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You need to work on your pronunciations. Bespoke and subsequent are both words you have trouble with. You need to start using a short A sound with those two words.
@@shinji391 "Especially" is another one. Also it's a grammar thing but some words are "more" and some words are "-er" like something is "weirder" not "more weird"; he gets those wrong on occasion. I'm a grammar and annunciation/pronunciation buff so I notice every tiny slip people make and my brain immediately corrects it. I never intend corrections in a mean or unkind way, we all make mistakes that's how you learn.
It's amazing. Content like this never ceases to amaze me. I remember being 8-15 and being stuck on some games and wishing there were clear play-throughs and guides. Fast forward to 2022 and we literally have scientific breakdowns of random results in games 20-30 years old. This is the stuff that keeps me going
always feel like changes to speedrun rules as long as they pass with vast majority of support from the people who actually run the game are fine. especially if they make stuff way more playable, cause whilst records are cool and all, this is all supposed to be fun
Exactly. For example link low percentage run is like 18 days normally and using an external tool to confirm angles saves you the 3 day wait to be told you did it wrong
As long as the tool doesn't directly interact with the game, I don't see a problem with it. People have been writing down notes for various things for years and this isn't much different.
Determining what’s “cheating” will always be a problem in a community primarily based around discovering exploits/glitches/skips/manipulations. Lol it’s pretty unavoidable
Bit of a complicated answer but essentially a TAS is a run where there aren't any human inputs, it's all inputs being fed to a game by a piece of software. As I said in the video using external tools to help in human performed speedruns is relatively new; in this case it's not doing any inputs for the players but there is an argument to be made that it's not in the spirit of competition as it's a quasi outside influence. The melee community have decided to allow it, as have the Wind Waker with their tool that solves sploosh kaboom, so it's likely that for solving a single instance of RNG these tools are here for the long haul. If you want to see a fully solved game, go check out my Hades video, as they found a way to manip RNG for an entire run.
You could argue these are not TASes in the traditional sense because the tool is not being used during the speedrun itself, only in preparation before the speedrun begins. Ultimately the leaderboards are tracking a player's ability to play through the level, without restricting how they practice or prepare ahead of time.
What Scott said, you can technically do all this work by hand too, but it's faster for a computer. Is referencing notes or asking chat about to remind you about something that happened earlier in a run "Tool Assisted"? No wrong answers, and it often depends on how each speedrun game community structures their rules and definitions. Basically, if everyone in that community thinks something should be allowed or banned, so be it!
Their argument obviously isn't about what's performing the inputs. It's about the fact that gaining knowledge about the game's engine by peaking at code is literally tool assisted. I didn't finish the video yet, but are you saying you can decipher how to manipulate the RNG purely by hand and without any tools to visualize how the memory changes?
This is one of the more soft uses of rng manipulation. It just makes it so everyone can start trying attempts right away instead of resetting for it for hours. You look at a lot of RPG game rng manipulation and those literally mess with how the fights go. So I would say this one is not an issue at all.
This one really has my brain racked. Half of me agrees with you, but half of it still feels like it's some form of cheating. That half of my brain says "This isn't just an all stars run, its an all starts set seed run." Like i think there's a decent comparison to minecraft speedruns. There's a random seed run where they gotta roll the dice on world generation every time, but then there's also set seed runs. Wouldn't this just be a set seed all star run? But like im not even fully convinced of that argument because a set all star run seed "feels" different than a set minecraft seed, i just cant articulate why.
@@jacobreinitz1334 In a minecraft set seed run, literally millions upon millions upon millions of small chances come together to create a completely unique outcome, in these set seed runs, the only difference is a guaranteed 1% chance at the beginning, which is way different
@@coreblaster6809 So is there a line then where the amount of RNG manipulated become acceptable for a regular run? And if so, where is it in between 1 roll of RNG and 1 million rolls of RNG is it acceptable to manipulate RNG while still being considered a "normal run"? The more i think about it the more i agree with you though. The core gameplay in a set seed all stars run is a lot more volatile than what occurs in a set seed minecraft run. In smash, there's a lot more room for mixups and skill expression, i imagine with minecraft all the top players do the same exact thing for set seed runs. But yeah very interesting thought experiment
@@jacobreinitz1334 It all depends on what the speedrun community around the game agrees upon as making it fun to play and fun to watch. If there is enough interest a separate category can always be created.
There was somebody who did cheat in a tournament by altering peach RNG numbers with a memory card which loaded a modded version of 20XX. It's a little different from what you describe here, but it is definitely doable.
This is very cool, but I believe this should be left for TAS. Because you can’t read the information you find by hand, using the tool to make up for a human deficiency is stupid.
This is amazing. Every time a video drops it's like I'm back in school, half understanding what's going on but fascinated by everything :O. Also, this thumbnail is amazing
I personally think that the use of external tools should not be allowed in speed running, as said tools give information to the player that was not intended to be accessible. Speedruns should only use the console, game, controller, and TV. Nothing else. If a casual player can't see the current RNG value, neither should a speed runner. While I don't think RNG manips should be banned, runners should only be allowed to have access to the information that a regular player on a regular console has.
To me, I do not think external programs such as that should be used. As a spectator of speedruns, and hypothetically, maybe smash bros melee all-star, it would be cool to say "he got a wr with THOSE characters!?" but as well, external programs to me seems like your using tools to assist your speedrun. TAS.
I believe this rng manipulated runs should always have their own "category" so that cool any% runs won't be replaced for a souless RNG manipulated boring Speedrun where you watch a guy pressing specific keys for 2 minutes so he gets the perfect run
I dislike when runners use external tools to manipulate the RNG. I don't generally watch certain RPG runs because of it. It is literally a tool-assisted run, and even though it's not run by a bot that doesn't make it any less tool-assisted. Just feels like it should be a separate category to me.
5 minutes in: huh, don't I recognise that name? 5:40 in: ah, right, I _definitely_ recognise that name. savestate is even more awesome than this video makes him out to be
if this tool is cheating, then i would imagine practice roms, as well as using save states to practice, and even using a timer outside of the game's own built in timer, would also be considered cheating. because you're basically trying to draw a line with invisible ink.
i think anything that's reading values in the game from external is cheating, if you were to use one of those ducks that keeps drinking water for example I'd call that an assisted run, but using an external apparatus to see code from within the game and then using that information to manipulate the game to get results you want? cheating for sure af
I wouldn't really call this cheating but methods like this were always kind of lame to me. Though it's definitely nice for cutting down the time spent long term lol. Pokemon Colosseum has a similar type of tool used I think where they look at the pokemon in the random VS battles and then time starting up the game to get the ideal stats/IVs
Genuinely curious, what made you decide to use the 20xx training build for so much of the footage in this video? It overhauls how AI works so i found it kind of curious- could be a mistake, but could be deliberate. I'd love to know! If it has to do with having a setup with everything unlocked, there are other ways to go about that while maintaining vanilla behavior and Speedrun eligibility (not that you are doing runs yourself but for the sake of gathering footage for comparison it might be easier/more accurate).
I don't speedrun smash bros games or even play at a high level, but to me it seems like the obvious solution is to consider the rng manip to be a form of set seed and then runs are categorized as seeded or unseeded.
using a program outside of the program to manipulate rng has always seemed fine to me, but I have never seen it being used for a speedrun outside of the run itself, that to me seems like it should be part of the speedrun, but also not cause theoretically you could just get the perfect seed by luck, this just removes the luck in that way it seems fine.
Nah I think if you can manipulate RNG through skill that's ok. Using a tool removes skill. Same reason NASCAR has gotten significantly less entertaining.
Isn't using a tool that isn't a part of the game to assist you with speedrunning a game the definition of a tool assisted speedrun? I'm pretty sure it's not new, but accepting them as non TAS is new I guess
TAS is a bit of an outdated term, or it's meaning isn't accurate to the words that make up the acronym. TAS just refers to a speedrun that's done exclusively with tools, back in the day there may have been hybrid runs but now when people say TAS it's always in reference to a speedrun done where inputs are being fed into a program
I'm fine with the RNG seed program for 2 reasons. 1. You can't stop/catch people so banning it only hurts people who follow the rules. 2. It just tells you what seed you're on. It doesn't do any part of the run itself for you.
I'll add that knowing how to manipulate what trophies you will get from the trophy machine has had some RNG manipulation as well. Although I don't know all of the info on that one sadly but it's based on system clock for some things on top of everything else RNG related. Just for some fun context and facts here.
You asked: what they're using is a *tool* outside of the game to *assist* them in a *speedrun*. It's a tool assisted speedrun. If it has its own category it's fine and good. Or I guess if the whole community is doing it like I believe they did in Minecraft, then it's not cheating, but it is, by definition, a tool assisted speedrun.
I think this rng manipulation is totally fine. You could do the same thing with a piece of paper that has all the rng values and just lookup your specific rng to find how to get to the desired seed. It’s not a tool that injects a seed into the game.
Im here to add a different definition to random to make it an actually useful term so you don’t have to constantly say “appears random” or “usefully random” Currently we treat “random” as “completely unpredictable” Unfortunately, nearly everything is deterministic (and i am of the opinion that even quantum mechanics is even though we can’t test it, but that doesn’t matter) so the term is useless to us Basically i am proposing that random should be used to mean “irrelevant to the current subject” So, if your rng is based on the characters position, it’s something you interact with all the time and isn’t really something that can be usefully very random. But if its based on time that passes, which is basically impossible to control, it is totally irrelevant to your actual experience as a player. Its useful because it is irrelevant making it “feel” completely random. It also means “random” things like tacos and dinosaurs, would be random because they are irrelevant. I just fucking hate the word because it doesnt fucking describe ANYTHING. It has to have a new definition sooner or later, especially because you all use it like this definition anyway, hence the term “rng” being used in programming at all
if a speedrun is assisted by a tool, it is a tool assisted speedrun. If the community wants to play the TAS-light version of the game, sure why not. But don't call it Any% because that is a lie. edit: I feel the same way about ninjabrain bot for minecraft speedruns.
External information is a form of cheating. Using a program to look at your RNG or other information, in order to gain an unfair knowledge advantage, is cheating in my books. It may not change inherently change the game, but it changes the way you play it. It's like already knowing about a secret super weapon on your first playthrough that makes the game easy.
I don’t think the RNG manipulation is cheating exactly but save state beat the world record by 2 seconds. How much time did it take to get the right seed? Probably more than two seconds, right?
I don't see anything wrong with this particular use of seed manipulation - of course, as an FF8 speedrunner I use a similar sort of program to determine the SeeD ID for that particular run, which cuts several minutes out of the run as we don't need to go to the Tomb, so maybe I'm biased. XD
@@Abyssoft Well, in order to determine the ID, you take various factors like the first random fights you encounter (not just enemy composition but even how the camera moves at the end) and how many electric poles you see while on the train to Timber. It's been awhile since I practiced because I'm in graduate school, so my memory is a bit scuffed, but there's a lot of factors that go into that. It's probably the only "major" skip in the game due to the nature of JRPGs in that era (and it's not even major because the only decent thing you get there aside from the code is the Brothers summon), and everything else is more or less basic routing. Well, I say basic, but there's a lot of variation even there because you need to unlock Ice-MAG RF and, for some routes, Card Mod, in order to save the most time in battles... Despite the length, I highly recommend watching the GDQ run from a couple of years ago, because the guys running it are absolute legends and know as much about the game's mechanics as I do about the lore.
Is it a 3rd party tool assisting with a speedrun to do something beyond what an average runner is capable of? If yes, its a TAS If no, it is a regular speedrun. There is nothing wrong with a category being TAS using only a specific tool, but it should be separated from runs not using the tool, especially if the Tool makes the strat widely available to all skills of speedrunners. (IE. Reading RNG values is MUCH harder for an average human vs them using a notepad to record down a passcode. Both are tools but one is much more specialized then the other.)
RNG manipulation is fine. But as soon as you need to use external programs to do so you are always one step away from cheating. Like it doesn't even matter what the program does. What matters that it is not the game or the player. It is extra information that you would not have when just playing the game thus it is an external tool and should not be allowed. RNG is annoying but when is it not when you're trying to speedrun.
I don't see any issue with seed manipulation because literally all it effects is if you play the run or not. It's like finding a good world seed in Minecraft, literally all it automates is having a playable run. It's not like it automates an actual skill runners need to have in the run itself. ~~unlike the Minecraft speedrun~~
my thoughts on external tools is that as long as the player manually enter the input variables required for the program to function then it is fine. if a program can automatically input its own set of input variables then it isnt OK. my line of reasoning is that one requires the player to engage in the game being speedrunned to keep track of the input variables while the other can do it in the background without the player engaging in the came to keep track of anything. obviously there is a sort of theoretical critical mass of what a runner would have to keep track of so it isnt a perfect line of reasoning. though ultimately it is down for the community and its moderators to decide
I feel kind of bad for whoever made the thumbnail. On 1 hand, it's ugly as sin and deterred my interest in this for a while. But on the other hand, it looks like it took a really long time to make. It's a shame all that effort couldn't be spent elsewhere. = (
Looking from the outside in to these rng manipulations, now that we know the game changes based on inputs and/or timing in menus, why don't the speedruns timers start during these menus? Or at the very least most runs that don't differentiate between manipulation or not should start doing so, shouldn't they?
Tournament viable: no at that part I just imagined 2 tas bots both vibing in their corner trying to manipulate rng in their favour and their opponents disadvantage, playing 5d chess.
My opinion: as long as you are only manipulating with the game code itself from the inside "not adding code that didn't exist with external programs" its fine.
"Technological advance is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beach and produce a Dataprobe. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, and then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken." -Sheng-Ji Yang
It’s not considered tool assisted because the program used is just giving the runner information about the game state without affecting the actual run attempt. It’s just streamlining the resets for a perfect seed. The tool is also not affecting the game code in any way, as the runners are manually entering the information themselves.
@@DuckDoolittle In the end, the tool is giving assistance to the player, because it is giving info that is not suppose to be seen. I can take it as valid if you can memorise the data without any external tool or modification to the game. Like in mistery dungeon that they manipulate the paths and pokemon's behavior, but it is still another branch with/without QS. It is not like in sunshine either where they choose to skip the intro, but there is a part that need input, if I remember correctly.
@@ZATCHBELL2007 The fact that the tool is giving the player assistance is irrelevant here, because A: the game and all connected hardware are unmodified, ie the tool is not reading or affecting game data directly, and B: the tool is not being used by the player once the run has started, only during setup. It’s no different than using a metronome to hit a startup frame during resets of Pokémon speedruns.
@@DuckDoolittle I do not know that they need a metronome, but still, it is the player that knows when to start, and not the metronome that tells the player the info, and the tool is giving directly unobtainable info. In mario kart they make a move that boost speed that is not intended by nintendo with worn out controllers. You can say that it is not a modified hardware, but gives unfair advantage to the player (even if all of them can worn out their controllers), thats why in the end they created separate records, or in the run of super mario bros, the speed runner waits few seconds prior the beggining to access the seed he wants, but he doesn't inpunt any info or recieve info with external tools, just his memory and experience, for me that is a valid manipulation. In the end we will have diferent ways to percieve the word "assistance", and what can affect the run which can be a set up, in mid of the run like the quick saves, or even the runs that trigger the end like super mario world.
@@ZATCHBELL2007 “It is the tool that tells the player when to start” This highlights my point of the run hasn’t started yet, so this would all fall under preparation for the run, not part of the speedrun itself. Therefore, the speedrun cannot be considered tool assisted, because no tools were used durning the run. “The tool is giving directly unobtainable info” This is demonstrable false, as the tool is not connected to the game, and it is not pulling values out of the data. The tool is basically a calculator, it is helping the players determine where in the RNG they are so they can correctly start the run at precisely the right moment. Once the run starts, there is nothing assisting the player externally, it is all their own inputs and skill. This is therefore, by definition, not a tool assisted speedrun, where the tools in question change how the inputs are done ie with frame by frame, rewinding, and precise controller inputs using a program.
I definitely don't think RNG manip at its core is cheating - it's akin to any other technique that might be used in a speedrun, like a zip or wrong warp. Now, if a third party tool is needed in order to monitor the RNG seed or anything like that - I feel it gets a bit murkier. I don't like the idea of needing a third party tool to perform a speedrun; it feels like a speedrun should be performable just on the original hardware and original game.
That's my take. If you can memorize stuff, develop the physical skills to manip it on your own, that should count. If you're using tools then... Meh. That just seems cheap to me.
RNG determining random characters on the character select screen explains why when 2 people both pick random on slippi rollback, the result will always be a ditto. now I get it
I've always thought external programs shouldn't be allowed for vanilla speedruns. What they're achieving couldn't be reasonably achieved without the tool. You may as well allow things like turbo button controllers and save states too in that case. Neither are modifying the game's code. One is allowing quick button presses with less effort and the other is rewinding the game to a previous state. We have the term tool-assisted speedruns for a reason. They're speedruns that allow the assistance of external tools. Said program by all means is a tool as well as without that tool these speedruns couldn't be done.
Nah this is just game knowledge and a calculator. Plus it would be literally impossible to police people from using a tool like this as it has no detectable effect on the gameplay. They would just hide it and still use it even if it was banned.
I haven’t started the video yet but as someone who is fairly active in the pokemon RNG manipulation community I have asked the question if it’s possible in melee. Hopefully this video is going the direction I think it is.
External tools are always cheating. Always. It perverts speedrunning from being the best at the game to making the time as low as possible. You're not getting better at the game, you're making the game easier.
I hope somebody's epitaph says "He spent his entire youth and middle age discovering how to draw both a beam sword, and a specific turnip from Princess Peach's busum" XD
I think in most cases, yes, eliminating rng is cheating. Imagine the difference if you cheat Game and Watch to only get 9s. However, in the field of speedrunning, I think it is acceptable as it allows for a more even playing field, and lets the speedrunner plan a course without having to endlessly reroll for the perfect run.
Both are correct. A native English speaker would know that. Consistent use of ‘they’ when referring to one person however, sounds weird but once or twice is not at all uncommon.
singular "they" has been in use at least as early as Shakespeare's plays, so it has been correct grammar for a couple hundred years now. it seems like you're the one that struggles with grammar
