How Evangelicals "Shun" Others (Book Review) 

If conservative churches don't "maintain the power structure" then they will be subverted by activists and diverted from their original purpose. We have seen this happen many times to both Christian and secular institutions. Keep "dissenters" far away -- they are poison to the body. "Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them." -- Romans 16:17

As a former elected official, at the time a Democrat back in 2000 and now an Independent many years later, I truly resonated with the comment "politically homeless."

Thank you for sharing this honest approach to this subject and historical education on church history. I appreciate all your videos and learn so much from them. ❤

The tent can only be bigger when what comes in isn't heresy. Whenever left influence enters a church it invariably leads to secular humanism with a Christian veneer.

Thank you each for an interesting discussion. The topic has been front and center in my thinking since I became a Christian in the early 70’s. I had been raised in a prominent main-line, liberal church, and in many ways felt saved out of that. When I made a “decision” for Christ I was set upon by a theological world view that did not track with my experience. When I declared my intension to go to a conservative bible college instead of our denominational seminary my senior pastor counseled me against it because they probably used books like “The Battle For The Bible” in the curriculum. They did, and as a young Christian this was almost reason enough to support my choice. As I learned more I understood that there was/is a great divide between reformed Calvinist theology and Arminian theology that precedes the great divide between a liberal and a conservative theological world view. I remain today a “decisionist” and think of this as a hallmark of evangelicalism. I thought then in terms of us vs them breaking down like this: higher critical thought vs fundamentalism, socialism vs americanism, liberation theology and liberalism in general vs faithfulness to the inerrant word of God, social Christians vs transformed Christians. I subscribed to Sojourners, Charisma, and Christianity Today magazines years ago. Today I still have a blind spot where reformed teaching is concerned. I admire the scholarly, logical teaching of many preachers in the Calvinist camp, but as much as I am drawn to the style and most of the content I remain suspicious because of my formative experiences. My youth pastor looking at me like I was a martian when I said I had been born again is an image that sticks. I do think the LGBTQ movement is just piling on to theological liberalism in general. I don’t think we can consider the movement a secondary issue like say smoking or drinking. It is an issue of core biblical teaching. As a short hand tool I suppose I am glad to be called an evangelical. Disciple of Christ is more accurate to me but no more sufficient. Thanks again.

Evangelicalism, in my experience, uses a simplified, easy-to-understand approach to the Bible that works as a double-edged sword; sometimes they hit the nail on the head so to speak by making theological concepts understandable by a wide audience (kudos to them for that) that would oftentimes by theologians be done in a wordy, overly complex manner; at other times there’s an oversimplification of certain theological concepts that does not do justice (ie provide a fair and balanced approach to the discussion as a product of biblical scholarship and exegesis) and leads people to take the preacher at their word vs what educated reasoning discerns. I also don’t like that if you don’t agree to the oversimplified viewpoint you’re sometimes treated as “not biblical” or “not spiritual” enough. I am ok with pastors not having training in seminary or theological college (I went to one) as it appears to me Biblically valid (Peter wasn’t trained in the Scriptures to the extent that Paul was) however I do think accepting the calling of pastor should mean a willingness to both read and study the Scripture with an open heart and mind before preaching on it.

If you two ever host a book club that can be attended by zoom count me in.

Thanks, Sean! I don't have time to read all these books, but I do appreciate that you guys going through these books critiquing Evangelicalism. The point about making the Bible the authority (throughout the interview) was exactly what I would expect and it makes me want to trust what you guys are saying more. If Sola Scriptura is what Talbot and Biola hold to, then even if I don't have the same exact view, I know that the heart of these ministires/colleges is in the right place. Thanks again for being the salt and light of the world! I'm happy to see your RU-vid channel growing as well! Seems like just yesterday you had 100K less subscribers!

I love these thoughtful discussions between these two gentleman. Thank you for sharing these with us.

The National Association of Evangelicals was founded to counter fundamentalism on the right and modernism on the left. It was intended to be a middle path - embracing and affirming the essentials of the historic Christian faith (in contrast to modernism, which denied some of them) while embracing an outward approach to culture and the world (as opposed to the rigidity and insularity of fundamentalism). Its Statement of Faith was deliberately brief and broad. People of many different traditions and denominations within the Protestant community could embrace it while still embracing and affirming their traditional creeds and catechisms. What has happened since 1942 when the movement was founded is that there has been a sea change in both the culture and the Christian community. As a result ideas which were mainstream in 1942 are now seen as “right wing” or “intolerant.” In 1942 the idea that marriage was between one man and one woman, for example, was so widely shared that it would have been incomprehensible to have to defend it. The belief that the Bible is infallible was likewise fairly mainstream. Today these views are considered reactionary or intolerant. The culture has shifted profoundly so that what was once middle of the road and mainstream is now on the fringes. Evangelicals have changed some, but the culture has changed enormously. Evangelicals have made our fair share of mistakes and will doubtless make many more, but it’s important to understand that the shift in culture has made Evangelicals look intolerant. That’s important to consider when considering the Evangelical movement.

Great conversation - thank you both!

Back in 1976, the Billy Graham crusade sent letters requesting follow-up to ministers of Catholic congregations, mainline churches, and charismatic fellowships, as well communities who call themselves evangelical. So the BIG tent was larger then. The Billy Graham organization did provide materials that were designed to help people grow in their relationships with the Lord.

Tragically, so many “evangelicals” have gotten so caught up in politics and the near-worship of one politician in particular they have forgotten why they are here.

Really good program! Thanks

Hi everyone 😊 how's everybody doing?

In the 90's psychological therapeutic deism took over and still prominent.

I love your thoughtful vidéos. Keep up the good work

Your critique, Sean, around the 43 minute mark where you emphasize the Bible is entirely the point. I realize, and agree, that the “evangelical movement” has used that starting point to drift into all sorts of positions (like racism) that deserve condemnation. However, as your Dad always pointed to in his apologetics work, the key issue is the Bible. All questions of theological issue must come back to the Bible singularly. If one wishes to use “the Bible plus” concept, that person is not aligned with Jesus and the historic faith. It can’t be called “Christianity.” It could be some new religion that blends some parts of the Bible with whatever new position they want to take, but that’s not where Jesus is.

I am once again begging people like Sean to ACTUALLY talk to former Evangelicals when talking about them.

Modern Evangelicalism began as a middle-road between (mostly Southern) Fundamentalism with its racist history, and theological liberals. Phil Vischer from The Holy Post podcast has a good episode describing this called "What is an Evangelical?" Part of the problem with Evangelicalism is that because of politcs the distinction between Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism has been lost, thus asorbing racist (e.g. "anti-woke") elements back into Evangelicalism. There are more problems than that though. As a result of a lack of scholarship, Baptists, for example, have forgotten their history. They used to insist on the separation of church and state, but now embrace Christian Nationalism and the cult of Trump. Its not just the binary choice of Trump v. Biden - Even in the GOP primary, candidates with far better Christian character cannot gain traction against Trump. This makes so called Evangelicals the leaders of a movement that backs someone with such little support for democracy that he staged a coup. Evangelicals have thus become anti-democratic. Another problem has been the rise of neo-puritanism - with Christ Church in Moscow, ID leading the way, and John MacArthur following close behind. These groups are also anti-democratic, anti-women, and support for covid-denialism (part of a more general anti-science aproach), even support slavery. There are additional issues with abuse and cover-up (Julie Roys has done a good job calling this out). Celebrity culture, the single-demographic approach to church growth, and other issues associated with the rise of mega-churches. Another problem has been un-restrained Charismatics and the false Trump prophets. Finally, there is a separate trend towards increased liberalism, adopting a lower view of Scripture, or leaving the faith altogether (the "emergent" and "deconstructionist" trends). Of all of these, I see Christian Nationalism as the biggest threat to Evangelicalism in the U.S. today. These days, someone who whats to embrace a high view of Scripture, and because of that rejects Christian Nationalism is going to have a difficult time finding Christian community in the United States at least. So where do we go?

One study said, of identifiable characteristics on domestic violence, the ONE that most accurately shows who is LEAST likely to beat their spouses, it’s evangelical Christians WHO ALSO go to church every week and are members of a local church. The MOST LIKELY to be domestic violence perpetrators: “nominal Christians” who don’t go to church every week! There’s a mile of difference between the 9% who meet the definition of “evangelical” and the 43% who self identify….

Scott - you identified yourself religiously and politically exactly how I do. I thought I was so unique in my vagabond ways 😂 I'll have more confidence identifying in these ways knowing a Christian I respect like yourself does the same. Keep up the ministry, Sean and Scott!

Really good discussion

Take care with your definitions. The cultural differences between US and UK need looking at as do thecultural differences to non english speaking communities.

That was a fascinating discussion. Love this kind of thing, even as an atheist. Well done. Just one point. No political platform is perfect. But then no theological platform is perfect either. I think Christians need to get away from the idea that there is Christianity and there is everything else.

While in full agreement with the Nicene creed, a liberal Democrat would not feel welcome in many Evangelical churches. Political viewpoints are considered equal to adherence to sound doctrine.

Sean, how much do you think your conversation here is entirely about American Evangelicalism?

Evangelicals have poked God in the eye through partnering with unbelievers.

I really don't see what's the problem here aside from evangelicals as a group not being aware of it. Doctrines become more clarified over time, it isn't some great hypocrisy or scandal for evangelical doctrine but become more clarified beyond the original wording of the council that formed it.

It would be refreshing to be known as a Christian first and foremost rather then Christian "plus".

Truth and grace are always hard to balance. Jesus is the example of how to do it!

I sometimes believe you (as in many Americans) are too centered on the US and forget there's a whole world of Jesus followers outside.

The "big tent," identity is nothing more than permission to all to remain as we are. To continue in sin. I agree, that the behavior matters. Same-sex attraction is not the same as sexual behavior.

This is the great thing about bing a lot older than most people, you seen it done it experienced it and come out the other end 😂 I can totally understand what he saying 😊

Too many evangelists spread lies about catholicism . They 're usually pretty ignorant about the history of church and very few of them have read life of saints (edifying lives for all ) . They reject eucharisty whereas it is Jesus command Mat 26 , 26/29 , John 6 , 51/54 . A true believer in God should never reject anyone because he 's a sinner , we 're all sinners ( but some sins are more visible than others ) . Instead as christians we are told to spread the Gospel , to be good and merciful to everyone ; if someone is going the wrong way he must be corrected with love and patience without condemning him . Everyone should be welcome in church . 🙏🙏

You guys might want to do some fact-checking: Evangelicalism long preceded Fundamentalism. Indeed you called yourselves at the time "NEO-evangelicals." This is important because Fundamentalists, disliked as they might be/have been, were still Evangelicals themselves. Neo-evangelicals wanted to distinguish THEMSELVES by characterizing their new sensibilities by identifying with Billy Graham as a spokesman, "Christianity Today" as its bi-weekly publication, Fuller Sem. as its hub, and Harold Ockenga as a spokesman, etc. Their statement began with: *"The New Evangelicalism is the latest dress of orthodoxy as Neo-Orthodoxy is the latest expression of theological liberalism."* Recognizing this as historical fact is necessary before you go on here to condemn your enemies for their sins and forgive yourself of your own. It is essential to understand the precipitous decline you are pretending to explain. Do please be honest, if only to claw back some credibility.

As a woman when I see Evangelical the word you would be ashamed to use it if you knew my experience as an Evangelical.

These guys need more research in the "black church" arena. I hate that language as well, so tribal. I think they are trying to be sensitive or appeal to a certain "non-believer" and I think I'm sounding incredibly arrogant but there is a side to the culture, that a lot of blacks subscribe to, that is not grasped by these men.

Polls have found that the number of Americans identifying as evangelical Christians is dropping rapidly. And it's not just the polls. The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest evangelical Protestant group in the country, has lost more than 2 million members over the last decade and a half. ...Virtually every recent poll about Christianity in America has been brutal for its followers. About 64% of Americans call themselves Christian today. That might sound like a lot, but 50 years ago that number was 90%, according to a 2020 Pew Research Center study.Apr 9, 2023

You do know that people will lump strange people in with Evangelical like Greg Locke. People see Evangelicals as extremely legalistic as well. ...Like militant legalism.

The Catholic Church teaches you have to work for your Salvation which is False nowhere in Scriptures does it actually state you have to work for your Salvation Which is false cause nobody on their own can do enough good works to secure their own Salvation only through Lord jesus can Salvation be offered.

Is Sean a silver fox?

Concensus? How likely and much does the "other side" tolerate?

I went to Northside Chrisitan High School in the eighties. They were fundamentalist baptists Evangelical. They had kids there doing black face and they were racist WHILE they had a few black students. I was so mad. But I was a kid and my mother put me in that school.

“Certain views with a certain attitude”. Welcome to your comment section !!

What about “Southern Evangelical Seminary” where I go? 🤔lol

Total failure => if 97 to 98% are still going to Hell. How does anyone believe Satan isn’t winning in your scenario?

Conservative politically and Christian nationally, resentful - that attitude. It's what I experience. It's not all I experience, but you can't blame people for perceiving what is there.

Revealing how you quote the Reformed Theologians, not Dispensational Armenians. Karl Barth is Neo-Orthodoxy--N.O. fits Meachams definition: "A Different (non-christian) Religion." Barth is neither Evangelical nor Orthodox.

Greetings Friend 🙏

I am Muslim and I respect Christians they are my brothers and sisters. I have met many Evangelical fundamentalists fanatics who hate Islam and other religions. Christianity is about love and compassion. I don’t understand why they hate others. The Bible says to love your neighbors that means love them no matter who they are. I hope one day Muslims, Christians, Jews and people who practice other religions get along and live in harmony and peace with one another.

It’s failing because more people are reading the entire Bible for themselves while also becoming more and more knowledgeable about history, science and psychology, as well as what we now know about how the brain works. When you do that, it all falls apart. I don’t say this lightly or flippantly, as I was once a Christian who taught Bible Study, Sunday School, VBS (Vacation Bible School), gave my testimony and lead others to Christ.

Please stop saying "more true." Say, "truer." Yes, it's a word. Say, "broader" instead of "more broad" "fairer," etc. Use the comparative suffix, i.e., "-er." People are putting "more" in front of words that can take the suffix. Try it. You'll like it! Also, "sunk" is not a verb--it's a verbal. The verb is "sank." Otherwise, I liked the discussion, especially "be politically homeless." Amen.

The BEST parable to explain the ridiculousness of evangelical Christianity: The rainy season that year had been the strongest ever and the river had broken its banks. There were floods everywhere and the animals were all running up into the hills. The floods came so fast that many drowned except the lucky monkeys who used their proverbial agility to climb up into the treetops. They looked down on the surface of the water where the fish were swimming and gracefully jumping out of the water as if they were the only ones enjoying the devastating flood. One of the monkeys saw the fish and shouted to his companion: "Look down, my friend, look at those poor creatures. They are going to drown. Do you see how they struggle in the water?" "Yes," said the other monkey. "What a pity! Probably they were late in escaping to the hills because they seem to have no legs. How can we save them?" "I think we must do something. Let's go close to the edge of the flood where the water is not deep enough to cover us, and we can help them to get out." So the monkeys did just that. They started catching the fish, but not without difficulty. One by one, they brought them out of the water and put them carefully on the dry land. After a short time there was a pile of fish lying on the grass motionless. One of the monkeys said, "Do you see? They were tired, but now they are just sleeping and resting. Had it not been for us, my friend, all these poor people without legs would have drowned." The other monkey said: "They were trying to escape from us because they could not understand our good intentions. But when they wake up they will be very grateful because we have brought them salvation." (Traditional Tanzanian Folktale)

*I Grew up evangelical. Now I will join the Eastern Orthodox Church.*

So if you continue to add water to juice, at what point does the whole glass become water? From Martin Luther on we seem to be watering down Christianity. Dont agree with teaching, no problem start a new church. I have seen this sooo many times. This is why the evangelical church is shrinking. We set up a failure mode from the start.

Be carefull who you follow and always test the truth. I dont think its hard to figure out. This world is always trying to confuse you.

I'm afraid to tell you that the evangelicals have already failed and did so from inception.

Sean. I saw those triceps. You are "Jacked for Jesus" arent you! Yes you may use that, and if you would like a shirt designed for that catch phrase, I can give you our website😂

Even when you interpret your own histories, you get the facts wrong! Evangelicalism predates Fundamentalism! It's not the other way around Scott! Fundamentalism itself arose out of Evangelicalism as a response to its liberal leanings. So either Scott is mischaracterizing the author's thesis, or the author is writing propaganda. After listening to the quote from the book that Sean read, my guess is that the former is the case. Despite protestations to the contrary, aside from Evangelicalism's thirst for political power (Read Frances Fitzgerald's book for a timeline) the Evangelicals m.o. always & everywhere, is to exclude the others (what Scott calls "the dissenters") from their ranks. For evidentiary proof of this, one need look no further than the present bruhaha over Trans people or even the internecine squabbles over the deconstructionists. As far as the exclusion of African Americans, may I remind you two that such thinking was in fact based upon "scriptural" (i.e. theological) interpretation--the identical excuse that Evangelicals use today to exclude gay, trans and liberal leaning believers. This is just another exercise in Al La Carte Christianity so the orthodoxy can guiltlessly flip the bird at the few ostracized believers gullible enough to think they matter.

Tribes? Two kingdoms! God's and Satan's"

Not sure how useful any of this is w/o a definition of what the essential criteria for even who is going to be in heaven w Jesus before defining the tent inside that. It can't be perfect theology... otherwise there would be at most a single true Christian!

According to the Pew Research Center: In the next half century or so, Christianity’s long reign as the world’s largest religion may come to an end, according to a just-released report that builds on Pew Research Center’s original population growth projections for religious groups. Indeed, Muslims will grow more than twice as fast as the overall world population between 2015 and 2060 and, in the second half of this century, will likely surpass Christians as the world’s largest religious group. While the world’s population is projected to grow 32% in the coming decades, the number of Muslims is expected to increase by 70% - from 1.8 billion in 2015 to nearly 3 billion in 2060. In 2015, Muslims made up 24.1% of the global population. Forty-five years later, they are expected to make up more than three-in-ten of the world’s people (31.1%).

So basically no one knows what an evangical is, but we all know what it isn't

Great conversation. But enough with the tent annoying analogy.

I’m pretty sure all Christians are evangelical

don the con is scamming the saints and proving who aint

Imagine if it died; what then?

38:20 The major metropolitan areas are overwhelmingly run by democrats, but you make it sound like the mistreatment of homeless and poor is coming from the same side that opposes abortion.

I agree with that many do not want to identify with being evangelical because I am pro-life, but pro-immigration, pro-women pastors/leaders but vehemently pro-Bible. (vehemently AGAINST Trump because he definitely does not act, talks like an imitator of Christ). So what does that make me??

Some people say they are evangelical because they vote Republican or support Trump. I am not sure if it’s always been that way but to many I think it’s that way now.

The saddest thing about Evangelicals is their inability to allow the gifts of the Holy Spirit to flourish (such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healings).

Let’s hope it’s failing….

I like, "politically homeless"

Interesting and thoughtful discussion. The Bible is being used to justify homophobia. Conversely some could consider it to be hypocritical to ignore the Bible when considering how it supports slavery and genocide which most believers would not today condone.

I hear the making of another Matt Walsh movie- “What is an Evangelical?” You are saying that even though someone thinks they’re an Evangelical and calls themself an Evangelical, they probably aren’t a real Evangelical. They should show their Christian birth certificate before participating in Evangelical activities.

Socialism is not the same concept as communism, though

Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Wow you guys ignore this scripture all the time. You pick and choose what you want to follow. You don't do that let's go to scripture thing on divorce do you? I have seen many people in evangelical churches that are even living together. Yet you think a monogamous homosexual committed relationship is where your going to draw your "sola scriptura" line. That is hypocritical. Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Oh wait so you can screw someone who is not a wife. Like a concubine. no wonder Bill Gothard had all those women around him. He was completely biblically justified to have concubines.

There are as many opinions about Scripture as there are Protestants 😅

The evangelical movement saying "we have to go back to scripture" on every issue is a huge turn off...maybe that's why it's failing...

First of all ,I'm not here to offend anyone, but give you a challenge. Instead of just quoting the bible and praising god, why doesn't one of you prove it? First, you need to show the other 2999 registered religions are all fake. Second, prove every single scientific paper that has been through a peerage system is fake. Then you won't have to try and justify yourselves on channels like this. By the way I was a Christian, I tried this myself, thats why I'm now an Atheist. Prove me wrong.

Sean, can you get the actual author of this book on one of your shows? I'm really interested in hearing from him since he conducted all the research.

It is for me. Over the past couple of months, I've been pulling myself away more and more from evangelicalism. I realize that a lot of it contradicts or at the very least disharmonizes with the beliefs and practices of historical and biblical Christianity. Many false doctrines. Lack of reverence. Lack of true and proper worship. Can be argued that it isn't even part of the Church that Jesus established. There are some good things about evangelicalism, but all of those are secondary things

We all fall short of Jesus teaching. Each person has to know Jesus and know what he wants us to be. He said if you love me , do what I tell you to do. Its easy to understand but hard to xecute. Its abattle. It has to do with knowing him and loving him.

The Bible is a research based book too. How else would we know the earth is flat and 6,000 years old?

If Jesus returns how do we know he won't leave again?

Hi George

Union Theological.seminary is a pit of liberalism, Black Liberation Theology.