How the West Really Lost God: A New Theory of Secularization 

Do you agree with Mary Eberstadt?

There's a swedish poem written by the poet Alf Henriksson that's roughly translated into the following: "God and soldier we honor, in times of war and they stand by our side. But when peace is secured and the plates are filled, we forget about God and the soldier we despise." I think there's something going on here and it should be investigated.

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

It is crucial to understand history and learn about human patterns in an objective manner. The fact our youth aren't given these critical thinking tools to react to life in an intellectually honest way is perhaps the greatest concern in our modern society.

I was raised by a single mother, secular certainly. Today a traditional Catholic.

Most everyone here is looking at the practical aspect of things, but forgetting the spiritual. When a nation that was traditionally Christian, turns its back on God and does not follow His laws and precepts, He gives them over, to do what they want to do. The end result is ciaos, confusion, and immorality, which brings poverty, crime, mental illness, etc. and a general breakdown of society. Read Romans chapter one, and you will see that this is right.

Religious adherence is growing in South Korea, China, and Japan. America has a high percentage of people who say they believe in God and pray.

Money is your God, Go and count your coins

I think there is confusion about people's belief in God and people going to church. Most people I know are Christians but mat not go to church.

Thank you Heritage Foundation for bringing this brilliantly intelligent woman's articulate perspective to the attention of the listening community. General Douglas MacArthur once said "There's never been a single precedent in the history of nations once political and economic decline begins, unless there's a spiritual awakening to overcome the moral lapse, that the nation doesn't evolve into national destruction."

As an Evangelical pastor who built a church from a handful of people to a mega-church, I can say unequivocally that Mrs. Eberstsdt is right. The life-blood of a growing church are young families. Babies bring unchurched parents to church. This is nearly a truism among church-planting pastors. Consequently, wise pastors start their new churches in thriving school districts and not in old established neighborhoods. Pastors who do not understand this end up with dying churches.

This Heritage Foundation inspirational speaker Mary Eberstadt on this broad landscape, she paints this highly detailed and historically brilliant picture on, the historical landscape of a broad spectrum of subjects • reminds me of a series of lectures that Prison Fellowship Founder Chuck Colson, Washington DC, did several decades ago on "The Secularization of America". Daniel Webster, 1823, I quote to various individuals of these historical accords "...If God and His Word are not known and received, the Devil and his works will gain the ascendancy." Christians need to pray and closely study God's Word and take this very, very seriously. We are in a nationwide holocaustic nightmare, and we have been for literally decades. Repentance is critical for there to be nationwide revival. Anything short of this critical necessity to spare future generations, mass tragic national destruction, is threatening the wellbeing of us all.

We live in the most stupid society ever .

Very simple answer to, "How America is losing God." 501c3 The fear of the State punishing preachers in the pulpit that they would lose a so called, "non-profit status.' It was also suggested that they could serve jail time if any political speech came from the pulpit. Therefore, sin in government and it's officials could no longer be spoken.

@55:00 role of the Welfare State in the decimation of Family and Religion in Western World. She inspires me to write non fiction.

People have thought that about many faiths for thousands of years, but it hasn't happened. The reason is because we all know there's something about our inner nature that materialism can't explain.

One thing that urbanization brings with it might be cultural conflicts. In a rural area probably ost people have the same religion. My parents were Protestant and Catholic, and my mother never went to church because my father brought us children to a Baptist church. If she had stayed in her small town she might have married a Catholic and continued going to church. Perhaps in some way cultural mismatching through urbalization plays a role in religious decline.

Perhaps the major problem is that when people become involved in and often enough distracted by their intellectual search for economic and individual growth they abstain from foundational religious stability believing that the smarter road will lead to greater realization of meaning in life. Rather than maintaining the balance between individual search for truth with the historical truth of theological doctrines allowing for complimentary insight modernity tugs at the person to find a road other than that clearly delineated .

Very interesting and informative for me . thank you Mary

"Not even the gates of hell will prevail against the Church" ...and certainly the lies of the devil and his many minions in Hollyweird, Academia, fakenews , big business and politics WON'T ever prevail against God...Like Saint Teresa of Avila said :"Everything passes but God ; whoever has God HAS IT ALL". Truth is that Caifas, Nietszche, Freud, Marx, Fidel Castro, Judas they all passed, yet Jesus passed yet rose again!!!

And I do want to thank you for carrying on a civil debate.

I wonder if this still holds up today.

The rise of the west was due to individualism and curiosity. Breaking the mold, pursing one's interest/greatness and a general curiosity of the world is what led to the Renaissance, age of exploration/colonization, Industrial Age, Space Age and the Age of Information. Individualism and curiosity will also lead to secularism.

The information age and the rise of skepticism is killing religion. The meme… 'The internet is where religion comes to die' has never been more true than it is now.

54:00 & Adversity driving us back to organic connection.... "Home is where, when you have to go there, they have to take you in." In the 21st century round of humanity's perennial struggle with the cycle of harder and easier times, the question will be, "What is left of our 'organic connections' when we 'have to go there'? What, exactly, remains, for us to be 'taken in' to?" We are wired from our conception (usually) to weave our most fundamental and powerfully life-affirming bonds naturally, but the forming of our "attachment templates" is still an intricate work -- not an automatic entitlement, and this work is intruded upon madly these days by toxicity in our environments and lifestyles, aimed at and sold to us from every imaginable angle. We have to earn the connections that make a safe and healthy "home" (Church, family, or otherwise) by facing daily adversity together to build authentic connection -- in person. The day of the Flood is too late to start building the Ark.

Just learn the difference between right and wrong. In other words, establish a common framework of rules by which people should endeavour to live their lives, pass this framework on to one's children and away we go!

To Faith, Family and Friends who share Common Shared Values and Principles that we hold dear as our Constitutional rights, morals and ethics, Democracy! Judeo-Christian values are taught to us to bring out the good to Society. Thank you Mary Eberstadt.

The reason people stopped going to church is not that they lost their faith in God but because many preachers lost the fire in their belly. They repeat and repeat tired old sermons that neglect the updating of spiritual understanding. One example would be they still preach the idea that God is responsible for everything humans do and that through prayer, people can manipulate an outcome. However, many now understand that the choices people make and the effect of nature are the primary reason things happen as they do. God has given us this world and instructed us how to behave according to his will. What people do with that is up to them. We were never promised a rose garden. in fact, warned against loving the world.

I disagree, what is missing is true leadership of the church of God. The churchgoers can't find God in the church today. There is no difference between the church and the world and most importantly the absence of the Holy Spirit power to save and deliver this sick world so why bother

Judao Christian ? Either Judism or Christianity.

G•d has nothing to do with this discussion. What is at stake is liberation from the oppressive lies of your repressive religion, in service of an exhausted mythology. The cruel history of Christianity mocks your pretensions.

Religion declined in large part BECAUSE of the decline of the family, not vice-versa, in many important ways. An important thing to remember.

Funny how if their mistress is pregnant they beg her to get an abortion.

I find the greatest flaw in this study/book is the ascribing of the strength of Christianity to going to a church building. It seems the author is an ateist with a soft spot for the family and Western Civilization. The rise of feminism is never explicitly mentioned which is suspect to me. In such a study, I think the author should have at least tried to understand Christianity and its history. There is much more to say here but this is a comment, not a discussion. I do like the topic but the content I found wanting.

If I go to Church and don't pay attention and am bored, does that count as attendance?

People often forget (or choose to ignore) WHY women were commanded to respect their husbands, and that's because God Himself told them that the men would be held doubly responsible for the failures of their wives. People answer for their own sins, but God made man first, and ultimately holds him to a higher degree of responsibility for both genders' decisions in a marriage.

The printing press made Christianity sick and the internet is killing it.

Why is your statement about "synagogues & churches" missing the word "mosques" ?

Very few people argue against Gay marriage based on the Bible because serious political people know we are not a theocracy would not want it to be so. Gay marriage represents a change of a standard which must be thought about. Additionally marriage has been the province of the States. to elevate it to a national issue decided by judges would be bad law. That has nothing to do with the bible. Since gay marriage was brought into this what argument for this cannot also be made for polygamy?

I will buy both her books, already a fan!

Christianity was born out of ancient Judaism; Jesus Himself was called "King of the Jews", though the Sanhedrin resented that title. The term "Judeo-Christian" is simply used to explain that both served as a core foundation for all the laws and ethics originally placed in the founding documents of the United States. Many of the Founders identified themselves as Christians, including George Washington, Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, John Jay, Roger Sherman, and John Witherspoon, to name a few.

Too much money allows people to make bad decisions, whether it be divorce, or single parent child raising.

46 in refers to Sweden and Scandinavia and indeed IRELAND as homogenous _ that was then this is now both countries intentionally targeted for refugees to prevent the homogeneity referred to in this talk Nice to hear proper recs to sociology again

The Heritage Foundation 47:04 agree, time will tell

In Britain & many places in the Commonwealth, Religious Beliefs were lost for those who directly or indirectly suffered the wretchedness, loss, tragedy, mass-sorrow & the resulting, harrowing effects from horrendous places like the Somme, Ypres, Passchendaele & other WW1 & more subsequent Butcher’s Yards Of WW2 & other Wars since! In fact to many survivors & particularly to many of the families of the victims of these conflicts, the years & decades that passed afterwards did not heal the wounds that time was falsely supposed to heal but left them with a dreadful emptiness & never-ending anguish that doused & mocked any meaningful hope & solace that a religious belief is supposedly to bring to its adherents, but alas for many, never actually does or hadn’t subsequently done so with in-numerous others over their remaining lifetimes until they, themselves had passed on!! This was & still remains the actual, disruptive reality caused directly by wars through their negative & numerous economic & social consequences, coming in their wake for the many people & families, left behind to struggle through life, particularly in the 1920s, 30s & thereafter, & with more recent wars & conflicts, even up to the present day!! You need not search far & wide to find the reasons why many people in many different societies, perhaps justifiably regard the contemporary religions across the Western World, to be in the likely was process of just becoming other derelict, obsolete & forgotten mythologies, as had previously happened to our Roman, Greek, Nordic, Celtic & other pre-Christian religions had done in Europe millennia ago!! Without wishing to needlessly appear derisive, scornful, cynical or flippant, it is probably the reality of knowing a little too much nowadays about how we live & how others in power over us,control or manipulate most of our lives; & to the realization that these things therefore reveals the stark facts in life, that there are no such things as; ‘Santa Claus’, the ‘Tooth-Fairy’ or ‘Living Happily Ever-after’ & that religious beliefs seem to be just another string that our ‘puppeteer masters’ seem to have contrived to have attached to us, in order to keep us placidly & obediently in line & dancing slavishly to their every whim & tune! To many life is at best, just one big, continuous bad-joke to be tolerated & smiled at, if you can, after all, perhaps it really was in fact the case that, “IN THE BEGINNING THERE WAS MAN, THEN HE CREATED HIS GOD (OR GODS!)” & things have never been the same since, have they?

Psalms 119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth. Jesus is The Word, John 1:1-5 The Word God spoke: Exodus 20:1 The Word God wrote: Deuteronomy 4:13 and The Word God made flesh John 1:14. He is our example of The Trinity. He is The Law that hung on the cross and The Law that is written in the heart. Psalms 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. With obedience to The Father in Deut.6:8-9, The Father anoints us with His Word, putting us in His Son, The Holy Spirit. Build up the body of Christ by 'putting on' The Lord. Cling to, dwell in the law (Ten Commandments) and testimony (Sermon on the Mount). We know His voice. His words are spirit and they are life. Hear Him. Prepare for your future and the life of your loved ones. As Paul tells us, "put on Jesus." Cling to, dwell in the Truth. The Spirit of God, the Ten Commandments, used to be everywhere across America, not any more. Few homes will contain the precious Word of God. Our schools, our court houses and public property have mostly removed the Commandments. God's Word will preserve us if we apply them once again across our Country. Each of us, on our property, our loved ones, on our all. He never left us, we left Him. Surround your world in Light.

The Pentecostal Christian Revival over the last two decades in Brazil also is connected with family reconstruction, as the sociologist Darcy Ribeiro already observed in his book "Povo Brasileiro".

Some of us feel reverence, connection, and understanding with God, humbly. And, we find the Jesus aspect as basically bizarre, and probably not valid, but otherwise in line with the Christian faith in all the other aspects.

Chambers' book "Witness" should be required reading for college students.

it does not matter who says that. its about respecting someone. you let a book and a steeple cloud your judgement for others. sad. thank god i left this poisonous ritual long ago.

Excellent presentation. I agree with you conclusions.

What does cremation have to do with secularization?

What is most important to remember, however, is that America remains the world's last hope for achieving complete Secularism. Without the influence of rationalism and secularization, we run the risk of being at perpetual war. It is interesting to me that the speaker here focuses upon Christianity as a crutch, of sorts, that helps individuals marry and have families. Now, on one hand I can understand this argument. After all, rural Americans are most likely not Biblical scholars. They need church for emotional and communal support, something I do not wish to tread upon exactly. But to blindly accept Christianity is yet another major issue altogether. In my own church experience, I have always found the entire ordeal to be extremely unpleasant and unnecessary (speaking as a recovering Baptist church attendee). In order to divide a people they first have to be brought together. I also came to realize that isolation isn't always a bad thing. Too much time spent in crowds (and especially around family) will produce a deleterious effect upon anyone's psyche. Add into this that Eberhart and her associates do not seem to grasp the purpose of actual Christianity (Antisemitism) and we now find ourselves in quite the conundrum. I am 38, unmarried, have no plans to get married and I am not sure when or if I will ever had children. And I will never under any circumstances go back to church. And I've never been happier or more at peace with myself and with my environment. I think that while it is true that some people need church after having children I would hasten to caution anyone who is seriously considering joining this war against other faiths because while the Noahide laws and Shariah laws may not yet be enforceable in the States, that day could potentially come. And Christian people, blinded as they are by sentimentality and easy emotion, may never come to realize that they are viewed as blood sacrifices by the other 2 major belief systems. In America, we have an opportunity to stop this war against reason and truth if only we can be brave enough to overturn our superstition-laced past. The psychological conditioning proffered by End Times propaganda is significant. On the Talmudic calendar, Christianity itself does indeed have an expiration date. When it is revealed to Christian groups at the "end of days" that they have actually been worshipping an anti-Messiah and not the real one, then their cultural fate will become clear to them. This is the tragedy of misreading that we all must face, and it goes a long way towards explaining why most Christian people are neither close readers nor intellectuals. "There was only one Christian, and he died on the Cross." Friedrich Nietzsche

It does seem as though the modern welfare state works to create more single parent, mother headed families dependent on the social welfare system, such as AFDC in the 60s. Perhaps by making the two parent family unnecessary for millions of people, the liberal welfare state also undermined faith and religion. They wanted to destroy the family in order to have greater control over children's education and values. In Scandinavia it seems to me that massive Muslim immigration has brought in very high Muslim birthrates and the fear of demographic replacement. In this case, the welfare state supports fertility among the migrants, whose families can grow large while being paid for by tax dollars. If the family is the source of religious commitment, then the welfare state should be reduced. My friends in Europe seem to think that a big welfare state should increase fertility among secular people and Christians as well. But perhaps the right way to strengthen the family must be different in some way.

Religion fulfills many peoples lives. The fact that you don't agree does not bother me. What I always wonder in these threads (as I get into them a lot with atheists) is why my faith bothers you so much. No one forces you to accept a faith at the end of a gun. Your side does enforce atheisim through social justice etc which can only be defined as some third party defines it. There is no objective definition possible

It is interesting that the greatest people mentioned in the Bible were the most educated and wealthiest people. They were the Prophets, Kings, and Leaders of cities who encountered God and shared their spiritual experiences with as many people as possible. When they they let their fame and riches get to their heads, that’s when they began to lose their power and many times died.

Bunk. Eberstadt wastes our time by mistaking coincidence and correlation for causation. The answer is that in America, Christianity has become about beliefs and how the right beliefs will deliver individual prosperity. Younger generations are increasingly, and earlier, aware of the lack of evidence for their family's religion and deity. They also don't feel their individualistic religion represents their tolerant and humanist values; when forced to choose between friends and doctrines, they choose their friends. There you go: drastically less retention of young people.

Liberal public education. Itb teaches that education has all the correct answers. Everything has equal value, and as a liberally educated being you then have all the answers and do not need a supreme being to direct you. This thinking leads humans to believe they can be their own God cause you are a God. Liberal Education has been elevated to a secular faith.

I respectfully believe you are twisting a few things. I can think of no bills that have been proposed based on the bible, or Torah or any other holy scripture. Again I am not bothered at all by your lack of faith in a God, but the anger of atheists is what troubles me.

The decline of family is the the result of the decline of wealth, and of the common ethnic community.

Christianity is not just about church and memorized prayers, but its a moral compass, a way to help in times of need, and to be grateful for everything you have. Religion is an expression of love to one another, regardless of what religion you are attached to. " Love one another as I have loved you."

You take Love , honor and Obay Out of the marriage vow , you take the man's place out of marriage and family. You did liberate women you Emancipated.them.

(2) And bills that infringe upon the rights of others. Same-sex marriage and abortion are perfect examples. Many want laws making either/both illegal because that is how they feel due to scripture from the bible. I am not gay, but it is not my place to deny anyone else the right to legally marry. I don't like abortion and don't want to see it happen, yet it's not my place to make that decision for anyone else. Too many christians believe otherwise and it is destroying mankind.

The West has not LOST "God"... rather, more evolved souls are Tossing Religion for a much greater, much more expansive and spiritually MATURE "God" model.

Christianity isn't against women; Jesus himself treated women with far more respect than anyone else did in the first century. That's one of the reasons they flocked to Him. Christianity's against homosexuality as a behavior, but a true follower of Christ doesn't hate the person who's living such a life, any more than we'd hate an alcoholic or drug addict. Many colleges were started by Christians; John Harvard was a clergyman. The Constitution doesn't guarantee anyone a freedom from religion.

Having a family forces you to be serious about life, by the very biological institutes. Weather your actions produce better or worse outcomes matters. Therefore people very practically care about ethics (how to follow a good effectively) and no longer engage with Religion like “Genesis 1 is so rediculous ” but by what it actually teaches.

I found your talk interesting. There is a book,out of print, that would be worth finding called Seven Men that Rule the World From the Grave. It speaks much about your topic . I've studied this much myself in the heels of over a thousand years of Catholic despotism in Europe where adherence to the doctrines and practice of the Catholic church were enforced by law and during a bloody reformation in which a Catholics and protestants fought killed, burned at the stake, drowned,and tortured each other set the stage for Atheism as a welcome alternative

The caring of "church family," a sense of meaning, belonging, guidelines for moral behavior, rejection of selfish and destructive ones, altruism, meaningful tradition and ritual, compassionate giving and "giving back," thankfulness" and a sense that we sin but still are loved, universal stories held in common which encourage selflessness, courage, that prayer is effective, and that " there is so much more to reality" and that things do not bring lasting happiness, and the comfort that death does not have the final say are the main aspects churches and corporate faith , all taken as a whole,, provide in ways that being unchurced, "religious,or agnostic/atheist cannot ever provide.

Thanaksks for your insites. I think the baby boomers which I was one of had the fear of God put in them about divorce and financial strain and being told we will wind up working at mcdonalds if we don't go to college. Then we had school loans.

Conclusion I draw is that selfish greedy people do not have children or have them plentifully, Or well. and selfish greedy people also don't believe in God or go to his house, at least voluntarily.

Interesting!!

What is this "judeo"-christian tradition ? In books before the 60s, Christians never spoke of Judeo-Christianity, just Christianity. Or maybe Greco-Christian.

She skipped over the real reason for a decline in Christian faith. Please refer to John 3:19-20 where the gospel points out that people hide from the light (the truth of the Gospel) so that their sins don’t get seen. God sets out a system of conduct for us to follow (voluntary), and to do otherwise is sin. The thing is that doing otherwise is fun and pleasurable, and many people would rather do that than pursue the safety of following Gods leading. This is why church attendance is declining.

Not convincing at all: affluence and education are the main causes of loss of faith, low birth rates and individualism. More traditional families don't cause more Christianity. That sounds like conservative wishful thinking. Welfare state collapsing? More conservative wishful thinking. People lose their faith because the supernatura; is not very convincing to somebody who knows about physics, biology and logic. That's all Frau Eberstadt.

Ok, I'd like a crack at this... The religious and the scientific are two groups of people trying to describe the universe around them, and how it works. The scientific do it quantitatively. The religious do it qualitatively. They are both describing the same thing in two different ways. They are, in my opinion, both correct. It's the same with music. There are those who play the piano by reading notes on a page to reproduce the music. There are others who can't read music, but who can "hear" the music within themselves, and play it on the keys. Is either one more musical than the other? Not to me. Perhaps it's a time for science, rationality, and pragmatism to have attention paid to them for a while. Let us learn what we can from a scientific standpoint from those who have a mind and enthusiasm for it. Let not the religious feel threatened by science. Are you who are religious threatened by computers and telescopes? Conversely, are the scientific minded threatened by descriptions of the origins of the cosmos from religious laypeople? It's wisdom on the part of both to admit they can't adequately describe the world on their own, such as it is, without leaning over the shoulder of the other and asking for insight. When you can pull back and see the beauty of how these two worlds interlace to describe our existence, you'll have your heart and mind working as one - a powerful experience.

I agree to some of this, but you can be a person of deep personal Faith but not what anyone would call 'religious'. I have followed the Guidelines of Problacism for many years and consequently I have been given everything I could possibly ever need or want. I also don't suffer from any anxieties, fears or depression. Problacism does not require any prayer, churches, iconoclasm or worship. All it requires is that you lose all your ego and indiscriminately help everyone who is 'sent' to you without any expectation of recognition or reward. Trust in the Universe and be Relentless.

Think of all the wars that have been waged in the name of religion. Total madness!

I'm sure the decline of family and secularization is part of the issue; but what about the economic inequality ? People have seen over the last few decades the religious right adopt economic policies as well as foreign policies that have hurt alot of people. If you preach morality on the one hand, but act like you're indifferent to people's economic problems, it's all talk and no walk.

Judeochrystianity it's some kind of oxymoron. Is there judeoislamity aroud somewhere?

I've listened this this man speak and been reading through through comments below and am AMAZED how far off the mark most of you are INCLUDING the speaker above in the video.I'll tell you a few of the actual reasons why religion is on such a rapid and marked decline but your definitively not going to like them and many will deny them regardless of fact.Lets start with the bible itself, does not the bible instruct believers to be humble and contrite before their god at all times? Does not the bible clearly instruct believers to not be judgmental nd look down their noses at others that may be engaged in activities they do not like?Now, lets move on to street preachers, where did they come from? and what does your bible say about preaching and praying in the street publicly? it says those that do have their reward already meaning they have nothing coming.Now lets take two completely different approaches to seeking out converts or proselyting.lets first take the average street preacher out on a street corner with a megaphone actively condemning others calling them rude names like whores and sluts and making accusations as they preach, yet in the same breath claiming the love them and only want to *save* them.Doesn't that sound a bit disrespectful and hypocritical to you?Now take the gentleman who has truly humbled himself before his god, his humility will show in all aspects of his life including how he approaches people, when he does he engages then conversationally, respectfully, offers to share with them why his god is so important to him and why he could be just as important to them too.Which do you think will get the better response.Now add onto all this loud, obnoxiously hate filled churches like Westboro Baptist into the mix who knowingly and deliberately pervert the bible for their own ends.Keep in mind too people remember the bad things others do and forget the good things rapidly.Now with all many people know about religion is from street preachers and groups like Westboro, you can pretty much guess the general publics view on religion and they simply do not care who much or what kind of good it has done for anyone.Those are REAL reason but not all the reasons for the marked decline in religion in America and world wide. Deny it all you want and offer alternative theories all you want it still will not change the reality of what I have posted here

The west abandons God and God abandon them and leave alone they they seek God again.

It never had a god.

Let's begin the discussion of this topic with the understanding that the original, pure, complete, and unchanging Word is the Spirit of our Creator and Messiah, not the paper and ink work of man.

For most of history, marriage has been less about the love between spouses and more about an institution for begetting and raising children. Until recently, the only way to beget children was through the intercourse between the sexes (male and female). Indeed, one of the main factors considered by the Supreme Court was that the meaning of marriage has changed and has become spouse-centred rather than child-centred.

Additionally, Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution, the “Big Bang” theory and scientific answers to big questions in general have undermined faith in God and therefore church attendance. As knowledge of the fine tuning of all fundamental constants and the failure of abiogenesis becomes more prevalent, faith (belief) in God will become more prevalent.

It's in religion's interest to act all mystified about rising secularism, and then blame it on the decline of the family. But if you ever bother to take 5 minutes and listen to atheists and those who reject traditional religion, one theme emerges time and time again: "I learned too much."

Europe is learning it had/has its own culture and realizing that an alien spirituality took them over 1000 + years ago

Your comment is a perfect example. First of all, atheists have faith, too - yust not in a omnipotent deity. Look up the definition. The first, and primary, definition has nothing to do with god or religion. Yet in your mind, automatically faith is only about believing in a god, therefore you automatically think everyone should define "faith" in the same manner. This is where religion is infringing upon and tearing apart society. Creating bills based purely because of a passage in the bible.

when we judge whether or not a person believes in God we are solely basing our judgment on the words out of their mouths or from their pens; no way to prove anything about what anyone believes. In this comment I may write that I believe, in the next comment I write seconds later, I may write that I dont believe. Both comments are just as valid and provable, I would not even be contradicting myself.

Jesus christ is Lord

Church was a meeting point for many people, the length of it was known, not a lot was expected of the congregation except a tithe and hopefully a bath beforehand. It was expected that you would attend. Being pious was for the judges among the throng, they were the top dogs. Afterwards there was a chat in the grounds and home for a big lunch. You were not expected to open your bible or pray. Then came television, computers, cheap goods from China, divorce, travelling, all kinds of distractions, so much choice it was astonishing, Church was forgotten, and like old shoes, it was tossed into the bin. Who were the real Christians, yes, there were some, I didn't meet any until well into my thirties. I was so grateful some were still around to point the way to Jesus. However, I have a problem with churches today, so much loud music, songs with little real meaning, pastors taking up valuable time talking about their travel dates or what their dog did today. I feel like I'm attending a rock concert. Pastors talking about politics, or only giving a very light commentary on a passage in the bible. It feels like a salad without the dressing. I read in the bible that the reason people got together was to love one another, to share food, to encourage each other, to form rich relationships with other believers, to be family to them, to listen to enriching love of Christ from the leader, to praise God in song with the others, hearing their voices. I guess I'm expecting a lot.

Capital decided marriage, religion.and class were no longer necessary for social control in the 80s.

Both church attendance and birth rate or declining families are lagg measures.. not lead measures what about measuring the success of revivals or austerity in upbringing in the preceding religious generation?

This is why amateurs shouldn't be doing sociology.

I don't like the title "how the west REALLY ..etc". It's an interesting hypothesis, but obviously it's one hypothesis among others. For instance. one cannot simply deny or ignore the role of science and education in explaining the decline of belief in biblical truths.

As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the times of The Son of Man....!

Christianity is about faith. It is about having faith and believing because you want to believe not because there is a logical reason to it. There is no thinking involved which is why it is so easy to be religious. Why is it that the majority of wealthy and successful people are not religious? Because they have better things to do than believe in fairytales.

Mormonism is going soft. I wonder what will happen to it.

We didn’t know how much explanation was necessary to come to the conclusion that the idea of god was only a human creation that simple common sense would dismiss by the time we reach the age of reason which usually come by the time we are twelve or about. Obviously something is at work in the mind of all of us, no matters what countries under consideration. That something has a name, education and teaching to children by adults having interests to perpetuate such beliefs, interests associated with certain privileges. Rarely will you see a highly situated person in the social ladder with some education and wealth be a believer in any god, but he/she will certainly pretend to believe in a god to suit a political or business agenda. Do we have to be a believer first before we come to reason properly and dismiss such infantile concept of a god in existence placed above all that exist. Mystification is how we cover our weaknesses and lack of courage to face the reality of our existence on earth, an existence full of contradictions based on societies divided in classes. If justice cannot be applied equally between ourselves regardless of all the rules and laws in place then the concept of a saviour above all of us becomes a kind of spiritual need, the Valium of people, not the opium as Karl Marx suggested although it was said in a context few understand simply because they never read his work with the tenacity required.

"Contraceptive technology has disrupted the elemental rhythms of birth and death and family as has no other historical force: almost everyone would agree to that..." "And, of course, the Pill also contributed to the decline of Western Christianity in another way: demographically. The current plight of Mainline Protestantism, for example, was brought on in part by the embrace of contraception. There’s a chapter in the book called “Assisted Religious Suicide” detailing exactly that."