How NOT to Anneal Your Brass! 

You develop a new code if you upgradet to Aztec and for those who haven't you can send 6 cases I believe and they will develop a code for you. This service is here in the states I believe. Another choice is to measure your neck thickness and look on the website for your caliber with your neck thickness and use that. Whenever they develop a code for someone, they post the brand of brass, the neck thickness of the tested brass, and the code. They share all of those they test for people so that everyone with same combination can use it.

Hi Jerry, I have had nothing but good experiences with the AMP guys. I am not sure Alex sleeps sometimes when I look at the times he responds to email. I have never had a reason to doubt them or question any of their data. Some folks however want to accuse them of simply trying to sell equipment so I feel that independent testing is important. BAR

@@BoltActionReloading i admire your willingness to put in the work to prove or disprove published sfatements. I have a scientific background and had most of the equipment either available to me or through a friend at the institute. Certainly the process they used at Amp is familiar as Vickers hardness is a fairly common industrial measure and the equipment is pretty standard and the calibration process is a standardized, etched in stone procedure that ASTM and other governing bodies mandate so it is uniform worldwide in many instances. I believe their process is almost foolproof in that a given amount of energy induced into an exact amount of mass will produce very repeatable, quantifiable results. Alex told me that an acceptably annealed cas doesn't have to be exactly 100 Vickers but 90 to 108 are close enough to pass muster when they field tested ammo in actual firearms with known capabilities. He said that meaningful accuracy degradation wasn't apparent until the hardness started outside that 90-108 range and when above the highside limit, neck splitting as well as excessive neck tension were observed. You are testing another aspect of reloading related to annealing but not necessarily a direct result of annealing. That is a good thing because all the processes don't always add up to the sum of their parts. Your x number of steps may or may not play well with mine but that just proves that the ultimate consistancy can be achieved in different but usually similar ways if the precision is there. Keep up the good work and I'll anticipate seeing more good and interesting info from you. Jerry

1 word lubricity

I guess I don't see how the process used affects the test. If you want to understand how where you anneal in your reloading process affects your results.

Hi Mark, Why? to understand. I don't believe I recommended it, I just wanted to know what happened. In the AMP video Alex took a hardness measurement on a unfired case, annealed it, took another measurement, annealed it again, took another measurement to see that it did not change, sized it, took another measurement to see that it had changed because of the sizing process, annealed it at a lower setting to see that it did not relieve all the stress(with another measurement), and annealed it again and then did another measurement to see it was back to the annealed state before the size. So there were a lot of tests and a lot going on. His more focused on stored energy, but he also states that the majority of the stored energy (hardness in the case) comes from sizing not firing. Not sure how this related exactly to fruit but figured some folks would find it interesting.

Hi Tom, I hope you enjoyed the video. I don't understand how (or why) some folks thought it had to do with what annealer you use, it is really just when you perform the operation. If I don't show the method I use to anneal, everyone will ask. (people love to tell you how you are doing everything wrong) If I do show it everyone that can't afford one gets offended. I understand that everyone has to do the best with what they have. I just try and keep things as controlled as I can. (trying to give people accurate information, not trying to make others upset)

@@BoltActionReloading Not upset at all. Great video. Just meant that at 64 and shooting for fun I am happy with what I have. Of course, when I win the lottery......LOL.

The owner of the Amp Annealing company told me it's not necessary unless for some reason it is really nasty but for normal residue it doesn't matter. I believe this may be on the instructions included but for sure it's mentioned on their website.

@@jerrygolden832 when you say it’s not necessary do you mean not necessary to clean before annealing? If so I think that means dirty cases have the same code as clean cases so cleaning doesn’t affect anneal times. My point was that lube or no lube inside the case neck does affect the coefficient of friction when seating a projectile which would affect the seating force. I posit that this would also affect the case pressure at firing. Not saying one or the other is better…just saying it makes a difference.

@@sohendo2211 we are getting two different issues together to which there isn't a single answer. Separate annealing-clean or not cleaned brass, from case neck lubricity when seating a bullet. The correct hardness desired when annealing a non- spotless(clean) case is achieved equally with a case that has been wet tumbled with stainless pins, a method which produces a virgin inside neck surface which is less lubricious than one that is tumbled in crushed walnut/corncob media. We have a properly annealed case now so we we forget about annealing and consider the desired lubricity of the inside of the neck we are going to seat a bullet in. A virgin brass surface is not conducive to smooth seating of a bullet. Let's use 5.56 gas gun in this instance. A relatively good amount of neck tension is required to keep bullet from moving in the case neck. Seating a bullet with .0025-.003 neck tension in a virgin brass inside neck surface will often result in deformity in the nose of bullet due to excessive force required to overcome the fricton of the virgin brass. My version of creating the optimum surface is to clean cases with crushed walnut and/or crushed corncob. It cleans the inside of the case and leaves a microscopic layer of carbon which serves as a lubricant. This is the only way you can guarantee that an even amount of lubricant is on the inner case neck. Case lube, graphite or whatever you use as lubricant is extremely difficult to evenly distribute so you have an instant variable. It doesn't matter if your requirement is 1 or more moa but for 1/4 moa you must have everything right every time. Others have methods that work for them so my methods are by no means the "only right way" but they are surely one right way as I have the results to verify it. It didn't happen right away when I first started competing more than a decade ago but having a scientific background I took an analytical approach in an effort to eliminate as many variables as possible. I've never seen this approach produce worse results but just like any process, some things work and others don't but using the positive incremental improvements will eventually pay off if properly applied. BTW, we never stop learning and I'm always open to things that will help me improve whatever I am trying to do.

Hi Dylan this type of test gets complicated very quickly. I did a life test annealing and firing for 20 rounds here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-bZopCBUzruY.html and it would have still been going strong. It really depends on your why, are you doing it for extra life or consistency? If consistency is your answer I don't know how you don't answer the question every time. If its for extra life span, then it gets complicated. (IMO) BAR

@@BoltActionReloading thanks I was thinking about mostly lifespan since I don’t have a justification to drop major cash on an annealing machine. But maybe I could use a torch once every five firings if it would still get me about the same life as doing it every firing. Or maybe it hardly makes any difference at all?

@Haast's Eagle wow good info thanks. With the non annealed, if accuracy is gone at 12, would annealing at 8-10 reset the clock? This way you wouldn’t have to toss them? I’d like to be able to anneal as infrequently as possible while getting respectable case life, since I’d probably only use a torch which takes a while. Also I assume you’re doing only as much shoulder bump as necessary or the separation would come much earlier I’d think

I brush necks no lube. Best results for me. One pass no more, no less

I use an ultrasonic cleaner and my case necks are "squeaky clean". I am going to try a really fine emery cloth polish of the case neck to see if seating force and depth variation will be reduced. An absolute b@ll ache in the case prep process, and trust me, if it makes no difference I won't be doing it going forward.

Its a RPR with a WOA 26" bartlein barrel in 6.5CM

Glad you enjoyed it

Hi Peter, I do have pin gauges, however they have residual oils on them and I did not want to have to clean that off cleaned at that point primed cases. I truly did not expect these results so hind sight being 20/20 I would have dome some more measurements prior to priming.

Thanks!

You want the brass to return to it's original state before you full length size to get a more consistent size. Quenching brass is not a thing. Steel, etc. changes it's properties when quenched, brass does not. Air cool, liquid cool, no effect on brass.

Hey Rob, thanks for the feedback. Glad you enjoyed it!

Hi R Load, These were brushed after the cases were trimmed. I know the advice has always been to size after anneal, but I have never heard anyone say why. I like to understand why. Clearly something changed.

Glad you found it useful.

I don't see how.

@@BoltActionReloading you do know what peening is, yes? So you got hardened stainless steel media pins impacting soft brass millions and millions of times ..... pretty obvious how. however, 4 word reply .............. your literary skills are impressive..................... a regular Hemingway (-;

Hello lencac, 1. I know what peening is, if I didn't, I know how to use google. 2. Peening makes the brass harder if anything, but according to the amp guys (they have talked about this and I think that they may have even covered it in a video but I won't swear to that) but it really only affects are so small that the don't think that it matters. 3. IMO making the brass harder should not increase case life, but I am not going to pretend to know everything either. 4. You asked a very specific question, I tried to give a very specific answer that I do not see how it would accomplish anything similar to annealing. One makes it harder one makes it softer. Often pointing these things out to folks, people take it the wrong way that I am trying to be a jerk (which is never my intention.) 5. I am not a English major so not going to pretend to be a Hemingway, just going to be me. 6. I get a lot of questions / comments and I try to address as many as I can realistically. Sometimes I can't spend 5 minutes on 100 comments per day cause I just don't have a spare 8 hours everyday. BAR

@@BoltActionReloading Attaboy that's more like it. I'm likewise am not metallurgist so I'm not sure what it does. Nevertheless, speaking from experience I literally since I've been using the SS media I have not had a single neck split. We are talking about 30.06, 308 and 7.5x55. Many times after many uses I've had the primer pocket fail to hold the primer tight so I would pitch the case due to that. But as far as neck split, not a single one. And I'll say I have cases that I have used maybe as much as 10 times. When in the past using the walnut media the necks would have split. So that's my experience. Dig your vids. Love ya brother (-:

I would size after annealing. BAR

The necks were brushed after both options were trimmed.

@@BoltActionReloading so maybe the heat of the second anneal increased neck tension. Even though it softened the brass. So running through expander mandrel would be better.

Do or don’t it’s completely up to you man. He’s got videos on testing the results of annealing.

You can make your own induction annealer with 0.01 second accuracy for about $200. Only downside is you have to manually determine the correct annealing time for your brass, which isn't bad, just sacrifice a case or 2 and record the time so you'll have it the next time you anneal. And there are cheaper but less precise methods for annealing such as just a torch and pliers to hold the brass. The AMP is just the best to use when running this specific experiment because it is the most precise and repeatable. You can extrapolate his conclusions to any method. If you can't or don't want to anneal, then don't. If you do want to anneal, then you have many options and resources to educate yourself about it and the various methods.