How the 60-Year-Old IRS Computer System Failed on Tax Day

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On Tax Day 2018, the IRS electronic filing system went down. Turns out the government's computers were still partially relying on code 60 years old written for gigantic IBM mainframes like the Martinsburg Monster. What happened?
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1 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 1,2 тыс.

@Geforce2187 5 лет назад

"Mr. Simpson, this government computer can process over 9 tax returns per day. Did you really think you could fool it?"

@Mi_Fa_Volare 5 лет назад

I was thinking about the exact same scene.

@NewPaulActs17 5 лет назад

@@Mi_Fa_Volare i need an episode name pls

@Geforce2187 5 лет назад

@@NewPaulActs17 Season 9, Episode 20- The Trouble With Trillions

@h2oaddict28 4 года назад

If I don't see it it's not illegal

@MrMatteNWk 3 года назад

An older boy told me to do it.

@smittenthekitteninmittens2679 5 лет назад

i don't understand why tech tales isn't as popular as other LGR things..i could listen to Clint talk about old/new/obsolete tech all day long!!!

@h0lx 5 лет назад

probably the research time vs duration of content

@smittenthekitteninmittens2679 5 лет назад

@@h0lx the amount of work/research that goes into these videos must be CRAZY!!..i

@ClintChance 5 лет назад

Really?

@Yusuke_Denton 5 лет назад

They have about as many views if not more than his other videos.

@smittenthekitteninmittens2679 5 лет назад

@@Yusuke_Denton watch his anniversary video

@saleendriver 5 лет назад

Being a former IBMer , I enjoyed this video. Well researched, well done. I am so glad I found this page a year ago. Thank you once again sir.

@lothar71 5 лет назад

@@Michael-zj3cn The only pathetic one is you.

@P.W.R. 5 лет назад

@@Michael-zj3cn Someone piss in your cheerios this morning or what?

@fullyqualifiedgendergremli9567 5 лет назад

What what is wrong with you dude

@atreyu4ws 5 лет назад

I am a COBOL programmer. Some of the proprietary code I work with was written before I was born! Companies still use it because it doesn't break too often and it's relatively simple to fix (unless it's a huge pile of spaghetti of course). We don't use physical cylinders and tape for storage anymore, but like LGR mentioned, it is emulated. Notice, the new firmware failed, not the old software or mainframe ;)

@JasonZakrajsek 5 лет назад

The old firmware failed. They didn’t update to the new one.

@GrumpyIan 5 лет назад

Tape storage is still a thing, and is rather cheap at roughly $60 a terabyte.

@SuperPickle15 5 лет назад

@@GrumpyIan tape is only used for long term archives. It's not used for everyday use because it's read and write time sucks.

@ruikazane5123 5 лет назад

'Legacy' to say.

@TheDavo10001 5 лет назад

I just had this image of COBOL programmers looking a bit like Indiana Jones exploring through a cobwebby old ruin somewhere in search of elusive files or subroutines

@jimmyvau 5 лет назад

The financial world runs on IBM Mainframes and COBOL

@BrooksSeanRobinson 5 лет назад

James Vaughn A lot of the travel industry (airlines) use ibm mainframes too. The company I worked for trained us on TPF assembly because no schools teach it.

@ImNotADeeJay 5 лет назад

true, very few bank CIOs are willing to risk their bonuses trying to migrate their transactional workloads to distributed environments (or cloud).

@johnmccallum8512 5 лет назад

Hal I hope that my bank NEVER puts any of their banking on the "cloud" stupid idea.

@ImNotADeeJay 5 лет назад

@@johnmccallum8512 I am afraid that is something likely to happen in the mid/long run. Mainframe is a fading technology, so don't freak if your bank has his core running in AWS/Azure/Google or the likes in ten or fifteen years.

@Fudwinkle 5 лет назад

It's only the lower stack these days, there's a modern cloud on top 🙂 The vital stuff is on the mainframe (which uses relational databases these days, not IMS), and there's probably not only one. The bank I work for has multiple backup mainframes at different sites with diesel generators, so there's redundancy in case of one failing. (The power did screw up at the one at my site last year and the diesel generator, which is a ship class engine, made the whole building shake lol)

@LazerLord10 5 лет назад

One thing I want to know about those old mainframes is what those tapes do and why they move in that iconic way.

@danrbarlow 5 лет назад

The machine's internal RAM was very small, smaller than the cache on a modern CPU. They move that way because they are reading individual records from the tape, true "random access".

@HuskyGamersUNITE Год назад

The tapes are data tapes. Like the hard drives that succeeded them, they read and write data from the mainframe to the tape magnetically. So each little increment and winding, the machine is reading the little bits of data recorded onto the tape and writing to another.

@thetman0068 5 лет назад

This is why you always file early. Be Ned Flanders. Don't be the rest of Springfield.

@lajya01 3 года назад

Not too early though or you'll be the guinea pig for the new changes.

@JHMBB2 5 лет назад

Oh man, my dad worked at the IRS since the late 80s, I wonder if he's seen these old IBM main frames. I did walk into the building once as a child in the early 90s, it looked a lot like some of the footage shown here! **Edit: That computer chronicles episode listed is showing footage from the exact office i visi ted as kid, might be why it looked so familiar!

@KentHambrock 5 лет назад

My wife is from just outside Martinsburg and had never heard of the Martinsburg Monster. Entertainingly, she's working as a contractor on a NASA project currently that still uses Fortran and C code written in the 80's.

@dirkflannigan5271 5 лет назад

There is a lot of code supporting scientific libraries that originated in the 60s, and written in fortran. Look at the history of BLAS for example. A lot of really good techniques and algorithms came out of the 60s and 70s, and just don't need updating other than to compile on newer systems. Mathematics doesn't move that quickly.

@KentHambrock 5 лет назад

Yep, totally aware that Fortran is still used today in mathematical situations. It's supposed to be one of the most efficient languages for certain math related tasks, but sadly that's not the case here. Almost none of the Fortran involves math related functions and nearly all of it is written as poorly as possible. Updating any piece means going over thousands of lines of code to make sure it will compile with the current compilers. xD

@johnfrancisdoe1563 5 лет назад

Kent Hambrock A satellite developed and launched in the 1980s with extremely modern tech (first sat to space qualify the Intel 486) also reused 1960s FORTRAN code that was once used for a historic satellite measuring the same natural phenomena. Nothing wrong about that.

@KentHambrock 5 лет назад

@@johnfrancisdoe1563 As long as the code was written well, it doesn't matter what language you use, but I get to hear daily how poorly this code was written. Written in ways that bugged the compiler into working when there was no good reason why it should have accepted the code. Issues with the compiler that have since been fixed so the code can't compile.

@big8news 5 лет назад

Sadly NASA does have anything that flys anymore thanks to number 44 he ended that fast.

@kyleheckman 5 лет назад

A lot of old large companies that adopted computers early on face this problem, it’s hard / expensive to migrate all that data and write new code for modern machines without creating issues. and since it still works, for the most part, getting the budget and resources approved is a challenge

@CemetryGator 5 лет назад

Another big problem is as long as the old system is in use, you need to keep it up to date. Which means you need a team of people working on that system. Which means at some point, you either need to stop supporting that old system, or you can easily end up supporting it indefinitely. So yeah, doing a switchover on a running system could mean you end up paying for doing the development twice.

@Faddnn 5 лет назад

It's cheaper to update the tech. It takes up less space, uses less power, does the job faster, less maintenance and down time, cheaper parts.

@DinnerForkTongue 5 лет назад

The flipside is what we see here: CATASTROPHIC mass system failures.

@TheAkashicTraveller 5 лет назад

It's also the same reason British rail is so bad. We got there first before the technology was perfected and are now trying to hold a very old system together while scraping together funds for upgrades.

@BlindLibrary 5 лет назад

An awkward Hell of a case of "Houston, we have a problem!"

@Hyreia 5 лет назад

In their defense, if it ain't broke don't fix it... And now it broke. So time to fix it.

@robertpryor7225 5 лет назад

Penny saved... Than the devil you don't know

@johnl.knowdy6152 5 лет назад

It's a state of mind, some people like patching, some people like fixing. In this case, it's the government, so they'll not go bankrupt I guess.

@MrSaywutnow 4 года назад

"So time to fix it." Preferably before all the remaining COBOL programmers die of old age.

@wta1518 4 года назад

They’ll just get the money from the taxes Oh wait...

@doubtful_seer 3 года назад

I can find articles of congresspeople warning the IRS needed to update their technology going back to 1989. 2021 and they still refuse to do anything to make things run more smoothly, as shown by how they’re handling sending the stimulus out to SSDI and SSI recipients.

@jonathanellis6097 5 лет назад

It's mad and a little worrying when you think about the amount of old, overworked, and abused, infrastructure the modern world is dependent on!!

@cactusman1771 5 лет назад

If it isn't broke don't fix it. There are places that still use roman aqueducts and roads. There are railroads that still use tracks from the 19th century.

@lordofthecats6397 5 лет назад

@@cactusman1771The policy of many governments and businesses is "If it ain't broke, I won't pay to fix it" which leads to a lot of problems ranging from Flint Michigan to Heartbleed

@Chevdriver 5 лет назад

A few years ago i worked at an very old coal power plant, we installed fibre-optic-cables in the server/control room... i was shocked to see all this old technology, looked like homer simpsons workplace. They told me whatever you do, dont touch that one connector sitting loosely on some "control-panel" (only held in place by gravity and love) or else the whole plant can shut down! After working for a while ive noticed the connector was slightly tilted, i was like holy f*ck how did this happened and put it back on immediately ( i dont now what caused it to tilt, maybe my elbow touched the cable of the connector) The next day they told us "We had few sides of error messages showing up on our system, you guys know what happened?"

@ped7g 5 лет назад

Exactly... although the idea of replacing those with some brand new buzzword cloud SaaS angular thing doesn't really lessen my worries, quite opposite...

@spottydog4477 5 лет назад

You should be more worried about windows 10

@thecomputerinside 5 лет назад

sounds like the Martinsburg Monster was an absolute unit?

@isaakwelch3451 5 лет назад

Imagine the sheer size of the lad

@martinbrewer7629 5 лет назад

@@isaakwelch3451 Don't have to... Couldn't fit the thing in my trousers, so now I sling it around my neck and tell everyone it's a hamburger eating python..

@vincentlamb3436 5 лет назад

Seeing the shelves stacked with magnetic tape reels was refreshing.

@Chaos89P 5 лет назад

@TheComputerInside All computers at the time, even including the snarky one from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, were. Most of them were huge beasts! @@isaakwelch3451 Many computers back then were about the size of a large room.

@dinitroacetylen 5 лет назад

It was an absolute unit, and now it's an obsolete unit.

@Zeropointill 5 лет назад

ah yeah, new LGR video. This is something i can wake up with a coffee to.

@BeardofBeesPool 5 лет назад

Boo-erns

@MrIfrit 5 лет назад

Systems too complex to be replaced. Pretty soon we'll dealing with these technologies the same way the adeptus mechanicus deal with theirs.

@akimbofurry2179 5 лет назад

Is this harisy I hear?

@HappyBeezerStudios 4 года назад

I'll prepare the toasters.

@crowdemon_archives 4 года назад

Tbf, they don't really have manuals lol

@ZeroWalker26 5 лет назад

fun thing is the labor office and tax office here in my city in Sweden still uses Dos system so when there is a problem the whole system can be down for weeks because they only have 1 single man that can dos and the old system and the fun part that man is old has retired but they have to call him in away. I told them to hire me because I grew with DOS and that retired man could teach me what I need to learn before he kicks the bucket. Or better yet they should maybe upgrade.

@cleverlyblonde 5 лет назад

Or try to virtualise so they can make snapshots and backups easier, then begin the work to upgrade?

@Frankfurtdabezzzt 5 лет назад

As a sysadmin, this is what my nightmares look like. Those poor guys at the IRS IT...

@420sakura1 3 года назад

You really feel sorry for them?

@Frankfurtdabezzzt 3 года назад

@@420sakura1 Yes. They're the IT guys working for the IRS, not the IRS themselves.

@lajya01 3 года назад

I work in a tax agency in Canada. I've seen many experienced consultants and high profile service providers(Oracle, IBM, Microsoft, etc..) freak out when dealing with our systems. The amount of inter-operability with systems spawning many generations and architectures is just insane in those places.

@codingmasters 5 лет назад

COBOL: Completely Obsolete Business-Oriented Language

@Dimondminer11 3 года назад

You sir speak the stuff of LEGEND

@captainkeyboard1007 2 года назад

That is a "good" description for an outdated computer language.

@KuraIthys 5 лет назад

Ah, obtuse, opaque legacy code. Nothing quite like it. XD Bonus incomprehensibility points for it involving assembly code for an obsolete hardware platform. I bet much of that assembly isn't all that well documented either. Yeah, that's quite the liability huh. XD

@toymachine4253 5 лет назад

IBM's idea of job security

@neeneko 5 лет назад

assembly is its own documentation, it tells you exactly what the computer is doing!

@C0Ntro11Da7rail 5 лет назад

@@neeneko unless its an assembly code specific to that mainframe like say instead of mov its go or something or it might be just bare machime code

@KuraIthys 5 лет назад

@@neeneko I take it you've never tried to actually read uncommented assembly before? ;p What you say is technically correct, but... In practice... I mean, technically a program written using esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuck Is also self-documenting, but... It sure isn't going to be a pleasant experience making sense of it. And, in theory, the output of movfuscator is indeed also 'self-documenting', but... Good luck with that. Source code comments exist for a reason. Depending on whether it's assembly as written by a programmer, or decompilation of the raw bytecode, assembly may contain relative jumps defined only by an offset, unlabelled variables, magic numbers, etc. Sure you can read that if you're desperate enough, but it's not a trivial task.

@TheExileFox 5 лет назад

@@KuraIthys at least it's not written in visual basic or lolcode

@cromulence 5 лет назад

This is utterly unsurprising. I work in a bank and the primary critical system is called ATLAS. Written in the 1980s, again in COBOL, it is an amazingly flexible (if not antiquated) piece of software, comprised of millions of lines of code to do just about every single financially related function you can think of. It was originally written to run on Tandem NonStop computers, which were bought by Compaq, who were then bought by HP. The crux of it is that a new mainframe was bought for each branch, which not only cost serious cash, but is the last of the Itaniums. Old code is great when it works, but this needs round the clock modifications to keep up with changes that happen in the finance sector. There are contractors making serious cash from their COBOL skills. Yes, eventually these systems will disappear, but the effort needed to replace them is huge.

@BlindLibrary 5 лет назад

Hugely necessary for the "endangered species" status that it's been for so long.We can't let this code die;Companies breathe this code every day without realizing it,if not almost by some sort of a Brave New World hypnopedia session.

@BXJ-mi9mm 5 лет назад

@@BlindLibrary Why do you care?

@BlindLibrary 5 лет назад

Without it, the modern world crashes and shatters, like your glass IPhone screens.

@BlindLibrary 5 лет назад

Then again, the modern world will never truly appreciate the happenings, let alone the results, of yester-year.

@HappyBeezerStudios 4 года назад

...and perform like ass due to lack of optimization and under powered systems.

@Ryusuta 5 лет назад

I legitimately didn't know I'd be spending my morning listening to a video about IRS tax computers from the 1950s. And now that I am, I'm glad I did so. =)

@katymccoy5581 5 лет назад

Didn't think I would on my break but meh

@YoshiShoopDaWhooper 5 лет назад

I'm surprised no one filed their income as $60000'); DROP TABLE taxes;-- and broke the system

@lvl10cooking 5 лет назад

I'm pretty sure despite the age of the system that they sanitized their inputs.

@llamaboyjoey 5 лет назад

I think this code MIGHT be a little to old for SQL injection to work... lol

@lvl10cooking 5 лет назад

@@llamaboyjoey I didn't even think of that, this shit is older than most of the parents of the people watching this.

@Abdega 5 лет назад

@Onno Inada I guess the only way to try something like that would be to actually know COBOL

@BlindLibrary 5 лет назад

Or not... Just a gutt feeling.

@wspolczynnik_poissona 5 лет назад

Have you play Pac-Man? Then you've played Taxman without even knowing it!

@MisterTalkingMachine 5 лет назад

''I used to be a pinball freak That's where you'd find me every week But now it's Pacman Yeah it's the Pacman I love to gobble up those dots Keep pumpin' quarters in the slots They call it Pacman Yeah it's the Pacman''

@GTcroove 5 лет назад

Nice AVGN reference right there.

@ivanmiranda841 5 лет назад

One of my favourites AVGN episodes

@thetman0068 5 лет назад

Mmmmm classic AVGN

@wareforcoin5780 5 лет назад

JUST rewatched that episode! Love it!

@M3n747 5 лет назад

In my city there's a car repair shop that still to this day uses a Commodore 64 in conjunction with custom-built software and hardware for balancing axles.

@carlospulpo4205 5 лет назад

IF assets > income DO_Audit ELSE Do_Audit END IF STOP RUN.

@BichaelStevens 5 лет назад

IRS when you owe 12$: if (debt > 0) { Audit() } IRS when they owe you $14000 in tax returns and fuckups: while (true) { return 0; }

@manfrommars3486 5 лет назад

Just look at all those Model M's!!! (And some Model F's, as well!!!). Sorry, just a few more "!"'s to reinforce the concept: !!! !!!

@SaberusTerras 5 лет назад

Oh damn, Unisys? I've dealt with them, they hire the cheapest they can find for field techs. Makes sense they'd skimp on talent all the way up the chain. And the DS8880 is no f-ing joke. IBM does not fool around with the big iron, it's their bread and butter. They put out a firmware update, they aren't asking you to consider updating, they're telling you to update.

@ruikazane5123 5 лет назад

They're called IBM for a reason!

@godfreypoon5148 5 лет назад

@@ruikazane5123 "Involuntary Bowel Movement"?

@buggsyspam 5 лет назад

I laughed out at the Unisys part. It was a great company to work for in the 90's. like so many other companies, they suffered from the tech bubble bust and cut corners wherever they could.

@MrSaywutnow 4 года назад

@@godfreypoon5148 "Involuntary Bowel Movement"? Sounds like what was happening at a lot of IRS offices on tax day.

@MidnightThunderYT 4 года назад

@Godfrey Poon. IBM = International Business Machines

@ryanpaaz 5 лет назад

From what I’ve read applications like this are perfect use cases for mainframes. High reliability, high access, zero acceptable errors. Banks use mainframes too. I can only imagine if the IRS tried to cobble something together in Visual Basic.

@johnfrancisdoe1563 5 лет назад

Nothing in that old code failed on that day. The failure was in a top of the line modern "high reliability" disk system, which has apparently caused other high profile failures around the world. It was apparently so unreliable that UNISYS no longer trusted the quality of IBM firmware updates.

@TheRic89 5 лет назад

This was because they didn’t update the microcode of a storage device. Mainframes run the financial world. Part of their strengths is that new IBM systems are compatible and can run assembler code from 50 years ago. No one is running 60 year old mainframes. They have new systems like a z14 that are software compatible to the original system 360

@crashk6 5 лет назад

NEWS FLASH: "IRS losses millions in cash, due to a bug in cache.."

@TracksWithDax 5 лет назад

NEWS FLASH: "IRS's last clash passes with a hard-and-fast loss of cash, due to internal lash of low-class located in cache..."

@kendramarie6924 4 года назад

It’s nothing to them they get it back

@denelson83 5 лет назад

They had to COBOL together a working solution.

@johnfrancisdoe1563 5 лет назад

Bonus fact: the IBM 360 series is still being made and upgraded. The compatible successors included the 370 series, the 3090 series and now the z-series. It has great virtual machine and SSE support since at least the 1980s.

@coyote_den 5 лет назад

"That morning it detected a deadlock condition during a warm start" ...a warm start. on tax day. Who had the bright idea to reboot the most important computer in the IRS on tax day???

@MrSaywutnow 4 года назад

Maybe they had some other problem, and they were asked if they'd tried turning it off and on again.

@andriealinsangao613 3 года назад

BLOODY INDIAN TECH SUPPORT!

@GobblesPlays 5 лет назад

my god your documentary style videos are good. Good job man, love your stuff!

@TheGuyWhoIsSitting 5 лет назад

Whenever someone tells me companies and the government use only up to date stuff and learning any older languages is pointless I always think of how many companies and things rely on legacy hardware.

@lordanjucero 5 лет назад

People: "We love America!" Also People: "The Government needs Money to Operate? Un-American!"

@jakobole 4 года назад

Unless it's money for the military. Then it's suddenly ok again

@confusedgentleman 3 года назад

I can understand why people don't want to pay taxes when all of it either goes back into the pockets of politicians and their big business friends, or into the military industrial complex, or the broken healthcare system, or the police, or the myriad of other complete disaster expenditures. Every dollar I've ever lost to taxation was pissed away, and that's bullshit.

@NathanChisholm041 5 лет назад

You have increased my knowledge! I thankyou....

@recklesssquirel5962 5 лет назад

Ahhh the government. Always trying to get the last drop of usefullness wringed out, no matter how much of an issue its causing, how old it is, or how much they are screwing themselves over by not updating.

@KuraIthys 5 лет назад

Big business is the same. The sunk cost fallacy is a very strong motivator. I remember a story of a company that had a 1970's mainframe that the management insisted be used to perform payroll and similar tasks. The poor technician that had to deal with the unreliable ancient machine, it's obscure codebase, and getting it doing it's job was undestandably frustrated. To get the data in and out of the system involved the use of a laptop that was in it's own right thousands of times more powerful than the mainframe, and the power usage of that old machine was also insane, as were the data loss risks of using it. But no, the company had paid $1.5 million for it, and they damn well were going to use it. Even though that laptop being used to support this mainframe could've done the job by itself much faster, more reliably, safer, and many orders of magnitude more cheaply, but no, we spent the money on this thing, we're going to use it, come hell or high water... So yeah... Try not to get yourself caught up in sunk cost fallacies. You're hurting yourself in the name of trying to save yourself...

@recklesssquirel5962 5 лет назад

@@KuraIthys i disagree. Big business has motivation to stay somewhat updated. Government, not so much

@keithbrown7685 5 лет назад

So it's like. 'we're here in Gallipoli ... we've been here a while... we're losing like crazy ... but we've sent so many men here, how do we justify that? send more! that's what! ' : )

@WintrBorn 5 лет назад

Part of it is also the "cost" of transferring data to a new system. Even if half those tapes are obsolete with the people stored on them dead, there are still millions of people they may need to reference. Then the "cost" of training people to the new system, and disposal of the old, security, and the cost inflation due to government contract, and it becomes a mess. Of course, teaching people to use punch cards and COBOL can't be cheap, either...

@cactusman1771 5 лет назад

@@WintrBorn the main hurtle is getting money. The government doesn't like giving out money even to itself.

@veraxis9961 5 лет назад

Something about seeing massive rows of IBM tape computers just makes me irrationally happy.

@TheBurg229 5 лет назад

COBOL programmer here. COBOL still handles the majority of your financial transactions.

@ve2dmn 5 лет назад

"Majority" as in 95% probably. Banks are very slow to move.

@RaymondHng 5 лет назад

Along with CICS, right?

@calidude1114 5 лет назад

Since the 1960s IBM mainframes have been backward compatible meaning that code written 50 years ago will run on the latest mainframes with little to no modifications. Hence there is no incentive to rewrite the old code. This was IBMs crowning achievement for its customers saving them millions. As a comparison apps written for my iPad 1 will not work on my latest iPad. Xbox games don’t run on the latest Xbox one x.

@RaymondHng 5 лет назад

@@calidude1114 That's because you have only executable code and do not have the source code to your iOS apps unlike enterprise IT departments that develop and maintain their COBOL source code. If they had only executable code to their programs, then they will be limited from using those executables on later versions of the operating system.

@calidude1114 5 лет назад

@@RaymondHng - No you are wrong, The source code needs to change if the underlying systems software changes without supporting the older system functions. For example source code that called systems API functions that no longer exist or work differently. That breaks the source code! Hence the source code needs to be rewritten.

@Henchman1977 5 лет назад

Everytime Clint says IMF I think Mission Impossible.

@KnuxKitsune 5 лет назад

I'm glad I'm not alone. "The IMF was created in the '60s" you say? The TV series began in 1966

@MetalTrabant 4 года назад

I think of International Monetary Fund...

@rwdplz1 5 лет назад

The project John Titor's IBM 5100 was going to be used to fix

@tommylakindasorta3068 5 лет назад

I prefer to use mine strictly for time travel purposes.

@NoNameAtAll2 5 лет назад

El. Psy. Kongroo

@naviconnectionmusic6204 5 лет назад

YES TECH TALES IS BACK!

@StewartRussell 5 лет назад

More of a story about contractors failing to patch hardware drivers from 2016 than problems with reliable code from the 1960s

@sh4dowde 5 лет назад

We have some old servers in our company, no one dares to touch. They are from the 80s and you have to use their databases through old telnet interfaces. They were so scared to replace them, that when a new computer system came to replace it, they didn't dare and made the new system get it's core data from the old system and keep it synchronized between them... we are one of germany's top10 biggest companys and I fear the day this system fails.

@peterjessen1984 5 лет назад

good job IRS. Really outdid yourselves there.

@jhoughjr1 5 лет назад

Murderducky government efficiency

@urielc918 5 лет назад

Outdated*

@Mrmando369 5 лет назад

Nope it's the government keep cutting funds

@robertpryor7225 5 лет назад

"Gots to admit, they are fair and efficient" - Adolph H.

@perolozac01 5 лет назад

Don't ever be discouraged or think no one is watching or cares for these Tech Tales. More people watch and enjoy these than you're probably aware of. It's certainly one of my personal favorites. Now, back to doing my taxes...

@nicholasrockstroh6920 5 лет назад

This was fantastic! My father works for the IRS and probably remembers the shift to microcomputers. I should ask him about all of this stuff...

@DinnerForkTongue 5 лет назад

Show this to him and tell us of the results!

@mkruizv 5 лет назад

I love this stories. Keep going, Clint. This one in particular strikes me close, because i have my first corporate job in years and taxing has changed in my country.

@SethWistful 5 лет назад

Gosh dang I love when companies white knuckle obsolete technology for far too long. The organizer side of me is itching to transfer all the old data into a more manageable format lol

@JimFortune 5 лет назад

COBOL was out of date when I started programming in the 70s.

@darksepheroth4627 5 лет назад

Please do one about the history of woodgrain electronics called Teak Tales.

@outtheredude 5 лет назад

I'll need to pause that video frequently to pee, get married, have kids, get put in a retirement home, ... 'cause '70s. ;-)

@MrClawt 5 лет назад

I have watched every LGR video from the old school sipping Dr. Pepper days, and this is probably the most fascinating. People just simply accept that computers assist with just about everything today, but seeing how much effort had to be put in to place to tell people that the a computer doing your taxes was not a bad thing just shows how much the world has changed. The whole using lines of code that pre-date the moon in a world that just took a photo of a black hole is just mind boggling, but also a testament to what happens to good code.

@ZipplyZane 5 лет назад

What's really important is that Congress is trying to pass a law saying that the IRS will not be allowed to provide free tax filing.

@yumann 5 лет назад

BRAVO! Talks about taxes and IRS are boring. LGR: Hold my beer.

@shortshotgunman5582 Год назад

"Even if this building was filled with hay it would put the fear of god in all of us."

@adammedbery4454 5 лет назад

There is nothing inherently wrong with assembly or COBOL. The problem lies with the number of people who can work with it. Every year more and more people retire and leave an extensive knowledge gap behind

@johnl.knowdy6152 5 лет назад

That is true. The fact it is written in an old language ... is not really relevant. All languages of back then are ... old. Nobody ever mentioned a bug in the code, it's a emulation driver bug. No ?

@eddunne5255 5 лет назад

Meanwhile companies that do tax preparation are fighting tooth and nail to keep filing taxes as confusing as possible to support their business model.

@doctorcrankyflaps1724 5 лет назад

All that computing equipment for 20kb of memory. Madness.

@RemixedVoice 5 лет назад

Yep. And it's funny, because in 50 years, we'll be laughing at the 5 petabytes of data that was just collected to create the first black hole image; we'll have that amount of data capacity in our flash drives.

@outtheredude 5 лет назад

I know. My Amstrad CPC 464 from 1984 has more free memory, and can still process those tax returns around 16-20 times faster. ;-)

@jmcool5502 5 лет назад

Great video with one minor complaint. They are not emulating the System/360 code. IBM z/Architecture is backwards compatible and able to run the System/360 machine language natively. One of IBM mainframes strengths is its ability to run code for all predecessors natively. It's like running 8086 code on a 386 or 486, but IBM does it better.

@compaqdeskpro5770 5 лет назад

Nuclear launch facilities have the same ancient hardware that is still used to launch the nukes if we have to, McLaren needs a specific Compaq LTE laptop from the 90's in order to interface with the F1's ECU, I know Visa relies on an IBM mainframe in day to day business.

@jerryakamuadams6399 4 года назад

Watching this during the 2020 Pandemic. Some states' unemployment offices still use 40 year old computer systems and software that run FORTRAN. With the large influx of unemployed people because of the pandemic, systems are being overwhelmed

@lashyndragon 5 лет назад

Colorado DMV/Clerk and recorders were using MS-DOS until a couple years ago and I thought that was bad...

@boheyo 5 лет назад

@@EberKlaushartinger Yeah who doesn't love waiting for 30 year old software to slooowly mulch data at the DMV?

@johnscott2126 4 года назад

Welcome to the year 2020. COBOL programmers are being sought right now. IBM is giving away free COBOL classes.

@SinisterPuppy 5 лет назад

Wow never knew this and only live 15min away from Martinsburg. :O Thanks for the video.

@39Chevy 5 лет назад

Oh man! Do you ever check GSA auctions for old stuff?

@nakarilexfortaine2897 5 лет назад

Someone else from the area! Grew up around there, and when I saw the title, I didn't think he could mean THAT Martinsburg. It's just awesome to see, and a new fun fact about Martinsburg to know! Makes like... Two I know of.

@rastislavzima 5 лет назад

I've learned Cobol on high school. That was first and last time I met this programming language. Do not remember what it was like, just that there was more declarations than the code...

@NithinJune 5 лет назад

Country Roads take me home to the place i belong, Martinsburg, West Virginia,

@MistaMaddog247 4 года назад

Even in the Fallout universe the Marstinsburg Monster would crash like all servers did in '76... 😉

@Boemel 5 лет назад

Meanwhile im joking everyday because i have to use windows xp and office 2003.

@BersekViking 5 лет назад

So. The problem was a bug in a modern storage system. Not the old code. :)

@Lane42 5 лет назад

Not only that, but the decision not to upgrade was reasonable. The IRS shouldn't be installing brand new firmware releases on production systems immediately before tax season starts. You test it on test systems first and then push it out after the rush of tax season. Still, really cool documentary. I quite enjoyed it.

@BersekViking 5 лет назад

@@Lane42 I liked the documentary too. But the title didn't match the conclusion. 😀

@mikechilders 5 лет назад

The upgrade requirements are insanely complex. Forgetting for a moment about upgrading the code, which is a complete rewrite, the data wouldn't even be transferrable! Those systems used a text format called EBCDIC which is not readable on modern systems. To do any work they would need to access prior data after the upgrade. That means all those tapes you saw would need to be translated into ASCII or unicode and stored somewhere. The sorting code that depends on EBCDIC will have to be redesigned. It would be a complete redesign from the ground up including data. This isn't an upgrade, it's a replacement! Millions of lines of code and 100 BILLION tax returns and a billion audits converted! Basically, the IRS will have to be replaced!

@markpfeffer7487 5 лет назад

Yoooo this is both super informative and super interesting. Keep it up Clint. Love it.

@moebius2k103 5 лет назад

The old "If it ain't broke don't fix it." usually serves us well in IT, but as we see here there's always that one time when a new firmware would have prevented a major problem.

@JAzzWoods-ik4vv 5 лет назад

So.... once they change the system, where can i buy all those mainframe computers... asking for a friend

@RaymondHng 5 лет назад

Don't think you can buy a used mainframe and use it on household split-phase 120-volt electrical current.

@nickman3642 Год назад

It's funny that this is lazy game reviews but this isn't anything but lol

@TheBioWanderer151 5 лет назад

I clicked the like button, totally not because there was 666 likes and I had the urge to change it... nope. lol All jokes aside this was pretty cool, explains allot about the speed at which the IRS moves.

@outtheredude 5 лет назад

Speed? IRS? Same sentence?!? I just blew a vacuum tube with this error! :-P

@TheBioWanderer151 5 лет назад

@@outtheredude Touché

@justinpipes85 5 лет назад

Aww man. You should do a tech tales about the u.s. nuclear launch computers. I've heard before that they ancient.

@jonnyboi9026 5 лет назад

OMG! Please do one on Kids Pix! Its every early 2000's kids elementary school computer childhood.

@LiamS94 5 лет назад

The US's entire income tax system is antiquated let alone the technology behind it... it needs a complete overhaul. Why do you still need to fill out forms? Look at other countries' models... in the UK your employer pays what you owe every month through PAYE and then HMRC refunds any overpayments annually. All automatic.

@RobertBaruch 5 лет назад

Two reasons: H&R Block, and Intuit. See: www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-free-simple-hr-block-intuit-lobbying-against-it, and www.politico.com/agenda/story/2018/07/18/tax-filing-congress-irs-000683

@Vontux 5 лет назад

Rushing software patches never ends well, as long as they are working on it I'm totally cool with it taking them a few years to move off of the current system. Doing it properly is much more important than doing it quickly.

@compuzeme 5 лет назад

I never thought I would watch an entertaining video about taxes. Thanks LGR!!

@OxKing 5 лет назад

I am confident they update to Windows 95 soon for the next 60 years!

@geefreck 5 лет назад

LOL

@Clone1italy 5 лет назад

They have to get to MS Dos first :)

@elimalinsky7069 5 лет назад

I used to host a website that still ran Unix on a firmware last updated in 1989. The company that ran the server room told me that they never plan on upgrading the firmware since it's perfect for the kind of ultra-low traffic that I and many other people need.

@celebratelife865 Год назад

I am still getting through the backlog of your videos, and this one is just as good as any of your other videos. You are an excellent writer. And keep up the great editing! 🎉

@eclipsedbadger 5 лет назад

COBOL and Assambly? you mean Archane Languages to do mumbo jumbo :P Also: I don't understand US taxes. It sounds too complex for no reason

@euphoria_7477 5 лет назад

They like to keep us confused. That way we won't know what's actually going on, and can't defend ourselves. Murica!

@tomf3150 5 лет назад

Tejoncita: you have no idea...

@B0yardigi0rn0 5 лет назад

You made a video about the IRS that was actually fun to watch. How the hell did you manage to do that!!?? 😵 😵 😵 😵 😵 😵 😵

@slickstretch6391 5 лет назад

The article you show at 2:50 is a actually a pretty interesting read about how the IRS calculated tax returns in the 50's.

@MarcosCodas 5 лет назад

While this whole episode's topic is super, super interesting, I'm almost as fascinated by the level and sheer amount of research you've done to do it justice. Dang, this one goes far, far back and Clint sure don't mind. Impressive! Loved this episode.

@autumnVoid1138 5 лет назад

Ahh Clint great video always nice to get a notification that a new tech tales video has been posted , perfect timing for my coffee and vanilla brioche bread before work 🙂

@jayglenn837 6 месяцев назад

This video made me want to learn COBOL.

@GimblyGFR 5 лет назад

It's so great to have Tech Tales back. Hope the next one won't take long. As usual, an amazing video.

@Cooe. 5 лет назад

You can STILL make a fortune by being fluent in COBAL these days, for much the same reasons. Legacy IBM mainframes are still freaking everywhere in the enterprise sector, & upgrading is even more expensive than hiring an expensive legacy programmer. Said legacy programmers are dying off in droves though (and millennials aren't exactly picking up copies of "COBAL for Dummies"), so a future transition is inevitable.

@jonnyboi9026 5 лет назад

3:52 Does anybody know who this is? He sounds familiar

@bengineer8 5 лет назад

*wants to know who he is too*

@michaelburns8073 5 лет назад

It was very familiar to me also, it had me thinking it was of one of the famous news shows. I only watched a few back in the day, but I was certain about this voice being from one of those. Sure enough, it's Harry Reasoner, from 60 minutes (www.cbsnews.com/news/irs-monster-computer-circa-1970/) I suspect this was the clip where Clint took some of the video. He always had this very folksy, easy going way of telling a story (I used to enjoy him and Charles Kuralt voices).

@CharlieFlemingOriginal 5 лет назад

Its amazing what technology hangs on when people think it is long gone. I worked for Boots The Chemist and in 2004 a store I worked in were using a printer from the 1980s and a price ticket printer that to get ink for involved calling Staples or independent stationers for replacements, and an employment agency office I used to work in still used a windows 95 computer for storing everyones details on in 2011.

@TessaBain 5 лет назад

Yeah, on the Win 95 thing, a store near me did that as well. A major chain using win 95 and upgrading - to XP - in 2010 or so.

@CharlieFlemingOriginal 5 лет назад

@@TessaBain I am surprised these places have moved on with writing with newfangled technology as a Biro and not sticking to a quill and ink pot.

@Zizumia 5 лет назад

This is why I do my taxes early.

@Sammmmmmmm617 5 лет назад

I don't get it. Does everybody do their taxes on one day? (Tax Day)?

@dannooo548 5 лет назад

@@Sammmmmmmm617 The kind of people who wait until the night before to write a book report

@cactusman1771 5 лет назад

@@dannooo548 but this book report sometimes gives you money back.

@AdiposeExpress 5 лет назад

@@dannooo548 AKA every lazy 'Murican in 'Murica.

@mraaronhd 5 лет назад

Sam As Krusty the Klown from the Simpsons said on why he waited until the last day to do his taxes- “Because I’m a moron! Happy?!”

@JohnSmith-ii3cu Год назад

CADE2 had an initial implementation date of 2014. It was supposed to reach major functionality by 2023. It isn't expected to come fully online until 2030. Maybe. At this rate, we'll all be gone before the IMF is fully replaced. IBM and Northrop Grumman are probably doing pretty well financially on this project though.

@NithinJune 5 лет назад

Matbe don't listen to "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

@lelandclayton5462 5 лет назад

Back in the late 90s and early 2000s a friend of mine took some classes for Cobol Programming.I laughed at him about it and he said many Banks and the IRS still use it and don't plan to upgrade since it would cost billions. Sure enough he landed a job at the IRS maintaining systems that basically emulates the IBM 360.

@ibazulic 5 лет назад

Great story :-D I'm surprised thst they can't migrate the IMF to more modern storage. Or convert it from a primordial form to something more modern (SQL database maybe).

@lajya01 3 года назад

It's not that easy since relational databases didn't exist back then. Whole new models have to be made and new programs to use them efficiently. Both databases have to be kept up-to-date while transitioning.