Wow. Great synopsis on the mind of Sauron. He is absolutely brutal. Would love a comparison video with Morgoth too. As I was watching this, I was thinking of a D&D term for Sauron -lawful evil vs Morgoth-chaotic evil.
"Sauron's use of terr*rism in his method of warfare predates the rise of global terr&rism in the 21st century." Terr*rism as a method of global warfare has been around since the 16th century, mate. Edit: @25:34 Churchill and Roosevelt didn't like to sully their hands. Too posh. Roosevelt was an Eugenistic gen*cidal biological warfare leader at time, against his _own_ people-- for as long as said citizens did not share his complexion and had African ancestry. Churchill would make Mister Austrian Mustache blushes with his body count if 28 million indigenous people k&lled in British colonies. Stalin, though... it was *personal.*
Hmm, there is a problem with (at least) the whole "barehanded" arguement from 24:50 on and you kind of touch it yourself at 31:25 - Helm Hammerhand. AFAIK, he held the moniker "Hammerhand" because he preferred fighting barehanded - and not just during his final days in the snow and not because he had no other options available to him. So, if your reasoning was sound, the same analysis and conclusion must be drawn regarding him. And what would it consequently tell us about the Rohirrim as a people when they venerated Helm and his deeds? So either it's not really a strong arguement or If you apply it only to one, but not the other, then it becomes a fallacy of sorts, doesn't it?
The difference in the war strategy between Morgoth and Sauron was due to their end goals. Morgoth wanted to destroy all of Arda, whereas Sauron wanted order in all of Arda, under his rule of course.
The image of Sauron standing at the top of Meneltarma, laughing at the storms of the Valar, is truly awesome to me. Not only is it a badass image to visualize, but it's a reminder that Sauron _knows_ the Valar and what they're capable of. He knows who and what he is challenging. And he knows that Manwë, in all likelihood, is watching him at that very moment. Sauron may not be aware of just how extreme a reaction he's about to provoke, but he still comes out on top. He loses a good deal of power and has to reform his physical body, but that ends up being a good trade for destroying his most powerful enemy on Arda.
@@striker8961 Ilúvatar didn't get involved until the Númenóreans landed on Valinor and the world got bent in half. The storms that preceded that were sent by Manwë to warn the Númenóreans and remind them who they were dealing with.
I picture it like a baroque masterpiece by one of the great masters. It’s my favourite piece of imagery that Tolkien crafted imo. In my head i image saurons reaction in slow motion when he realises that his body will be destroyed by the storm of his own instigating.
I’m not sure this is entirely correct. Because the storm was not from the Valar. When the Numenorean host landed on Valinor, the Valar turned to Eru who fundamentally changed the world by removing Valinor from its bounds and sinking Numenor under the sea.
@@NPClownumber81googolplex Agreed. This episode puts into perspective how Sauron is not just evil but psychopathic in its pursuit. It really makes sense that he has the mind of a serial killer because they are cunning, orderly(to a point) and chaotic.
@@aegidius_sapart from the really dumb move of putting most of his power in a ring and then losing it. Duh, what an idiot. He must be fantasy's stupidest villain. 😂
I think Sauron exceeded the master, he’s a lesser being in comparison but his achievements with the resources he had at his disposal were considerably greater. This is because Sauron sought to control while Morgoth wished to only destroy.
@@beaufryer2042 In many ways he was more successful. Although Morgoth’s sorcery and mockery of the Valar sort of paved the way for Sauron with the creatures he had at his disposal. Plus we have to keep in mind that many of Sauron’s powers were lost by the War of the Ring too. He almost did it!
It definitely seems like Sauron was the better strategist and for good reason. Morgoth was more focused on doing as much damage as possible repeatedly, and had near infinite resources, barely even using strategy. Sauron on the other hand lacks the same resources, so he must use it more carefully, and thus would learn about his enemies and their weaknesses to exploit it and demoralize people before even marching in full on war. People are scared to even speak his name let alone face him. He’s the better strategist
Sauron & Morgoth. Speaking of which, I remember a video on your old channel discussing whether Morgoth & Sauron viewed themselves as evil. You said Sauron thought himself a responsible parent that would bring order to a chaotic world. But given how you describe Sauron in this and other videos, his behavior toward the Free People's doesn't exactly sell his position as a responsible parent that the Free People's would eagerly accept. In fact, I wonder if he was always confused and thought throughout the years, "Why are the people of Middle-Earth resisting me? Don't they realize their lives will be infinitely better under my rule?"
I suppose Sauron could be approaching things "rationally" and concluding that mortalkind will only accept what is good for them under the threat of violence, but it could also be a personality defect common in psychopaths and abusers - rejecting (or failing to acknowledge) a "gift" from them is an insult, and being insulted makes them angry and violent. The fact that large armies keep forming to oppose Sauron are evidence that he won't actually make the world better (many thousands certainly don't think so), and so he must crush that completely - if he didn't get angry, he might begin to doubt himself, and self-doubt is the one thing strongmen can never withstand.
I think it’s more of he’s against the leaders of the west, once they are gone the average people will See how better they will be under Sauron, hence making the rings, being diplomatic etc
Yes, loved this Premiere! I definitely endorse a video of Sauron compared to Morgoth. Really enjoying the breakdown of various bits of the story. Thanks for all you do!
Mentioning Sauron's spirit fleeing after the fall of the island made me think of Gandolf's "death" on top of the mountain. I think it would be interesting to look into the difference in how 2 beings of the same general tier were affected after their physical bodies perished. Kinda hard to put the concept in words but I think you get me.
Gandalf went through the Void and possibly to Eru, who himself intervened and sent him back. It is Eru who also intervenes and alters the world to drown Numenor and destroy Saurons physical form. Sauron's spirits, I imagine slithering and crawling back to Mordor, a thing of darkness quite uninterested in the calls of Eru. This final refusal of his creators power, as demonstrated, and mercy he instead chose to arise as a Shadow of Morgoth, sharing his master's fate. I wonder Eru's designs for his errant sons once the world was remade, does the great cycle begun again with a "similar yet greater than before." Does Eru have the power to remake the likes of Sauron and Melkor? Melkor of course plays the same role as ever, but Sauron's what if story could be interesting-stripped of most of his powers and sent back one of five wizards. Sauron however would, this time, ever look to Olorin, Gandalf, for wisdom. He would still be sorely tempted by making and crafting, but he cannot make "One Ring". Instead in this new world, it would be Melkor that sought to make a ring, and it's up to Mairon and Gandalf to stop him. Saruman (who was also in the void), however, is secretly in league with Melkor, though with his voice he persuades others making him EXTREMELY dangerous. Of course, knowing Tolkein, it would start and end with a Hobbits Tale...
@@BookofGates this is one of the best comments i’ve ever read! You really put the _cerise sur le gâteau_ with the remark about beginning and ending with a hobbits tale.
@nicholasburns5631 Since they are all a part of Eru, the cycle would repeat itself. I think Tolkien touched upon Eastern philosophy and understood the balance between shadow and light as one cannot exist without the other. The virtue of good cannot excell without the challenge of evil.
Thanks Eric! Research for this video started back in August, and was truly a labor of love ... the collaborative effort to put this all together was a great experience, as this was one of the first ideas I pitched when I came on as a writer. It's a writer's dream to see their work come to life and to work with such talented and dedicated people. I'm happy that the original idea was able to be realized. Thank you very much for leaving this comment. I wanted this video to be as full of lore as possible, for the familiar and unfamiliar fans. A team effort, truly!
"War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." -- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
Tolkien is a writer who came from the First World War after all. As you say, it is possible that Tolkien was influenced by the teachings of various martial arts philosophers and theorists such as Sun Tzu and Carl Von Clausewitz in creating his characters and their conflicts.
Morgoth seemed pretty hands on to me. Binding someone to a chair to watch their family suffer, chaining someone to a cliff side by the wrist...but despite his power and malice, I don't think morgoth was as skilled as sauron. He did take a long time to smash an elf before getting scratched by an eagle.
You're right Morgoth is an idiot but a very very very strong idiot. Keep in mind Morgoth had different power levels. The one Fingolfin faced was a hilariously pathetic shell of his former self. If you compare that version of Morgoth near the end of the First Age to his original self as Melkor is mind bogglingly a huge gap.
I just wanted to say that I absolutely love and enjoy your videos! I am a huge fan and a lover of all Tolkien lore and you have mastered wonderful storytelling, visuals, and perspective. Looking forward to more videos!
This was trully one of the best and most interesting videos on this channel yet! I just love these tactics and strategy videos, if you are able to do it, it would be really cool to see for example an entire War of the Ring (all Battles) in some battle strategy format!That would be really cool... Love these James, great video!
Some dictators are (were) was like Sauron: no concern about his troops, no concern for “means,” no concern for other countries… power at any cost is perfectly acceptable 😢
Sauron and Morgoth. Excellent. I'm old enough to remember the Vietnam War though I was never deployed there. I very thoroughly enjoyed your analysis of Sauron's methods and would be interested more of same. Much appreciated.
Thank u been LOTR fans since my fist time waiting it on VHS in 2003 I was 7 yrs old ( even though I didn't know the total lore at the time ) but 2010 I started reading simarilion books and people's of middle earth books + ur amazing channel I love that I always figure out new info that I didn't know thanx to ur channel
In the book when Aragorn confronts Sauron in the seeing stone he makes it sound much more like a longer confrontation. He said he had to contend with the will of Souron and take the stone from him and make it do Aragorns will. He also said he showed Sauron the sword. So yea. In the movie it made it seem like he was overpowered but in the books that definitely wasnt the case. Denathor also contended with the will of Sauron for God knows how long, we are told that light was seen coming from the white tower at nights for quite a while. And in other places it says Denathor used the stone and contended with the will of Sauron for too long and thats what sent him into hopelessness eventually. But he did hold his own for a while. So thats two examples of men, although with impeccable blood lineages from way back and thus Exceptionally stronger than most, contending with the will of Sauron and one winning.
Absolutely true! Here at TBS we consider PJ's treatment of Denethor to be his most unforgivable sin. Perhaps a video can be done soon on the real Denethor. The only problem with contending with the will of Sauron is that humans are, well, finite creatures. Sauron has the benefit of engaging in long, protracted struggles and just using time to his advantage. As someone might overpower him or still their mind against him for a time, they are prone to human failure, human fallacies, etc. They get tired, have responsibilities, and know that engaging Sauron is probably what he enjoys the most. He is, after all, a damn sadist. Excellent comment, and might I say, fantastic name ya got there 🤣🤣
@@Brandon-a-writer its a great name, right!? Lol. Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate it. And I agree that PJ really did Denathor wrong in huge ways. He really was a great, wise, and obviously strong man. You're right in that even though Denathor contended against the will of Sauron for quite a long time by the standards of men, by the standards of Sauron it would have been a blip of time and just a matter of it before Denathors mind and resistance was overcome. And that's what happened in Return Of The King (the book). Especially after Faramir was injured and then he saw the massive army of Mordor outside his gates, an army Sauron had been showing Denathor with the stones for some time. Still the fact he held out alone as long as he did is amazing. Thks again and thks for the video. I've been watching a lot of them and they are all very well done and researched. Cheers and happy TG.
@@bw040690 Happy thanksgiving! And you're right, what we lose a lot with the films is the amount of effort it takes to really strive against sauron/the ring and the immense effort required to do so. Denethor's treatment in the film is basically offensive, unless you see it as a filmmaking decision to give the sense of "trouble without, trouble within" or to parallel Theoden, as their names are nearly identical in reverse. I try to remind people that the book characters of Frodo and Denethor are much, much different than their portrayal in the films. Even Gollum is much different in Andy Serkis' wonderful performance, but in my opinion book gollum is much different... Though I do enjoy him in the film. Denethor is just tragic and hard to justify on any level. And hey friend there is no need to thank me, we do this out of love (as lame as that sound) for the material. that people come and enjoy them is just extra! upcoming videos! maybe a books vs movies series on the differences, maybe starting with the real denethor? XD
@@Brandon-a-writer yes! I think a vid on the difference between Denathor in the books vs the movie would be a great vid and a great way to show how much different some characters are in the books vs in the movies. Also a somewhat in depth look at how Denathor and Sauron basically went toe to toe for a while and how Denathor was able to hold his own for a while in a battle of wills against Sauron. When you really think about it it's pretty amazing he was able to do so. And the fact that Aragorn was actually able to wrench the Palantiri out from under the will of Sauron and bring it under his control. This is one of those actions or moments in the book that the reader knows is important but because it's not explained in more depth or dwelt on some readers miss the absolute significance of this. Imo it could be considered one of the greatest achievements of the 3rd age. It was suce a blow to Sauron that from then on he had Aragorn constantly on his mind, and I think even had a fear of him, and that was a HUGE advantage going into the war and especially the battle of the Pelennor Fields.
@@bw040690 Yes, in a script I'm working on right now that looks at the magic Gandalf wields and considers how importance the staff is to doing that magic, the idea I'm putting forward is that it might be important as a symbol of his order, or even as a conduit to focus their will, but what I draw attention to is the first scene with Gandalf and Bilbo after Gandalf has helped Bilbo vanish, to make it look like there is some obvious trick rather than letting the Hobbits actually see Bilbo disappear like we do in the film. Instead, there is a long, probing conversation between Gandalf and Bilbo where we first see the ring has some strange effect on Bilbo, how he recognizes that there is perhaps a separate will acting on him. "I felt so queer..." This is when Gandalf fills the room with his shadow (after Bilbo reaches for his blade!) and says, "It shall be my turn to get angry soon, and you will see Gandalf the Grey uncloaked" (paraphrase). What we have in this scene, is how Gandalf slowly undoes the hold the Ring has over Bilbo by appealing to the best in him, imploring him gently to leave it behind and be free. This is his mission, to give people the hope and heart, and to fortify their hearts against Sauron or whatever force of evil should arise. The staff may aide Gandalf in someway, but I do not believe it is necessary for him to use his power. This is a script for upcoming video! There is a beautiful segment from Tolkien's letters I found when looking for some answers for this question (I actually just searched his letters for 'staff' haha) but, in doing so, I found a letter to his son where he talks about guardian angels, and a religious experience he has had--and his meeting of a beggar he describes in a way that is so like Gandalf it is hard not to see it in the letter. Check letter #89 or--if you'd like a brief glimpse behind the scenes at the Wizard's castle, here is a temporary viewer link to that work in progress! docs.google.com/document/d/1PcqX-cmNPGlp97jp3AX_6Zy2JUE8OwJXYjlB_x8hrkU/edit?usp=sharing (Please respond to me as soon as you have this, first to let me know you have the link so I can remove it; while I have not been told to avoid doing this, I should rather not spread unreleased materials en masse simply because as the main writer I can do so. I merely wanted to share this because of the intriguing points and comments you have been kind enough to make, and hopefully this will earn your view / like :) I am pitching the script for "The Real Denethor: Book vs Films pt. 1" as we speak!
Great video as always. Melkor is more evil as he the discord, the black to Tolkien's white, Sauron is a corrupted shade, whereas Melkor cannot be corrupted he is the personification of evil in Tolkien's universe.
This is a very wide definition of War. When it came to actual War, the method was generally to macro like crazy and overwhelm the enemy with sheer numbers and good enough technology.
Yeah for sure. Even with a better equipped larger force he lost almost every major battle. So his strategy as an actual battle field strategist had to be pretty weak.
@@tim6454 Soviet Union also lost some battles in the beginning of Barbarossa, but could spawn 12 new divisions for every one the Germs deleted, so it came out on top in the end. Rohan and Gondor were running on fumes after all the Pyrrhic victories and the battle at the Black Gate would go very differently if the One Ring wasn't destroyed.
@@1Maklak yeah but it's more of an example of him overseeing an overwhelming force than of an expert strategist. Anybody could win a war when they have a 10 to 1 numbers advantage if they are willing to throw their troops into a meat grinder to overwhelm the enemy.
So, the question is, would Morgoth have helped Pharazon if he wasn't locked up? I know Sauron knew he was telling partial truth, but I certainly think Melkor would have had Pharazon on his side to fight Eru just like Sauron said lol.
I love turning on auto generated subtitles for these lore videos. It's hilarious. My favourite so far is Kelly Brimboy and quite often the elves are the owls 😂😂😂
Tolkien really is a genius writer and you can really see how he mixes his Christian views to his work perfectly. Sauron was always the more cunning strategist but he always gets hindered when he comes close to his goals. Could only imagine the frustration he must have felt everytime his plans go awry. It's like Iluvatar is playing a prank on him almost like a todler trying to reach that sweet candy from his Father's hand but the moment he comes close his father takes it away. I bet Iluvatar and the Valar at Tanequitil are laughing their asses off at Sauron everytime he thinks he's getting what he wants.
This video was absolutely great! And it presents very good why I believe that Sauron is the most interesting villain of Tolkiens legendarium... Morgoth seems to Me like the most evil being, but still he cannot compete with Sauron as a well thought villain. (Sorry for My english, but it is not My native tongue)
What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
Sauron ordered the heads of prisoners catapulted in the city. Morgoth had the relatives of elves of Doriaith mutilated in front of them. This is much sicker. Sauron just seems to try too hard to be like his master.
Makes sense that a craftsman would want to work with his hands. Too bad that just results in someone chopping off your fingers. Weapons exist for a reason, dude.
I think Gil-Galad held Sauron in a grapple for Elendil to strike with Narsil. Gil-Galad perished from the hell born heat of Sauron's body. Elidil and Narsil were shattered by striking the cursed body of Sauron. But Sauron's body was spent. And Isildur, taking up the shattered sword of his father, cut the Ring from Sauron's fallen body. Then Sauron's spirit fled, and the hearts of Elves and Men felt the Powerful Evil spirit disappear.
Him: his most preferred weapon was, in fact, his hands Me imagining Sauron beating the crap out of someone with Just his hands and not stopping: interesting
That was a very thought-provoking video. Thank you. It helps one to appreciate the book a lot more. Is it significant that Sauron is a solitary character, with none to alert him to possible weaknesses in his plans ? The opposition to him is never solitary, & that may be one reason for their eventual victory over him. In answer to your question: I think Morgoth is immeasurably more evil than Sauron. Morgoth was, in his origin, the mightiest even of the Valar - and Sauron was in origin “only” a Maia: great and powerful, to be sure, but far below the Valar. If then it is granted that Morgoth was in origin mightier and greater & more excellent than Sauron, I think it follows that there was far more goodness, originally, in unfallen Morgoth than in unfallen Sauron. IOW, Melkor unfallen had a far greater capacity for good (and thus for creativity) and for love of others, than unfallen Sauron had possessed. The greatness of the evil done by Morgoth, hints at the greatness of his original untainted unfallen capacity for good. I think that Morgoth once fallen “went to the bad” much more quickly & totally & more irreversibly than Sauron, precisely because Morgoth was in origin so much mightier, nobler, more powerful, more gifted & more excellent than Sauron. So I think that Morgoth fell more ruinously than even Sauron, and is therefore more evil than Sauron. Though there may be evils in which Sauron fell lower than his master: but even if so, they may be traceable back to Morgoth.
Wow so if you consider that the 9 rings for the men created the nazgul what might have the 3 elven rings wrought if they had held his full sway? Of the 7 Dwarven rings they were a loss to begin with. Dwarves are just so damn stubborn and lacking of reasonable fear. A dwarf can be grossly outnumbered and overpowered, look you dead in the eye and tell you that they feel sorry for their enemies. And mean it lol 😂
So,,something that confuses me about Sauron. He is meant to be the greatest student of Aule-the Valar of crafting and smithing. We see that up front through the creation of the rings of power and in particular the One Ring which Sauron personally crafted along with the creation of his nigh impregnable fortress of Barad dur which he surely played the sole or at least lead role in designing. However, when it comes to Sauron's military we see that his main force of orcs are basically no better equipped than in Morgoth's day. Their gear is continually depicted as inferior to their opponents such as Rohan and Gondor. Their tactics are basically 'mob rush' in almost all scenarios and they seem to make no use of Cavalry on a large scale even though they have access to a variety of mounted beasts from Wargs to horses and potentially other beasts. Yet, Sauron is a smith. Sauron has a great desire for organisation. We know that Sauron must have incredible logistical skills to feed and marshall the enormous Orc armies within Mordor during the 3rd age-especially given the prolonged times those armies seem to need to spend guarding or traversing the desolate plains of Gorgoroth. We also know that Sauron can directly see the equipment of his own allies-the Easterlings, who are shown to be better equipped and motivated than his own Orcs, So, why given Sauron's own skills in organisation, crafting and exposure to direct comparison of superior weaponry and tactics does he not upgrade his Orcs to match his opponents in quality instead of merely relying on quantity-a strategy he surely knows from first hand experience has failed him and his former master time and again? If Sauron were 'sensible', all Orcs would be Elite 'Uruks' with pike, sword, shield and bows equal or superior to anything the Free peoples could muster by the 3rd age. Given his organisational skills, he should also have had the most ruthless and capable Uruks promoted up the chain to lead his armies and given incentives to them such as more loot, better conditions etc. This would aid in morale and prevent the armies from routing at the first sign of trouble. He should also have had large cavalry forces since these are basically the 'tanks' of the pre-modern world and offer huge advantages in both mobility and communication. Sauron was also surely aware of blasting powder meaning he could and should have made much greater use of it especially taking down Gondor's many fortified cities. There are other anomalies too such as the pitiful use of Olog hai-war trolls which should have been created earlier and deployed in greater numbers. A fully armoured war troll mixed with Uruk infantry would be hell of a thing on the offense or defense. In total though it just seems that Sauron had very selective focus. He could feed his armies but not equip them. He could send his armies to fight but could not lead them well. He relied on Orcs but seemed half-hearted in attempts to better them even though he had the means and it would have brought him much closer to his overall goal to do so. Frankly, Sauron's inability to conquer Middle-Earth seems to stem primarily from the fact that he is just grossly incompetant or insane or both.
My explanation would be simply that Sauron didn't need to. By the Third Age, the Free Peoples were so weakened they couldn't take the fight to him, so any battlefield victories they claimed would ultimately amount to little. Throwing army after army at his enemies was the play - in no small part thanks to Sauron taking almost 3000 years to set things up. Also bear in mind Sauron is fully immortal; whether something takes 3 years, 30 or 300 is probably not a major concern. His strategic mistakes are all due to the Ring at the end. The fear of, say, Gandalf or Saruman using it against him and taking it from him forever caused him, patient planner for centuries, to rush when it mattered most.
Now, Sauron waging war was inevitable. The situation before Bilbo came into possession of the One Ring for the free peoples of Middle Earth was fraught. Sauron was hiding, playing the part of the Witch King in Mirkwood. A potential weapon of terror for Sauron was Smaug the Dragon. A more potent weapon than half than 5 Ring Wraiths! In the dark tunnels of Moiria, the Balrog! An unknown threat to the free peoples. Saruman's betrayal of his mission was a great blow, and later fall to the dominion of Sauron! The Ring Wraiths were Saurons trump card. Together, no power of Elves or men could overcome them. Only the destruction the One Ring could destroy them. Along with legions of Orcs, Easterlings & Southrons. A seemingly insurmountable threat!
