Honestly Hayden being human at first and becoming a robot to cheat death is infinitely more cool to me then him being a generic angel. Like him and the seraphim should of been completely separate.
@@EnhancedNightmareI believe it was said somewhere that he placed his soul into braindead human body. And when it developed Cancer he went with the robo body
Yeah, would've been cooler if they just did something like... he had a near-death experience and his mechanical frame was modeled after the seeraphim... of which there are several, as Part Two showed us... which makes him even less special now.
I really hate how sam was treated in eternal he is literally just living wikipedia and thats it, also i've noticed that they straight up changed his lore, in the codex of 2016 its says he was some guy who had cancer and put his brain in a robot suit to live on or something i forgot, now hes big angel man, wish they kept samual as samual and the seraphim as the seraphim
They didnt change it. He was always the Seraphim but in a cloned human body. That then got cancer and turned into a 3 meter tall robot. He was supposed to guide humanity through their discovery of Argent Energy, cuz the father told him to.
@@tmantman993 correct, and the reason he allowed all of that to happen was because his human body (and by extension the piece of his brain that runs the cybernetic body) is susceptible to demonic corruption
I know this video is kinda old, but you misunderstood many things, Hayden/Samur didn't provoke Hell's invasion on earth and if he was extracting energy from Mars wasn't because he wanted more money, he isn't even the owner of the whole UAC, he did it because he knew that the earth needs the energy for their survival, and it was Olivia the one who was willing to sacrifice all the UAC personnel for her own gain causing the events of 2016 and she would have been successful if he hasn't spent so much time preparing for this scenario. He might not have humanity's best interest in mind since it was all part of a bigger conspiracy, but ultimately, I can't see his course of action as morally wrong or unjustified giving the context.
No dude, he still was ok on using argent energy on Doom 2016, which means he doesn't care about the "tortured souls in hell" or whatever. So he was not as bad as Olivia but he his morale is still questionable at best. Btw, Doom Eternal lore is just a mess. All they did was retcon the entire story.
@@rodrigoalves-cg6xv I don't think that's a fair criticism, Argent Energy was produced with and without Earth extracting from the Argent Fracture. Samuel Hayden was tasked by the father to guide humanity in the discovery of Argent Energy and protect them from the hell invasion because no one was capable of defeating hell. Earth was enduring a devastating energy crisis, as morally incorrect as it is to use the souls, they weren't the ones killing innocents to produce it, it was the demons. Even without Hayden, the UAC will go their way to extract and experiment with Argent, Samuel being there was the best outcome, specially considering that without him the Slayer would still be in the Sarcophagus, because the UAC would be corrupted or will not have interest in a random tombstone.
@@rodrigoalves-cg6xv not everything in the story is a mess. Plus it's not really that complex. Also a lot of it is left up to interpretation. So truthfully it's not a big deal. But it can be confusing if your not actually sorting through the lore.
I remember being VERY exited to see Hayden in Eternal. Is he happy VEGA survived? Is he regretful that his Argent search led to Earth’s invasion? But we get no emotion or arc at all. He’s just VEGA 2.
Samuel tries to save humanity from economic collapse and doesn't see demons as a threat. One can't kill porverty and hunger. Doomguy tries to save humanity from demons and doesn't see energy crisis as a threat. One can live in poverty and hunger
The way I see it is: The Slayer doesn't see eye to eye with Samuel's vision because his plan involves Hell. Argent Energy being beneficial or not to humanity isn't the point; it being tied to Hell is more than enough reason for the Slayer to completely disagree with Samuel Hayden's plans, no matter how altruistic they may seem. Furthermore, Argent Energy requires mortal souls and the Wraith's essence (Sentinel Energy) to be created. So I'm theorizing that during his time with the Sentinels he would've known or found out about the twisted process behind it. But we'll see in the upcoming Dark Ages game.
Everytime someone says the story in Eternal doesn't matter, all I can think about is the unskippable dialogue Samuel has just talking about fun facts about Hell for TWO MISSIONS
Simple explanation of Hayden's skipped redemption arc: Hayden isn't actually doing this out of the good of his own heart. He is just attempting to appeal to those perceiving him as good.
Hugo confirmed he's actually not a bad guy, but the guy with a really big ego. He actually believed he's better than both Father and Davoth in terms of the management and whatnot but failed miserably and didn't accept it
I don't even think Eternal gets the gameplay right. There's a few things it innovates well on, like the dash. But then they nerfed melee only to replace it with that that weird mechanic. Glory kills got less brutal with the inclusion of the arm blade. The platforming puzzles added nothing meaningful to the game (bet everyone forgot those were in the game). And the sandbox got notably more one note, with some weapons basically becoming objectively the best weapons to use against certain enemies (i.e. why would you ever not use a shotgun grenade on a cacodemon?)
@@PANCAKEMINEZZ using the shotgun to kill a cacodemon is like the 10th most efficient way to kill it. How much have you actually played eternal? it has one of the most complex combat loops ever created. Bloodpunch is much more well incorporated than a generic melee, you can use it to do a bunch of damage to doom hunter and cyber mancubus and any other demon and you can also use it to kill a bunch of fodder and get shield or health. Also when you get upgrades you can charge it with shield and health if you avoid taking damage and you can use it way more often. It is very good at faltering as well, it completely stops any demon hit by it. This is just one tool In DOOM slayers arsenal I can write even more about, every tool is like this, the combat loop is so deep it took me years to perfect my playstyle to what it is now. DOOM 2016s gameplay feels way more experimental, its a bridge between wolfenstein and DOOM Eternal.
I liked 2016’s gameplay before I played eternal, but now eternal’s nosecandy gameplay spoiled me and I can no longer appreciate 2016’s gameplay, only its superior story and atmosphere
I genuinely dont think hayden wants to make money I mean he is basically the most powerfull person on the entire solar system and the CEO of the biggest company to have ever existed yet his actions never screamed "i put profit first" Like he says in the end of 2016 "i have no choice without argent it WILL be worse" I think he genuinely wants to save humanity from itself even if his vision for how to do it is miss guided
I was so bummed out that literally nothing in 2016 played into Samuel's boss battle. Not even a simple throw-away line like "You've had this coming for a long time now." or... SOMETHING! They're fighting to the death and their history is a complete non-factor! AUGH!!!
Samuel should be a hybrid between the human Hayden and Samur. Samuel should be a separate person who linked in a collective conscious with Samur Maykr.
My headcanon is that Hayden lost his memories and did all what he did out of instinct, but began to recover his past memories after his robotic body was destroyed, which explains his change on personality as he himself realized he was not a human.
Eternal should have ended with the crucible absorbing the dead icon of sin's power and then Hayden steals it and you fight him as the final boss. He basically has no free will in Eternal and only follows the Slayer's orders. It would've been a great twist ending for Hayden to have just been pretending he couldn't act during most of the story. Also Hayden is not an angel and it was a horrible retcon.
I think Samuel hating what he was obsessed with before was because he failed to stop hell on earth and ended up dying. When they recovered his body, they couldn't repair him much because they're limited in technology. When he was reconnected to the Slayer ship, which is alien technology. Everything he knew in his past life was restored.
They should have just made him Satan acting as a false savior during humanity's energy crisis. He was ultimately the reason demons wrecked humanity. Samuel Hayden S. Hayden Satan
When I was on the last bit of Eternal I fully expected Samuel to hijack my ship for his own nefarious purposes because he had been set up as so untrustworthy. But nope, he's chill with just being VEGA 2.0
To me Hayden is someone who’s goals align with the Doom Slayer but uses simpler methods when it suits him regardless of consequences that don’t affect him directly. When he has the argent spewing crucible on earth he will say what he really thinks about the process that makes it. When he spews out exposition left and right and then says that taking the crucible blade will awaken the titan it means “take the damn sword and let the thing do what it wants” since he gives no alternatives. He only brings back the Slayer in 2016 when things have get out of hand. Hayden to me only has issues with the Slayer because of their difference in methods. I wish they brought him back in the second dlc to help you after seeing an enlightened Vega agreeing with your methods.
9:35 I actually liked that part, Slayer doesn't hold a grudge, he doesn't care about what happened between them, he just cares about killing more demons and Hayden knows that he doesn't give a shit so he just tells him what he wants to know, no sorry, no nothing and that just gave me straight DOOM vibes - you aren't here to make history, you are here to kill demons.
It would have worked if they said in Eternal that his human body did in fact have cancer even though his true form is an angel so he had to swap to the robot one
Hahaha this video sums up my issues with the DOOM Fortress, like iD thought i would actually be more interested in reading about how he got the Fortress then actually liberating the Fortress for myself. DOOM Eternals story would be so much better if it just picked up where 2016 left off and the first 3rd was getting the Fortress and off Mars, the second 3rd was fighting Hell on Earth and last 3rd was in Hell getting trhe Sword to take down the Icon of Sin. Its simpler, more straight forward and you don't lose a single heavy metal moment other then really weird and out of place fantasy settings that feel like they are from a totally different franchise.
As a fellow Hayden, it hurt to see Samuel be massacred so heavily, also if we're gonna say Doom Eternal's story is bad then we gotta be fair and go back to say Doom 2016's story is bad too because of how forgettable it was.
12:00 He probably doesn't want it to be around not because he hates argent but because it could be a competitor. He seemed like he wanted to be the sole creator of argent so he would get more benefits. Not only that, but he does have an issue with the invasion of Earth, and by destroying the maykr argent factory, it cripples the invasion.
I'm convinced that Doom: Eternal's Samuel Haiden (and Doom Slayer by associations) is a separate character from Samuel from Doom 2016. That's my headcannon.
So the reason the story elements work the way they do is because they focused on making the best game they could and story came after, they still created one of the best lore sets for everything though
The seriphim was a simp for the father so taking the fathers sphere and no longer having contact with him was bad but Samuel was still loyal even though he was a maykr. Samuel still believed in the father to a fault…disagreeing with the kahn maykr for the plan of argent with hell believing it was heresy to the fathers will (whom he simped for) So seeing the slayer as an opportunity (Idea influenced by the dark lord ironically) he took the chance to rid the current regime of maykrs. After messing with the plans of the maykrs by giving strength to the slayer the maykrs saw it as heresy (for there are two factions of the maykrs)
I played eternal before 2016, and all I knew about Hayden was that he was an antagonist in 2016. I was a bit confused why we were working with him suddenly, but I just chalked it up to not knowing 2016’s lore. I now know the lore and still don’t have the answer like you said.
The guy is like Brainiac; we really don't know what he's cooking. It doesn't help that he's attached to Doomguy's Fortress & left unintended....with a training room full of Demonic Spawns and... ...the Demon Cruciable.... Ah shit..........
First, willing to do thousands of sacrifice to save billions is moral for some ppl. So Hayden (2016 and the beginning of Eternal) is not a contradiction at all. If tomorrow oil would disappear from earth, we would loose billion from starvation. That's just how energy is important in our world. In 2150 it's even worst apparently... Second, the fact that Hayden said now we can't let argent energy be create again is not a contradiction... The last time they create argent energy was from argent dnur civilian and fallen soldier. Apparently they was still energy stocked and it could look like it was unlimited. I'm not saying that I love that continuity, I'm just saying that it still worked... The rest, about the angel hayden, yes i more or less agree.
I wonder if making Samuel an angel was to try and explain why Vega was the father and how Samuel had ended up with him, since it feels like they retconned his lore in 2016. Now to be fair a character's lore can change as more stuff is revealed about them. But they kinder didn't do that with hayden; originally he was a guy that cheated death and now he's actually the seraphim? Did he get turned into a human then discovered he was dying and made the robot, or did the human hayden never actually exist and it was always the robot, but he tricked everyone into thinking he had a human life before becoming the robot? It's stuff like that that could have helped his lore flow better from 2016 into Eternal. It's little details like that in my opinion that could have helped the whole "he's really an angel" thing feel a lot less like a tact on story decision. With Vega actually being the father maybe they thought "oh we need to explain how Samuel got him but how would a human get his hands on an alien god? Fuck it, let's make Samuel an alien too." But yeah loved how conniving he was in the first game, he really felt like he had his own goals. Then in Eternal he was a text to speech reader with a cool voice. The best parts we get of him in Eternal is when he's telling the slayer he can't shoot mars and that a canon is a weapon, not a teleporter. It was just a small glimpse at the character he used to be, futilely trying to tell the slayer what to do and failing miserably. I hope in future iterations of DOOM we see him again, I honestly see him as key part of the franchise now. Kinder like how many of the different demons will always make a return for different games I hope he is a character that will make many returns in the franchise in the future. (Though maybe with better writing.)
I kinda headcanon that 2016 hayden was replaced at some point by the consciousness of their captive angel in the UAC atlantica. The voice was similar enough for the slayer and even vega to buy it, but ultimately, Samuel himself is just gone. replaced. and it'd be easier to do so with him especially, since dude's 98% robot. So dude magically knowing about things he shouldn't, having views and stances completely contradictory to what he had in 2016, it's all because that body hasn't been inhabited by Hayden for a very long time, since Samur needed a way to free himself, and saw samuel as the perfect trojan horse.
I though this video waa great. Is echos many of the thoughts I had about DE’s story while playing it 4 years ago that no one else seemed to recognise. I hope your channel goes far buddy
you see a picture of Hayden's human form in 2016, I feel like if they wanted to bring him back as a character separate from the seraphim they probably could if they wanted to.
Nah, I feel like the story is made uncompleted for the people to make their own view on it… If there is mystery there is exitement… Dooms lore does this well enough
he has Literal Love Handles for hips, there was nothing left to ruin this is a joke but still HE HAS LITERAL LOVE HANDLES! WITH TACTICAL RUBBERIZED GRIPPING SURFACES!
For me persinaly its like a "reverse" situation about Doom slayer and Samuel, i wish Samuel stayed a mere human just ballsy enough to screw around with hell's energy and keep Hell at bay, without external intervention and Doom slayer be like an eternal warrior, the one and only who could posibly make demons fear him through his strength and will power, and he turned out to be a regular army man with cool suit and a magick power up, still a good concept, i just wish they went with "doom 3 aproach" when he is the last of his kind, carrying the sacrifice of his entire world in order to stop Hell's invasion.
dude, have you played the Developmental tragedy that is Doom1-2? They were amazing, even with their flaws. Stop crying over dollar bills that weren't printed the morning you got them...
THANK YOU, he was MORE, more interesting as a human with a savior complex butting heads with Doomguy. It just was the best stuff done in a Doom game in terms of characterization. Very, very angry that they made a bunch of convoluted choices for the sake of a twist. Thanks for this video. i just hate what they did.
Making everything connect back to everything else only works in the Hero's Journey. "Luke I am your father" is full of gravitas and pathos of the highest order ... "DOOM GUY, I am the Seraphim!" ... ok, huh? Who cares. It's like they wanted instant-pathos-just-add-character-reveal and it doesn't work in that type of story.
I think we will eventually get something between 16 and eternal that at least does something about this. We also have to remember this was released during covid. Not saying it’s the only reason, but it contributed. I also take a bit of issue with the assessment that Samuel was a villain in 2016. Olivia is the true villain. She’s the one who colluded with the demons in secret. She’s the one who opened the hell portal. She responsible for most if not all of the cultist division, and she kept most of it hidden as I understood it. Samuels only interest was in harvesting argent to resooolve the energy crisis on earth. Was he willing to do questionable things to get that goal, yes, but he still was interested in doing the greater good as he saw it. He picked up the slayer as the backup plan. Granted he woke up the slayer far too late, mostly because in his mind without his company earth has no hope for survival. He was never foolish enough to worship the demons as Olivia did. I also assume that, at the time he as a makyr before taking human form, the Kahn was only interested in siphoning energy from hell. It’s when the Kahn began feeding worlds to hell that Sammy was in favor of destroying argent. He was never an enemy of humanity, a cocky, arrogant leader trying to play hero. Also, I don’t love that the slayer destroyed the father’s soul sphere. It was entirely unnecessary to the plot and lazy writing. Sammy boy was already undergoing transfiguration, all that needed to happen was for the slayer to walk right by the sphere and pick up the dark lords sphere instead. As far the seraphim trying to stop the slayer and needed to stun him? Gee, if only the slayer had a way of inflicting damage on something?? Oh right, just fucking shoot him. Unmaykr, BFG, hell arbalist shot from the ballista. Anything would’ve sufficed. Would’ve left the door open for Vega to take physical form in the future instead of killing him off for good. If they decide to go past eternal in lore chronological they’ll have a lot of Rettconning to do to bring back the father.
The entire story of Eternal is so fucked and full of holes, not only Hayden's. I liked some parts, but some parts i just cant stand, dont even get me started on the whole Dark Lord/Father stuff from the DLC.
The thing is that by technicality he's always been the seraphim but his seraphim Consciousness was transferred into an artificial human body witch caught cancer I think it was I forgot exactly and then he had to be transferred into a human robot body
I played doom eternal and its dlcs fairly recently and only because of this video I realized that Hayden is the Seraphin XD. Also I never seen him as a villain tbh. I always just though he is "doing what he has to do". So in Doom eternal I just accepted the fact that he's somewhat co-operative and helpful without actually caring much. Overall this video is great and made me realize I actually killed Hayden XD. Gotta say it would feel better if my monkey brain would realize it's him. Still that boss fight was the most annoying shit ever. Overall 2nd I like this video and it's the first time I am on your channel and I will be more than glad to leave a like and subscribe. I will check your channel out for some other content later. For now I can say I really like it. Without people like you my life would be 10% more boring. Keep up the good job. Peace
It could have been done if things were linked right like the business man Samual Hayden injected himself with the DNA of dead angels. Thats how he got cancer and thought he’d saved himself in the new body. But it was changing him and altering him even his mind was altered enough. That the proces couldn’t be stopped by transferring himself to the new body. Hints every so often show the personality change. And he doesn’t realise it till it’s too late and he’s the angel and no longer what he was. Now that would have worked. The only other way is if angels had half angels on earth till a descendant can be the reborn angel. But honestly I like my first idea where dumb business man tries to make his life longer and screws up and it screws him over.
It bothers me that in doom eternal they went too far. They took something that worked, and threw out everything but the combat system, and turned the game into a goofy saturday morning cartoon Doom 2016 had bite, it was a bit edgy, and the industrial aesthetic suited it perfectly, but that was thrown out in favour of pretty sights to rip and tear to A saturday morning cartoon has no place for biting social commentary, or any serious form of story telling, and ok, they focused on the gameplay first and foremost and things had to take a backseat. Thats fine, there's nothing wrong with arcady, but doom eternal is a bit too silly, they also made the archvile lame, like, HOWTF DO YOU TAKE THE MOST UNIQUE ENEMY IN THE ROSTER, and make it lame?! Im still seriously insulted by that. And then the two dlc's took things even further and they suck. This sucks. All they had to do was take doom 2016, give it a bit more gameplay depth, keep the feeling of the game the same with more content and a few more guns or mechanics, but its too over the top that it loops back around to beiing silly, and the DLC's are just too over the top compared to something that was already too over the topic. Eternal just hit the mark for most people, and the DLC's went past it. This just goes to show that people mind too over the top, and i just consider eternal more over the top than most. Clearly the breaking point for most people is somewhere between eternal and the DLC's. Edit: Also, retcons on top of retcons. They arent cool, and i dont care who does them, activision or ID, but retcons are BS and i hate them.
And another really bad thing about the last part you said about that it was explained why he was ok to yeet Vega who's a Father just fine (own ambitious and believing that he'll be better leader than him or Davoth) but it was explained on s fucking stream by Hugo after the comment suggesting this question
i feel like haydens arc is kinda meh in eternal but not much for the same reasson. i feel like hayden did what he did in 2016 because he had to do so not because he wanted to do so it seems like olivia was the one who did it all for the evil while hayden tried to do it all for profits while trying to keep it all somewhat under control. so i dont see it that unrelistic that hayden realised that he needs to protect earth from the threat because if he wouldnt do so he wouldnt be able to use the profits in the world with no people
Yeah, the out-of-nowhere lore in Eternal was pretty stupid, in my opinion. Samuel Hayden being the Seraphim and VEGA being God all of a sudden. Hugo Martin knows how to design a fun game. But his writing is pure shit.
It was originally supposed to be soundgardens black hole sun cuz the theme of the song fits with samuel, but i changed it last minute cuz copyright lol also stay tuned that dumb dinosaur game is gonna get a big ass video in the coming months
As good as Eternal is, its story is pretty awful, which wouldn't be a problen if it wasn't given so much focus, and Sam/VEGA probably suffered the most.
