Do cruisers need "fast catamarans"? Let us look at some real-world data from the ARC results. I've compiled data from 2016-2019 ARC crossings comparing crossing times for the catamaran classes.
A bigger/longer boat necessary to achieve similar passage times also has a higher total cost of ownership. Bigger boats require bigger sails, bigger hardware, etc. They also command a higher price for marina dockage, haul-outs, etc. One of the most important factors your ARC data does not provide is the number of hours each cat ran their engines in total during the passage. Owners of heavy displacement cats tend to tun their engines far more to not only maintain decent speeds but also to sail at better angles which the performance cats achieve through design and boards. All of this is especially true during light winds days which is where the light displacement cats really shine vs the heavier comfort cats.
I’ve watched this video 3-4 times. I love it and thanks so much for taking the time to do such a thorough analytical analysis. That takes time and you delivered the information really well. I would agree with some of the comments on exclusion of Marsaudon, upwind comparisons etc. I would love to see more videos like this. ***I think a really good test would be running some different brands through Predict Wind (with accurate polars maybe putting a blanket 30% reduction up and downwind) and a known difficult forecast. Say on day 5 a storm approaches from somewhere and see where the routing takes faster boats and what they experience compared to others. Especially with regard to wave height and angle which is what will get you.
Hi Riley, I'm flattered that you even commented. Thank you for your interest. There are a lot of valid opinions out there. I had started down the road of polars when I first did this and, at least for me, finding accurate polar diagrams became a dead-end. It seems when you do find a polar, most of the time it's a calculated value rather than a real use generated plot. To your point, the sea state makes a big difference. Also, how boats are rigged and sailed greatly impacts things like pointing angle too as you know. For example: I know our 150 genoa starts to lose a lot of pointing when rolled more than say, 10%. So with the wind over 15kts we are reefed heavily and pointing goes from ~35 degrees to ~45 degrees due to the lousy sail shape and the tracks not being in ideal locations. I don't think most cruisers have a full suite of sails for every occasion and suffer compromises to ideal performance. I still think it's a valid and worthy experiment if more than a few good polars could be sourced for different yachts. I like your idea of finding a storm path. I reverted back to trying to find large volumes of data so the sample size would be large to even these boat variations out. I took the upwind argument to heart and started thinking about using some of the ARC data from something like the Carib1500 where the boats would have to deal with at least beam reaching if not a proper close haul. Alas, boat projects, day jobs, and kids' obligations got in the way. You may have sparked my interest to do some more calculations. Congratulations on the new baby by the way!
@@SVBelleandBeast your biggest mistake was not considering captain and sailor experience into your data. at the end of the day, that is really all that matters. Most people want to buy a fast cat because they think its a dick swinging competition. Your data shows this. In a world where a Lagoon620 is mentioned in the same regard as a outremer5x isn't proof of this, I don't know what is.
Great comparison, good job. Want to add a few thing though. The fact that its a downwind course might bring different boats closer together, where if they had to go upwind as well, daggerboard cats would have a further advantage. IMO its not just the speed that counts but the way the boat handles at sea (i know its qualitative...), since you don't HAVE to go somewhere (i mean noone actually needs a catamaran, or even a sailboat for that matter), the journey is the destination. If you want a fast, sporty boat then the sailing experience, boat performance is all you need (given that minimum comfort requirements are met), and if you wanna be comfortable in a luxurious floating container and go places, then performance doesn't mater at all (given that you can actually get somewhere eventually).
Depending on the application, those floating containers can’t out maneuver foul weather where the performance cats can. So for sure, it’s nice to have complete luxury at harbor, but if you capsize while getting to a place.... doesn’t matter how nice if it’s on the sea bed, maybe with you in it too. If you only want to charter a region, go big n slow. If you ever plan on an ocean crossing, go for at least 12kn-15kn cruising speed, not the 5-8kn....
I like that you are trying to put real world results in perspective. I also understand how speed is mostly waterline length, but it looks to me like you have a conclusion you are working to justify. I think that your analysis is already skewed by only using the ARC which is the most reliably downwind trips there is. ANY boat can be blown downwind. If that is your measure then save a pile of money by getting a light long monohull. The real difference in performance for Cats is upwind, and it is huge! I understand that cruising is mostly down wind but that is overlooking the lost time stuck in anchorages or worse, expensive marinas you don't want to be in while you wait for the wind to go your way. Those performance cats make a lot more sense upwind with twice the VMG while the condo-cats struggle to tack through 130 deg.
My man. Thank you so much. I was about to delve into my spreadsheets, as I love; however, you have saved me so much time and cruncing. Thank you so much!
He also negates pointing ability, fuel burn, maintenance cost and construction quality. All area's in which performance cats tend to excel. Don't get me wrong it's still a good analysis (and an excellent tool for shooting down any idiots that claim their performance cat is 2 or three times faster than a cruising cat) but it's far from complete and the data is more or less a best case for cruising cats.
Don't forget to factor in hours of motoring . Case ARC 2019 : TS5 arrives 1st with 0 hours motoring followed by TS42 (only 42 ft long!) also with 0 hours . A full 5 (more than 45 % !)days after the TS5 , the first group of "production cruising cats' (mainly Lagoons + 1 Bali) finish with respectively 13 , 4 , 23 and 31 hours of motoring . With motoring outlawed , surely the diff with the top 2 would have been greater . There is truth to the statement that these floating condo's do not sail well in light winds and charter boats in the Carribean motor a lot of the time
There's a lot of problems with this video. It completely ignores that we have no way of knowing what was done to prepare these boats, what kind of diets the lagoons had to go on, motoring, like you mention. It also seems to ignore that the lagoons that finished up there with the fast cats were 10+ feet longer, despite acknowledging that length makes a big difference. I mean, I'm not interested in getting a TS, or a dazcat. The TS5 can fly a hull in 15 kt of wind (according to the designer), and I'm not really interested in that, but I do want decent performance. I want to be able to sail in the lightest wind possible so I can avoid motoring. But I am also willing to sacrifice walk around island berths and a sitting room in the hull. The entire argument of performance cat vs "condomaran" is just silly. The best cat you can buy is the one you enjoy being on. Whether that means skinny flying hulls with daggerboards and barely enough provisions for the weekend, or king size island beds, full, solid wood interior, and 4 months of provisions, is entirely up to you.
@@FranFerioli And this year's ARC 2021 results confirm their utter superiorty , taking 1st multihull cruising place with a TS5 only one hour behind a full carbon 80 ft IMOCA inspired racing monohull that took overall line honours. 2nd also a TS42 and third by absolute time a TS5 (4th by handicap) . First Outremer (a 51) only showed up 3 days later.
@@gerritgovaerts8443 I sailed on a TS5 once. It has all that is needed for confort if not for luxury. The main problem is the raw power. I think I will never have the confidence to take one of these boats to the sea.
For what I’ve read and seen in videos your point is precisely why many sailors choose fast performance multihulls, they can sail with minimum wind while other boats have to motor and also the ability to outrun a storm. Sailing condos are great if you want lots of room and are planning on island hoping, if you want to be able to cross oceans you need a faster more seaworthy boat
Thanks for the data crunch. I appreciate that you took the time to tackle a subject most marketing divisions probably hope no one would. In light of the extensive time at anchor the extra space would be valuable, especially with guests or a family.
Thanks for this analysis. Two comments: 1- it was a mistake to exclude the Marsaudon (TS42 and TS5). They are cruising catamarans designed to be fast, and yet less expensive than Outremer. 2-Spending more on length rather than performance: this is not the trade off. The Marsaudon are both faster AND cheaper than most catamarans for same length. The reason is basically that to gain in performance, you typically remove amenities to make it lighter. And removing amenities tends to make them cheaper. So forego heavy wooden fittings or air conditioning, and you'll get there. In my experience, a fast boat brings three kinds of benefits: 1- fun. It's much more fun to sail fast. 2- safety: going fast means you can better move away from a nasty weather patterns or beat a current. 3- comfort. Yes! Because you will sail more and motor less. IMHO sailing under engine is really uncomfortable, because of smell and noise. Not to mention that being fast, you'll be first at the mooring or marina and get the easier and better spots. So you *need* a fast cat? Obviously no. But do you *want* one (for good reasons)? Probably yes. You don't even have to pay more.
This is the best critique of the analysis. It is especially true because the Title "How much faster are performance catamarans?" can not be fairly answered by eliminating designs that emphasize performance. If some boats are going to be eliminated by price [which is reasonable] then don't make it arbitrary. Set a price cap and eliminate luxury boats that exceed the cap. Maybe a graph of crossing time vs list price would also be enlightening. If he's going to arbitrarily weigh overloading against the performance cats, the luxury boats are very easily overloaded also. It is not unusual for a mono of equal living volume to sail better once cruising stores, tools and spares are included.
Excellent video ! Love the stats & the way you give us a tool to model personal needs ! I’ll be in the renting a hoby cat/kite surf group and have a dishwasher ;)
Any leaf may be blown across the pond downwind but the advantage of performance Cats is to windward. Ok, no cruiser wants to make long passages upwind (& into head seas) but daggerboards also limit slip to leeward, thereby alloying broader angles to windward to hold the same course. Run your comparison again with beam or head seas for results that matter - when it matters.
Excellent information. Well layer out. Really appreciate it! Have sailed my monos tens of thousands of miles. Don’t have a multi for only one reason. Can’t afford it. But I can appreciate them. I have seen some videos of lagoon 38 cranking out 14-16 kts. In heavy weather. Impressive.
The major flaw with this analysis is it only considers long downwind passages in tradewinds (very beneficial for your typical cruising cat). The real advantage of daggerboard cats is the ability to properly sail upwind (and have fun doing it), sail in lightwind conditions (where you'd be motoring in a lagoon) and use less diesel. Not to mention the ability to outrun storms and unfavourable weather.
No one does a lot of upwind sailing, most people do trade wind sailing, so makes sense to get a boat in that environment. And most boats spend 90% of time at anchor, so once again, one should be looking at a boat that’s comfortable at that.
We are buying a liveaboard next year and have basically discounted the floating caravans. Firstly we are a couple and have no need of the massive size that even a Lagoon 42 gives you. The most voluminous things we're taking are bikes (and turbo trainer for long passages). For us the ability to sail in light air, plus the much bigger performance envelope is a big advantage. If needed you can get 20kn comfortably in the right breeze to get out of the way of something or get somewhere in a hurry. We're probably getting a 42-44ft performance based boat, foam cored epoxy so it's stiff, nothing squeaks, sails beautifully and will still be sailing down to about 3-4kn of wind. The other thing that I think you misunderstand is that a lighter faster boat makes it's 'own motion' to an extent, you are less like a cork bobbing on the waves. The lightness is a big advantage in having a more pleasant motion, and the the responsiveness allows you to steer as a function of waves which also also helps. If however you're planning to bob around the US east coast and Caribbean with 3 visiting couples then maybe a floating caravan is the right choice.
If you want to sail, buy a light fast catamaran and add all the comforts that you need. Daggerboards and narrow hulls are a must for those who want a sailing experience! If you want a slow moving hotel on the water you can skip those. Speed is important to me, especially for blue water cruising.
I like having a fast (non production) cat for it's ability to sail in light wind. I really dislike motoring. I'm not really a fan of the ARC data. Some people treat it as a race, some people are just cruising. Some have full crews, some are just couples. Some will motor when the wind drops, some will persevere with sailing. If you want to really compare sailing performance look at proper race results.
Great video and thanks for the analysis. However there is only so much that can be learned from the figures and some of the comments address this. In my humble opinion as an owner of a racer/cruiser catamaran and as a multihull sailor for 25 years with experience on racers and cruisers alike, I would say that there are no advantages to a Lagoon type catamaran when compared to a performance one, unless having a large walkin bathroom is of paramount importance. Using the trans atlantic ARC as the basis for comparison is a great first step given the availability of data, but is not typical of overall cruising conditions. Trade winds are mostly predictable and reliable with good wind strengths. Almost any catamaran including the heavy bridgedeck types (Lagoon, Leopard, FP,) can perform well and sail fast in strong winds, however as we all know and have experienced, light winds are more common and it is in these conditions that the real benefit of a performance catamaran is shown. Most catamaran cruisers I have spoken to would turn on the engines when the sailing speed falls below 6 knots. This translates to anout 10 knots true. A good performance catamaran will sail close to or exceed true windspeed, therefore when the Lagoon is motoring along at 6knots we are sailing at 10 knots. A counter to this point is that typically 80% of a cruisers life is at anchor, so if you are happy to put up with a great deal more motoring and a less than exciting sailing experience then it doesn’t matter which thoe you choose, so long as it is a catamaran !
Another example of "I'm old and have done the same thing for a long time so I know best". Taking 1 min to type this out, "I would say that there are no advantages to a Lagoon type catamaran when compared to a performance one" 1. Larger, heavier dinghy for water sports and activities. 2. Larger carry capacity for toys for people who couldn't care less about sailing. 3. a more comprehensive tools and spare parts kit so your speedy sailing doesn't take you around the anchorage scabbing tools off others and being a liability to others. 4. Larger medical treatment setup for remote cruising. 5. Larger water maker, water storage, lithium banks, solar systems etc to be totally self sufficient and autonomous in true remote areas while not having to worry about utilities usage. You aren't thinking very hard.
@@trentspencer7991 I agree with you that there are absolutely some big advantages to big heavy condo catamarans, but the video totally misses out on the real reason for having a performance catamaran…light wind performance. When you cherry pick data, it’s pretty easy to make a case for whatever point you are trying to make.
I wonder what the data would look like if you looked at crossings where you may be heading against the prevailing winds? Might the improved pointing ability of performance oriented cats make a much bigger difference?
Just don't go that direction, or wait until the wind blows there. Get yourself a collection of big light wind sails. Anchor the boat in a safe harbor on days there is a strong blow.
Any boat can cross the Atlantic West to East. Going the other way is completely different. Whilst anchored in Horta, Azores last summer, about a hundred boats came in. Hardly any production catamarans. May be a couple of Lagoons. Their passage times were poor compared to similar sized monohulls. They don’t sail well in light winds or head winds. Most make the crossing East to West on a ship.
Great video!.... I had a 35foot offshore boat with twin 454... did only 65mph... but... we were in this really big bay and water was like glass... a 20+ foot bass boat flew by us and my girlfriend at the time started joking to me... I said "look out there beyond the bay... those are 3-4ft white caps"... as both boats hit the waves we passed that bass boat like it was standing still for it was getting beat up by the waves... length is King... I'm looking 50ft+ .... thanks again for the awesome video... I love stats!!!!
Interesting logic to exclude performance cats from the analysis of the performance cats. Btw 2 days on the 18-19 days passage is a difference not to be underestimated in terms of possibility to dodge the weather. Overall it seems that 50 feet is the actual divider. The rest is a personal preference
Very interesting and well done technical analysis! However, we don't agree with the conclusion that 2 days difference on a short ocean crossing is not important. To be 30% faster all the time when you sail long distances is important. On BioTrek, a 5x, we have now 9000 nm in less than a year. For around-the-word sailing, our plan, say 30,000 miles, then based on your statistics we would spend 125 days at sea versus 198 days at sea for the "slightly slower" boat. That means we have 73 more days to enjoy the destination and less "at risk" at sea time. We find ourselves sailing upwind more than we would wish, so dagger boards are a must for us.
So if I have a comfortable ..luxury 60 ft. Privilege.. My guests and I cannot enjoy the crossing..like a cruise ship passenger...seriously? We can...and we do..
@@guenthermichaels5303 you can, but then you also play with statistics and probability. Rogue waves are... rogue. The less time in the beautiful, yet uncaring, ocean the safer you are no matter the vessel.
Great video, thanks. The reason I was thinking of a performance craft was to be able to sail nicely in light winds. Heavily laden comfy cats motor sail everywhere due to light winds.
Another point that is entirely missed in this analysis is the comparison with monohulls . If you take the ARC 2019 results again , then you can clearly see that the fastest monohulls made the journey just as fast as the fastest non-performance production cats . So , only performance cats were actually faster than the mono's . This is entirely understandable if you know the original design philosophy behind cats (and tri's) :as stability is now derived from the buoyancy of the outrigger hulls , you can get rid of the heavy keel and its surface drag , reducing draggy wetted area. Secundo ,the limiting factor on monohull performance is "max hull speed" caused by bow wave drag (1.34 * square root(waterline length)). Cats avoid this bow wave drag if the finesse of the hulls is higher than 12/1(length/hull beam ratio) and thus do not run into a stone wall of max hull speed (comparable to the sound barrier for planes). For this they need very narrow hulls and give up some volume there. All true performance cats (DazCat , Ocean Rider Catamarans , Gunboat , and Outremer) have this feature . Production cats not so much ; they range between 8/1 to 10/1 and will still suffer from bow wave drag to a certain extent due to their wide hulls . On top of that , they are way heavier than performance cats with a higher wettted draggy surface area as a result . All that combined makes them nearly just as slow than a good mono design . They miss the point of proper cat design entirely : reducing weight for less draggy wetted area and avoiding bow wave drag . I just can't see a proper application for a heavy bulky cat . If carrying a lot of stuff (cargo) is your goal , buy a monohull (and for the same price as an average production cat , you can buy a much larger monohull) . After all , you don't see cats carrying containers or bulk goods like grain or oil around the world's ocean : a displacement monohull is much better suited for that application . If speed and fun of sailing , then a performance cat or even better , a trimaran . A heavy bulky production cat is fish nor flesh as they say in Dutch . Ask every naval architect what the number 1 enemy is in cat design and the answer is always WEIGHT ! Heavy cats make no sense , they run counter to the design goal of a cat
Good video, you make your point, but under limited conditions. The ARC and the trade winds as you state are basically all downwind. The point here is then is in downwind sailing hull length is absolutely the prime factor. (I've been doing this for almost 20 years and I have to keep being reminded of this.) Hull length is destiny - downwind. As soon as you turn into the wind cats with keel-ettes stop sailing and the monohulls beat them, but the cats with daggerboards are also still sailing. I've ordered a performance cat, Seawind 1600. Yep, the hype is speed, but the two key selling points for a performance cat are light wind sailing - are you sailing or motoring at 5-8 knots? -- and pointing into the wind. These two factors would make a great video. How close to the wind can each model cat sail? and What's the lightest wind with a spinnaker and what percentage of that wind velocity can the boat sail? (And of course what percentage of sailing are these two conditions? Don't know how you'd do the numbers for that.) Yep, they advertize performance cats on speed. The lightship polars for the boat I've ordered are almost in Mach numbers they're so high. They did send me heavyship polars. That ~20 knot top speed gets chopped right down, but at 5 and 10 knots the velocities don't change much. (And I've been on one in 8 knots of wind doing 6 knots..I can look up my notes.) For my ASA 106, on a Jeanneau 40- no slouch - we sailed for 15 minutes, over three days. The rest of the time we motored. My throat was sore because we spent that three days talking over the engine. Boats are great, I love the sea, but that's not sailing. Giving up comfort for speed? I did think the Outremer 45 was kind of snug inside. So it's not comfort that I'm giving up, it's the money I'm paying for a much bigger narrow boat.
It is based on a bad data sample! The underlying assumption is that ARC participants are pushing their boats to go as fast as possible, AND THEY ARE NOT. You're comparing some boats/crews pushing for 99% of top performance, with other boats/crews happy with 66% performance.
@@unclehud5033I disagree. He's talking about the boat needs of cruisers and he's using a dataset from ocean crossings. A data set from just people who were trying to get 99% out of the boats would have been less relevant to his question than the dataset that he used.
I commend you for finding this data set and bringing a quantitative approach to comparing the boats. I really like your conclusions. Your way of dealing with different years is simple and reasonable. I do have a few suggestions on your analysis. Rather than plotting length as a function of days, I suggest interchanging the variables. Days should be on the vertical axis and should be the dependent variable of the trend line, since length is a cause of days rather than the other way around. I also suggest using a multiple regression (rather than the univariate trend lines) where you could add dummies for the boat brand and even account for year in the model.
The correct method is to review the error (R squared) for each boat off the trend line. Then also realize that a 3 week passage probably means extra supplies and more crew than normal. As you said, this will result in a bigger penalty for light displacement yachts which are sensitive to overloading.
TS42 too bespoke? It's a production cruising catamaran, albeit with a less luxurious finish than some. You've manipulated the data to suit your conclusion.
Very interesting analysis..Its hard to find real data on cats..so this is terrific work. It would be good to add a price factor in your calculations..Faster not only gives you less live aboard space but it also costs a lot more. That 5X (59 ft boat) from BioTrek is almost $2 million. For that money, the better boat would be A similar size Catana..You get the performance and the comfort. At least for my money. By the way..both " Great Circle " and " BioTrek " and the "Bali" (made by Catana, very impressive boat ) have RU-vid channels And their Atlantic crossing is fully documented on video. BioTrek has a very competitive and accomplished crew. You'll see videos of their shake down sail in the Med when they took delivery. They were hitting the mid 20's in heavy waves.. Cheers from Toronto
Life changing video... I want to see another route for comparison... Please and thank you for this. Also, Value of the boat as a factor maybe? Then you have a new scale of evaluating them to present to the world!
Just noticed your post. Nothing new about longer boats being faster than the smaller ones. Speed comes from the power to weight ratio. A heavy longer cat can be outperformed by a lighter shorter cat. Speed can enable passages between unfavourablre weather systems. A boat without boards may not be able to beat off a lee shore. Space is a subjective criteria. The disadvantage of space is that it all requires upkeep which takes time and money. Usually space comes with length, the bigger the boat the more weight and windage and extra crew. I’ve 50 years of multihull sailing, both ocean racing and international passages, and operated Australia’s first first multihull yacht brokerage. My advice is to acquire the smallest boat that will do the job rather than the biggest boat you can fit in your budget. I own a 60’ (18 metre) former ocean racer that provides commercial cruises. My family boat is a 10 metre cat. We completed a half cirumnavigation of Australia with 5 onboard. It does mean that there’s a place for everything and everything in its place. It’s a doddle two handed. I have learnt a few things along the way. No.1 is to own the smallest boat you can comfortably make do with rather than the biggest boat you can get. No.2 although there's nothing like messing around in boats, there's nothing like minimal messing around in a boat. No. 3 when the going gets tough at sea there's nothing beats having confidence in your boat. No. 4 the combination of lightweight and strength is essential for safe payload and joyous, effortless performance (not having to drag a prop adds to that) No 5 a boat that performs on all points especially upwind (big daggerboards and tacks like a keelboat), has great living space is rare No 6 a cutter rig brings extra security to the rig, produces impressive power with low centre of effort when two- headsail reaching. In heavy weather it brings easier and safer sail handling by keeping humans off the bow together with a well balanced helm by keeping fore and aft sail areas close together. Daily averages a safe 200nm (routinely achieves double digits. Best speed fully laden 18 knots. No. 7 Self draining, combined sail and anchor locker in the centre of the boat keeps the interior of the boat dry and that weight in the best place. No 8 Centrally located engine, fuel and water storage puts that weight in the best place No. 9 Leading all sail controls to the cockpit and most within reach of the helm, means efficient and safest short-handed sailing No. 10 Bringing all of that together in a great looking, spacious boat is a feat. Having it in a truly professional build and owning it, is the ultimate. All the above achieved in 10 metres containing 2 double cabins, ! single cabin and a navigators berth with dedicated navigatorium. Bathroom contains toilet and shower with hot water. Saloon seats 6. Galley has 2 burner stove and oven. A refrigerator and a freezer. Single bowl sink. Bows and sterns are sealed compartments. The bilges are sealed. Single engine, centrally located with retractable sail drive leg with big 3 bladed prop (7 knots calm conditions). Sail wardrobe: mainsail; screecher (furling); genoa( furler): hanked staysail and storm jib on a detachable inner forestay.
here are my experiences. I own Lagoon 400 and live on it. Boat is part of performance equation but not often mentioned part is the sailor. We are usually on pair with around 45 feet cats, sporty or not. After food is loaded sporty cats are not that sporty we found. We keep boat light and sails are trimmed well. In 30 k nm engines managed 1100 hrs each. So we sail a lot, sail off the anchor, anchor with sail etc. Mainly motor in places like Sydney harbour and around those mono beer can races to avoid collisions. Good code zero setup is essential for those
Are you sure the reason why you only do 10% of your sailing upwind isn’t because the Lagoon is poor at it? By comparison on our monohull we do a lot of sailing upwind simply because we can do it so efficiently
@@timevans8223 we sail australia and places are apart 60 nm. if one wants to daysail then has to keep typically 6 kn average. That is impossible upwind with our boat. Upwind passages I use 3kn directly upwind for planning. We always beat it. L400 sails well upwind. in 10 kn true we do 3kn VMG against wind fully loaded. This seem to be pretty high mark for most cruising cats, judging from experience.
But in 10kts the seas are low. In 15kts you will make very poor windward performance due to hull windage and lack of a deep keel. My previous two boats were catamarans.
You have confirmed the choice of my next home and it wasn’t even represented in those ARC’s. As they say, if there are just 2 boats in the water and heading in the same direction, there is a race.
Nice analysis! I think Marsaudon TS5 should be a valid contender in this comparison. It looks pretty livable, and it's a lot cheaper than an Outremer 5X
@@SVBelleandBeast Exterior: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-AhONwLWzIUc.html Interior: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-3B-2deUN2r0.html For me, I would like an analysis to ideally include price as a column in the comparisons. Price, Comfort & Performance balance.
I saw both the TS 50 (previous model) and TS 42 at the Charter company in Martinique. They are very low production boat (in numbers) and focus on speed. They are both live aboard capable with descent space and accommodation but on the minimaliste side. No nice wood trim here. I was told that the TS42 is easy to handle but the TS5 (50 feet) is handful and need an experience crew.
This is good information, but the real difference is in light wind performance. A very light performance cruising cat might never use their engines while the heavier boats are constantly running theirs. If the average trade wind speed is only 12 knots, a heavy, weighted down cat might be motor sailing a good percentage of the time, requiring more fuel, and in 3-5 knot winds, fully motoring, whereas some cats can do 1:1 in under 10 knots of wind. That’s why I’m building a light 50’ performance cruiser - not for speed across, but for sailing in all conditions.
Nice :) I like how you normalized the data. Very important! One minor point: independent variables (e.g. boat length) go on the x-axis and dependent variables (e.g. passage time) go on the y-axis
Comparing the ARC data is interesting and reveals some long held truths: A longer waterline is able to transfer more energy into forward motion and it typically will go faster over time. This is only one data point and doesn't include sailing skill, relative loading, motor use and is dead down hill. If we are honest, a nice log with enough waterline and sail area can go down wind. Where the performance boats really shine is in light air, and on all points of sail other than down wind. In a sailing utopia I would choose to only sail down wind but I don't live in that world. Sometimes you just gotta beam reach or tack to weather and this is where the performance cats with low windage, fine hulls, and retractible daggerboards really shine. In some cases a similar length performance cat can get you to your windward destination in 1/2 the time as a roomeran. Getting a windward passage over quickly has value. In heavy air with an approaching storm a performance cat can also outrun many deep low pressure systems and that adds a significant safety margin. These are the real reasons that some choose a light weight performance cat over a floating condo. Comparing similar waterline lengths a performance cat with fine entry hulls, low windage, and daggerboards will always be capable of outperforming a large, heavy, high windage boat, and when sailing to weather the performance cat may have as much as a 2/1 advantage. Cheers!
Thank you! Just found this. Genius work which is really appreciated compared to the marketing fluff out there. We know the direction where we’re going with a growing family and tons of shit 😂
awesome video.. thanks for taking your time. Do you think it's possible to build your own comparable to a katana or lagoon, similar size and performance for 1/2 the cost? with customizations, like door access to front seating area and more solar panel space? any suggestions on whom to talk to about this?
Thank you for the data crunching. This is really helpful for cat enthusiasts. This ARC data is mostly downwind or broad reaching. I wonder how much the data changes when the boat are close reaching or beating. I'm sure this is where the performance boat really shine and many fat cats just turn on the motor. Obviously cruising cats try not to beat much but sometimes you just have to go upwind.
Thank you. I used to sail a Hobie and yes we used to be going out when the monohull guys were coming in and the safety boat wouldn’t launch. I plan to get a cruising cat and can’t afford a so called high performance one and have never been convinced they are worth it... and yes I plan to get either an inflatable cat to mess around with once anchored or take an old Lazer on the deck. What so many monohull snobs and performance cat sailors seem to not get is a lot of cruisers/live aboards sail as a means to an end... not for pleasure. If I want fun sailing as I say I’ll take a dingy for the evenings or take up kite surfing. I want a floating condo and I am not ashamed to say so... I can’t imagine anything I want less than a monohull or a skittish and compromised on space cat that’s a little bit faster and sails to wind a little bit better... it’s not like I’m going to be tacking up a river... the need to sail to wind isn’t THAT important... and ok the high performance cat people will say it’s safer to be able to get out of trouble etc... well I will have two engines for getting out of trouble fast!
Nice analysis, although we can expect that owners of Outremers 5x (the performance version of the 50 ft) are also more keen to race their catamarans vs. the owners of Lagoons. My real concern is: can you really enjoy the sailing experience with newest production catamarans that are mostly designed to be chartered? My only experience is sailing with Lagoons and a modern 40 ft feels like a brick with sails. It hardly reached 7 knots on normal breeze (15 knots of wind), and its top speed registered was 8.7 knots under +25 knots of wind and two reefs on the main sail.
Nice to see the numbers organized in spread sheets, however as pointed out by others, how much motoring has been involved? This could also be reflected in the courses for the boats. You would probably see longer distance sailed by the fast cats as they normally do not go dead down wind thereby adding distance without motoring. Also the crew skills on each boat would wary vastly I believe and could be indicated that similar Lagoons do well and others at the back of the pack. I have raced daggerboard cats in West Australia where there are always rough seas and generally more than 20knots of breeze, the fast cats was also the most comfortable. My Belize 43 was safe and reasonable fast, but felt very safe when the going was rough, surfed her safely in 20 knots in 55 knots of downwind cruising with the genoa. However the upwind performance was sluggish until I got new better sails. Did not have a skreecher wich would have improved the reaching performance in light winds. Would be nice to have a comparison on cats that only sailed not used the motor(s). Good effort on putting the data together as you did.
A very interesting analysis. I am a theoretical physicist that has take all the useful math courses. In addition, I have done a many similar analysis of what I call apples, oranges, and pears. You can compare these things provided you use some of the analysis leveling techniques that you did. Great job of analysis, from a guy who has done a lot of analysis. The second point is that the US Navy has for a long time known the length of boat is the limiting factor for speed. For a given boat length you will get a geometric increase in power vs. speed. Then there is a practical maximum speed for a given length. Thus, no big surprise, the largest ships in volume are aircraft carriers, but they are also the longest ships in the navy. Again, no big surprise all the aircraft carriers speeds are classified information, BUT it is very well known that the aircraft carrier are easily the fastest ships in the navy. Why? The US Navy has even developed formula that approximates speed, horsepower and length. Thus your analysis point that a narrower cat is a bit faster, but not that much faster than the fat hulled boats holds high credibility from the US Navy POV. One of the most critical issues is the type of sails was not covered. For many years Dacron sails were hands down a clear speed advantage over cotton sails. Today, that speed nod goes to properly designed carbon fiber sails. Thus if you are up for the extra money, carbon fiber sails will make a stogy performing boat faster. From your analysis, take a long Lagoon say 60 ft. add better and more kinds of sails that are carbon fiber in the right places, then the spacious Lagoons look even better. The reason for this is the shape of the sail determines much of its power delivered. Flatter sails make much better "wings to fly." Lift is the term in wings, but sails are identical to wings on airplanes. Wing shape is a known critical factor since the 1930s when NASA tested airfoil shapes extensively. There has been no improvement in airfoils other than laminar flow wings. Another factor not in your analysis is mast height and the resulting increase in sail area. But there are significant limits to those tall masted boats. They are much harder to sail fast and keep upright. Thus, the issue of safety must also be considered. You did touch on this factor, but additional emphasis on safe design needs to be considered. The more sail area, and the higher it goes (faster winds are up higher), then the safety factor drops dramatically. Parallel to this safety issue is the skill requirements needed to sail safely. The performance boats require much better sailing skills. Again, a great analysis with very practical application. Thank you for a job well done.
You’ve done an excellent analysis of cats entering the ARC. But you’re data clearly shows a limited amount of yachts doing ocean crossings competitively. I feel most yachts in the US want to do a Carribbean circuit, but since the trade winds are invariably blowing towards the NW, they motor sail or tack incessantly. Under those circumstances, give me a cat that can work upwind comfortably and quick, or a fat bank account for diesel. So I’m still leaning toward a used 40 to 50 foot Catana.
Interesting video but I have to ask why not mention the main item people should focus on when looking for a cruising design to suit their needs and that’s safety. There’s so many nuances to this subject and it’s so relative to someone’s experience that it’s very hard to cover it in a video. Firstly go sail off a lee shore in heavy weather with a Lagoon and you’ll understand where I’m coming from! And why exclude the TS/ORC and Grainger both of which are very popular cruising designs? Grainger’s are everywhere in Australia and SE Asia! The main point of having a performance boat isn’t so you can go fast! It’s safety and so you can sail in light airs and when you consider most of the tropics and equatorial zones are very low wind and deep angles it makes so much more sense to have a boat that can sail during these moments in time. Trust me when it’s blowing 5kts and everyone else is motoring and you’re sailing you’ll be happy you didn’t get the condomaran and opted to forgo the extra space that no one ever uses, as people hardly come and visit you! We’ve spent over thirty years cruising everything from a ferro cement ketch, to super yachts and extreme performance multihulls and never once has there been complaints that we’re sailing too fast however there has always been times where we’ve wanted to sail in light airs. Performance isn’t only about sailing fast it’s about sailing well in all conditions. There’s also dangers to heavier displacement boats as they get caught out in weather as they’re at sea for longer periods of time and they also get over taken or broached by waves when the conditions are heavy. They pound as the bridge deck is lower and as they are heavier in displacement they put more loads on the structure when in heavier weather. If you’ve ever cruised light wind areas and not just trade wind areas you’ll know what I’m talking about it. Performance isn’t just about top end speed it’s about so so much more than that and in my thirty years of cruising and working on yachts I’ll always chose to cross and ocean on a performance design than a slow heavy condomaran. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and putting together all that data!
Hello, Thank you very much for this very interesting and very well documented video. I was wondering if you have any idea when it comes to sale upwind ? Thank you. L
"You're gonna need a bigger boat". I'm am floored that a Bali 5.4 (what I consider the ultimate condo-cat) made a passing among the fastest of all boats.
Great video. We very much came to a similar conclusion, longer is faster, and comfort to us is everything. (living on board for 12+ yrs) But we see a youtube trend towards "performance" and see people flip over backward to have that kind of boat. But knowing that we spend 80% of our time either at anchor or in a marina, it does not make sense to us to even look at a performance boat. To us livability and customization (making the living space we want ) is a top priority, and also the quality of details, and then the bigger the better..... that is..... over and above 70 ft it becomes difficult to maintain single-handed sailing.. And then when we possibly cross the Atlantic that one or two times in a lifetime... we may have more days of fun doing so in comfort vs someone with a spartan-like high-end performance boat that must be sailed on edge, with the constant risk of overpowering and breaking things. Meanwhile, we will enjoy it in all comfort and toast to the decision.
I marvel at anyone who would spend a million dollars to get across the ocean and then give any thought as to speed. If you want to cross the ocean fast buy a plane ticket..😄😄
Haha, thats an excellent point. Spend $1,5 million to cross in 4 weeks or $390 to cross in 4 hours on Delta. The cruisers/blue water sailors that I know are just enjoying the experience. They dont care too much about speed.
@@Alan62651 I can certainly understand the utility of speed in the context of weather management. Reminds me of a line from an old comedy "Kelly's Heros" from Donald sutherland's character Odd Ball. He said that he likes to think he can get out of trouble just as fast as he gets into it. From what I see on these vlogers who live the cruising life, they have become slaves to the high end weather forecasters and will simply not embark until the weather looks perfect. maybe that's not real cruising. WOuld be great to have both speed and accurate forecasting.
@@DontStopBrent Hi Brent. I do have a boat and did watch the video. Your point of asking eludes me though as my comments about speed and weather are actually independent of the video and apply to sailing in general. I too only sail in good weather and am a slave to forecasting.
Trimarans? I realise this video is about catamarans but since the focus is about comfort vs performance vs cost they're worth mentioning. The Neel 45 (sport version) crossed in 368hrs (15 days 8hrs) in the 2015 ARC. It's way cheaper than any of the cats in a similar performance category but also has more space - although not as much as a Lagoon/F Pajot. A Neel 47 was the fastest crossing in the ARC+ in 2019. I'm not a trimaran (or Neel) fanatic and there are some downsides to a trimaran vs catamaran but if you want space and performance without going big (and even more expensive) then they have to be considered.
IMHO sir, your premise is wrong. Long passages are not the biggest or most important reason for choosing a fast cat. Extended cruisers do a lot of day sailing where they leave a marina/anchorage by the sunrise and sail for another marina/anchorage to which they hope to reach before sunset. Faster the boat, farther you can aim for. Also a performance cat really makes a difference when reaching or beating in lighter winds. I don't think ARC crossings (downwind in moderate winds) are a good measure. Any boat will sail downwind in 15 knots of steady winds and with the help of a chute, make decent speed. As you put it nicely, not a whole lot of difference between an Outremer and Lagoon there. But an Outremer can sail and point high in winds as low as 4-5 knots whereas a Lagoon simply can't. For most cruisers, more often than not, there's not enough wind. That's where the choice for performance over space and comfort would pay off.
You should also look at the recent video by Riley of Sailing La Vagabonde who sail an O45 and the reply and input from catamaran impi who sail a lagoon 440 which they had substantially modified for blue water cruising.
At the end when you compare the layout of the Outremer and the Lagoon you put too much emphasis on beds. If you look to the cockpit, the galley and sitting area they are similar (the cockpit is even bigger on the Outremer). Yes, bedroom are smaller, but the rest is not to be overlooked.
Very helpful video, albeit limited by its data. I don't really agree with the conclusion that there is little time difference, it would add up if you were sailing a lot. I like how you bring up length and price might be a better criteria.
40,000nm in a Lagoon 400S2 and no regrets. 8 years out and 94% of the entire time I have been away from my home country my boat has been stopped. I have sailed with all the fast cats out there and big monos, the fact is we’re slower, no kidding, the other fact is my boat is paid for I’m out and I’m never that far behind. Full of water fuel and all my stuff, the only thing that would make a difference to me is waterline, the boats big enough and passages are delightful. Never underestimate a production cat, every dog has its day. I make 170nm in a fat production cat, a couple of 200nm days but only a couple. My mono friends are usually behind me. Love my production boat, Scott & Kat
Very interesting information with results I would never have expected. I'd be curious to know how motoring would impact the results. Lagoons in general are dogs on the water. I have a relatively slow and heavy production cruising cat (Leopard 45) and I can run circles around any Lagoon I've sailed with and can easily point 10% higher. So it begs the question about motoring. Most Lagoons I've sailed with end up motoring under 5 kts SOG while I won't and still end up beating them by a large margin on a long passages.
Late to the party: I fully agree. Arrive at destination mooring as tenth or twentieth boat with a relaxed family, kids has done all their homework while under passage, ready to go swimming or explore instantly, is way more value than just arrive with saltwater in everyone's underpants and three or four days schoolwork at destination.
So you buy a cat an a good seling point is the number of bathrooms and walk around beds? I will buy my cat for sailing fast and have fun doing that. Besides that I will follow the wind and the sun, so will life outside 90% of the time. Therefor the Outremer 51 is on top of my (sort)list.
How much do ARC boats use their engines? Much of the value of performance boats comes from being able to sail in light wind when the wide hulled boats are turning on their engines.
That is a good point, and a limitation of the data, but I hesitate to call it an issue of value vs an issue of comfort. If you are going to be sailing in 5 knots vs 7 knots you also need light weight sails so they don't flog as much, which means you're looking at replacing them more often and at higher cost. The boats that can take advantage of those light airs aren't cheaper to sail than the ones that are motorsailing in them, as a result.
Who cares? The cost to turn on the engine is peanuts in the big picture. If you have to worry about turning on the engines, you have picked the wrong adventure sport/hobby. I would suggest knitting or shuffle board... it is very cheap, predictable, and safe.
@@got2flynow there are other reasons besides cost (which I think matters no matter even on a 3/4th of a million dollar boat) like quiet, and vibration fatigue, but also fuel availability. If you set out for 6 months of island hopping in the south pacific you might not be able to refuel as often as you need to if your engines need to be run for days at a time on passage.
@@opcn18 As a mechanical engineer, if you have to worry about vibration fatigue, you've have the wrong boat engine. Most marine diesels can run for thousands of hours, then you rebuild or replace them. Quiet can also be achieved with vibration damping systems and mounts. Again, poor design is the issue. We put men on the moon and rovers on mars, I think we can design boat systems that work. You can also have fuel brought to you... not cheap... but if you got into sailing to be cheap, you picked the wrong sport. I would pick knitting. It is VERY quiet and the only fatigue you would get is in your wrists.
much like sacrifices in cars, I'm willing to accept a tighter cabin, with less luxury, all for the exhileration of high speeds and performance. Personal choice, but an excellent discussion, really good.
The Marsaudon cats are so fantastic, he had to leave them out, despite being both comfortable and still reasonably priced. The ARC 2020 was won again by a Marsaudon TS42
@@sven-0 Opps sorry. You are correct. I got 2020 and 2019 mixed up. The first boat in the ARC 2019 was Hallucine a Marsaudon TS5. It tragically has been lost. Also, overlooked that you said a Marsaudon cat had won 'again'. They are fantastic cats. However, prehaps also a bit on the edge when going that speed... ?
Thanks for the analysis. The sample sizes are a bit small to draw conclusions from, except that the Outremers are fastest in the last 4 years of ARC rallies. That said, it is really useful to see how small the differences are for some of the better performing boats. I am a bit surprised to see Lagoons performing well even without the handicap (i.e., some good raw numbers). One or two days slower over 2 to 3 weeks isn't too much. BTW, it's a bit silly to show a foiling AC72 capsizing when talking about ordinary passenger catamarans. That's a bit like comparing a Formula 1 car to a production sedan.
while I agree with your conclusion that the crossing time is not key, a fast catamaran will give you some other things too: safety by running the weather and sailing in very low wind where others will motor, therefore you get fuel efficiency.
Great analysis - perfect conclusion of fact over bs... most time cruising is spent either at anchor of short hops between anchorages so unless you are a dedicated racer what is the point. Catamaran Impi raises the same points and yes cruising in south east Asia without AC is not sustainable.
So, does a trimaran with a thicker cabin on both sides, a thinner cabin in the middle, and a larger foot (60) have both storage space and performance? Getting the perfect ends is only at the expense of construction costs. perfect? (Is it technically not feasible? For example, the seaworthiness is extremely poor?) I am very curious and look forward to the message of senior people!
