HOW MUCH POWER IS CAM LIFT WORTH? BTR TRUCK NORRIS VS TRUCK NORRIS NSR LOW LIFT. DOES LIFT MAKE HP? 

Learning so much from this channel. Mr. Holdener is an asset to the automotive community.

Im a learner before a money burner. Good work as always.

One of my favorite videos, answers the question on lift for me. I don't need high lift or more wear for a nominal hp difference.

More surprising results. I sure would have guessed there would be more difference than that with the lift change. I’m always learning something new here. Thanks again.

The results of this test were very (AND pleasantly!!) surprising! Much money to be saved upgrading valve springs, THOUGH fresh springs on an older engine are always a good idea.

I love this test ! I feel the same test should be done on a 6.0 with 799 heads and done again with 823 heads. I feel small lift with big duration is efficient enough until where you see the non NSR cam start to show gains over at high rpm where the air is being drawn in to quick and the valve starts to restrict the air flow at the engine speed , that’s where the bigger lift starts to shine. That’s why I’d like to see how this test would go on something with more air demand and different styles of heads and see what the graphs would look like !

This is one of the things I look at when picking a cam. I wish in grade school my teacher would have introduce me to garage math! Once again thanks Richard.

What a fun job. I have run 1.7/1 roller rockers on my 350 chevys for a long time. Now, with electronic ignition and a proper quadrajet it will pull from 1,000 in high and when you step on it it goes now especially when the secondaries open. I am also surprised at the basic no power gain. Something is happening though. If nothing else roller tips help prevent valve guide and seal wear. I use many known tricks and parts in this simple motor for easy power and longevity such as ARP bolts. I also use stainless bolts on all exhaust manifold bolts, intake bolts, and water pump bolts. In 25 years of abuse, no matter how long the bolt has been in, they just come out as rust does not touch stainless. Never break an exhaust or water pump bolt again. How much is that worth?

@Richard Holdener ... You have proven Duration & LSA are what really matter. I feel More average Lift is helpful but doesn't have as much of an impact. Thank you for all the testing, it is VERY HELPFUL & informative in decision making. Thank you for all you do!

I would like to see these set ups with some home port cleaned up 799 or 706s and in a 6.0 if possible

I’m seeing a 500 hp 6.0 with stock cast manifolds with a fairly mild cam being a possibility🤓If I keeping watching your testing It just might happen.I’ve learned so much from you and can’t wait to watch everything you put out 👍👍👍

Would be cool to see the NSR cam vs the higher lift cam with some better flowing heads to see if the lift has some difference with more cylinder head.

Thank you so much… I’ve read forums about different lift but never had dyno proof back to back 🙏🏾

It would be interesting to know what the results of this test would be with a canted valve head design like BBC or 351C. I'm reasoning that the valve motion away from the cylinder wall might make more power on canted valve heads versus an identical engine with the regular setup (351 C vs 351 W???) Very interesting stuff, thanks Richard👍

The extra lift does get the valve to its max flow opening quicker But the formula for lift to valve size predicts some very interesting result. Using Brians old size v lift v flow potential formula Pi times valve size

Itd be cool to see how much power is gained from compression alone. Maybe a 10:1 test, 11:1, and then 12:1? If you already have something like this, I'd love to see it.

If the lift is up but the duration is the same, you have to imagine that the ramp rates increase so much that the cam is barely hitting that extra lift for long anyway.

I wonder if the engines displacement relative to the head flow would make a bigger difference, so just repeat this test with a 6.0 and see if it is able to better use additional lift.

Imagine a cam that sounds tough, makes great vacuum, makes loads of power at all rpm ranges, works with any compression level and even better with power adders and won't wear your valvetrain much.

On an LS1, using Engine Analyzer Pro (because cams and dyno testing cost money), going from .525" lift to 0.550" lift, with the SAME open and closing points, is worth 7 HP. You'd see a little less gain on a 5.3L, a little more on a 6L.

Keep on testing, Richard and please keep giving all the engine specs on the videos. That is very helpful. One more observation; If it hasn't been said yet the 799 head flow essentially flat lines at .500" of lift (243 CFM). 799 head flow is 248, 249, and 250 CFM at .600", .650", and .700" respectively. The Truck Norris NSR cam lift will pretty much max this head out in horsepower and the narrow LSA will max out torque (because it's lower than 110 based on DV's 128 theory). Increasing the lift (installing the Truck Norris) will increase the horsepower minimally (like you've proven here) and increasing the lift, duration, and LSA will make a little more power, shift the curves, and decrease torque a little (would be more if this engine had more compression). SS2 and the Red Hot cams are suited for higher flowing heads.

R.H G.O.A.T RICHARD is a blessing to Gearheads. Thanks Richard

I guess it ultimately depends on the head flow vs Lift

I'm beginning to see Adam's perspective on BT's cam theory quite clearly now. BT made a good cam with the Truck Norris but didn't apply that tight LSA technique to the Red Hot and went back to "ADD MORE EXHAUST DURATION" and barely beat out the SS2 which has average less duration and less lift.

The TSP low lift truck cams are down 10-15 hp when compared to their high lift versions, but that's going from .550 to .600. So it looks like the higher you go in lift the bigger the difference in hp (and also the bigger the cam the bigger the difference between low and high lift versions as their low lift 212/218 is down closer to 10 hp and the 218/224 is down closer to 15 hp).

As you can see cam horse power is made for how fast you open the valve not how far you open it or how long it's kept open, good video

Like with almost every engine mod, everything is connected to everything. Some heads (and valves) flow a lot better with a lot of lift, some don't etc.

Red hot had less overlap and more lift. Good info

The PI cam swap on an older NPI motor is a good test of what changing lift does on a cam swap. The NPI cam is sub .465 lift while the PI is .510/.535 in/ex lift. Typically gains of 15rwhp across the whole rev range is seen. With the PI intake, you have the best bang for the buck mods for an early 2v.

richard, just saw the lsa test from a couple of years ago. how about a test where you keep the same inlet closing and exhaust opening numbers and go down on duration while keeping the lift as close as you can to where you started? that way the lsa will open up, but the important events won't change. see how a shorter cam with more lsa compares to a larger cam with less.

You just backed up what Lynn Willinfinger at Mondello performance told me. Lift doesn’t matter as much as duration and cam timing. I was in the market for a more street able cam for my Mopar. My cam I had had 236 duration. He recommended a cam with 224 @ .050. I stated my old cam had close to .480 lift. This cam has only .455. What about grinding a cam with more lift. It won’t make that much difference. Yes I’m very happy with his cam selection. Even the Desk top Dyno backed up his statement.

A strange one - can you grab a piece of straight 4 inch silicone. Or a joiner and piece of pipe. And come straight forwards off the throttle body. At least 6 inches or so? And do a power run, I’d love to see a back to back with an airflow reading. I’ve always found 10-15hp on the chassis dyno over an open TB. Open TB is the best way to lose power even compared to a conventional OTR intake.

Thanks for always putting in work Richard.

Great video and question. I run a lot of 5.3's, lots of swaps and when someone wants an extra little kick in the pants I have had great luck with the Texas Speed Stage 2 Truck Cam. It comes in 2 versions, .550" lift and .600" lift. I always opt for the .550" version with a set of LS6 Blue springs. Works like a charm. I just did a 5.3 for myself and opted for the .600" version and used a Lunati spring/retainer/lock kit and a set of one piece pushrods. I think I wasted my money, really didn't notice a difference but the question is, is there a point of diminishing returns ? Would the extra lift be beneficial on a 6.0L or bigger ? Do the LS heads flow so well that at moderate lift levels do they outflow the requirements of the engine within reason.

Yup, we specialize in Honda V6 J-Series Performance Products (HalferLand Performance) and can tell you other companies have no clue what their doing based on their cam spec. They even tried stealing our specs from our cutter. But anyways, lift does play a role but duration and LSA is where the power is made (again others LSA is so far off, probably the reason their Stage 2's pick up 10-20whp and ours have seen in excess of 42whp gains in a 3.5 engine!)

Wow, I thought the lift would make a bigger difference. I wonder if it would make a bigger difference in a larger displacement engine?

Probably because the cfm difference isn't much between .500 lift versus .550 lift.

Ask Richard a question (i.e. what's up with the BTR Red Hot Cam... where did Milo get his name) every night at 7pm PST on his youtube LIVE chat.

Love the screwdriver stuck into the vacuum hose!

Have you thought about testing the lift on bigger and/or CNC heads to see it's effect on a slightly different configuration?

Concidering the NSR cam is 7hp short, it night be less if you would run it on an engine with stock springs. Stiffer springs do steal minor hp.

Of course with better flowing cylinder heads lift would have a much more dramatic effect.

Richard has the camshaft in and out down pat

That Red Hot is pretty interesting. I wonder how it would compare to something like a BTR NA stage 3 cam... it seems like those guys are good at getting "higher duration" numbers out of "smaller" cams!

Well I'll be damned....Guess I'm just gonna slap a NSR and there and send it with stock springs.....

Just a little more duration and overlap is always a great mod. -- My rev limiter may be set to 6800, but I shift at 6200. So, I focus on keeping the power as good as possible from 4500 to 5800. That way I stay off the limiter and keep the valvetrain in a good spot. If I need the extra RPM, it's there, but driving the engine too hard is never a goal for me.

It's all to the limit to a available room or clearance for the rotating assembly to clear the lobes on the camshaft at operating temperature is cuz things swell slightly

I agree that intake duration is probably the biggest single number but just about everything else is bigger on the red hot cam I'm not sure you should be basically be disregarding those specs

Depends if the hesdd can flow the extra lift, some heads just wouldn't lmfliw the extra lift, in most cases the extra lift didn't hurt you but it didn't help you either, the flow bench kinda ties us that before we even built the motor.

You did a video on LSA, now lift, can you please now finish it off with a duration? Thanks

Do you even lift bro?.... I was so proud of you when you put the joke in there on the screen. I love bad jokes.

Great video! This is awesome to see what each cam is worth n/a bit how different would it be if it was under boost

I'd assume there would be a noticeable difference with more lift on a 6.0 with better flowing heads, compared to a 5.3 w\799 heads.

Can you please use different colours when overlaying your logs, obviously makes things much easier to view.

799 head flow seems to drop off right around .500in valve lift (according to head flow numbers i found on the internet) This same test repeated with a head that sees significant flow gains into .600+ range lift would be interesting. I wonder if the higher lift would prove more useful in a head that flows more at higher lift ranges. 🤔

Cam lift matters a lot!! Quicker you get that valve open the more cylinder pressure you trap.

We learned you dont need the bigger duration. Id run the red hot cam with a 108 LSA and make even more power

So the extra lift on the regular version isn't worth it for NA by this test. No one is choosing this cam for a max effort build so logic would dictate using the NSR cam and being easier on the lifters, rockers, and valve springs. With boost or spray the .551 should outperform it though.

How about a comparison between the Comp 54-459-11 and the RedHot... ?

Can you also tell us at what mileage to change 550 lift springs and what mileage to change 600 lift I have been told 100,000 for 550 and below and 50,000 for 600 and up lift springs

Please test 1.7 vs 1.8 ratio rockers on a stock cam junkyard motor.

Depends on if the heads can handle the extra flow. You can refer to the flow ratings vs lift from the manufacture of the head.

I'm curious how high you can rev the NSR cam on stock springs.

I wonder what a truck Norris with high lift(600+) would be like?

Could you do this test with a set heads that can actually use the lift? What I mean is that I suspect that the lift matters so little because the heads are at their max with the lower lift cam. It would be cool to see this test with a set of BR3 CNC heads on a 6.2. I bet the difference because of the lift would be significant.

So the Truck Norris no spring works with all stock components just needs a tune?

These are the type cams that were being used on ls3 heads back in 2007

Usually engines run better if the valves open occasionally….

Should take this a little more extreme. Get some custom cams made with identical duration, LSA. Etc, with 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600 lift. Then we'll see some bigger differences. If it's only worth a few hp, why bother with more lift at all? Nobody needs more than 0.200" of lift, right? And for that, why even open the valves? It'll run, right? 😆

Would it work to just cut the front cover in half? Then you wouldn’t have to remove the damper every time you cam swap. Surely you wouldn’t lose that much oil when you run it for such a short time. Of you could put something over the slit to keep oil in better.

I'd love to see the difference from.. 5.3 dish pistons vs flat top?

Is there a break in procedure when putting a new cam in? Or anything like that just wondering

Seems like that you always test the cams from BTR Or the Sloppy stuff? I'd like to see some of those up against some of like the Comp stuff, like the off the shelf Extreme Energy cams, and throw in a Lunati Voodoo , or maybe even some Isky stuff! Or Trick Flow Track Max , lots of other cams out there besides from those two that kinda just seem to be the norm. Companies like Isky or Comp have been making cams long, long before BTR or the Sloppy stuff, which they probably have someone at Elgin grinding their cams for them, I'd almost bet on it! So yeah, mix it up a bit on the cam's!!!

What about trying the regular truck Norris Cam with the stock Springs

Have you done a video of just a rocker ratio change? Seems like this video is like that test and what would happen.

I would like to see how much you would lose with running "too large" of a cam on stock heads. The classic scenario of ran out of budget after building the short block, so you slap the stock heads on until you have the budget for correct heads. I've always wondered if you would just be better to throw the stock cam back in or an el cheapo appropriate sized one.

what was the difference in exhaust duration on the SS2 vs the Red Hot? the intake difference was 7-8 degrees, but I'm wondering if the exhaust duration of the Red Hot was longer than that of the SS2, which is why the Red Hot might have made more high end power?!!?

Do you have a video on porting 799 heads and match the intake runners ? I'm at 190k and I'm fixing to do my 2012 5.3 I am going to put in ls7 style lifters and I know that is easier to just pull the motor ,do it, lay the headers in and go back at it. Impressive knowledge sir !

This question isn’t totally relevant, but it’s does have to do with a street cam. I have a HCI 408 LS in a 4200lb regular cab Silverado. It has a 226/230 cam in it. I currently have a 10.5 inch 3600 rpm stall in it and hate it! What stall do I need? I’m thinking a 12 inch 2800??? I need a daily driver stall!

Great info as always. I am wondering if the high lift cam would pull away with ported or aftermarket heads. Idea for another test?

Have you already done a test with two cams with the same lift but one having more duration than the other one. Wondering if duration will pick up more than the 7hp lift did in this test.

Any reason why your dyno chart lines used the same colors for different runs? That's a little hard to tell which is which.

I rewatched the last part of the video a few times and have a question. "5.3, Stock intake, TB, Heads +valvesprings with longtubes" and just the camshaft is 450hp? For reference, stock 9.2:1 comp 5.3 that runs on 87 octane? 323ci makes 450hp? in almost 100% stock trim with springs, camshaft, and long tubes?

What size injectors did you use during testing?

Try the same test on an LS3 and a stroker…

Still itching to see a shootout between 2 NPI engines .. 1 bone stock running procharger at 8 and 12 and 15 psi versus another NPI bone stock but with tear down and rings gapped for boost and running at 8 12 and 15 and then higher ... to see exactly how much the stock powdered rods and factory pistons can reliably take over the same set up with stock gaps. Yes this is done all the time on LS engines and well documented but no one ever does a shootout with the modular 4.6L engine. test can be done with PI engines as well but lets face it if your going to blow 2 modular engines might as well be the cheaper NPI engine no one wants or cares about :) I mean really wouldnt everyone really want to know if the rods and pistons in the bottom end of stock mod engines are really as weak as everyone says they are ? or if in fact all these years it was really the ring gap that started all the failures ? I mean hoping you can squeeze 600 hp out of stock rotating assembly with modified ring gaps but 650-700 might be doable as well ? they do it with boss rods and they are powdered pos as well ?

Would a larger displacement engine be more affected by the variation in lift ? Not huge just a six liter ?

How are you changing the cams without pulling the heads to hold up the lifters ? I have some clips you use on a HD but they are very short. Are you using a longer holder set ?

Richard, question, would it not be true that even if two compared camshafts had the same duration but different lifts that a third factor that needs to match would be be ramp speed? Meaning the "fatness" of the upper lobe should match as well. Otherwise there could be more "effective" lift and duration within the total duration and lift with a fatter lobed cam.

You need to do these types of roller cam videos for the sbc 350 vortec motor 96/02

Will a BTR NSR camshaft pass CA smog?

Wouldnt the higher lift only make power gains if the heads have more flow at the higher lifts?

Richard Holdener, what size intake valves did the 799 heads have?

I have the GM hot cam right now and want to go boost. I know all cams are turbo cams but do ya think it's worth upgrading to the truck norris nsr? This is the gm hot cam specs Duration @ .050" Lift( Deg): Intake: 219 / Exhaust: 228 Maximum Lift (in) W/ 1.7 Rocker: Intake: .525 / Exhaust: .525 Lobe Centerline ( deg): 112

About 10 ft lbs I’m guessing, based on the Texas Speed cams.

How much will one of the FAST intake manifolds going to be over the truck intake on this power level?

Great video

Big question is does the BTR work well with stock pistons without touching? and do you need special expensive not common springs ? also do most people retain the truck manifold or switch to a car manifold when adding go fast parts even to a truck ? because running the different intake might make different numbers ?

Richard what do you use to prop up the lifters when you swap cams?

Been thinking about a truck norris cam in my ls1 Camaro. It’s only got 5k miles on the motor it’s a brand new ls1, so thinking I can do the cam without springs. Any advice?