It's that time of year where I share my income as a composer from 2023. With this video, my goal is to be as transparent as possible for those that are looking to have careers in composition (that are “outside” the realm of commercial media). I also just think it's fun to compare notes with others for those that are as open as I am about these numbers. Keep in mind that I live right outside New York City, so while the income I make is considerably higher than the $67,521 US median income for 2023, it’s still not quite high enough to live comfortably in a large metropolitan area like New York City. Here is my income video from 2022 if you want to compare both years. That year was tough for live performers as we were still coming out of the COVID pandemic: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-yPdDdrn8tU8.html
Amazing video, Saad. The truth is, this video should be shown and taught long form in music schools and conservatories. I have students ask me fairly regularly about questions relating to this, and this is a fantastic way of giving them ideas and practical ways of thinking.
There are many others things I would add to this but I wanted to keep it to the point. One thing I will add though is if you had asked me 10-15 years ago (or even 5 years ago let’s say) how my income would break down, I wouldn’t be able to predict it. So I think the last point I would make is to remain open about your income sources, whether they come from music or not. For me, I tried the best that I could do to keep them all related to music in some way. But this might not work for everyone.
@@AlbertKimMusicexactly. The vast majority of graduates aren't going to become professors, there isn't enough room. And they're not going to be writing commissions for high-profile orchestras either
This kind of discussion desperately needs to be talked about more at this level of detail in music schools, and your openness in this video is so refreshing-love your work!!
Thanks for making this! I’m a junior in high school looking to study jazz composition. The entire professional music world can be very gate kept so this was a great insight, thank you!!
So great to have a professional talk openly about this stuff - it's exactly the kind of thing young composers/artists need to learn about! Thanks for putting this video out.
Awesome to see you making content Saad! Agree 100% that we need to be more open about how much we make, and more importantly, how much we should charge for our services.
thank you so much for being so transparent and sharing this!!! being a musician/composer and knowing how to make a living out of it is actually so crucial!
Your video popped up randomly on my suggested and I am so happy it did. Your video quality is incredible, I watched every second, the editing, organization and your presentation etc. is off the charts. Can’t wait to follow your continued success, you have gained a new subscriber! Cheers!
Thank you for your candor and openness. This vid is an invaluable resource. Many years ago, at the Henry Mancini Institute here in LA, composer Jack Elliott challenged its first cohort: "Do you want to make music? Or do you want a life in music?"
It is said that when George Gershwin went to meet Igor Stravinsky to ask for lessons in composition, Stravinsky inquired about Gershwin’s yearly income. Upon being informed that it was around $200K, Stravinsky replied, “You should teach me!” This story is probably apocryphal and has also been attributed to Maurice Ravel. Loved the video. ♥
Stravinsky also had a wonderful sense of humor. He was once asked what he thought of the music of Richard Strauss. He replied, “If it must be Richard, let it be Wagner. But if it must be Strauss, let it be Johann!” 😀
This is an excellent video. It is so important for prospective composers to understand what to expect when embarking on their professional journey. Congratulations on your success!
Thank you so much for this video!! I’m starting my journey in composition as a serious part of my life, and this video really gave me a great view of the career that I aspire.
thank you for this breakdown! As someone who went to two music schools briefly yet chose not to pursue a career in music composition, this is the sort of information I always wanted to know at that time, as I couldn't see how music would ever be enough to pay back the student loans I would have accrued! I think music schools should consider adding a course on the "business" aspect of the "music biz"
This was such a useful video! Thank you so much for uploading this in such a transparent manner. For an early career composer like myself, it's truly invaluable information that I can use to help shape my own career. All the best with everything next year and thank you so much again for all your content!
Thanks for sharing. I love classical music and also play piano but just for myself. I just did a deep dive reading about Handel and was telling someone about how he probably was the Taylor Swift of his era. It’s a shame her music is just 4 notes on repeat with meaningless drivel, in comparison to pieces by Handel and Charles Jennens. Have you ever considered writing compositions for background on RU-vid videos? I have no idea what it would take in terms of time or work but I have a Faceless RU-vid channel (not this handle) and the lack of good pieces from curators like epidemic sound in the classical genre could be another income stream.
Saw this RU-vid video in my timeline the last few days but kept avoiding it - was worried it might have too many hard truths that might be demoralising - I needn't have worried, some good ideas here to keep me motivated for 2024
There’s a reason Frank Zappa picked up a guitar and gravitated towards electric music. To his credit, he was able to have a thriving cottage industry and got some of his more serious compositions performed and recorded by the likes of the LSO and Pierre Boulez, etc. I don’t envy any composer making a go of it in the concert hall.
Thanks for your interesting, informative, and honest video. New and aspiring composers should definitely check this out for some perspective. Best wishes with your future endeavors!
I will say, this is a lot of different things to have to focus on. Which sounds like something that would not last a long time for somebody past a few years. Is there really any realistic career path for a composer that is both supportive and sustainable? Having been a music teacher for eight years myself, things just are not getting any easier… and the stress levels became unhealthy when I had to work more than 36 hours a week along two different jobs. Are composers doomed to have to branch out into other careers, in order to make a healthy living?
Almost every composer I know does some version of what I do (minus the RU-vid stuff 🤣, but often IG I’ve noticed) - I’m just offering a realistic non-glamorous, non-romanticized view of what it is like these days as a composer that’s not primarily in media music. For some it’s exciting, for others not so much. That’s our reality right now that I wanted to present.
I thoroughly enjoyed your content and delivery - Bet you are a lovely teacher and great for students to engage with. I could relate very much to what you said about balance between teaching and 'doing'. Same for me when I was working as a psychotherapist trainer. When you mentioned you are early 30, it made me wonder where you would be when my age (63). Any goals? further training/ experiences you hope to work towards. Thanks a lot for sharing and wishing you every success in the New Year Iain
As long as I get to keep doing something related to music that challenges me I would consider myself lucky! That’s my goal 🥅 happy new year to you as well 🙏🏽
Like you, Saad, I talk about my earned income as a full-time musician. I fail to understand why this is such a taboo topic. And way too few job descriptions in classical music directly mention a salary range. Why? Other disciplines layout salary ranges.
You have great attitude! But the sad takeaway lesson for aspiring classical composers is that there really isn't much (really, any) money in it. Your stated income from composition is really total revenue and after deducting expenses (which i hope you do for IRS purposes) is not really close to enough money to live on in nyc. I can't imagine a more professionally enjoyable and gratifying profession but without some other financial backing (like a trust fund!) It is hard to imagine anyone, even with a superlative academic background like yours, making a go of this. I suppose there is always the chance of scoring (no pun intended) a huge hit with lifetime of royalties but that is abviously a pipe dream for the vast majority of musicians of any genre.
Please answers this: when and when would you find the darn time to attend your personal life, like as a 23 year old whom always focused on study and stuff, I bloody need a relationship and etc. One literally can not do all that in even a week. I appreciate more clarification from anyone who has done it
I was at your point many years ago too. This video was meant to inspire others that want to follow a similar path to me. It takes years and years of constant dedication and doing things you don’t want to do and slowly progress over time. What I present in this video took many many years for me to do, and I still feel like I have a lot of room to grow and constantly improve. Keep your head up and stay positive. And yes, I do all these things every week but it took time for me to figure out my way of doing things. It wasn’t meant to be a video to make one feel less than. That’s not my intention with these videos.
@@saadhaddadmusic I appreciate the effort you put in your youtube and thank you for the response. Though instead of inspiration it was a wake up call for me, I guess I should be looking for any opportunity for income in music or else I'd be broke! Your video has helped but in different way.
So interesting! I would love to know how u decide your fee for a commission. Is it based on $ per minute of music,, is it a sliding scale based on what a group can afford and the complexity of score( number of instruments) or do they say we have X dollars to spend on a comission?
Good video! I have a question. 54000 usd sounds like a lot for 10-15 hours of university teaching a week. How come it is that high? Here in Denmark, which is a country with fairly good wages, that would lmost equal a wage of a full time university teacher.
It sounds low to me and most of my colleagues actually 🤣 I live in a high cost area and that salary alone is not enough to live in a comfortable way. I also don’t know the culture of teaching in other countries but I can say that is a lot is demanded out of us here as university teachers in the U.S., especially the northeast.
Actually when I have a few cents left in my pocket I joke about it saying: "Hey, look, my composer salary." I know it's unlikely I will live from my own compositions.
That’s sad. Musicians barely make any money considering how many years of practicing their instruments and studying they go through. If you are single that puts you in the 22% federal tax bracket and state tax on top of that and living in NY and LA is not exactly cheap.
Wonderful, wonderful video 🎉 You are a great communicator and an excellent educator. Gonna get that $5 music school list just cuz that sounds like a good value! On that note.... The producer world could use proper symphonic sound banks/loops. I've seen a lot of kits, but very few made by phd musicians lol
Love your focus on the composer's "complete musical life" - I completely agree that being a good musical citizen is such an important part of being an artist! And I really appreciate your vulnerability about this subject that can often feel taboo. Big fan of your videos and your music, Saad!
I appreciate that Paul. I don’t think my video from last year made that point well enough so that’s why I made a focus on that this time around. I’m focused on my career obviously but I get just as much fulfillment out of this and my teaching as well and I’m not afraid to “admit” that. I feel most musicians generally feel like “failures” if they are not making all their income from music making activities. I think this is just wrong. Just my opinion!
Great video, Saad. The business of music, especially contemporary classical music, is sadly lacking in the music curriculum. I was happy to see your continued involvement in music education where you share your gift and experience with others on the road to music maturity. This to me is priceless. Your music is expressive, evocative, and beautiful. Consider opening another income stream for sync licensing to other collaborative media. Blessings to you and yours now and in the coming year!🎼🎵🎹👏
John that’s very kind of you to say- this was a point I missed regarding music education last time around. Now as for sync licensing that is much easier said than done! 🙏🏽🎁🙏🏽
how much i made as a composer? This is my income as a teacher…😂 One should HAVE money to compose true art music, from other source, in order to EARN money. You can’t expect every composer is a doctorate superstar. If you consider teaching, you can’t say this is “earning money as a composer”. Also to finish these studies you give a lot of money first, so the question remains the same: One should have money to compose true art music, from other source. If someone is poor, he has to start as being a good musician. Not because the description and answer of a question, but because the advice tone it has, this kind of video is irrealistic, if not artistically irresponsible, or just a show-off propaganda about your own financial success (about the artistical I don’t know) that disregards the fact that to compose beautiful and good music is the highest goal, and that this - concert music - can’t be a business because it depends on taking the highest risks as well. Another composer did a similar video, and forgot that not everyone can have a paper from Julliard School, and to get there you either need already more money than you will earn, or a lot of talent and still some money to pay the flight tickets, the higher cost of living close to this place, or the new visa. Basically this advice is useful only for who already has money, and who doesn’t get desperate or frustrated.
Thanks so much سعد, this is a rare type of video as people are very secretive about topics like this. I have just begun my journey as a professional composer with my first large commission out of college. This is setting my expectations straight and preparing me for the real world. Thanks again
Yes, well said. I like to think of my professional life as an ambassador for music within our community. This self conception is so much richer than just seeing oneself as a composer. Your emphasis on how your social professional connections through non compositional work feeds your inspiration is a message that needs to be heard.
It is very cool to see you break it down and explain everything like this. This would be so helpful to young aspiring musicians in general. Very good stuff!
Okay... I am now officially depressed! I knew when I entered the music profession that I would never be rich... but little did I know that life for musicians and other artists would be so challenging. As a young conservatory student, I witnessed great musicians playing music in crowded restaurants, and frankly, it scared me and broke my heart. I compare an artist's life with that of an athlete, and wonder, why, why, why? How is it that one has hardly enough money to keep from starving while the other enjoys more wealth than can be spent in a lifetime? Thankfully, I've had a good life as a teacher... but that is much different than performing. All I can say is... life is full of challenges as well as opportunities. If you could make performing arts work for you, I salute you! It is not easy... but for some, there is no other way!
Hi Saad, i strongly disagree with the last point. Even tho i feel you are trying to create a somewhat positive message. a computer scientist does not have to teach to have a more rounded computer science job. It's better to be honest and say that there is no money in composition. And in my experience as a musician, i decided to lower my overhead and live in a very cheap city to do this full time. And i can attest that only focusing on music can really empower and make you more creative rather than spending days commuting or doing things that are not directly related. Because doing only music is déjà complicated and multifaceted. so it needs a full commitment if someone is willing to create something substantial and not just create another lame wanna be creative work
Totally fine to disagree! I invite you to listen to music by composers like John Corigliano, Georg Haas, Frank Ticheli, Joan Tower, Julia Wolfe, Jennifer Higdon, the list goes on and on. All titans of music composition today. All amazing teachers that teach full-time, which is more than I teach. Higdon from what I understand just very recently stopped teaching. All more than able to write inspiring music. That was a list biased towards US-based composers but same goes with composers in Europe, too. Julian Anderson comes to mind though there are many many others. Just my 2 cents. I enjoy teaching, it helps get me grounded for when it’s time to write. That’s just me and many of the others I’ve listed here, too.
You are very correct, but you are kind of missing the point. Almost all music careers (or any field in the arts) yield low income compared to stem fields. The demand for art is tiny in comparison to science and tech, which is why it has become customary for artists to fill in that income gap with secondary sources. It is in no way shameful to take up multiple jobs, especially if you find interest in each one of them. Money is also not the end goal for a large number of people. Yeah, it can be stressful and unpredictable at times, but that’s why aspiring professionals in these fields should be equipped with that knowledge in order to mentally prepare themselves for it. Hence the likely rationale behind this video.
Thank you Saad, this is so, so, so reassuring. I’m currently working toward my masters in composition and I’ve been terrified that I will be completely broke once I get done with school. It’s a relief to see that it can be done. This stuff doesn’t get talked about nearly enough in conservatory
This video popped up in my recommended at the perfect time: I'm a composer and conductor who has just graduated with a Master of Music from Royal Holloway, University of London and had found myself wondering how to source and establish income streams now that I am in the big wide world. Subscribed! 🎶
Great video. Pianist with a degree from a conservatory here, and man, I wish we had this knowledge when I was in school 15 years ago. Thanks for putting this out there. This only reinforces how much we have to cobble together from different sources to make a living, but living a life of music and being able to sustain it and enjoy it is so rewarding!
Omg! I'm 18yo, beginning my journey as a composer! I was confused about income and jobs a composer has to live and progress musically... But this video helped shining my perception! Tysm!!
Really great video! I’m far from being a music composer myself but I always have had piano playing as one of my hobbies. It’s cool to see so many ways to make money as a musician nowadays
Thank you for sharing. I think it’s important to understand the reality of what it takes to work as a musician or composer today because it usually looks like this, multiple income streams of varying magnitude. It can be tough for a lot of people to understand that it’s really hard to make all of your income from making music or at least it was for me.
This is impressive, Saad. Congratulations to you for a very productive year. Just a question, aside from performance royalties, you also get paid for the rental of your scores and parts, right?
I didn't see anything for band here, but that's the most lucrative instrumental medium for composers right now. Well, that and Saxophone music. Hey I made a piece for Imani Winds last year too! It was for their residency at Michigan State University.
I’m a real estate professional, classical pianist, and banjoist in a bluegrass band. I just turned 30. Im thinking about following my dream and going back to school for composing. Do you think it’s worth it at my age?
@@saadhaddadmusic Great, thank you so much! Also, could I by chance interest you in an interview about the business, your journey, Juilliard, USC, or just stuff in general on my main upload channel (@Jaxon_Powell)? it would likely run about 20-30 minutes, and my scheduling is flexible! It would be an absolutely amazing opportunity I would be blessed by, as music is something I love. Thanks for your advice and consideration, and I hope to hear back from you!
Thank you for the break down! The educational institutions need to address this in detail with their students. What is your take as to why they don’t discuss it at all?
WOW!!! Super insightful. Thank you for sharing so much of your day-to-day revenue streams. Relating to your #8 (Commissions) and #4 (Music Sales) and what you mentioned around 3:49 about the LAPhil ... I'd love to ask you more questions about getting your work performed in a more concert hall setting. So many of what's out there in the RU-vid space tends to relate to music composition for film, TV, and games only .. You've gotta be one of the first composers I've seen talking about a topic that I'm super interested in learning more about which is concert work/performances. Is there anyway, you'd be willing to meet up via zoom or something to discuss this further. I'd be willing to pay for your time of course. Thanks in advance. Happy Holidays, JonRemi
Hi JonRemi, happy holidays to you as well- I offer lessons as per the link the in the description above. I agree; there should be more folks like me that talk about their experiences. There are a LOT of extremely talented folks that don’t get their due in my field.
Hey Saad! Your channel just got pushed on my RU-vid home feed this week so I checked out a few of your older videos and this one. I’m glad you’ve stayed consistent with your channel’s purpose, I think it’s worth keeping up! I’m not sure if the algorithm changed recently, but hopefully you see an influx of viewers soon. This is a great conversation to have about the realities of the classical music industry scene. I haven’t yet executed on the blog and video plans that I’ve been developing out over the past year, but I’m still wondering - how often do you get to talking with performers either here in the comments/on your podcast, or even generally throughout your days? I’m right around your age and have been up through a performance masters degree thus far, including a dual BS in political science, and a huge topic of interest for me is the discrepancy between the realities of a working performance musician and what performers are instructed on in classical university settings. I have yet to come across any performers on a platform like this or in a blog discussing this kinda stuff beyond Patrick Bartley, but he’s familiar with the Jazz scene and not the Classical scene. Do you know of anyone, or have any interest discussing the performer side of things either here or on your podcast with a guest? P.S. - you’d be surprised just how relevant a political science degree is to the music industry. That’s one of my specialties, alongside being a performer :)
Thanks for your kind comment! If you search along with my name for Clara Kim, Noemie Chemali, Timo Andres, and Brandon Patrick George- those are all high class performers that I’ve had on my show that talk about the issues you address. All guests I have on are directly involved with the promotion of new music, whether they are composers or performers. Obviously I skew towards the composer side of things, but those interviews might interest you more.
Thanks for your openness. I live in Germany, so I’m not so sure how your figures relate to the cost of living in NYC/USA but I can look that up : ) I wish I had heard much more about this earlier and thus I would have been able to “add more strings to my bow” to make a sustainable portfolio career that includes composing. I agree with you that it’s good to have other things going on, particularly since composing can be quite isolating and one needs inputs
I live in a more suburban area now- I could never go back to living in NYC 🤣 - but yes I’m very glad to have “fell” into these multiple streams and I at least sense my composing is stronger for it.
Such a fantastic resource Saad. I really appreciated your similar video from 2022. And seeing where RU-vid income falls on this list, I’m even more grateful knowing that you’re sharing this information so altruistically 😅 Thanks for your services to this community.
I have a problem with this, the arm falling on to the keys require TIME and very often when playing loud and fast chords you dont have that time. Consider rachmaninoff repeated chords in concertos or tchaikıvsky octaves in concerto. To me it seems more like they are bouncing back from the keys to disperde the equal force exerted back to the hands from the keys after pushing the keys down (yuja wang great example of this) This allows for the energy to go into launching the hands upwards instead of the muscles absorbing that energy and getting damaged. Id love to hear your thoughts on this.
This is ~40,000 than you made last year. Wow!! Talk about growth. Congratulations on making it and for being rather accomplished in your field. Very impressive.
One thing I may add that can be a revenue stream if done right is to start your own concert series. I am doing this now as a way of getting my music performed and that has been my main revenue generator besides teaching piano and composition. You have to advertise like crazy but if done right, you will build your own audience.
Interesting insights, thanks for the info. Is the Columbia appointment reoccurring and includes full benefits, or is it more like a limited adjunct teaching position ?
Thanks Saad, that was very interesting, i had no idea. First time watching a video of yours. You are a fantastic orator and i'm looking forward to watching the others. 😊
Such a great composition of a video from a composer. As a composer myself I am glad there are videos like this to further understand on what happens behind the scenes of our works! 🙏 (Wish I had this when I was younger)
