How Loud is Too Loud? With David Grissom and Matt Schofield 

I still remember a gig I played where the sound guy told us, "You need to turn your amps down as low as they'll go and let the PA do the work". Like it was the most obvious thing in the world. So we did it and showed him what that would be like and he just didn't understand why our guitars were now clean and the PA "wasn't working".

If the amp isn’t pushing enough air to move your pants, it’s not load enough! 😏

If you’re playing in a club/bar situation if the waitresses can’t hear what people want to drink the bar owners not going to be happy and if your not flexible enough to tone it down. You won’t get hired again.

There’s loud and there’s stupid loud.

I'll be honest, I loved loud music as a kid and younger person, but these days nothing kills me wanting to see a show out like experiencing something that's "too loud" I do think that level depends on the artist and playing style, but there is nothing worse than sitting in a show that is painful. That's why I think we are going to see things get quieter and quieter.

Much like drugs....people think, oh I can handle it, only other people will have a problem with that. Sound above 80 db for extended periods of time WILL damage your hearing, not maybe, WILL.

Anything over 95db for extended periods will cause damage. Flirting with over 100db for long will pretty much guarantee you’re hurting your hearing for later in life. I’m 62 and have debilitating tinnitus, and upper frequency hearing loss as well. I loved loud music as a teen. Then served in the USMC. I wish I have taken better care of my hearing now.

I’m at around 13 minutes in and you’re comparing no amp to having a 4 cylinder going uphill. I totally agree with you. I may be wrong, but it seems that people who aren’t guitar players fall to realize that we actually use two instruments - the guitar and the amplifier. There’s a synergy between the two that creates the timbre.

Read a article about tom petty and the heartbreakers. Yrs went by before they realized a smaller amp could work and sound good..

i have met few Sound guys that really knew what they were doing ! If the band and the music is not cluttered , nothing wrong with a nice strong sound on the loud side. I've seen David Grissom at the Saxon Pub twice .Not a really large venue and he was never too loud !

“ride the tone”, great description

We live over a mile from our local High School and the marching band practices outside and we hear it loud and clear. So, live music is loud. I can pretty much play at any volume I want here at home, even with windows open. Rock music is supposed to be loud, but it should not be so loud that your killing peoples ears. So I agree that the tonality of the sound is what really matters.

I am a player of 60 years. I have come to the conclusion (with some roaring ears working me over 24/7) that a 40 watt amp is plenty for guitar, maybe 60 for bass.

Great chat! I have a drummer with the deadly cymbal issue, it's just crushing...but yeah....my pet peeve is that sound guy that puts drums and bass in the monitor mix (much less how loud you know they're putting that in the mains), then tells the guitar to turn down. I've developed a polite but firm No vibe on this, with an explanation that if they insist on keeping me low on stage and in the mix, I am certain I can overpower them from the stage, ruining everyone's night, so how about we work together to ensure the audience gets a musical show, and not just a drum & bass circle.

I think one reason we started to turn down by the 90's is we were getting older and tinnitus starts to rear it's ugly head. I remember attending an Elton John concert in the 80's that was so loud, there was this, sort of, doppler effect going on. The crazy volume started to alter my perception of pitch. So, I watched the show with my fingers in my ears. These days, my ears ring all the time. I wear ear plugs for everything. If it's too loud, my enjoyment of the music is diminished. In my band, we play mostly clubs and smaller venues and the biggest problem is that the drums are too loud. Consequently, I have to play over that, which makes the whole band too loud. I'm talking about a 25 watt Mesa Boogie combo that, fortunately or unfortunately, is capable of playing 'too loud'. It really is a problem.

I'm just a weekend warrior in a rock band that plays shitty little local bars. I'm 62. Stage volume is the enemy of a good mix for the audience. The quiet stage approach (no amps, IEMs) works for us. Yes, it's very different than the old days (80s, 90s) but the audience gets a good mix at a sane volume and the club owner/staff are happy that they don't have to shout at people. Of course, once you move to larger clubs and theatres there is a lot more room for stage volume not to kill the audience.

Schofield says is at 12:50. Ride the tone with BIG notes and it makes you play not so many of them.

In-Ears and Cans will destroy your hearing

'Loud enough to take matters into my own hands.' Now there's an answer.

Seen Chris Duarte small club 3x..

For me, 80dB at my ears is great. Ideally, 80dB at everyone's ears. Music must balance. I want to hear it all without any one instrument (or vocals) dominating.

Funny...I saw Eric Johnson back in the 90s in an outdoor setting in Hawaii. His Marshalls were loud, but clear. They sounded great. What was interesting was when Eric switched to his clean amps. I think they were Twins. OMG. Every time he switched to a clean part, I thought my eyes were going to pop out of my head. It sounded great because he's so clean, precise. I could imagine, though, that in the hands of someone less refined, those Twins would've spelled the end for any small, wild animals in the immediate vicinity.

I work as a professional guitarist, gigging every week in the UK - and you wouldn't believe some of the limits venues have in place. I regularly have to wrestle with 80 db sound limiters (a good one is 95db) that literally cut the whole power if you go over it. It's insane. And sound guys over here, if they even hear a whisper of guitar coming from on stage they tell you to turn it down. Silent stages everywhere. One London venue I do, they have an electric drum kit and no speakers on stage (all in ears) and I took them out half way through and I could literally hear my electric guitar strings acoustically more than what was coming out front. It's a joke! And guitarists are complicit in this by using these stupid modellers because everyone is too scared to be heard.

Live gig/concert dynamics have largely disappeared because PAs go down to 25hz now and FOH guys push 30 to 80hz at the same db levels as everything else? Why? IMHO because they can.... Back in the day it was loud but not every frequency was loud. Gating and compression doesn't help dynamics either.

Yet, in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s guitars were loud…and so were the drums and bass. For some reason it still sounded great at shows. I will say that I have seen more shows since the 2000s that sounded like garbage. PAs are more powerful, efficient and cleaner than ever but for some reason everything that isn’t the vocals needs to be neutered. It boggles the mind that guitar volume would be an issue in a 20,000 seater. Ugh.

No matter how expensive your ear plugs are, if you are getting hit with sound waves loud enough they will penetrate anyone’s headspace resulting in inner ear damage. So says I, the Untrained Nose…. 🌠❤‍🔥🌠 Stay safe good people

LOL I have jammed with Motorhead and Blue Oyster Cult and that is the absolute loudest shit ever--- dumb not to use hearing protection.. just did not even know better....

All I ever do is play at jam sessions or sit in with other bands. I'm overly conscious of blasting too loud and getting the band busted out of their gig. Consequently, I can never hear myself enough to play well.

This subject has been on my mind of late. I love music at fairly loud levels, but I've been to some club shows and even one major concert (Hank Williams Jr's Rowdy Friends Tour) where the volume level was actually uncomfortable for me. Guitar has to be loud to get through the mix most times, but too much of it can ruin things sonically for me.

David, back up from the mic!.

Sad to see that the only discussion of actual decibels/ SPL levels was David mentioning this about his home studio or practice and not about volume on stage. Loud really means nothing if you don't actually quantify it. Also using a db app on your phone is terribly inaccurate at louder volumes as the microphone on a phone has a limiter on it so there is no way to get an accurate reading at higher volumes. You need a real dedicated db meter.

Kinda like having a virtual audience imo…it’s ok and better than nothing but not the same as playing to live and loud audience. Other analogies are possible 😉👍

Speak up, sonny. I got an AC30 hissing right next to me.

They need to play this to sound tech students on the syllabus at uni, and get them on the same page for old school bands.

Whenever I see these guys, I always want to sit up close to see the playing, but that means that I've now had tinnitus for years and have to wear various high tech ear plugs. Have to learn to sit further back, lol

My favorite verse in the Bible is Psalms 33 verse 3: Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise. The main idea isn't loud, but "skillfully". If you don't have enough skill to play loud musically, without being totally unbearable, DON'T play loud.

Volume aside, when I play more that one amp at once it can be problematic, because “which amp am I playing?” It can feel like my attention is divided. Clearly people get great results, but when I see Joe B and 5+ amps, I don’t get it. That said, blending a Hiwatt and a Marshall type gainy amp is pretty killer

It's too loud when someone who doesn't want to hear it is forced to hear it.

I saw Matt in Basel at a small gig. He had his TwoRock. Tone was delicious. Volume was perfect. I would guess around 95db were I was sitting.

What? Say that again. Hey, can ya speak up please mate!

My faves all in one place. Unbelievable players and great people. Love the shirt, Matt-my first ZZ Top album back in the day! Go to a gig with players with different levels of gear quality. Bad equipment loud is painful. Good equipment and good players loud sounds great and somehow doesn’t hurt like the shrill stuff. And like David says, without loud, there can’t be wide dynamics. Thanks, Jeff.

2 50 watt combos are the best all around rig

WHAT? I'm 63. Drummer.

Too loud for the crowd (Venom) or Everything louder than everything else (Motörhead) or if you wann go deaf instantly Manowar😂😂😂

The disconnect of these guys between praising loud volume but then complaining about tinnitus/hearing loss or saying that they can’t hear the Who. Hey guys, maybe you’ve damaged your hearing by insisting that you need to loud to get your tooaannnn......

Noise cancelling tech works by playing a sound equally as loud as what it's cancelling. That's why it's hurting your ears.

Robin Trower is loud but his top end is not piercing at all. Absolutely amazing tone and feel live.

I have a great boutique 12 watt tube amp that, at full volume into its 10” speaker, is just right about four feet in front of it. I can get feedback on demand and turn down the guitar volume and clean it up. And still the sound man started complaining. I refuse to play there because of him. My biggest amp is a 1x12” combo with 35 watts, and I know how to set it up for bigger rooms, so it’s not painful, but it’s definitely comfortably loud enough to make the guitar sound good. The band has to sound cohesive and I don’t want to hurt my ears or anyone else’s, but the guitar needs some acoustic-coupling with the amp to sound right.

For me, there’s “comfortably” loud and painfully loud. At 59, if it’s loud and doesn’t hurt, I am staying. If it hurts, I’m out. This perspective is formed after over 40 years playing electric guitar in bands.

Getting the EQ to sit where it's most balanced in your ears requires that the amp be aimed at you. Perhaps a second (or event third amp) could deliver a similar experience to an audience. How can the artist hear what the audience hears so as they are each connected to the other? I have sent my guitar trough the PA (shared by the horns and vocalist) to gain some wider spread and tolerable balance (with having access to any sort of "sound guy"). For me, I need to hear the overall effort to feel connected with a performers - even when I know "my sound" is compromised. My biggest grip with a dedicated venue is the false reliance on not having to do a soundcheck. That sort of laziness never fails to dissappoint someone in the room.

Man using a loadbox for a full up Plexi, into power amps to chill the volume, then use Clearsonic shields. To get my sound, a Plexi JMP has to be up full. The loadbox/Van Halen/Bradshaw is how I tame the beast. Especially in ear monitors

Yea. I'm not to the point that I can really play all that loud, yet. Wayyyy too much string noise and any movement I make is amplified 100x so I've got stuff to work on, still. I can turn it up somewhat loud and I only play at home so it's not like I need to turn it up. I still do crank it up every now and then just for fun 😁 Back to the Future, anyone?? 🤣 I've wanted to be Marty McFly since the first time I watched BTTF 👌

If it's too loud, you've either: - gotten too old or - not drunk enough

I saw Dick Dale in Bakersfield, CA and had front stage seats. Even with earplugs it was ridiculous and uncomfortable.

I hosted a Brian Setzer clinic at Guitar Center Hollywood in 1997 and he had 3 Bassman heads & 2x12’s cranked way up and between the amps and his brilliant playing on the Gretsch and my ears were toast after about 20 min. Had my ears ringing for days. That and the Smashing Pumpkins at the forum at the height of their fame and had to leave about an hour in, it was so painful. Oh! And The Who at the forum doing Quadraphenia and fucking hell they were loud!

Great discussion!! Played in hard rock 3pc band in late 70s.100watt superlead full stack for 2 years. After that, got more quiet. 50 watt superlead with a 4x12. Still play. I'm 64. Sometimes I I have a hard time hearing..partly age, mostly from loud amps.

Thanks for the video! The issue I have with many venues today is volume. Always gigged with 50 watt amps and up when I was a kid but now it is forbidden. I hate it. I use the dynamics of my gear to make my music and smaller wattage amps just don’t respond the same. Even with overdrive pedals, I can’t get what I get from my amps being pushed. I had a guy tell me I was too loud and the. I heard back the audio from audience perspective and sound board and all you can hear was kick, bass and vocals. Guitars were somewhat there. Pretty ridiculous.

The loudest sound you can hear is 'SILENCE'. I worked in computer rooms at large data centers. Back in the day when everything was in one room, tape drives, printers, and blazers (giant air conditioners) 8-12hrs a day. Once in the middle of the day, there was a power out. Everything went down and the SILENCE was defining. You could feel the weight of it. Plus my wife was always complaining that I talked too loud. I didn't notice it and neither did anyone that worked in that environment. You had to raise your voice just to be heard in the middle of all that equipment humming. It still haunts me to this day. I worked in data centers for 38yrs. And at 71yrs of age, I still speak loudly. In my youth, I played Guitar and Bass in rock bands. We were never too loud as far as we were concerned. LOL!

Really interesting. I play in a local cover band. Been together a year, first real band. And played a couple festivals and got the, keep your stage volume down, I'll control what the audience here's. Trouble has been, once we got going all I could hear was vocals through monitors and drums. At one point a couple weeks ago a had to go stand in front of my amp. That said, watching videos friends recorded on phones, sound was pretty good.

Thanks be, I will never have to worry about this problem. I played a church basement, an elementary school gym, back in ‘65, we had 3 guitars, a Princeton and one guy’s dad’s movie projector that had a little speaker in it… phew! Nobody even mentioned the volumes cuz the guy beating his little Ludwig snare made all the noise. Still, it’s interesting to hear this chat, thanks.

Loudest concert I've been to? Probably Tesla at the New Daisy Theatre in Memphis. Frank Hannon had a full Marshall stack, and that was too much for the room size - so the PA was brought up to match, I assume. Luckily, I had my ER-15 molded musician plugs with me. Otherwise, I think I would have had to leave to save my ears. It was OSHA-emergency loud!

One of the loudest things I've encountered was screaming at a Justin Bieber concert I took my daughter to years ago. Thousands of screaming teens - like a Eurofighter doing an airshow fly past but worse

David Grissom could have been cast as older Ross on Friends....if Ross was supposed to be chill and cool.

Im an old punk rocker I like the music to not only to be loud but so loud it physically knocks you in the chest and moves you backwards … Johnny Ramone probably wouldn’t have been a good person for this panel .. but interesting video

Actually got asked to turn up by the sound guy at my last gig, unfortunately just before we started playing, AFTER the soundcheck. Couldn't hear a damned thing other than my cab and the snare - that was fun.

Enjoyed this very much. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and experiences.

Want to know loud? My ears hurt worse being a teacher than gigging. But I've never played anything big.

Love this!

I'm sure Dick Dale would wring out a twin. I only ever used 1 twin on about 4. early 2000's.

I gig with a Mesa 25w 1-12 and only have issues NOT hearing it at outdoor shows.

33:55 Allman Brothers, eh? I've heard Jack Pearson tell the story of how he had to leave that gig because his ears just couldn't take it. That's _gotta_ be "too loud"! Fascinating the phases through which the conversation moved - from initial assertions that "I can play louder!", to considering all the spaces and ways in which sound can be surprisingly oppressive (or NOT, in the case of The Who!). Was great to listen in. While I'm at it, a couple of loud stories of my own: As a teenager in the 70s, my brother took me to an Eric Clapton concert in Toronto (the 461 Ocean Blvd tour). We were sat in "Row J" (so 10 rows back from the stage) in a ~14,000 seater arena. I remember in particular the extended outro to "Let It Grow" - it felt like the music was physically washing over me. My ears rang for three days after that one. I've never had quite that experience again, but at a nephew's wedding just pre-COVID, the band at the reception (good covers band) was LOUD. A pretty big function room, and from a good 100' away, my SPL meter on my phone was ticking at 110db. Couldn't stay in that room very long without pain! Definitely not "good loud"! Anyway, thanks for the chat - appreciated it.

I like loud when it’s used to get that certain tone. It’s the constant piercing ice pick that’s tough to handle. But the tastefully loud with “brown” treble I love. I did see Eric Johnson in an old theatre in Bloomington, Illinois and he was beautifully loud.

It's funny he mentions Eddie. Ed talked in interviews about in the early days, how almost every bar they played on the strip would yell at him to turn down the plexi, which he absolutely refused to do.

Pete Townsend has compared his tinnitus to having a vacuum cleaner next to his ears.

Just got home from a gig on an outdoor stage. I turned up nicely but maybe too much.. no time for elaborate Mon mixes and we were off - couldn't hear enough of anyone else to be subtle in my playing. As we only play bars we're not used to asking for things in the monitors. Lesson learned

I liked the days of no mics to backline. No monitors . Nothing. It worked.

🎯

Super interesting and important topic. Lot’s of great insight. I’ve never played on a big stage just small clubs. I am a hobby intermediate player. I would love to hear more about this. Pa volume vs stage volume. What is necessary to keep up with un drummer. What is loud in db terms on stage. What is the point of player using several 100w amp on stage if 1 alone blows you away. Why then hiding them in the basement. Why not just having less. Lot’s of questions at least for me.

It’s about the lowest volume in your dynamic range being audible.

Magic Slim rip. Seen BB KING. LOUD...😊

Hearing protection is required before it gets uncomfortable

Great topic, I gigged a lot in the late seventies and early eighties when playing loud was almost a demand. I always used 100 watt Marshall’s turned way up. So did the other guitarist. Pub gigs had a lot of natural soak and somehow it would get absorbed. My ears have paid the price but that era was some of the best band music ever played and as a rock guitarist the mist fun you could ever have. The other thing was the PA speakers and monitors were not as . efficient as FOH technology today. That made a huge difference with stage volume

I also use a db meter on my phone. I find 75 to 82 or 3 is fine for listening. I tested louder but it's not necessary to hear all the details and dynamics i love so much.

I always knew how the gig was going to go and how much we'd be shorted when the bar manager would stick his head into, say the seperate room with a stage in it, and yell at us to turn it down. As though they didn't notice from our demo and the equipment we brought in that we were a rock band.

Sure do appreciate this discussion. It really helps to get an understanding of how loud the amp and cabinet are to get the killer tones. I thought David’s comment about how it feels under your hands is spot on. Responsiveness. Ironically, I got my tinnitus when I started using in-ears and got a blast from a late addition to the mix. It’s an immediate tragedy. Thanks for putting this one together Jeff!

When you have to scream in someone’s ear, and they still ask…what!?

lots of truth spoken here.. Let's hope this trend of no amps on stage and in ears dies soon

I though it was just me Im not sure if I even like playing out anymore lol

If players like you won't take the lead in this modern world of 'not ear splittingly loud', we are lost.

Saw Johnny Winter. front table in front of stage..🤯

Please check out Liam Boehm online. He has help for tinnitus sufferers. You guys using in ear buds, sitting in front of blue-light screens, maybe diet issues that you are unaware of, alcohol, caffeine…. These are all MAJOR contributing factors to T. Working on reducing all these items listed will at least reduce the T level. Rock on friends. Sx🎸

Guthrie Govan is gigging with an FM9.

I pretty much always wear earplugs when I listen to live music. Turning down isn’t the answer…it doesn’t feel right for anybody. It just doesn’t work. Bonamassa at the Ryman was one of the concerts that didn’t need the plugs. It was fine.

Lil ed and the blues imperials. All good loud

lets suck all the soul and joy out of playing lol

So great ! The cool cats !

Was going to say it, then Matt did: robben ford loudest onstage tone I've ever experienced - real punch in the gut visceral volume

Great show and great info. Thanks to all.

No such thing. Loud is good do it loud all the timez

i mean--kinda ironic DG talking about this subject when his own mic is WAY too loud! lol or whatever is wrong...i know Jeff, u, disclaimed this at the top but still--pretty tough to listen to--shame. Love all three of you guys! saw dave with carter arrington (world's greatest little-known player) a couple times and josh smith once at the Saxon Pub in ATX and the sound was pretty great at each of those shows--lots of dynamics!