If you're using a ring a good way to mitigate the bend radius issue is you spilce up a double headed set up. I've spliced a couple and, of course, it double your bend radius instantly. That being said i've witnessed some rings i've spliced up withstand some crazy weight (controlled-ish test environments). Double headed rings are light weight and allow you to rig big is you want too.
I think that's actually a common misconception. They don't really improve bend radius at all. They break up the 180° bend with two 90° bends, but the 90° bends are still thet same radius. Double rings definitely have more mass for storing thermal energy though which means they could handle more friction without getting hot.
@@zaccheus The bend angle is 180 degrees in both instances (i.e. the rope goes straight up and straight down) but two rings will double the bend radius. Also, the rope fibers are more relaxed with two 90 degree bends then one tight 180 degree bend. A 4:1 ratio of rope diameter to bend radius is recommended to help allow equal loading of the rope fibers in order to maintain strength. Ropes strength is greatest with a straight pull. The tighter a bend radius the less ability the rope fibers have to work in a concerted effort, which leads to rope failure. Do as you wish as I am not here to tell you do something one way or a another. I don't want anyone injured and am just trying to clarify what I read as a misunderstanding of bend angle and bend radius.
@asonunique7083 I'm not a mathematician, and i hope this makes sense. Also, please feel free to kindly correct me if I am wrong, as I'm also a tree trimmer and would like to make sure the way I am envisioning this is correct so that myself and others are not harmed. The way i thing about it is when the bend is stretched out over a greater area of the rope, it has less of a negative effect that could cause the rope to fail. So by using two rings instead of just one, the force on the rope is supported by a greater surface area. Similar to laying on a bed of nails vs. laying on just one? When the weight is distributed more broadly, i would imagine it would be less harmful. Another example to explain the way I think about it, wether or not it is correct, is hanging fishing string over a skinny tree branch and yanking it, trying to break it vs hanging it over a fatter log and trying to break it. It would be easier to do with the skinnier branch. Both end up at 180 degree angles, but with more/less sharp angles, therefore, more/less surface are for support. Does that make sense? Sorry if that's wrong, just the way I kind of interpret it.
I'm not a tree guy, a feller, nuthin. But after 40 years in construction, I am somewhat of a rigger, (sort of) and so I appreciate your planning and thoughtfulness on the job. It's invaluable! Thanks for all the great videos
Zach, your inquisitive mind makes for an interesting channel. You research areas that most 'tree guys' probably don't even think about when working trees. You seem to be constantly assessing situations to be safe and efficient with your time and movements. Keep sharing the analytical things with us rather than just running your saw and making cuts. Blessings.
10:15 you're smart enough to learn! Also, slick climbing and saw handling. I will admit I skipped some of the video, but this went swimmingly. Job well done.
I wouldn’t hesitate to use rings for heavy rigging as the small amount of friction they add up top makes for a smoother ride for the climber. I like to use shorter/expendable ropes for the lower/bigger wood. No need to glaze a 150’ or 200’ rope when lowering heavy stuff 40’ to the ground.
That's a good thought. I would prefer to use a block rather than risk glazing a rope. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that glazing weakens a rope, and I don't want to use a compromised rope on big wood.
@Southern-Born-Southern-Bred That makes good sense, but I'd still rather use a block on even a short rope. Most of the time I'm rigging because I don't want to crush what's below. So if the rigging is exposing the rope to enough heat to melt it, I'd rather not use a ring in that given scenario.
I am a ring abuser. They get grooves in them over time from the work line. But other that that I don't feel bad about them getting dropped or muddy. No moving parts.
Absolutely! I might throw them away if I see grooves forming, but I definitely won't hesitate to throw them out of a tree if there is soft yard below. That the best part right there 😅
The cold rope is cooling the ring too. That poor ring can't figure out if its supposed to get hot from friction( rubbing two icicles together is friction too) or if it should get colder from the cold rope. Great experiment. thanks. George.
Thanks George! I did think of that too, I was just too excited to try this to wait until warm weather 😅 I'll do it again next July or something and we will see if we can get up close to that 200° mark
I am a strong advocate of rings in an ultra sling configuration. I am slow and do a poor job with most of what I do, it is nice to gain some time back with an ultra sling.
Thays primarily all I use them for too. They're really small and light to keep on you saddle if you gotta move a redirect around in a tree alot all day. I have a small one on an ultra sling, and your totally right, it's the way to go.
I only use blocks and pulleys in lifting situations. Prefer the simplicity, lightness, and price of rings. The xmann has some videos about the temperatures that rings can get to while rigging. He chose tenex specifically for its high temperature threshold. Dyneema is not a good choice for a ring because it can be damaged at lower temps. I spliced some rings with 3/4" promaster, the ultimate cheap diy rigging setup,
I'll have to check him out. Dyneema performs very poor under shock loading as well. I've heard some stories about dyneema cored crane slings breaking when used as rigging a sling up in a tree. Tenex is made out of polyester just like the rope and sling we used in this video. Rings do dead to be cheaper, but most often have a shorter life spand compared to the indefinite life span of rigging blocks. It all comes down to preference really. There are some bigger rings that even meet bend radius requirements for some ropes.
@@wcakgilleran I see what you're saying there. Ariel friction can be handy when needed and there would be more mass to put the the thermal energy into. It's nearly the same amount of surface area contactbetween the rope and the rings, just half goes on to each ring rather than all of it onto one ring.
Great video. You will get much hotter rigging the canopy. The amount of time to unhook and rig the next limb takes a lot less time than moving for the next negative rig. I’m curious too. If you get a chance and want to, I’d like to see it!
I think your right and I hope to try it out. It's just gonna take the right job where I can sit in the tree top and measure the temperature while someone else does the rigging. I'll pro ably wait until it's a little warmer outside too.
These aluminum rings cool off quicker than you will be resetting the next limb. How fast your trying to work will usually have an inverse relationship to the weight of the pieces you're taking.....if this is not the case, you may need to ask yourself if you're trying to go too fast...
@Samuel Luria That's a fair thought for sure. I guess the folk that have told me about getting burned have rigging multiple limbs out consecutively of of one point. I'm gonna try that again in the spring I think.
I'm a huge fan of rings both for main rigging points and for redirects. THey are lighter and quite fast to set up. I will say, I use the safebloc for almost all my medium to medium large rigging these days. Such a good device. XMAN knew what was up
@@zaccheus I havent noticed heat build up on the safebloc to any extreme extent, but I am generally only using it for rigging big where there is time between pieces, or as a high remote point.
I am also a huge fan of the rings, and especially the safebloc. I also only use the safebloc for larger pieces. I've never had a heat issue but there is always a bit of time between cuts.
Couple thoughts...use the choking rings (daisy chain) instead of all that hitching and wrapping. Also on your pull vehicle...put a come a long on the pull vehicle, stretch the cable out and use a porty to attach to the pull line. Then you can crank under much more control than some guy jeopardizing the vehicle being pulled back while driving it. And like said...you won't get that much friction heat on that short of a distance lowering...with the ground doggie feeding properly. PS...guy/s who said single rings are not for rigging is full of $h@t. I have rigged more huge stuff with mine out of the top than you could imagine. Leave the blocks at home.
Thanks, I'm 27. The babu face has just stayed around awhile 😅 Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The fella I was working for definitely prefers the daisy chain knot and I'm just in the habit of using a running bowline. I totally agree that you can have way more control pulling by hand. I don't like pulling with trucks that have torque converters, but on hydrostatically driven implements like that tractor, a dingo, or a small articulated loader, the operator receives good feedback through the drive system and can get a decent idea of how hard he or she is pulling. I think it's good enough for less than critical falls 🤷♂️
flesh burns 1st degree 120F scald about 150F goes 2nd degree, 164F 3rd degree. Remember the ring gets much hotter than the rope sliding through. Don't leave the rope in contact after a drop, it will stick to the ring. sometimes, The only disadvantage rings vs pulley is no mechanical advantage when controlling drop.
This video is awesome, I love the actual numbers and schematics you put with it, I’ve personally burned myself on one of those rings, I use them all the time, on my channel I have a video called Wednesday morning not a surprise and somewhere partway through the video I’d say in the first half after I change my rigging is where I burned myself and realized how hot they got, I guess I learned old school and I just feel stuff out for what is acceptable… I have also exploded a couple slings while rigging with a ring, not sure if that had to do with the heat but probably too heavy of a piece, only experimented when nothing was at risk except what I was experimenting with
I'll have to see if I can find the video! I believe it, I want to try a couple different things yet. For one, I want to give it a try on a hot summer day and the. I'd also like to try it as a primary rigging point in the top of a tree. I just want to see if it gets any hotter when used on a fast cycle time.
A tree that height isn’t probably going to tell you much about heat issues you need to get up a 45mt mountain ash and dig some big stuff down with it then I’d bet the ring will be hot enough to cause enough temperature spikes on a consistent basis on the rope that surrounds the ring,but maybe you wouldn’t use them on long rigs for that reason and just use pulleys instead
I'm sure a taller tree would get it hot. A heavier piece also. I'm on the lookout for an opportunity to try it again on a big top, I just need the right opportunity.
@skratzracecarsandfabricati7333 It's 5/8 stable braid. 1/2 stable braid only has a WWL of around a thousand pounds. I get this rope out when I need something a little stronger.
Nice video Good point on the tight bend radius I think that’s the big rope killer. I still like rings better cuz they’re cheap and rigging rope longevity is usually much shorter anyway due the extra abuse. They usually get cut by someone before they reach a 2 year service life or something. So not ideal but rings get 👍 from me
When you put your notch in is your saw about chest height? I’ve been told to not do it that way and to cut at waist height but I’ve never been comfortable doing it that way and it’s a habit I can’t break and to me doesn’t seem like I necessarily need to break. The only time I really cut at my waist in big wood is while doing crane work on conifers or straight spar picks
I really might not be the best person to answer this. I read some where once that it's best to keep the cuts between you waist and your shoulders. You really can't cut at your waist because your flipline shouldn't be angled down. In all reality, its probably best for your shoulders and elbows and back and such to not be cutting up higher on your body. I think the important thing is to not be cutting at neck height because if the saw kicked back and hit you, you'd bleed out pretty quick 🤷♂️
I'm pretty sure there are stories of ropes being melted to porta wraps. I think the main difference is the way the friction is applied. On a porta wrap there is a lot more surface area.
@@abetaylor4977 I believe it, I've never handled one, but it sure seems like it would add friction to the system for sure. Do the groundies ever struggle to pull the rope back up to you?
I love the concept of rings but i dont use them because there is so much controversy over there integrity and bend radius. I wouldt want that in the back of my mind while doing any big rigging. For small rigging i just use a small impact block on a ultrasling
I'd have to say I'm probably in a similar position with you. Should there ever be an equipment failure that results in a court case, I don't want to be accused of using the wrong stuff.
It's interesting what people have to say about rings. Some use them, some don't. Some used them and went back to a pulley, other stick with them 🤷 they seem smooth and often you don't need lowering device with a safebloc
It is an interesting gray area for our industry. I was honestly hoping to clear it up a little with this video, but I don't think I helped anything at all. For me, I think I'll primarily stick to using blocks for now
Good idea: try this again in the summer! Love your videos bro I'm a climber in Cleveland Ohio and I've been watching for a while. Love to see more dudes (especially near me) who know what's going on and doing tree work proper! Also, I use a pulley 9 times out of 10. I use rings for redirects most of the time and pulleys/blocks for most of my main rigging, big or small, for the simple fact that it is much more efficient, especially for lifting. Peace m8 ✌️🙏🌳🪵🌲🌴💓👋🎵
Thanks Devin! I'm always glad to hear from local guys. I'm right there with you. I had the get this ring specifically for this experience, I have a couple small ones for redirects and the like. Stay safe up there!
ok Zack the issue here with your experiment is that you were not using the ring as intended. One ring is not meant to be used as the primary rigging device. Three rings is manufacturer recommended
Manufacturer of the ring or the rope? The manufactures of the rope suggests that you should use any rings that don't have an appropriate bend radius. The only ones I know of that offer close to the minimum requirements for bend radius are the bend-right ring and the FTC Fiori ring. The ring I used did not have the appropriate bend radius, but I don't think bend radius should have much to do with heat saturation in the ring. Also I wished to test what many folks are using, ever if it's not correct. I imagine that a double or triple ring would run cooler as there is more aluminum mass to soak up the heat.
Great video! I just got one of those big ol notch rigging pulleys that’s shown around 2:50, but with an ultra sling. Thing feels like a beast! How much do you think the ring affected the friction needed at the base compared to a pulley ?
That notch block was pretty sweet, it belongs to Bo, the fella that hired me for the day. I really don't know. I'd say it was minimal enough that it didn't really matter. Those pieces were all well within the capacity of the GRCS bollard that we used for friction at the bottom of the tree. In that case we weren't at all worried about the structural integrity of the spar so we weren't particularly motivated to reduce the load on it with aerial friction.
I looked uo that Fiori's ring and that thing looks huge at 2.2 lb what's the bend radius in that thing? It's unfortunate that it costs more than the big yellow isc block, but it's super cool looking thats for sure.
@@jardikferenc194 I need to see one of those thing in person, that's wider than the bend right ring then I think. Which means it's probably wide enough to make a 4:1 bend ratio for a 5/8 rope
Not the most scientific experiment. A long controlled decent would heat rings more. Free falling with little control would not heat the ring as much. I'm sure the rings never get close to any melting stage as the heat dissipates quickly. I've singed a few tree crotches along the way. I like rings and pulleys....both serve me well.
That may be the perception, but the reality is that it's simply the rate at which the kinetic energy of the piece being lowered is being converted into thermal energy through friction on the ring. If you convert it slowly over time, the ring has more time to dissipate the energy, if you convert it quickly the ring will get hotter because it cannot dissipate as fast as the thermal energy is being put into it. But you're right, we exacy follow the scientific method. This "experiment" was really just loose data collection.
No, I didn't, I'm sorry. I did do a little filming of a couple GRCS rigs and cutting a top out of it. I'll put those in another video. We were just rather pressed for time and I wanted to respect bossman's budget.
@Santizo's Lawn Care Thanks man! My content was a little dry this winter as things slowed down, but I'm hoping tinhave some good stuff here as work picks up.
I love using rings I have a bent right ring I ordered it online I think a company in Canada I believe makes them but I love it cuz it comes on a whoopie sling throw it through you're done
Haha, I know you like your rings 😂 I ha e notice that bend rite has probably the best bend radius of any of the other rings. Do you happen to know how wide it is?
@@zaccheus I can measure tomorrow when I get to the shop for you but I know you can fit up to a 3/4 rigging rope into it if that helps it all do you want the wideness of the whole ring or just the hole that the rope goes through buddy
They thanks for your comment! That seems to be a fairly popular thought, but I think it's based on the idea that double or triple rings produce a better bend radius. I don't really think they do. Instead of having one 180° bend, they just make two 90° bend right next to each other. On the other hand, I imagine that double or triple rings would have more mass that would be more capable of absorbing more thermal energy without getting at hot.
@@zaccheus double rings stacked side by side (which is what everybody is suggesting) absolutely does make the bend radius larger. that's because the rope is bending around two rings stacked with the holes facing each other. two rings are wider than one, therefore bend radius with two rings is higher.
@verteup It's important to consider the shape of the rings. There is a small gap between the rope contact points when the rings are beside each other. What you end up with is two tight 90° bends with some space between them rather than one tight 180° bend. There is an illustration on this web page that might explain it better than I can. www.bendrightrings.com/
Climbers abuse rope all the time. Look at climbing rope and all these rope torture devices attached to them. Don't forget knots too. A big ring has a decent radius for bull rope - that isn't a problem. Only if you cram a big rope in a small ring. I wouldn't run a double ring as a continuous bend is better rather than bend/straighten/bend that you'd get with doubled rings. If you are dropping huge weight a long distance, maybe those double thick rings are worth the cost? Bend-Right. Will provide more bearing area. I say use rings if you are only lowering. Safe Bloc even better. Keep your rope clean though. I'm a rigging engineer by day and pretend tree climber by night. Real rigging slings have D/d ratios to abide by but we're using much more of a sling's capacity. 5:1 safety factor. We are using more actual rope these days because of Dyneema and Spectra being so light, tough and strong. I'd have to look but 1" 12-strand Dyneema rope is good for at least 22,000 lbs with 5:1 safety factor. Stronger than 1" wire rope.
I believe it, dyneema is tough stuff and I wish we could use it for rigging operations in the tree industry. There are some dyneema cored ropes out there but they are limited to use at highlines and crane slings as I understand. I think there was a story about a fella who used a crane sling to tie a block in a tree and it railed way below its break strength. Something about the heat that builds up in dyneema when it's tied in knots and shock loaded I think. I have an endless dyneema webbing sling and it break strength Is nearly halved in a choker configuration. I haven't been able to find any proper information on appropriate bend radius through rings. Samson says they suggest no less than a 1:3 ratio on static bollards, and no less that an 8:1 on sheaves. The tree care industry seems to stick to 4:1 for everything, so I don't really know what the minimum is. This ring is only 1.75" inches wide and my 5/8 rope there shpuod technically see no less than a 1.875" diameter bend to maintain that 3:1 rule. I hope to try that bend right ring, it sounds like a cool piece for sure.
@@zaccheus Holloway Houston Inc. advertises their D/d = 2 for their Dyneema rope slings called their Hammerhead. It is a 12 strand Cortland Plasma 12 rope - pretty equal to Samson AmSteel-Blue. They do recommend 3:1 for better longevity. I'm pretty sure they used to advertise 5:1 but they now have some years on the product and proven smaller hardware diameters is OK. Holloway sells a LOT of the Plasma 12 rope and so no one else could touch their prices when I bought about $70,000 worth of slings for my project. Holloway typically does include a braided jacket over the rope. I see it as completely necessary to have a jacket on Dyneema rope slings. The rope is fairly loose and thus too easy to get dirt and rocks inside. That said, check out Yale LOUPS slings if you want to see something cool.
Another super cool product is Tycan synthetic chain. Van Beest of the Netherlands makes the stuff. If they get some competition to get prices down - Tycan would be awesome for all sorts of rigging. I have some at work and I'm sure it was probably $50-60 per foot. Rated for about 13,200# vertical. Links are 3-4" long - all Dyneema webbing sewn into links.
@@schwartztekllc very interesting! I would definitely expect to see dyneema 12 strand covered by some kind of sheath. Especially in tree work with all of the abrasive surfaces, it's really easy to pull strands out if loose knit ropes. I'll have to check that out!
@@schwartztekllc Thats very interesting. We have some similar stuff in the tree care industry made out of polyester slings. I've seen it used for a variety of things, but I've never had a need for one.
I know, I wish I had some 200' confiers to try it in. We just don't have trees that tall here. I'd love for someone who works in those trees to give this a try. That thermometer was only like $30
