right; thru and non-normalled refer to the same thing. The connections are wired straight thru, front panel to back, without using the normalling switches on the jacks. The initial setup can be daunting due to the sheer number of options available, but once you settle on something it really does improve the workflow. Much less energy needs to be spent changing signal routing around.

@@TeDubbs - Excellent. Thank you. Just about to have another go at deciding how to route everything with my new patchbay. You’re right, deciding how I want it by default is the trickiest part. However, I will be able to change it if something isn’t working for me. So handy and I can’t believe I didn’t think of doing this earlier.

The input impedence when running two or more pieces of gear in parallel will be lowered, but input impedence of these devices is normally so high it doesn't present an issue. As long as you aren't splitting the signal 10+ times, you should be just fine. Do note that you shouldn't be be splitting the raw mic signal, only the line level signal post-preamp. Mic and instrument levels are so low to begin with that splitting them isn't a great idea.

@@TeDubbs Thanks!

The Comp 1 IN & OUT may look like 2 separate units in the animation, but in reality they are the input and output of the same compressor. The INs and OUTs represent a cable connecting the IN or OUT of the outboard gear to the back of the patchbay at that location. Where you see an IN in the animation, that signal is being passed into the compressor. The compressor processes the signal, which is returned to wherever the OUT is plugged into the back of the patchbay, which could be anywhere. There is nothing special about where each piece of gear is plugged into the bay. In these examples, the signal generally flows left to right, but it could just as simply flow right to left, or zig zag back and forth depending on where each piece of gear was connected. The patchbay only controls connections between vertical pairs of INs and OUTs. There are no internal connections made between adjacent columns. Hopefully that helps.

@@TeDubbs I think I’m 90% there, I’m sure when my PB shows up I’ll botch something getting confused at least once or twice but I got a diagram drawn out so hopefully I’ll get it right haha. I have a pretty simple chain for now so should be good, thanks again for this it wound everything down in a much more concise way 👍🏼👊🏼

That's a great question. Electrically speaking, TRS and XLR are identical. They both have 3 conductors (wires), and so can both carry the same signals, including phantom power. However, because on TRS connectors, all contacts are axially aligned, the possibility exists for a short circuit when plugging or unplugging the connector. This isn't a problem on XLR because each conductor gets its own pin, and there is no possibility of plugging a pin into the wrong socket or bridging two sockets with the same pin. Phantom power should be off when plugging or unplugging any connected gear, which means this wouldn't be a problem in a perfect world. But since we aren't perfect and sometimes forget to turn off the phantom power, it's best to only use XLR cables to transmit.

@@TeDubbs thanks for the quick response, you’re awesome! yeah, that’s how I imagine it too… so the patchbay itself isn’t the problem, but rather the danger or messing up when patching things in the front of the patchbay with phantom power on, right? In that case it’s probably okay to have a bunch of XLR to TRS cables (XLR end for the mics, TRS for the back of the patchbay) conected at all times for easier routing so long as one doesn’t change the signal path on the front of the patchbay whilst having 48V engaged? Or would you just recommend an XLR patchbay and how would you incorporate that in conjunction with a TRS one for the rest of the line level gear patching? Cheers!

As you said, there is no electrical difference between a TRS and an XLR cable, just different connectors. If the gear outputs a different signal depending on which output is used, you would want to be aware of that - I wouldn't be shocked if there were cases where that was true. Some outboard gear can select between -10 dBV & +4 dBu input & output levels, so maybe something similar could apply depending on which output is used. Nothing wrong with using an adapter to route XLR through a TRS bay, but be careful with phantom power. The standard rules apply - make sure power is only turned on after everything is patched and turned off before anything is unplugged.

@@TeDubbs great thank you so much! I actually just received the ART 48 1/4 patch bay and its great for my outboard gear. only problem is I wish it actually had a pure non normaled option. wanted to run some guitar pedals on the right side of the unit just for easy access, but if nothing is plugged into the front of unit, the ART defaults to the "waterfall" regardless of normal or half normal, and I dont want that with pedals, seems like a mess. I wouldn't be able to use top and bottom columns together. guess ill have to purchase some straight through non normal 1/4 connector boxes for that right? unless you have anther thought for the guitar pedals. Thanks so much man.

@Robert Wilson yeah thanks man, I did indeed go that way. were all set up and rocking. great patchbay, love this thing.

There is nothing preventing phantom power from passing through TRS cables. Whether or not it's a good idea is a separate debate, but it will work just fine. Both XLR and TRS have 3 conductors, and electrically speaking they are identical.

I can produce $100+ worth of TRS to XLR cables that won't pass 48 volt and the manufacturer said that they do not let it pass through.

@@TheHithirteen Like I said, they are electrically identical, only difference being connectors. There are dangers associated with plugging and unplugging TRS cables which have phantom power turned on, due to the connector creating a short circuit when not fully plugged in. (This is why XLR has 3 separate pins). These dangers are likely why manufactures say it will not pass phantom - they don't want to be liable for broken equipment. Just to be clear, passing phantom through TRS is not standard practice nor is it recommended, but it will work. I have done it.

Yes you can think of it like that. The outputs vs inputs do get a bit confusing, but it sounds like you have it right. The 'outs' on the front panel have something plugged in to them on the back. The 'ins' on the front have a cable run from the back to the input of something else.

I have thought about this myself a lot actually. The interfaces with combo jacks process the signal the same regardless of weather TRS or XLR is plugged in, so you could get identical behavior by, for example, always using TRS, and plugging microphones in via an XLR to TRS adapter. The issue with doing that or your idea is phantom power. It's never a good idea to run phantom through TRS, even though it would technically work. (This isnt only because phantom isnt expected over TRS, but also due to the fact that you can short circuit phantom power when plugging or unplugging a TRS connector - there is a good reason why XLR is 3 separate pins) I think the best way to go is to divide up your inputs based on what you for see yourself needing. If you mic everything, only leave one or two TRS inputs accessible on the front of your patchbay. If you're recording 5 synths at a time direct in, then you probably want most of your inputs to be TRS and only a leave a few XLR.

You can, but the level entering the compressor will be very low. Microphones use preamps to boost the very low microphone level output to line level before further processing, as outboard gear is generally designed to operate at the higher line level. That being said, I have used a mic going directly into compressor in a pinch to act as a preamp just to get the mic level signal up to something loud enough to be heard through a PA system.

Or can the phantom power pass through my patched compressors/preamps with phantom power engaged?

That's a good question. The mic preamp would be providing the phantom power, and there is nothing stopping you from running that phantom power through the patchbay to the mic. There is a lot of debate about whether or not this is a good idea, and in my opinion, it really isn't. In practice you would probably just plug the mic directly into the preamp. (Rather than patched in through the bay)

@@TeDubbs gotcha. I suppose in that scenario, I could get an xlr patch bay that connects to my preamp xlr inputs to quickly patch in mics? In that case, i’d still be able to keep the trs connections to the preamps, and patch in a mic when needed. Does that sound right?

@@BackWhenFM Yeah, that will work. Its how I would handle it if I didn't have easy access to the inputs of the preamp.

Yes, it could be. It would be XLR to 1/4 TRS or a smaller TT (Bantam) connector depending on what style patchbay we're talking about. In either of these cases the XLR signal would remain balanced. It could also be that the output of a microphone is exposed on the patchbay, I.E. from a snake, or input located in another room, etc. This is how my patchbay is set up and was what I based this video on.

@@TeDubbs Oh I see. Thanks so much! Your video does an awesome job at explaining patchbays. I have seen too many patchaby videos only to be left unsure of connections.

Your mic would typically be connected through a preamp, which would accept an XLR input and offer phantom power. Its output would be hooked into the patchbay.

Thanks@@TeDubbs would you be able to run a mic that has a power supply directly into the patchbay? Like say a warm audio

Because the rear is literally a mirror of the front. Outputs cables from your equipment go up top. Inputs on bottom. The front jacks are just a mirror. Google image this and you’ll see.