How Great Games Beat The Grind 

Wow! One million views! Don't you people have anything better to be doing with your time?

"Does gamification help you learn french? Lemme show you." >proceeds to say "no, it doesn't" *in German* Amazing.

I'm surprised this video did not include Factorio, a game that is entirely about automating away any tedious processes that just keeps you coming back.

I love the Stardew Valley music playing in the back v subtle

You're fighting an Oddish with a Geogude? I see you like to live dangerously.

One thing that also helps beat the grind is making the progress physically visible in the world. Mining in Minecraft is technically a grind, but you get to see the area that you have dug out and it makes you proud of your accomplishment and eager to keep going.

Adam: The egg hunt is the most stressful thing in thw whole game! Prairie King: Hold my gun.

13:36 - "Where did all you guys come from?" The channel started popping up in my recommendations after I'd been watching several Mark Brown videos in a row.

3:00 Headphone warning. Gameplay volume is _significantly_ louder than voice.

It’s more like a, “I spent 20 bucks on this I am going to milk this as much as possible.”

I'm glad that Grandpa's Evaluation can happen more than once in Stardew.

The RU-vid algorithm smiles upon you. Praise be to its benevolence!

If I remember correctly, there's a quote from Soren Johnsen that says "given the opportunity, players will optimise the fun out of a game."

*Old School Runescape players want to know your location*

Once the journey becomes boring or obsess about completing everything as fast as possible, all you do is focus on wanting to be at the destination sooner, which further compounds the issue making you constantly aware that you are stuck on a journey you don't want to be on, and must endure to get to the other side. Alot of gamers just play games to get to the destination and in our social media world of today, show off to their fellow gamers/friends of their success. Complete the game, get the achievements, maximum level and gear, to many these are all to be rushed as fast as possible and anything else is a barrier to these goals, of which all story will be skipped, which then leaves them with no context to their gameplay so it is all grind, a race to the end then quit and repeat with the next game. Of course there is no right or wrong way to play games, that's what makes them so brilliant, that speedrunners, loremasters, explorers and achievement hunters can enjoy the same experience and benefit sharing knowledge of all their different areas of expertise. Personally I've never understood the obsession to rush to the end of the game, but I've always taken my time with my entertainment, and I enjoy watching speed runs for their sheer skill and ingenuity. I appreciate a good progression system to keep me playing a game, but when it becomes the entire game to an absurd degree, like Facebook/automated Cookie clicker games, Diablo 3's 17 levels of difficulty and the 100th RPG/open world game with mountains of non-gameplay effecting collectables, it does make you pine for a streamlined game that focuses on other types of progression like story instead of a number going up.

Fun fact: The phrase the daily grind come from back when most of the population were farmer and had to grind the grain by hand every day to make bread .

Runescape Free to Play: Enjoy the grind. Runescape Membership: Enjoy the game.

I was literally multitasking by grinding my pokemon and listening to this video at the same time.

You're so right about grinding being a state of mind. That's why I think it works when games have things like inventory, weapon or ammo caps, because those can be used to discourage getting into a grinding mindset and to throw caution to the wind a bit and explore the game.

AoT: "Grinding is kinda the worst." OSRS players: "AKSHULLLY..."

5:30 "do they help you to learn French?" *proceeds to talk german*

"Loot boxes, card packs, or whatever you want to call them." Me: *S U P R I S E M E C H A N I C S*

RU-vid recommendations from watching Mark Brown, Extra Credits, Mandalore,, Raycevick, Joseph Anderson, etc... You're just a logical next connection.

Grinding can be relaxing, entrancing, even cathartic.

"tell me this isn't awesome" It would be awesome if you didn't destroy my ears XD

What if I'm just a completionist. I love 100% completeing games, even if it includes a week grind. It's honestly calming to grind for me, but only if there is a clear reason to do it. I can go and have a livestream or podcast playing in the background that I listen to, while the grind gets easier and easier to do the more I repeat it. I have gotten stuff like 9999 coins in super mario galaxy 2, which actually takes ages to get, and it doesnt have any reward, but fully completing games is the most satisfying thing for me, so I didn't even mind.

“Grinding” is why I don’t trophy hunt everything anymore, just made some games too tedious for me and ruined that title in my mind

i feel like another great part of stardew is that the goal is subjective, there are multiple end games dependant on what style you play, and different ways to get there.

Adam: Great games beat the grind Terraria being a great game and a grindy one: *Sweats profusely*

Probably been playing too many videogames. XP bars and achievements in non-games actually have the opposite effect - they make something I was more interested in into more of a chore...

It's scary how on point the RU-vid recommendeds are... I'm currently playing Torchlight 2 and been feeling like it's getting a little grindy.

dude your videos are great. Keep working and you will finally be able to sell out

I appreciate your other tabs at 5:14

Your note on planning in Stardew is fascinating since it was the long-term goal and the planning that actually induced the grinding state for me and killed my enjoyment of the game. For me, if the game gives me some long-off goal or limit, then I will end up focussing on that and seeing everything else as a grind to that goal rather than simply enjoying the journey.

I always used the term "grinding" specifically for when I spent almost all my time leveling up, usually towards the end of a level based RPG

"You know there are other people who do this right?" Yeah, I watch all of them. I'm a design addict

Finally someone else who knows that XCOM is basically GOAT.

There's a really tricky distinction to be made between challenging and hard. To pick a completely random example: the Thunderhead Keep mission from Guild Wars is hard. It's hard not because you, the player, are doing anything inherently wrong, but because an AI NPC does some bonkers things like run into enemies when he's low health, causing multiple mobs to attack when you're carefully taking them out one by one. Oh, and that NPC is essential, so you can lose the mission for no reason other than one enemy got slightly into aggro range and you lose. It's hard in that it can take you multiple attempts to complete (and it's a bloody long mission) something that is, in terms of its core gameplay, really quite easy. It's not really grindy; it's just a pain in the arse. Challenging are most of the Witcher's contract fights. It can take you multiple attempts to do, but most of the time you fail because you didn't do what you learnt in the scouts: you weren't prepared. Learn the enemy's weaknesses, prepare appropriate weapons and potions and study its attack patterns and you win, and you have fun doing it. I disagree that 'grindiness' is a state of mind. I think it's a game design feature. MOBAs, RTSs and battle royale-style games are very different. I play Dota 2, and I can't call Dota grindy because every game is completely different. You can have the exact same line-up and the game will still be completely different. Every small difference in decision making has far-reaching effects further down the line. Individual skill of just one player can completely skew the pace and dynamic. The whole game is adapting on the fly. I've replayed Wolfenstein: The New Order multiple times because it's just that good. I can complete it on the highest difficult with relative ease because I know what to expect and I've unlocked everything. The game is all about the gameplay (it has a great story too). While the upgrades and stuff are nice to have, they aren't essential. You can complete it vanilla. The emphasis is on just having chaotic fun, and you can set yourself silly challenges like completing the whole game with a pistol only (FYI: impossible - you will run out of ammo). Grindiness is really an (MMO)RPG phenomenon where levels and items make a profound difference, often via luck. (In Wolfenstein, you want an upgrade, well, it's there - you just pick it up. You can find its location on the wiki if you're really stuck. In an RPG? You need to farm.) You need absurd amounts of gold in order to unlock stuff in most RPGs, especially online ones, and levelling up turns you from a timid loser into an absolute monster. You don't get that in other genres. MOBAs and RTS are all about skill. You can grind cosmetics if you like, but they provide no gameplay enhancements. FPS is all about skill. No amounts of fancy upgrades to your guns will make you good at the game - you still need to shoot enemies. Can you imagine if these genres gave you game-breaking items that are just so good providing you grind away for a 100 hours? Skill is less of a factor in RPGs. They aren't designed to be challenging in the same way that a MOBA is. They designed for, well, role playing. You pick a character and go on an adventure. Sure, you'll encounter tough foes on the way, but in most cases you have the resources to tackle them. Item and level scaling is such, that, you soon won't have any problems whatsoever. You'll have unlimited everything and the best gear - it encourages grinding. I'd love to see more RPG games in the vein of The Witcher where levelling up gives you cool new abilities and you find new gear as you progress, but you never have to grind. Part of that is excellent quest design - they're just fun to do because the stories, voiceacting, world design, etc. is just so good. Even with all this new stuff, if you're crap at the game and don't prepare yourself, you'll still fail. You can't beat enemies by virtue of having good gear alone (compare that to, say, Fallout games where you can pick fights with a super OP weapon and win even with your eyes closed, literally). I'd like to see more RPGs do away with levelling up entirely and look at FPS and even third-person shooters (like Wolfenstein and The Last of Us respectively) for progression mechanics. No levels, but you unlock new perks and find new weapons, etc. through gameplay - naturally. You just find them as you go through if you look hard enough. Levelling is a mechanic imported directly from tabletop games like D&D. Times have changed since then. More levels = better, so players quickly find the best ways of levelling up. Better weapons = better, so players study spawn patterns and farming techniques to get them. That's a grind. The Last of Us doesn't feature a grind - you progress through the game and find new stuff on the way to gain new abilities and upgrade your gear. I definitely think you can incorporate similar concepts into an open-world RPG.

I feel that the very last point brought up does the best job of explaining what grind is, which is that the game no longer surprises you. Or as I like to phrase it, the game fails to present a novel experience, you're no longer engaged in what you are doing. What counts as a novel experience differs depending on each player's mindset, which is why it's hard to pinpoint what's grindy or not. Difficulty, mastery, story, progression, social interaction and gameplay mechanics are a few of the many aspects that drive player engagement, but everyone values each aspect differently. This is why it's difficult to use sentences like "doing the same thing over and over" to describe grind, because what counts as "the same thing" is different depending on who you ask. Examples in this video of games that don't feel grindy, like Stardew Valley and the roguelikes, they all felt unbelievably grindy to me personally. Meanwhile one example of grind in this video, Pokémon, has never felt even the slightest bit grindy to me. If you go straight from gym to gym, you're going to be underleveled and be forced to farm wild pokémon for experience, which is grindy. But I always explore a lot between each gym, and with that exploration comes a lot of trainer battles and varied environment, which is a far less repetitive way to earn experience compared to running back and forth in the same spot of tall grass. Everything is very easy to me because I'm typically overleveled, which is pictured as something that's bad in the video, but that's not something that bothers me in Pokémon because it's not a game I play to be challenged in.

Aye Adam, semi veteran of Stardew here. The bottom part of the egg festival has a Christ Almighty ton of eggs. You'll hardly find any in the top

"Grind is a state of mind, not a state of gameplay" Have you ever heard of Warframe? That game is grind. Only grind. Unless you pay money. But its usually a fun grind.

The "juicy" factor made me realize why I probably wasn't enjoying gaming in the last 3 years... Thank you!!! (I indeed loved playing Nuclear Throne and Stardew Valley)

5:30 that's not French, that's German !

Terraria grinding is rly fukin gud

I find it really interesting how different people's experiences with different games are, because I've played a lot of games where grinding is a significant element and found Stardew to be one of the dullest. There was so little that compelled me to engage with it that by the end of the first week I had stopped farming entirely and would just wander around the map every day hoping something interesting would happen.

7:34 this list. This list has me rolling

You changed my "Every game is a grind mindset. My love from gaming kinda reignited because of you. Thanks!

Grind is a "creative" choice. It just doesn't happen. It is written in.

2:45 Is no one going to talk about that not-so-subtle jab at GMTK? These random petty rivalries make me love this channel even more.

One thing that keeps me playing a game is the sense of accomplishment, being able to look back on what you have done motivates you to keep moving forward

Who else got this recommended after 7 months? Me

Stardew valley watering is a chore, I got no satisfaction out of it, unless I well positioned a gold watering can shot on mobile. However, when your spouse waters the plants is the most satisfying text to read.

I love stardew valley: I’ve logged over 900 hours on it

Terraria is definitely a game that does this well, there's always multiple ways to do things and killing enemies feels satisfying. And there's consistent progress to be made.

*Me:* Wow great video man with awesome points made throughout. Really makes me want to go pick up some of the great games you showed off! *Also me:* Continues, instead, to go for those 99s in Old School Rumeacape day in day out. Only 3600 more hours to go!

I think your point is, that whether a section of a game is a "grind" or not would be different for everyone. Any segment in a game could be engaging or not/"grindy" for someone. How is "grind" different from other "not fun" parts? Am I "grinding" when I machine gun the skip-dialog button in Pokemon? Can you verbalize a definition of "grinding" then? Something like: "The point after which gameplay is no longer engaging?" Once people are able to verbalize what they are feeling, they can better understand it. This should be watched in conjunction with Extra Credits "Awesome Per Second". I think that's essentially what you're getting at: DON'T DIP below some "engagement level" or else you're grinding.

"Without farming some wild Pokemon, I would have never stood a chance to play the game at all." False. You can totally beat the game by just picking up an early team, adding some new ones in mid game, then taking that team through the normal gauntlet of fighting trainers and wild Pokemon on the way... With the exception of Diamond, because that Rapadash with solarbeam was really hard for my team.

I think Bad North is a good example of how to avoid "grindyness." The combat you see is fairly visceral, especially compared to the combat of traditional RTS games where units simply smack each other until one keels over, in Bad North the fights are brutal, even with the simplistic art style. It's fun just to learn how to play the game as well. You can learn all sorts of little tricks and things that make your defenses just a little better. Like putting infantry in front of your pikemen when defending against the axe-throwers, tanking the axes but letting the spearmen do the killing. Finally, the progression is very satisfying. Seeing a new squad on an island, or an item, is exciting. You feel like you really have to give your all to defend each house you can, too, because the gold lost with a house could make the difference between upgrading one of your squads, winning you the next island, or leaving them too weak to deal with the enemies ahead. You can also unlock perks and items for later runs, and set up interesting starter captains and builds. Managed to get a few hundred hours into that game.

Loot boxes? I think you meant, *surprise mechanics*

i really like the reminder that the grinding mindset is within the player. some games others would find too much of a grind are nice for me, i can go into a trance and feel like i'm still doing something productive. it's helped me a lot in times of high anxiety and stress. on the other hand, i've recently picked up stardew valley and found myself feeling the tired grind in the mines. i fall into loops very easily, even ones that aren't fun, so when that happens i have to consciously stop and re-evaluate why i'm feeling this way. usually it just means i need to put the game down, but i do like a little modding to help me out as well! it's all about introspection for me, and keeping my obsessive brain at a healthy balance. i've also learned the psychology around predatory surprise mechanics, and i'm good at not letting them hook into me!

Just found your channel. Its really cool. I like what you have to say and how you break down games. Keep up the good work!

I found the Stardew Valley grind once I started trying to get my golden clock. This after 9 in game years on one save.

This is super interesting I've never considered grinding being a state of mind before!

My favourite MMORPGs allow me to grind for months instead of doing quests. These died out but I loved FlyFF back when it was a thing (v9-v17) and Maple Story Some chillstep/jazz-hop in the background, coffee and a solid discord channel and I can grind for days

'Grind is a state of mind, not a state of gameplay.' No, it very much is a state of gameplay. The only reason why a grind sometimes isn't 'as bad' is when the core gameplay loop is fun to play. Megaman or Castlevania or even games like Tetris have a very good core gameplay. Repetitive is not how I would describe those games, contrary to poorly design 'gather 100 mushrooms' quests that are no fun, no challenge and usually not rewarding. THAT is a grind.

I swear, when I figured out that you grow red cabbage in summer not fall, I barely grew it with deluxe speed grow. Most tense moment of the game

Video about grinding in games and just 7 seconds in there is a Warframe clip. OMG, I can so relate to this.

An I the only one who thinks this Definition of grinding is off?

One thing that I noticed in my time in gaming is that adding a hardcore mode is a way to keep things feeling more intense (More Juice and more challenge). Take diablo like games, lots of grinding for weapons and gear ect, but in a similar game, Grim Dawn, hardcore transforms the game from "Oh no I'm low on health, guess Ill die" to "Oh no I'm low on health, oh god I better do something". A common counter argument I hear is that dying and having to restart is multitudes more grindier than just playing the game normally, but to each their own poison.

Ah, the language of victory. Why would you learn surrender when you can learn German!

Grinding in Monster Hunter is probably my favorite way to do it. Drop rates for the last rare material you need are usually very low, but you can get multiple chances for that piece by optimizing your run by having the monster drop shinies, getting all of the right breaks, cutting the tail and depending on the monster capturing it or killing it for carves. Because you'll be doing this process at least 5-20 times, you'll get even better at hunting it each time and you'll notice more openings to punish the monster to help cut down on time even further.

As an Esports player grinding is part of my enjoyment. You grind to improve to therefore do well in competition and then you analyse your games to figure what to grind, repeat. Without the grind, you never do well, and therefore you never feel happy. Plus improvement=fun for me.

Thing is about warframe's grind, the collection of crafting materials (or whatever) isn't the only thing you're doing while grinding. You can also be levelling weapons, and testing out mods for them to see how to make them better. You can use your warframe abilities in clever ways on the battle field to bring yourself at an advantage (why I main equinox), and get much better at certain types of weapons. No one can play warframe, spend the first few hours using a sub-machine gun, go to using a bow and be good at it straight away. All of these thing, for the most part, keep your mind off the grinding and onto the action that's happening right in front of you. The biggest flaw with warframe though is the lack of things to do when you've reached the end game.

from my experience when u know ur grinding but still happily do it, that means u love the game so much or u have too much freetime. thats me when i was playing truck simulator and farming simulator

Man, I love your videos so much. Thank you for all your great content. You should mention Oldschool Runescape sometime. Such a great game. Love you :)

I have to admit, from time to time I really enjoy repetitive grinding without having to think much about it. I put on a movie or a Stream and play some Torchlight or replay Sacred for the 100th time or something like that. It may be just something to keep my hands occupied but I do enjoy it.

allot of people enjoy stardew valley and those sort of games, sadly i do not

man so spot on, I had so much fun in certain grindy games (tera) just because the grind was enjoyable. On the other hand, I've dropped games that were amazing but felt like a chore

RuneScape is the real grind. 44 hours is nothing lmfao

Love how it shows Warframe gameplay when talking abut grind. Very fitting.

Sorry did you say Harvest Moon

I think another game where “farming” is really fun is Hotline Miami. You play, fail, but most importantly learn something. You learn there’s a guy with a shotgun there and a guy with a knife there! You develop a strategy around it and when you make it to the end of the level and finally get that A+ rating it’s SO satisfying. And every reset feels like a bit of a different level. Plus, the music is great and the controls are just a snappy as the gameplay.

I've grown to appreciate the grind more as I got older since I began speedrunning which one wouldn't enjoy if they hate grinding games.

While I do agree that in stardew, getting the community bundles was very interesting indeed, I'm one of the rare bunch that loves to optimize and manage resources. So I wound up having the entire farm be coffee beans and sheds that hold kegs. 10 sheds to be exact, 3 of which are large, all full except 2 large sheds. In year two I harvested close to 50,000 coffee beans, which was a bit excessive and honestly tedious by the end of summer, but it was a personal challenge that I enjoyed. When I played the first harvest moon as a child, I got a poor grade in the end because I didn't socialize lol but I did harvest pineapples till I was super wealthy.

I always bring my grinds with some sort of challenge. If I need a bunch of glass in Minecraft, I’ll try to dig out the entire desert. I also always have something else going on. A TV show or music to keep my mind interested

"Wasting time with a game that doesn't respect yours is probably not a good call" well said

6:46 *Trickling water sound *MEATY* *CRISP*

I actually got that with Minecraft. I constantly feared the night time, so I was always shying towards creative. The entire experience seemed like a grind to be able to survive.

Every time I see one of your uploads I make time out of my day for it lol. Your commentary on everything is damn amazing and your the entire reason that I have played Disco Elysium lol. Have an amazing day, man

4th method: Teach people that exp is good, exp waste is bad, and grind is life. It'll be a way of life that gives bragging rights at the end, but you'll immediately miss the grind when you're done. This happened to me with WoW Classic actually not too long ago. I reached level 60 on my Dwarf Paladin, got bored that I no longer had an exp bar, and immediately started a new character. I started playing Runescape in 2002, and have a maxed out character with level 120 in every skill, tons of money in the bank to last a lifetime, and basically the best of all the gear. Yet when I reached it, I hopped on a fresh new character and started levelling that while using the game's market "Grand Exchange" to flip items for profit on my main account. For me, grind is a way of life, it's constant progress. Seeing those exp drops and working my way through the levels is what I enjoy. I care about the rewards, sure, but the levelling experience itself is great fun for me.

Your starting, like the example of a game you previously liked being grindy now, made me see: "grind" is all about lack of progress, including lack of learning.

3:10 Aah, I had my volume up because of the Stardew valley music and then you suddenly start blasting this

I like how there are games where the main gameplay is grinding.

My biggest takeaway from this video is that games that inspire you to set goals for you self are the most effective and avoiding "grind".

Terraria is another example of a game that avoids grinding, as it takes doing even the simplest, everyday activities that would be considered chores in other games, and makes it fun

Great video. Made me think about why I enjoy the games I enjoy

have i told you the definition of insanity? doing the same thing over and over again - that is insanity

I think Terraria has some fun grinding thanks to the very rich underground. The different varied areas and their varied enemies on the underground makes mining a fun mini adventure, and sometimes it might even be more fun than certain bossfights. Chance based drops are indeed a pain though, but mining is the main necessary grinding in the game and it's definetely fun.

I like playing games that feels like a work of art. Not necessarily the looks, mind you. Rainbow six siege feels complex and theirs so much to learn when you get into it that it feels sooo satisfying when you successfully do anything. Then when you learn it, the multiplayer teaches you that there is infinitely more complexity to how other people have learned the same thing so differently. I overcome new challenges every time I play :)

I have a modded minecraft server (have used generously, it's paid for evenly by me and a couple of friends and I don't even run it), and we got ourselves an MMO mod. We implemented it so the guys with a ton of time wouldn't dash off into the endgame again before the rest could enjoy it. Except that it didn't help at all. Now most people are stuck trying to grind one specific skill (endurance is a bitch, cuz you have to tank damage for that) while the fast players still made leaps of progress. Not only that, it also made some other mods lose value. For example: Create is a low-power industry mod, mainly based around various ways to generate torque and build multi-block machinery for the torque to power. It involves conveyors, cogwheels; all that jazz, and has a strong medieval industry feeling to it. It's main selling point is how you can construct a variety of machines to bulk-process resources. You can make drills, harvesters, conveyor systems, sorters, automated crafters, and can even replicate blast furnaces and smokers with bulk blasters and smokers (and also bulk washing, which is a unique process similar to the other two). Instead of smelting iron via coal, you can use a crushing wheel to get crushed iron, and then bulk wash it to get 10 nuggets with a chance for 5 extra, rather than 1 ingot. further, there's a chance the wheels will drop up to two extra crushed ores, meaning a single ore will net you between 10 and 45 nuggets. However, the MMO mod can also do this, but using Create won't grant xp for the MMO mod. further, the grinding is SO tedious. I had to stand in lava for half an hour to raise my endurance from 45 to 49 (for terrasteel armor from Botania), and stone pickaxes only unlock at mining 10, meaning you'll have to waste time using shitty wooden pickaxes until then. Another grievance is the woodcutting, which denies me the use of manasteel axes (which self-repair if you have a charged mana tablet, meaning you just need one). It isn't ALL bad though. Training toughness gives you extra hearts, and agility (which is trained by sprinting) boosts sprint speed which is nice. There's also swimming, which will eventually grant darkvision when you submerge. Even so, grind done bad: the MMO mod for minecraft