Personally, I think the how superman is draw is done on purpose to show his grief and growth in this comic. In the beginning he seemed filled out in his suit, like the usual man of steel, however after he sees dick as batman he seems like a kid dressed as superman lashing out. If you look at him in the panels after he talks with wonder woman, he has that filled out, confidence look about him again. I think it's done this way to show how early on, superman was mad at everyone and hadn't actually come to terms with Bruce's death, which is why he didn't look like superman. He was a man who just lost his best friend. After he got to talk it out and deal with his grief with wonder woman, he was able to move on, which is why he looks calmer and filled out in the suit again. Very well done art work.
Grief, nothing. Bruce and Clark were rewritten as bestest of buddies just so they could fulfill the narrow fantasy of two most popular characters hanging out together as well, like they're a clique in high school. And just so they could write after school specials like this. It almost reads like a PSA on He-Man, reminding you that even the popular kids can have these problems, so you, dear viewer, are going to be fine too. And all within the American entertainment landscape that already is highly nepotistic and uncreative, and has defaulted on NO other narrative in comics except this "mommy mommy, I have super powers, and super responsibilities!" as a way to deliver a shallow allegory for, let's face it, public service recruitment like for military and fire departments. That actually is grotesque. It doesn't seek humanity where humanity can be found, but crams everything into this tiny neighborhood of fast friends who all know each other, so they can harbor a morality of elitism and hero worship. Parasocial relationship to these celebrities who are just "expected a little bit more than the common man". And the common man? Well, they get to be consumers, and expect a little LESS of themselves unless they feel like play-acting as heroes for a day, without commitment. They get to live in fantasy that nothing THEY poor little guys do really matters that much, while their microwave lunch trays are amounting to 12% of world municipal waste with only 4% of the world population to CREATE it. Americans jsut need that little bit of a leg up, apparently, and collect wealth without investing into hadnling the consequences. AND THE BLAME goes to Jeff Bezos, to the CELEBRITIES., for enabling it with Amazon deliveries.
It’s also two different artist’s books that are shown. One artist drew the comic of Batman’s death while another did the comic when Supes is stressing out over Bat’s death.
to be serious i think it's both because writers have really leaned towards the route of Bruce perpetually suffering and that is just his character and because he regularly does what Sups tried to do with wonder woman. he makes his feels far grander than they really are though I assume he does so out of necessity in order to stay in top form even though he doesn't need to
💀💀gotta make sure that plot still kicking, supes probably thinks, "sh*t if his plot armour ran out then we all f**ked"💀 Edit: get this get this, batman is actually alive in this comic, his body was sent back in time by darkseid's beams they didnt actually kill him, that was infact a clone that got toasted, when i found out abt this i was like no f'ing way, batman's plot armour still undefeated😂
People sometime just can’t accept that these two not only don’t hate each other on principle. But they are best friends. For god sakes they spend Christmas together.
I love this issue. That part where Clark and Diana is talking, Clark tries to make it bigger than what he's feeling and Diana just breaks it down. As they watch the sunrise above Gotham. The artwork is beautiful, but the story is just so well written.
I love this issue. I don't think it's out of character for Superman to lash out at Dick like that. He hadn't gotten over Bruce's death and I think it works because it makes Clark all the more human. In some older books, we saw how Bruce reacted in a similar manner to when Clark died. He couldn't believe his best friend died and it took a while for them to accept it. Funny enough, it's Wonder Woman who was there for both of them in these instances and helped them cope and move on, to accept loss and mourn. In the end, Clark does the right thing and sets things right and apologizes to Dick. I love these moments showing Superman's humanity and that even he can have emotional outbursts and have a hard time accepting the loss of a friend.
It is a bit weird. He's essentially the best friend yelling at his friend's adopted son for carrying on the family business instead of shutting it down. I'd have understood it more if he was arguing that Bruce would have wanted a happier life than that for Dick, and a fair argument could be made for that. In one of the animated movies, Wonder Woman questions Batman's decision to train Dick and allow him to fight crime as Robin. Batman says Robin needed to help bring the men who murdered his family to justice. Wonder Woman says, "So he could turn out like you?" Batman quietly replies, "So that he wouldn't". (The context was a pending decision about drumming Captain Marvel out of the Justice League because as Billy Batson he's ten years old, and he hadn't told them. Wonder Woman accused CM of a "lie of omission" because "none of us knew," and Batman interjected "I did," which surprised Captain Marvel (and possibly no one else), so WW turned on Batman and played the Robin card, essentially accusing Batman of having no issue with throwing children into crimefighting.)
@@woodrobinA couple things: It was the young justice TV show you are referring to WW in that scene is concerned over the mere idea of children fighting, but Bruce ultimately wins out because it's pretty clear that he didn't recruit soldiers to have more power, but so they wouldn't take a worse path. For DC as a publisher, they have pushed the trinity as a 3 person balancing act for many years at this point, so it makes sense that when one is down, the others support eachother, it's not something more banal like sexual tension... And why would superman get THAT angry over a grown man not walking away from what he considers his calling? THAT's the crux of it. Superman, in his grief, cannot understand WHY Nightwing, of ALL people, would essentially JUMP at the chance to be BATMAN. it's disgraceful. it's disgusting. It's WRONG on so many fronts...if that's how you imagine it going down. he doesn't see the bigger picture or the purpose. He sees the SON of his DEAD FRIEND, hopping into the throne of his father like a child with the keys to the candy store and it's infuriating.
Comics always present Dick Grayson so well, so articulated, so skilled. I mean he took the mantle of the bat. And everyone just assumed it was indeed batman because of how well he mimicked he mentor. And yet tv shows and movies always crap on him, and i have no idea why.
That's what happens when Showrunners care about brand recognition more than character accuracy. Writers on the other hand are either not as familiar with the characters or not really in charge of those decisions whenever you see stuff like this. Most times they have to adhere to higher-ups idea/image of what they think the character should be like and go from there.
@@fishfossils8858 there's literally a current Nightwing ongoing which also has a ton of awards. I don't think DC LOVES Nightwing but there's almost if not always a Nightwing run going on.
While some may say that it’s out of character for Clark to have any hesitation over Dick taking up the mantle as Batman, I think the angle of him being so stricken with grief adds a whole new layer to it. Superman, to me, is compelling because of his emotions. He is very ideological, and seeing those ideals be tested by genuine and valid sadness is intriguing.
Hell, even the guys at Death Battle manage to get this part right. Superman is (most of the time) the strongest person in the room by a large margin. So an interesting story about him usually doesn't involve a stronger opponent, but instead having Clark in situations about struggling against himself.
@@VioletVile it’s also why Superman can be both admirable and somewhat relatable if written right because even despite all his strength, just like us normal guys, his greatest enemy is himself at times, yet he manages to find a path through his struggles and come out better for it, even if he needs help from others to make it there. It also just makes sense because ultimately Superman is always having to maintain control over himself, something which even with his strength is difficult because people aren’t perfect and were never meant to be in 100% control of themselves 24/7 regardless of their obstacles in life.
Thats a little weird considering Clark's relationship with Dick and also that while alive and injured Bruce had already asked Nightwing to be Batman for a while so he knows that Bruce would want him to take the mantle
Yeah especially considering that since clark knew bruce so well, he'd also know that bruce had a contingency plan for everything including his own death. Its also weird since clark knows dick as well so he should know that dick doesn't want to become batman as well. But i think he just acted in grief
I’m not sure if it’s the right story, but I think after Batman “died” Tim was trying to convince Dick to be Batman then Jason was causing a ruckus as Batman forcing Dick to become Batman.
Dick Grayson, for as much as he hated the idea, was always destined to be Batman after Bruce. Even Bruce knew that Dick was the evolution of Batman. A true leader that could unite every hero under a banner of hope...something he could never do. A beautiful sentiment. He’s truly one of the most important heroes in comic history and I hope someday he gets the respect he deserves.
I mean Bruce's plot armour is probably strong enough to get it out. If you want to get more technical, Bruce did somehow hide himself from Supe while they were in the same room. Not out of the question that he could distract Clark with something and then reach for it. But again: Plot Armour.
@sabishiihito That's why they have to be a bit sneaky with it. If they even try go for the utility belt kryptonite then they have to make sure Supes is distracted first
@@rorschac009oo8 Plot armor is the sole reason why a guy like Batman can do anything against a guy like Superman or Darkseid or any number of villains that should be far out of his league.
It was a smart move by Nightwing tbh. If Gothams villains get it in their head that Batman’s dead, then they’re gonna tear that city apart. By being Batman for Bruce, he can make sure that there’s still something to fear in Gotham
Yeah, over time Damien showed far more connection to Dick than to Bruce. Bruce was his father, and Damien did embrace the no kill rule...emulated Bruce in many ways. However, Dick is who looked after him and treated him as a brother. In several comics Damien takes it VERY PERSONALLY when Dick gets injured.
The idea that Batman's motivation is survivor's guilt, not revenge, is spun positively here. It's also been spun the other way: Bruce Wayne blames himself for his parents' deaths, because he was the one who insisted on going to see The Mark of Zorro, insisted on walking (leaping and gesturing with an imaginary sword) because he was so hyped up about the movie, he was the one who distracted his parents with his antics. He blames himself because he believes his childish self-centered behavior (completely appropriate to an 8 year old child) caused the murders more than Joe Chill, because they never would have encountered him if at any point Bruce had made a different choice. In the positive version, Batman is repaying Bruce's debt (to whomever spared him?). In the darker version, Batman is how Bruce punishes himself for surviving. In the darkest version, Bruce doesn't survive. Bruce dies in the alley with his parents. Batman is what walks out of the alley. The Harley Quinn cartoon showed that version: having placed themselves inside Bruce Wayne's mind, they direct Thomas Wayne's chauffeur to take them to Bruce's most recent memory, and he takes them right back to the theater to see the Waynes exit and see the shooting again . . . because that *is* Bruce Wayne's most recent memory. There aren't any memories after that which belong to Bruce.
That exuberant nature is what Bruce protected in Dick and why he is able to smile and joke so easily today. He wanted Dick to be a better man than himself.
@@Nempo13 Batman: I took Dick under my wing and taught him everything he knows. Wonder Woman: So that he would be like you! Batman: So that he wouldn't.
I think that saying Batman's goal is to avenge his parents death is true, to an extent. That is certainly what originally motivated Bruce to become Batman. But I think over time, his goal became less "avenge my parents death" and more "don't let another child suffer like I have." My friend once said that if you can't picture Batman comforting a hurt or sad child, that's not really Batman.
@@overseerpjoe9477Exactly because at his core he still IS that child himself, alone in that alley. If the "Batman" you have isn't able to immediately commiserate with kids, that ain't Batman, that's the Punisher in a cape.
@@james739123Batman's complex relationship with his foster sons (and daughters to some extent) to me is what made him the best comic character ever. The only other mentor/student dynamic I love is between Barry and Wally. Yet it's different from one another.
I personally can't decide which I like better: One of Bruce's family taking over as Batman, or all of them honoring his legacy while at the same time sticking to their own costumed personas (Nightwing, Red Robin, Batgirl, Batwoman, Oracle, Batwing, Red Hood, etc.). Even Terry McGinnis, despite carrying on the name, considers himself to have made the legacy his own. Quoted: "Nothing against your old partners, but I'm a completely different Batman. I was never a Robin." And even outside the context of that conversation, Terry makes a good point. He may have started as a "next gen" apprentice essentially taking over from where Bruce left off but eventually became synonymous with the Beyond suit and grew into his own hero. The only things he really shares with Bruce's Batman are the name & mission. Yes, the Beyond suit was originally created by Bruce but he retired almost immediately after being introduced in it while Terry was the defining character to make the look iconic. It's HIS Batman, not a continuation of Bruce's like when Dick or others try to replicate his signature costume.
An elseworlds story showed Dick beign so shook up by Bruce's death he created his own batsuit using pieces of the batarmor and the nightwing suit. It looked great.
Dick is different from the rest of the family, he's the perfect Batman like what Bruce said himself. Bruce became Batman out of guilt, Dick has left his trauma behind and became a hero bcs of his heroism. Dick Grayson is what Bruce Wayne is if he ever forgive himself and have some compassion about that night.
@@spacey9707 I do very much like that sentiment about what Bruce could've been if he'd forgiven himself and had more compassion in his heart over that night.
Even though Bruce was just a man and Clark is an alien with godly powers, Clark still had to take the body and run a series of tests and deep scientific analysis just to be sure Bruce was actually dead. Even Superman had doubts Batman could ever be killed.
In this case I realize Clark is acting out of grief, but he always seems to miss the bigger picture. A world without Batman would crumble, which we've seen plenty of times. So you'd think keeping up the fight to protect the innocent would mean more to Bruce than putting respect on his name, which is exactly what Dick's doing.
No it wont. A world without SUperman would crumble. Even Dr. Manhattan said that when he made sure there was always a Superman on every Earth in the multiverse.
@@wildhunt6350 I remember that. Dr Manhattan was gonna wipe supes from reality until he realized the universe needed Superman so he decided not to wipe him out. Really dope comic.
That’s on a cosmic scale. The world needs Batman based on Superman and while it isn’t on a cosmic scale like Superman, it’s still a plausible statement. Besides, as the top person says Superman is for sure acting out of grief. He would be able to see that Dick was right if he was levelheaded but he’s griefing.
You can't blame Dick. It's what Batman would have wanted, Dick is probably the best replacement, and criminals wouldn't be as scared if they knew the real Batman is dead.
Considering the relationship he has with Dick, I would've assumed Superman would've been on the same page as Wonder Woman with Dick taking on the mantle.
Fuck no. Especially when Batman was still the number 1 selling comic book when Nightwing Took over, it's literally considered the best Batman Run in the 21st century and one of the most loved batman comics ever. Only reason why people hate it is they believe Nightwing being Batman disregards Nightwing's legacy as being his own character. Lots of people fucking loved Nightwing as Batman as it gave a new refreshing era on Batman as it can get stale some times. I can obviously tell you don't read the comics and are a casual Batman movie fan at best 😂
I actually think Superman's reaction is pretty reasonable as much as it makes sense for Nightwing to take that mantle to respect it seeing someone do something like that so quickly could make any human have a kind of reaction like that I feel like the beauty of the scenario is that both characters would have reasonable feelings to feel the way they did it makes sense why dick would feel this sort of responsibility to fill that role but it also makes sense why Superman wouldn't be able to so quickly accept adjusting to that role
It's kind of funny if you think about the relationship Clark and Bruce have in comparison to the relationship everyone else *believes* they have. To the outside world they are like living legends, with people seeing Superman as an all-powerful altruistic god-like being and Batman as a literal unstoppable force of vengeance, always striking terror to any would-be ne'er-do-wells who dare to commit crime in his city To other heroes, they are the best of the best but they also seem like completely polar opposite individuals, Superman being rather open and is seen as the greatest of heroes and an inspiration to all, and Batman being a brutal vigilante who hides in the shadows and seeks justice and vengeance for the death of his parents. But Superman and Batman see themselves as they truly are and understand one another: Clark understands Bruce isn't hellbent on beating up every criminal as revenge for his parents death. He is just someone who is grateful to have been spared the night of his parents murder and is trying his best to repay that by ensuring another eight-year old doesn't become an orphan like him. And Bruce understands that Clark isn't some all-powerful god who comes down from the sky to battle evil nor is he a threat to all mankind due to his superpowers being nearly limitless. He is simply a man raised with strong moral values who always sees the best in everyone regardless and wants nothing more than to do the right thing.
It is canon that Bruce keeps Clark's favorite brand of coffee in the batmobile. They are brothers, they joke with each other even. It is a known thing that if they are worried about imposters they tell a very subtle and personal joke. The fact so many writers ignore this annoys me to no end. These two know each other better than their love interests could ever hope to. Frankly only 2 people on the planet know Bruce better than Clark, Alfred and Dick.
Well, the whole "Bruce isn't hellbent on beating up every criminal as revenge for his parent's death" depends strongly on who is writing him. A lot of writers have it so Bruce is out there beating up criminals because he wants vengeance, others because he believes in justice, others because he blames himself for his parent's deaths, etc. etc.
It’s out of character for Superman not to instantly support Dick as Batman. Superman is practically his second father, not just an uncle. Remember the name: Nightwing.
i mean its not that he doesnt understand hes just in denial that Bruce is actually dead, most comics dont show it that often but they are dare i say it superfriends, Superman often has made exceptions for Batman and hes probably the person he trusts the most on earth considering he literally hands him kryptonite in the case he ever went rogue
Definitely out of character. The fact that Dick takes on the name of a Kryptonian myth as his vigilante/alias shows how much he respects, looks up and takes inspiration from Clark and how much Clark sees Dick as more than just 'the ally's ward' - I've always seen Dick as a parellel to Scott in Marvel, how Scott is the child of both Xavier and Magneto's teachings and Dick sharing ideals of Superman and Batman (the idealized and the pragmatic).
This is beautiful. What always enraged me is that all the movies (and games) depict them as enemies. The reality is nothing further from it. They were the best friends (or are, depending where in the comics you are lol)
I think what snapped Superman out of this anger was hearing The new NIghtwing batman say "Clark" in a Authority Voice just like Bruce would do when things would get tense he would use Supes human given name
I like how this was explored as moment of genuine grief and misunderstanding instead of just a cheap way to make Superman cartoonishly evil and have to be killed or something.
"Is there something in this belt that's really going to (I'm guessing it's supposed to say "hurt me")" Hasn't Superman not learned anything for theses years? Batman always has some kryptonite in his belt.
Yes but that's not really important for this rundown, nor was it known by the characters or audience at the time the comic was made. (But yeah it was weird time travel Bat mythos stuff)
Yep. Darkseid's attack sent Bruce back in time, and Bruce (in the past) laid down the clues that will carry into the present, of which Tim Drake (in the Red Robin run) will find and bring him back to his proper era.
This is a beautiful story and a fitting transition to the era of Cheerful Batman and Angry Robin. To me it still makes sense that Dick knows how much Batman as a symbol means to the world...as is though, I can only hope that if this ever happens again, Dick turns down the mantle. Nightwing in my honest opinion is just as important of a symbol and needs to remain until Dick himself retires. I feel like Tim would be a decent choice of replacement in the event that he is of age, just, this story honestly helps cement what I have always believed about Dick: He is the best of Clark and Bruce put together in one character, and deserves to have that chance to shine outside of the shadow of The Trinity and JLA.
Bruce Wayne most definitely wanted Dick to be the next Batman, becoming Nightwing and moving to Bludhaven was basically his last bit of preparation for the cowl. Clark knows Bruce would want Grayson to put on the cowl BUT grief makes folks act out of character so this reaction makes sense.
Superman looks a lot like Brandon Routh in this one. Also, that's a pretty terrifying Superman moment, like on that Injustice level of him about to snap.
One of the things I've always loved about this comic was seeing Clark's emotional side, shaken. It's not always you see Superman as a "human", because he always tries to keep composure, as a symbol of hope he doesn't allow himself to show this kind of "vulnerability". The way he deals with grief feels so palpable, and the art and character expressions sold this exceptionally well.
it’d be cool to get a shot story run where the same sort of events happen but it really delves into the grief one would feel, imagine being bruce, knowing Clark is the strongest person on earth and virtually unkillable, you save the world and universe together at times then all of a sudden, he’s dead. Gone. No more. it’d be a fun delve into a superhero psyche dealing with loss
I love a thoughtful, nuanced super hero story that is written by adults for adult sensibilities. Superman's concerns about Dick wearing Batman's uniform comes from a sincere place, and not some overly simplistic soap opera sentiment. The scene actually made me say "oh, yeah. That's true. Bruce is costume, not Batman." And the artwork is incredibly expressive, too. It makes the run-of-the-mill writing (esp in the films and TV shows) sound pretty pedestrian by comparison.
Final Crisis is an experience I will never forget. It was a bit frustrating and uncomprehensible at times but in the end it was worth it, especially for moments like this.
I remember when wonder woman killed batman and in a blind rage superman strangled wonder woman with her own lasso gotta say Bruce Wayne has some great friends
It feels fairly out of character for Superman to attack him, I think he’d know Bruce would want Dick to keep it going. Now if Jason were doing it and started killing people, I could actually see Superman getting very pissed.
It's very much out of character but you have to remember that Superman is completely overcome with grief, he's not thinking with logic, he's running off pure emotion. He's not trying to hurt nor fight Dick but he can't grasp why Dick would wear the skin of his father. It's why when Dick does get to him, Superman seeks console in WW and apologizes to Dick, he realizes he was in the wrong. It's a perfect usage of a character break because it's a realistic usage of it. People don't think right when they're consumed by their emotions.
I get that Clark was grieving over the loss of his friend, but he has no say in how the legacy of the Batman continues. Whoever carries the mantle is a decision that should only be made by members of the Bat family. Bruce may have started it, but Alfred, Nightwing, Red Hood, Robin, Oracle / Batgirl etc all contributed to it, so whoever wears the cape and cowl should be decided by them.
What I found touching about this was that the mortality (immortality) of superman was the core of the tale. We don't really know if superman can die of old age. At least as a single human lifetime. His acceptance of Dick as the new Batman is both accepting his immortality and acknowledging that while Bruce was mortal, his legacy will passed in for generations. Clark Kent may lose his lovers and outlive his family, but Superman will always have Batman as a friend.
I forget the comic but Clark managed to extend Lois' life to near immortality (she has to keep undergoing a treatment every hundred years or such). So he never loses Lois. The comic takes place at the point humanity has left Earth and our sun has enlarged rendering life on Earth impossible. The comic shows superman looking over the husk of Earth and thinking about things. Clark comments that the legacy of Batman is so big that every human planet seems to have a Batman, doing their best to live up to the legend. With most of the ones shown in the comic having an ancestry that goes back to the original batfamily and teachings passed down from them. Clark keeps in contact with their descendants as he can. He tells them about Bruce, shares stories of his human brother THAT HE STILL MISSES. We are talking millions of years later and the man doesn't let go of a single memory of Bruce. That is true brotherhood.
Seeing Wonder Woman actually help Superman instead of using his grief and anger to her own advantage feels weird but also nice after following the Injustice storyline
People have forgotten over the years just how close Bruce and Clark are because of the stupid Batman can defeat gods complex. The 2 would basically die for each other and supes has shown to care deeply for his homie.
@@simonmann4922 true but the difference was that wally was proud to be kid flash and idolized Barry as the flash. When he became the flash he felt like a pretender and it wasn't until he accepted he was the flash that he surpassed his limits. With dick Grayson he left the robin mantle behind and became his own hero Nightwing. He wanted to separate himself as much as he could from Batman but still be part of the family. Becoming batman back paddles a lot of the effort he did in becoming his own hero which is why it's so hard for him. Could I see him becoming batman yes of course but it would definitely be something that dick would struggle with unlike maybe Damian or Tim Drake
@@simonmann4922 I think Young justice season 1 portrayed Dick very well. The mission that results in them needing therapy after where he admits the thing that drives batman to make the decisions he does is something he couldn't do once put in that situation. He didn't want to be batman anymore which could be why he grows into his own mantle as Nightwing.
honestly I think that nightwing becoming batman is a fantastic idea. Imagine being batman's arch nemesis and learning that he's finally dead. You can finally go back to the shadows again and do what you want, you're in the middle of a crime and then BATMAN comes out of nowhere and dropkicks you.
@@jmgonzales7701 yeah but grabbing the dude's son while charging up heat vision doesn't look good for him, plus if this is how he would react to something this small imagine how he could react to something big.
@@kwayneboy1524 I wouldn't call grieving over your best friend's death "something this small." Clark's just as human as the rest of us. It's far more dangerous to estrange him from humanity and hold him to impossible standards.
Superman has a point, like Dick could take the role of Batman and modify his costume but make it clear he wasn't. I guess this way makes Batman more of a legend to scare the criminals though. Also this is what the real Batman wanted so Dick was in the right
Can we talk about how much better this version of Wonder Woman is than Injustice WW? Injustice WW manipulated his grief to get the super-dick, while this one tells him to feel however he wants, but just tells him that he’s grieving and this it. Chad WW
This is a great story and how Superman deals with grief without the overdone “He cant control his R A G E so he’s a mass murderer now” trope. I still never liked whole “Batman is the real person, Bruce is the costume” angle of his character. I feel like it ironically simplifies the complex traumas he deals with.
It's objectively true if you look at it though. When he's Batman, the only thing he's hiding about his true self is his face. When he's Bruce, the only true part of himself he's showing is his face. He can't react in situations the way he naturally would as Bruce because it would become too obvious that he's Batman. I'm guessing he probably doesn't have to worry about the converse. It's highly unlikely he's ever been Batman and his initial instinct in a situation is to throw money at it, or be diplomatic when kicking someone's head in will work equally as well. I'd imagine he has to constantly hold himself back as Bruce from doing what he naturally would
