I was never disturbed by the multiple accounts of the First Vision. It was clear to me as soon as I heard about the issue that Joseph adapted the telling to accord with his audience. I have had a number of spiritual or non-spiritual events in my life that are precious to me. I don't tell them in their completeness each time I tell about them, but according to whom I am speaking. My courtship with my wife, for instance. The full tale is quite unusual due to many factors, but to a casual person I will simply say that we met online and fell in love via email. I will sometimes add that we met on a dating website. Sometimes I will describe it as an LDS-oriented dating website. Occasionally I will add that I proposed to her four hours after we physically met the first time. And that we were married five days after that. There is more, but I may not tell it all to a given person. If all the people got together to compare notes on our courtship they might react similar to how opponents of the Church like to react to versions of the First Vision.
EXPLAIN AWAY!!!! Lets get serious about this??? The First Vision STORY is simple. WHY he went to pray. His contact with EVIL (later versions). God the Father and Christ appearing (later versions). What Jesus' message was. FOUR ELEMENTS. SIMPLE TO REMEMBER. BUT...The 1832 FIRST VERSION Joseph has a different reason for going to pray...NEVER mentions Evil contact... Only mentions Christ appearing... Has a different message than the 1838 canonized Version. NO HUMAN THAT HAD A FACE TO FACE WITH GOD AND JESUS WOULD FORGET A DETAIL OF IT. In particular because God would not allow HIS PROPHET to later mislead anyone on what actually happened. The 1832 Version IS a stake in the heart of The Church...which is completely based on Joseph Smith's STORIES.
WHY would Joseph Smith "adapt" the telling, to different audiences and NEED or WANT to vary the accounts??? Why would he tell one group he saw Jesus and then tell another group that it was God the Father and Jesus? Why would he switch the reasons for going to pray? Or what The Message to him was? Why leave Evil out of ANY retelling of "The Story."?????
I've adapted my own stories and Church lessons I teach as well. Sometimes, you just won't tell everything you know, because in the whole context of the class or the "social situation" is NOT necessary, but counter productive to the development of the class or situation.
@@CarlosWashingtonMercado LOL. This is not a chat or lesson in some class, this is a claimed visitation by the Creator of This Universe and his Son, the Savior of ALL Mankind….including a confrontation with Evil. That STORY has only ONE WAY OT HAPPENED and ALL THE PARTS are HYPER IMPORTANT…or it was just all made up
Such a great interview, Don Bradley has become one of the most interesting person in LDS apologetics. I love his stuff and his fully researched come back story as well. Highly recommend finding every interview he gives, it will blow your mind - it certainly had mine. Good stuff!!
1 Corinthians 11: “11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” Male and female make a complimentary whole that fills a united divine role.
This is a great edit. I've watched the full episode, and in case you're watching this and it seems frenetic, watch the long version for proper pacing. It's amazing!
What is amazing is how anyone could be so absolutely ignorant and Biblically illiterate enough to become snared into this 100% fake manmade abomination. Repent!
This is one thing I’ve come to love about the Talking Scriptures podcast: they point out how temple language and temple symbolism is found everywhere in the scriptures. I’ve just been listening to their Old and New Testament episodes so far, but I know they’ve mentioned that the whole of 1st and 2nd Nephi is first temple language. Worth the listen
You want to know a real shocker. Compare the temple ordinances administered in LDS temples to Jewish temple ceremonies. There are literally no similarities.
@matthewbrown3722 - I’m not surprised that the are similarities. The Jewish ceremony is based upon the Law of Moses and 10 commandments, while the LDS temple ordinances are based on wLord Jesus Christ and how we build line upon line within our faith, ourselves and our actions.
@@ToddHutcheson-f1c Interesting. I guess the real question is, while in his mortal ministry, which was Jesus Christ observing? The LDS ordinances or the Jewish ceremonies?
@@matthewbrown3722 Yes, but through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, that when everything became different because only then, he fulfilled the law. Because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, we do not live the law of Moses. Before his atonement, yes.
@@Sissi1830 Okay, a little confused at to what exactly you're saying 'yes' to. So this is a very pivotal point in Christianity right. When Christ fulfills the law. And interestingly enough, we have recorded in the New testament his apostles and disciples still attending the temple. So, now that Christ has resurrected and the ends of the law have been met. Which ceremonies were his disciples observing? Were they introducing new ceremonies to the Jewish community that resemble the modern LDS temple ceremonies? Or were they still observing the Jewish ceremonies?
Think about why Joseph reach for the plates. He was told not to because it was not yet the correct time, but after all he knew from the first vision Joseph’s exuberance got the best of him. It wasn’t a temptation of greed but of the greatest spiritual awakening of its day.
Uh, there never were plates my friend. All fake and made up by Joseph. the only one that so called saw the plates was Joe, all the other witnesses saw them with their “Spiritual Eyes “ we were raised on un-true stories including All these new versions of the first vision. Come on sheep wake up. These 15 narcissistic clowns hold no keys and authority to anyone’s eternal salvation!
Actually, young Joseph thought about his parent’s precarious situation when he saw the plates. He got shocked, by Moroni, chastised him , and then “ Moroni” sets the time and place from then on, to meet and prepare the young prophet, with instructions from The Lord.
6:55 That story of the interpreters gives more insight to why Moroni asks the prophet Alma where the Nephite armies need to go to defend against the Lamanite armies in Alma chapter 43. Very likely Moroni new Alma had the interpreters and was a seer and could see where the Lamanites were.
When the three Nephites are changed live until Christ comes again in 3 Nephi it is said that Christ touches their eyes as well. I thought that was interesting!
@Emily-rz7fs - Yeah! I believe it actually says that when he touched the Nephite disciples, he "touched them one by one"--the exact same phrase used about how he touched the sixteen Jaredite stones!
How can you people be this absolutely lost and deceived? The fake manmade Godless cult of mormonism is the religion of the Godless worlds most willingly ignorant. Repent!
2:00 - The touching of the eyes is brilliantly reflective of many other stories, but it is most important to realize what is actually occurring. Every sense is the specialization of the sense of touch. When you see light your eyes are touching light, so when you see the light of Christ/God, They are indeed touching your eyes. This is why/how we can feel the Spirit as well.
Wouldn't it be great if Don could go on Mormon Stories or Mormon Discussions and tell us what he really believes about the core doctrines of the Church and defend his research?
I really appreciate Don he has helped me in overcoming some of my doubts by giving me more information.. i would love to hear him talk about carthiage jail all the history in that so much more to the story.
There is so much that we don’t understand. I also have questions about the church but I know that the answers are there. Sometimes, it takes me years before starting to understand certain principles and things that the church does. It is reassuring to know that the answers are there, we just need to be ready to welcome them and live by them. Sometimes the wait is not easy but the process of getting the answers (even if it takes years) is worth it.
Thanks Stephen for this wonderful interview with Don Bradley. Its clear to me that through the work of Don Bradley and others we are starting to move through the academic fog that would diminish our view of how great a prophet and man Joseph smith really was.
The temple is the key. Why do you think the church is building so many? Only recently when I watched "The Stick of Joseph" episode with David Butler did I start to look for the temple in the scriptures and was absolutely floored at how prominent it is and I never saw it. I agree, it's a huge stretch to think that Joseph or his conspirators pulled off such an elaborate scheme on purpose.
Entry in the diary of Charles L. Walker for Thursday, February 2, 1893 says that in a fast meeting February 2, 1893, in Southern Utah, Br. John Alger said that when he, John, as a small boy heard the Prophet Joseph relate his vision of seeing the Father and the Son. Walker’s diary then describes Alger’s account of what Joseph related. (An Analysis Of The Accounts Relating Joseph Smiths Early Visions by Cheesman, Paul R)
2:02 Book of Moses with Enoch anointing with clay by proxy I feel like may also be a subtle call back to Adam, as it was Adam at the Fall which divided man from God and veiled us, it is only appropriate that in scripture clay is used until after the resurrection and reversal of the Fall by Jesus Christ. I love Don!
To be more precise, we have Charles L Walker (born Nov. 17, 1832) remembering after a fast meeting on February 2, 1893 what John Alger (born 5 Nov, 1820) said (in the meeting) about remembering hearing as a small boy (between age 11 in 1831 and age 18 in 1838 when Joseph was living in Kirtland) what the Prophet Joseph said about his vision of seeing The Father and the Son (given in first-person).
Although much of this is interesting please note that ... [The Joseph Smith family] was a Masonic family which lived by and practiced the estimable and admirable tenets of Freemasonry. The father, Joseph Smith, Sr., was a documented member in upstate New York. He was raised to the degree of Master Mason on May 7, 1818 in Ontario Lodge No. 23 of Canandaigua, New York. Joseph Jr. was born 23 Dec 1805 and was twelve years old at the time. ... Please take this into consideration before your mind is blown when your are told the story about the compass and the square engraved on the top of the plates ... peace.
This is great to read this in the scriptures, but the question we should be asking ourselves: Why isn't this happening today? Apostles? Prophets? Seers? True church? These things that point to the endowment. Since the endowment points to even greater things, then it makes sense that these shadows of the endowment actually point to something greater: the actual process of coming to Christ which should be happening in our own lives. Joseph Smith did nothing that even the least of saints could be able to do, had they faith.
No where does it say Abraham's eyes were touched so he could see in the Holy Bible. Gen. 12:1 WORD YHWH was seen in vision, verse 4 says WORD YHWH seen in person. WORD YHWH is NOT satan's older brother, HE is the I AM that IM.
I respect your beliefs. But why couldn't the Book of Mormon come about the same way the Bible did? I've also researched some of the books that would have been found at Dartmouth college where Joseph and hyrim had access. Emanuel swedenborg, Notre Dame's and others who had similar experiences as Joseph Smith. I find all this interest but not just a coincidence.... Paganism also comes to mind.
From a critics standpoint, wouldn't it be easy to say that Joseph Smith SENIOR's involvement in freemasonry is what led to the temple parallels described in this video?
@@concernedcommenter8258 Is that somethin akin a Magic Spectacles? My Grandma was Cherokee, how come none of the Native Cultures tell the Mormons stories? Were they not White and Delightsome enough to know what was going on in their own back yard?
@@concernedcommenter8258 Is that akin to Magic Spectacles? Why don't the Native Cultures tell Mormon stories? Wouldn't you thin they would know what was going on in their backyard. You'd think the Cherokee would've know about some Jaredites living in their territory.
@@thefix2573 I know you weren't asking me, but if I may I would like to respond to your questions as well as I can in my own words. If you're referring Lidar to being "Magic Spectacles", I suppose they act as such, but in a scientific fashion. The technology is essentially lasers being used like radar to map out large sections of Central/Southern American forests & jungles where Mayan, Olmec, Aztec, Inca, and any other ruins are potentially buried under vegetation. By means of editing the vegetation from the images, new ruin sites have been discovered at an incredible rate. Nat Geo has done a few episodes on it concerning Mayan ruins which go into greater detail on the tech. (Just figured out they're free on RU-vid now btw, so give it a watch! It's pretty cool stuff!) Also, concerning the lost stories not known by current Native Americans, it is sadly likely that such stories (along with many others) are lost to history as many Native American peoples & cultures were destroyed during American colonization, along with many historic events before the arrival of Europeans. Not only this, but there has likely been cultural mixings with peoples who migrated or were already present in ancient America. (as a matter of fact, this is referred to in the Book of Mormon when the Nephites come in contact with the people of Zarahemla, as well as other implications of there being more people present in the Americas upon Lehi's arrival) I do hope that all traditional stories are preserved orally and by writing, as cultural preservation is a very important thing.
Supposedly, the masons are an ancient tradition going back to the people who knew stonework and built King Solomon's temple. They were holders of the craft of masonry and knew the temple rites. The brotherhood survived. That's what I was told as a missionary.
My biggest fear: Athiests and Agnostics looking at me, the same way I’m cringing and looking at these two individuals talk about these extra biblical accounts.
I believe that people forget about the biblical warning: Galatians 1:8 "However, even if we, or a messenger (angel) out of heaven, bring a gospel to you beside what we announced to you, let him be accused" Everyone should do their due diligence to ensure Joseph Smith was not himself deceived by an angel, as your salvation is at stake. A foundation built on sand is sure to crumble. All would be wise to get to know the real biblical Yehoshua (Jesus) rather than the false Mormon Jesus. Spoken in love .
Seriuosly.... he was sleeping with Fanny. You don't think he was making up stories to justify his behaviors? We know he didn't talk at all about really seeing God the Father until years later. We also know in the Bible that these stories were made up years later in order to get the Christian theories out there. You can be an educated believer. I'm sad this is the spread of misinformation
Context - Private setting ? Vision ? Fanny Alger ? lol If even an ounce of truth; Sales job, pure manipulation, and a means to an end. Smacks of the manipulative Whitney letter, and the pattern.
For those who don't know, or don't want to know, that knowing laugh and smirk when he says "Fanny actually becomes part of the family" is a direct reference to the fact that Joseph was having sex with a teenage Fanny Alger. Like it or not, there it is.
I have a hard time believing that when the foremost scholar on Joseph's stickiest issue and who thought he was a hack comes around and says, "no actually, Joseph could not have done this without divine assistance." Paraphrasing. Bare minimum, the masonry critique of temple ceremonies is now publicly debunked. God said that He would use the weak things of the earth to tear down the proud and mighty. If He had chosen someone more capable, the accusations thrown at Joseph might have stuck. But He didn't and they don't. It's the only answer that works. You don't have to believe this and I wish you well. You may well keep raining on the parade, but just remember, we have umbrellas.
@@MattMorency ,...You are just a perfect example of how absolutely willingly ignorant Godless mankind is. You all (mormons) possess zero ability to discern truth form lies. And sadly, truth means nothing to you and is totally undiscernible to you (mormons). The only thing you (mormons) can understand, love, and want, is fakery, lies, deception, and unbiblical nonsense. You are all the accursed of God as you all clearly show to anyone with eyes that see. You are completely steeped in deception, Repent!
ANOTHER ADDITION TO JOSEPH'S ONGOING STORY....NARRATIVE....WHICH CHANGED...WAS EDITED....ADDED TO..... And it is sad that Don automatically ACCEPTS this ONLY MENTION of any "eye touching." SMH
@@GrassrootsLibertyBillFoster You’ve gotten more desperate…and unchristian. Notice how you target me personally?? Hell of a Hypocritical Mormon you continue to be.
@@jordan-xe2yb Yep. Don said there is only ONE Version of this Story. So, without any corroboration, Don accepts and links to some Biblical event. ADD that to the varied Accounts of the claimed “First Vision”
@@krismurphy7711he shared what was relevant as far as his theophany went..:.i.e., the very first ‘account’ was the very succinct and pertinent “well mother I’ve learned for myself that the Presbyterian faith isn’t true” (paraphrasing). Don has said in his writing and talks that there were different accounts given, appropriateness of audience, and I agree with Don that none of the accounts relates *everything that happened during the vision/visitation/ascension/revelation.
So there are seven accounts of the first vision? I know the first one to be the bloody Spainiard guarding the golden bible; so is this the Captain Kidd stories he read and was influenced by?
Interesting. When was the account of 'the bloody spaniard'? I'm just curious, not intending any debate. I am familiar with other accounts, just not the one you referenced.
“He said that by a dream he was informed that at such a place in a certain hill, in an iron box, were some gold plates with curious engravings, which he must get and translate, and write a book; that the plates were to be kept concealed from every human being for a certain time, some two or three years; that he went to the place and dug till he came to the stone that covered the box, when he was knocked down; that he again attempted to remove the stone, and was again knocked down; this attempt was made the third time, and the third time he was knocked down. Then he exclaimed, ‘Why can’t I git it?’ or words to that effect; and then he saw a man standing over the spot, which to him appeared like a Spaniard, having a long beard coming down over his breast to about here. (Smith putting his hand to the pit of his stomach) with his (the ghost’s) throat cut from ear to ear, and the blood streaming down, who told him that he could not get it alone; that another person whom he, Smith, would know at first sight, must come with him, and then he could get it.” (The Amboy Journal, June 11, 1879, p.1)
@@nerdnul One source, 51 years after the fact that disagrees with every other recollection of the event? Written by individuals extremely hostile to the Church? Guess that must be true so, time to join a new church. What do you believe, nerdnul? Can I come sit by you?
So then if God touched JS eyes wouldn't that be a better take-away for strengthening the religion so it explains HOW he saw God and Jesus? That would have been more believable growing up LDS, and would have been good to know. Too late now though. All of the Bible references to touching of the eyes needs to be prefaced with the fact that JS and his family were Christians and would have had an intimate knowledge of it's verses and stories. We also can't fully reference the Jaredites for historical purposes because outside of the LDS church there is no historical proof to date that they existed. These stones of JS's have been around since the inception of the church. I've never seen them except in a photo. If they were used as seer stones in the past they are merely rocks today. If they played such an important role why didn't they have more prevalence in church history? And why did the church keep this part of the translation activities out of their member's purview? I've been LDS my whole life and am now in my 50's. If JS had knowledge of the temple endowment years before it was because he had been exposed to it at an early age. It was likely and has been historically looked into, that JOSEPH SMITH's OLDER BROTHER AND FATHER WERE FREEMASONS. So, logically, JS would have known about this stuff from childhood (not so mind-blowing now). And, of course, JS senior will have accounts of the Gold Plates and their similarities to Freemasonry. They saw a way to bring Freemasonry to the common folk at a time when Freemasonry was being attacked by the United States (1828). Kind of like when the Bible was finally given to the masses. This family saw an opportunity and took it. What an interesting concept to be able to mix the powerful "secrets" of the Masons with Christianity/religion, which hadn't been done to date.
@kaylabarzen1488 ,...No, the truth/fact is, JS was a fraud and a con artist. He had nothing whatsoever to do with the God, the Jesus, the Gospel, nor the Christianity of the Bible. You are completely steeped in darkness, deception, manmade fraud, a 100% false, antigod, antibible, antichrist religion/cult that is nothing but an abomination. JS has led you all straight into the lake of fire with him. Repent!
29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead-have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[a]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
Seems like to me that this information was “found” to try and validate your beliefs. You keep throwing around the word scholars when you know you should be using the term Mormon scholars. There is not one secular scholar, archeologist, historian, or anyone with any reputation that says the Book of Mormon is a reliable, historical source. Period.
Why was Jesus never married? Why did Jesus never mention JS? Why did Jesus never mention that the "church" would need to be restored? Why did JS kill people when Jesus taught us to "LOVE our neighbors as ourself?" Why did Jesus never mention North America? VERY odd.
When you seek answers from the Book of Mormon instead of the Bible, God can't help you because you have turned your back on Him. Therefore this leaves the door open for Satan (II Corinthians 11:14-15) to step into your life with a false christ or prophet showing you signs and wonders to lead you away from the real Jesus of the Bible who is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity. God Himself warns us about this in: MATTHEW24:23-24 "Then if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Christ! or There! do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect..." Mormons teach and believe that their jesus is the brother of Satan, which contradicts what God says in His Bible that Jesus is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity. So Mormons, which Jesus do you believe in? A. Your jesus of the Book of Mormon, who is the brother of Satan. OR B. The Jesus of the Bible, who is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity.
I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God as well as the Bible. All you have recited is what people have told you. If you really understood the Bible you would see you would have no problem with Joseph Smith coming to restore what man destroyed over the centuries. Christs name is used in vain in your type of Christianity.
@Emily-rz7fs And you don't recite what the Mormon church tells you! But I tell you what if the Book of Mormon is true, then answer this question. Why isn't there any archeological evidence to support any stories that is in the Book of Mormon? To this day, the Mormon church hasn't provided any kind of archeological evidence to support anything in the Book of Mormon.
@@AlbertJLouie ..... you couldn't be more wrong..... learn about the Heartland model and the Hopewell and Adena peoples; no evidence in Latin America but overwhelming evidence in America's heartland and northern regions. You don't find evidence until you look in the right areas; Smithsonian Institute has also suppressed an abundance of artifacts and information on these people.
Oh nooo! My life purpose of demonstrating my perfect voice and fashion sense to the satisfaction of random strangers on the Internet is in shambles!😂 I'll just have to settle instead for a substantive, meaningful life of serving God and others by finding and sharing truth. Have a good day!😊
Nop, no one can see the Creator! His being and glory would even destroy the whole earth if He showed Himself to the trees, lakes, Montanans and etc, of this terrestrial state! Why do you think the creator would dump Himself down? He is all with no restriction! No one can see the creator and live, it is impossible for us, and that is why the creator has always shrouded Himself in a cloud or fire!
You said it yourself....because the Lord's glory would burn everything up, He veils Himself. He is GOD...which means He can do as He pleases...He can reveal Himself as He wills, and can enable His chosen servants to behold Him via transfiguration that they might withstand the experience. The Bible is full of these truths. And you said it yourself. ;)
