HOW THEY WORK-PROCHARGER VS TURBO (WHAT WORKS BEST?) 

Me too unclearsquirrel, me too

Yep which is why hp is king on the strip

why does it keep the rpm so low if theres more power to be had up higher

@@justinward5928 if I understand your question correctly, you're thinking of stock style torque converters that couple around 1500-2000 rpm. Performance/racing torque converters will move that up significantly. In a drag car, the conveyor will couple at near peak power at full throttle i.e. 5k+ rpm. This is too much of a compromise though for part throttle driving where the car will feel unresponsive and sluggish at low throttle because the engine will need more throttle input and more rpm to create the same change in vehicle speed.

Good 1...

Wrong....unless u have no traction issues most drag cars are over powered these days it's more hp management going on these days

4.11s with turbo?? I always run "highway gears".. Like 3.42 to 2.73 on my turbo cars. It seems to work better for me anyway. 👍

​​@travisabrahamson5092 with 29" tall tire drops to 3.80 gear with Power Glide gear ratio so his comment makes sense in eighth mile. Tells me you don't know anything about gear ratios in transmission, stall speeds, & drag racing vs street car.

It all depends on where you're racing. Are u racing on the highway? Or are u racing on winding S shaped roads? Lots of left and right turns etc. One setup will prevail over another.

welcome aboard

you forgot to tune it

THINK FLOW & POWER RATE AND NOT NUMBER OF BLOWERS/TURBOS

A FEW HUNDRED-NOT IN ANY FACTORY TRANS, RIGHT?

@@richardholdener1727 I CAN'T TELL IF YOU'RE KIDDING OR NOT. WATCH THE TACHOMETER AS THE GEARS CHANGE.

a centrifugal supercharger will always provide a rising boost curve-no combination changes that fact

@@richardholdener1727 I’m not debating that I’m saying you can shift the curve to the left and have it come in early with pullies and a nice converter. Plus the power comes in hard but very traction friendly. I’ve had a Maggie and a lt4 blower and the race centrifugal on a vette is a better combo. You don’t need max tq at idle on a light vette that can bust the tires loose on motor alone. The power comes in hard and doesn’t stop where it matters in the mid and topend .

the big bang motors were a stroke of luck

A dyno's artificial load will make it look that way. On the street, the rpm climbs much faster, and the procharger will follow the rpm, when the turbo has a *small* amount of lag. Don't get fooled

@@Kincentc ya, the procharger does basically the same thing on the dyno as on the track. Really high end tuning shops have started.using hub dynos where they can program in the wheel speed against time and take cars from staging to the big end. It lets guys set up things like a transbrake and boost v speed and boost v gear. On the street once those turbos light i dont think the procharger would touch it. The advantage is too big and these turbos were selected to limit low end boost.

@@timothybayliss6680 I think they would too especially on that setup

SINGLE AND TWINS DO THE SAME THING-BUT YOU ALREADY KNEW THAT

@@richardholdener1727 And a smaller pully and one degree of timing equals 100 HP, but you already knew that. Own the inaccuracies, you can prove your point in a much better fashion. And if twins and single are the the same then why use twins........and why does every high HP builder? Why not put out a video that nobody needs twin turbo's and prove it???????

@@richardholdener1727 I have to disagree. The behavior of a twin turbo setup vs a single turbo is entirely dependent on the size of the turbos. A twin turbo setup will VERY often utilize much smaller turbos than a single turbo setup would. Smaller turbo’s will spool faster due to less weight from smaller components. However, a single turbo will be utilized when a much higher amount of flow is desired. A single turbo will ultimately flow far more air than a twin turbo. Again this all depends on how the turbo’s are sized. So simply saying “they do the same” is tragically oversimplified, bordering on being asinine. My bigger complaint has to do with the rev range used in the dyno test. There was 1000 RPM between the twins and the pro charger. There’s a chance that the twins would have ran out of breath had you continued to the same redline as the pro charger. The problem here is more than just “apples to apples”… if there were only one variable, that would be one thing, but there isn’t just one… there like 8 different variables. That makes it very difficult to truly compare different forms of forced induction. At best, you can only speak in vague generalities…. Which you basically did, because you knew it wasn’t a very good “versus”. Didn’t you? Be honest, you knew. Lastly, having watched and enjoyed many of your other videos and having been impressed by how completely you discussed the details of your topic. I have to believe that this was a rush job for some content to get posted because you weren’t able to do this video as well as you would have preferred. That said, you began to talk about how the shape of the power curve is important. Problem is, you only talked about the benefit of the pro charger while putting the twin turbos in shade by dancing around saying traction is hard to find with lots of power. There are so many aspects to comparing turbos and chargers you could use this video as a launch pad into WEEKS of talking head content. You could talk about choosing turbocharger or supercharger with respects to the power band, rev range or method of boost control. You could discuss why even has a centrifugal supercharger instead of using a roots or screw type. You could discuss compound charging with different combinations of super/turbo or turbo/turbo… and why compound turbos are used most often with Diesel engines. There are so many half statements in this video, you’ve got a plethora of content available here. I’d might take this video down, review it for the discussions you side-stepped and list possible topics to discuss after this video and record new explanation clips. When you come to one of those side-steps just say, we will be talking about in a follow-up video. Now you have our attention. Now you’ve got us on a hook! So that others might learn, a wide and flat power curve (as was seen from the twin turbos) is especially beneficial when road racing. The wide and flat power curve provides the engines peak power over a much wider range of RPMs. That means the engine’s power is near peak for powering out of a turn or down a straight. It also means that near peak power is available as a driver works their way through traffic having to slow down without the need to downshift as much. In drag racing, the only goal is to get to peak rpm as fast as possible as few times as possible in the eight, quarter, half or whatever distance has been decided. In one drag race you’ll never downshift… at least between the green light and the finish line. I this case, having the power continually rise all the way to redline is ideal. Especially since HP is merely a function of TQ and RPM… so long as torque doesn’t fall off too much… HP will always continue to get higher as RPMs get higher. Turbochargers are more efficient and environmentally economical as the use the waste air from the engine to help the engine produce more power. Super chargers (the pro charger is a supercharger) use power from the engine it’s trying to help make more power… this is called parasitic loss. Making more power using what is being sent out of the engine or taking power to make power from the beginning. You decide.

YOU CAN'T SPIN THE BLOWER INDEFINITELY, AND IT'S BAD FOR THE BLOWER LIFE-BUT IT IS POSSIBLE

@@richardholdener1727 What if you had small enough exhaust housings to be quick-spooling, massive wastegates to prevent too much backpressure & a system to control the turbo based on turbo shaft rpm? What would that do?

@@matthewmiddleton2234 Small turbine housings waste a ton of energy through the wastegates and don't make the same power as a larger turbine housing. The closest to what you want to achieve is compound turbos as the little one gets bypassed as the big turbo comes in. Variable geometry turbines are also good, but limit the low RPM boost due to compressor surge.

@@Joshie2256 Joshua, long story short, I first envisioned this in a compound turbo setup

So just dump pressurized air you spent alot of effort making to atmosphere?

a single turbo sized correctly does the same thing-centrifugal superchargers make boost relative to engine speed and na power output

Glad to help

very difficult to get the cent blower to make max boost at just 4000 rpm

way to many variable for that to be true in all cases and combo's ..have to see the number of PC combos in the winner circles..much easier to get ahold of a supercharger in the 330

Ive used nitrous, centrifugal sc and turbo. funnest one by far was the turbo also it was very very cheap i made a kit for 1k not as cheap as nitrous but it was annoying to fill.

neither of those choices (turbo or procharger) offer immediate, off-the-line boost response. A PD blower is better at that, but a turbo makes more hp per psi than either once it spools

Be next to impossible compile any meaningful data because the curves would be different depending on what engine, how the engine is built if I'm not mistaken. That's why good manufacturers will provide efficiency maps for their turbos

i guess it'll be very dependent on the ignition timing curve and camshaft profile. but yea it'll be interesting

THE WASTE GATE CONTROLS THAT TIL THEY RUN OUT OF FLOW-THEN BOOST FALLS

you can't change pulleys to get the centrifugal to make max boost at lower engine speeds. Only an electric motor can spin it up to max speed-complex and expensive-just get a turbo if you want what a turbo does.

maybe easier to tune..but dependable?? dont think so

@@brianmathew09 absolutely, turbos and other superchargers have much more torque down low which is going to cause less dependability and more breakage.

@@craigslue been running and tuning turbos for 20 years..been watching friends send their prochargers back to them time and time again..drew my conclusion from experience. The fact that prochargers 60 better than turbos should tell you something.

Gotta start somewhere

the comparison isn't between different sizes and impeller designs on a Procharger-but rather centrifugal design vs turbo. The amount of difference between different centrifugal blowers is minimal compared to the difference between a blower and turbo

Agreed...

both need the same amount of tuning, and the blower puts more stress on the crank snout, but both work well

He did some compound tests, but you I wuld really love to see a come back on that. I guess the stock stuff wuld not last too long though with a lot off low end boost. I think he can run as much boost as possible with a normal setup with sensors being the limiting factor.

ALREADY UP-PLEASE SEARCH

@@richardholdener1727 Hey richard, I know you covered compound boost with regards to a Roots and Twin Screw style setup in conjunction with a Turbo setup, but my question is would results be similar with using a Centrifugal blower combined with a Turbo? Or is this not a good setup to run with and why? thanks again and been a happy subscriber of your channel

My concern would be there would be too much Boost at high RPMs but obviously if your Fuel System and Engine is rated to handle it, in theory it would be okay and sustainable? and what about intercooler plumbing for a Centri+Turbo

turbo(s) make more hp per psi that any blower because they don't have the parasitic losses associated with driving the blower

boost

F1X would probably have broke.

Kinda like a 4 barrel vs 2x4 , is it always about horsepower...NO!!

@@CapnBubbaa As long as it puts a smile on your face right!

Man, I HATE how turbos change the Exhaust note.

Turbo helps me speed incognito..

@Goes 2 Eleven Rising boost curve on a long pull giving the high rpm linear increase (placebo)where as turbo's tend to surge then hold in my experience. Like a turbo diesel but with more rpm 😅.

Turbo all the way

from what I understand most/all dynos can't do that very well.

@@yurimodin7333 The common use for superchargers and blowers is lower in the RPM band. While turbos are spooling, a properly sized supercharger is building off idle. Turbos always win on the top side as the exhaust gases continue to excelerate.

Despite dyno limitations, pulls from idle dont make sense in the real world. If you have an automatic, its going to downshift and the converter is going to flash to stall speed. If you have a manual and youre making pulls from idle in high gear... You probably don't like your motor very much.

WOT AT IDLE?

@@richardholdener1727 that’s what I said lol. Who goes wot at idle? The lowest I ever started wot was 2500 and that was for street tuning purposes.

like many things, forced induction is not a question of what works, its what works better, for that application at that time, the turbos are more efficient, but larger, heavier, more complex option, and of course expensive. so if packaging and weight, and budget, are the issue a procharger works just fine, if having not enough power is the problem then turbos and figure out how to make em work.

The way procharger delivers power is perfect no drama

@@patrick11169 turbo are also more reliable, done right. and not necessarily more expensive or heavier

Peope just saying random shit now

the turbo was better everywhere

the answer is as supplied by the video-the difference in the boost curves suppled by the two forms of forced induction is different and a turbo has no parasitic loss associated with driving the blower (# of turbos is not the answers)

PIN IT AND BE DONE

compound on both? Not necessary on most V8s

no EGT or bsfc numbers-I never ran 21 psi

What about hybrid drive, the engine turns a generator that powers a cell that powers an electric drive.

Procharger makes one.. "I" force or something.

Kind of hard to beat a turbo though, look at those boost curves, plus there's no parasitic loss.

@@RyanMcIntyre Parasitic loss on Turbos definitely exists (remember, the engine can't exhale as efficiently) it is just less than a mechanical one.

I have a number of direct comparisons between turbos and blower (on the Mod Ford I tested turbos, cent blower, roots blower & twin screw blower-all same boost AF and timing)

Ok, I’ll have a look

Thats basically what turbos are for, horsepower is just torque at certains rpm's, the higher rpm you make the torque the less torque you need ;) so big turbo on low boost for you.

@@2zztercel558 Let’s say I have a 500hp engine that makes 600tq. Can I keep it at 500hp and turn only the torque up to 800tq using only the boost controller?

@@sstevocamaro using only the boost controller no, but if you want more torque than horsepower youre gonna need a smaller turbo at higher boost. It will make more torque sooner and torque will fade before making more hp than what you want it to. The boost level does not change the powerband, only the turbo size and design changes it.

@@sstevocamaro but honestly, 800 torque with only 500hp, means that it either revs really low (like a diesel) or that it lacks a lot of flow. And those applications can be really stressfull on an engine. Flow is better than pressure for hp and reliability.

@@sstevocamaro and most of the time you need to think about it this way, torque = air velocity/pressure and horsepower= flow/rpm Making hp is less stressfull on an engine because its just about keeping torque until the end.... torque is about making as much pressure/velocity you can as soon as you can... but its all about preferences.

Hah! I feel for ya. I have two turbo cars. One is easy to drive off the corners with the power on, and one isn't. The one that is easy (3.5L V8) has 2 small, factory T25 turbos, and a rising rate throttle linkage. The boost control is electronic and has throttle position as one of its inputs. The hard car to drive (2.2L I4) has a single aftermarket hybrid T4 turbo, that is a bit laggier. The intake has individual butterflys for each runner, and has a direct non-rising rate linkage. The boost control has inputs for throttle position as well. -- I would say that having only enough turbo to get the job done is very important. A compressor map to select the turbo is a must. Get a wastegate controller that has throttle position programming available. This may be your lifesaver. Consider a rising rate throttle linkage. Certainly drive out of the corner with the turbo in mind, accounting for maybe a 1/2 to 1 second lag time. I have no advice for wet roads........since my cars are mid-engine and scare the shit out of me when they cut loose under power. Cheers 😜

I have an idea that might interest you, and you have knowledge that I could find useful when creating a prototype. If you’re willing I can put you on a designing committee when I start the business process I’d love feedback on how to develop it further. I’ll explain more if you let me know.

WESTECH HAS TESTED THEM

either will make a big difference in power

YES-BIG ISLAND-WE WERE IN OAHU THIS SUMMER

yes

SAME

a single or twin make the same power if sized properly

Love your videos, would the curve come in later with a larger single turbo?

It's mainly about where they go in the setup; mounted on the engine (SC) or exhaust-dependent (turbo)

Every centrifugal I have even tested has displayed this rising boost curve-very little boost down low-then max at max rpm

you don't it

@@richardholdener1727 I'm just wanting a little more power out of my 02 ram 1500 with the 360 just everyday driving

a centrifugal has a rising boost as shown

fia94-yes

@richardholdener1727 what's the most amount of boost ever ran on a stock bottom 6.0?

If its gonna be a street car youll need to drop the compression or just accept you cant run much boost on 93 and if you want to turn it up youll need some higher octane "race fuels"

I have 11:1 brand new build i bought in a deal. Wanted a twin turbo or procharger but engine was built to spray. Billy the kid is 13:1 twin turbo, why have people said I need to drop compression to do so? Richard says I have less margin for error, is it that bad? Billy is pushing 30-35 psi at it and I know my motor is on par with his if not better. Forged Ls 408

I think most people assume it’s gonna be a daily driver type vehicle running on pump gas. Better fuel, less timing is gonna be the biggest deal from my research.

IT WOULD ONLY CHANGE A LITTLE IF YOU RAN A SMALLER PULLEY-THE GATE WOULD NOT ADD RESPONSE

@@richardholdener1727 i apologize that made no sense in radial racing and or no prep from what iv been around if your trying to leave east but make a shit load out the back door we put a super small pulley on the blower make the most power possible and then open the waste gate and use it as a “boost controller” in a sense letting it leak psi on the hit than on a timer ramp it in shutting the gate and creating and or forcing more pressure into the motor though as you’ve shown here the blower is going to make power with rpm but in a vehicle with a converter it’s going to stay within a certain range of rpm

@@richardholdener1727 I really appreciate you doing the tests you do I am building a 408 Ls stock block good rotating assembly with ls3 based heads an going to go blow through and between a 4500 body and a 4150 body on a 4500 base any recommendations? It’s going in a foxbody street mainly strip on e85 with full exhaust 2”primary headers from American racing an more than likely a f1r or x

blower dyno-but the test would be at a specific combination of blower speed, flow and boost level-it is not just one big absolute (and likely not universally accurate)

I noticed within the pro charger catalogs that the C2 pro charger marketed to imports has less minimum horsepower to operate than the P1 and the D1....🤔... And has a faster maximum RPM but a lower max CFM and max hp likely due to the smaller impeller, volute and possibly gearing... I'm curious as to whether it has better throttle response?

it is smaller-that is why is has less loss-don't be concerned about loss and just pick a blower for the desired output

@@richardholdener1727 600 horsepower is the desired output for this twin rotor...C2 it is... It'll almost be a max effort...

Not so...

ccg🪴🍄🍄

Not quite.. scramble boost is a 2nd boost level setting, usually triggered by a button press.. yes it effects when the wastegates open/how much.. the bov always stays closed under boost regardless..

@@yolofullsend. Ok hey thanks for the info. I’m not promoting a channel but SRC racing talks on that scrambler, ya that button. Hold on!!! it could get crazy if pushed 😁😁.

Thats their biggest advantage, more effecient and dont take HP to run

how you program them would make more of a difference