A few things on the Slingshot portion: 1. If you are a student of mine I would expect you to keep comments cordial. Disagreement is fine (and a good thing for the sport) but don’t get carried away. 2. Coach T knew this was coming (albeit later than expected). We have had private correspondence. 3. Coach T is going to continue to have a thriving personal clientele despite anything I say in any of our videos. 4. I’m happy to have an open discussion with Coach T over our disagreements.
Slingshot comment section won't see this video unfortunately. And honestly this is just giving him more of a spotlight to get more views. I respect the guy, but he is so wrong about a lot of stuff. No coach is perfect though. You have admitted this about yourself when you changed the way you teach backhand. Slingshot serves a purpose somehow, if not just adding to the conversation
I an online world that seems to have a lack or transparency and too high an amount of conflict, We appreciate this comment to clarify the situation! Class-act as always! I discovered Slingshot a while ago and a lot of it really helped my form, except the brace, I had the exact issue you mentioned with my brace knee, but I know some that it's that "secret move" for them. What a world if everyone could keep in mind that everyone is build differently.
Great vid! If you're working on this, definitely experiment with both approaches. I prefer the "horizontal" brace as I tend to get out over my front foot a bit which causes some SI/pelvis discomfort because I don't pivot as well if I'm more vertical. The horizontal brace ensures I stay behind the brace and force the pivot at my heel instead of my pelvis. Another thing I found with the horizontal brace is that I'm not as "spinny" at the hips which helps with accuracy and distance. With a more vertical brace, my hips tend to spin more (vs. drive forward) cause my lead shoulder to open up
I personally feel very validated watching this. The brace is a tough aspect to teach and many of these concepts that you detail are the same that I use. Sliding across the floor in socks was an comparison I realized the more I worked on my own brace. As well as the vertical vs horizontal bracing where I tend to suggest that horizontal bracing is more effective for hitting gaps and lines at low to medium power and that the vertical bracing is effective for adding power. As a coach I've trusted your content since I was getting more serious about disc golf and learning form myself 3-4 years ago. Keep up the good work!
I'm so glad you brought up the Slingshot Disc Golf approach. Coach T has a lot of good insight but when he started talking about back leg vs. front leg weight shift and how he teaches "back leg disc golf" in some of his recent videos, it seemed to contradict what others are teaching and has been bugging me for weeks now. Thanks and keep up the awessome work! Edit: I re-discovered this video where Brian Earhart is demonstrating this exact thing, baseball vs. disc golf brace comparison ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-xtf5JyJ6cf8.html
I think trebuchet disc golf is an in between of OT and coach T. His method incorporates the back leg, but keeps a good plant into the ground without compromising the knee.
I would say it's pretty nonsensical to use a max distance 360 spin throw to try and disprove Coach T when I don't believe there's a single 360 throw reference on his channel lol
It's about time Mikey you gave some love. Just kidding, right back at you. But we're all using you, you're right. Don't get too comfortable; You start putting on pounds, stop wearing makeup.... The bar close SMS "What are you doing?" Are going to be less frequent
I like the water bucket analogy! It validates what I've doing recently in shifting my thinking from pulling the disc past me to pushing it away from me. It gets me away from pushing off my trail foot to actually bracing on my lead foot so that I can engage/tighten my core and extend at the elbow.
Recently got into disc golf and i thought the power came from the back leg pushing forward. Seeing the David Wiggins clip of his back leg drag straight behind his body was eye opening to show how it basically floats during the actual throw. Great work guys!
Seems like the water bucket thing will make rotating my weighted foot a LOT easier for standstills. Looking forward to trying it out and not just flailing my arms around indoors like a crazy person
To help dial it in, a trick I used to use is to kick the back leg off the ground. It's something I picked up from Dan Beto's right pec vid many years ago (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-nED7gcXobEo.html&pp=ygUOYmV0byByaWdodCBwZWM%3D). It's probably not something you want to keep in your actual throw (at least with that level of explicit intent), but it helps with dialing stance, weight shift etc. Probably do this with some towel drills to get the feel down before actually throwing. For clarity, you're not trying to push off the back leg so much as you're trying to shift your momentum to take the pressure off the back as you kick
Sometimes a player's drive finish will lift them upward so much they actually hop into the air. The first time I noticed that was Mason Ford's hole 18 drive at 2021 Music City Open Finals.
I agree with the pressing up technique.. any golfer that knows how to hit a golf ball would agree it’s all about that upward motion and back muscles upward pose to finish.. I don’t need 10 steps to throw 450 feet I can do it with 3 steps with proper pressing up and back finish
A great video. DG Spin Doctor and OT are the best coaches of proper throwing technique. I also know that Seabas22 and loopghost are apparently pretty legendary guys when it comes to proper throwing technique.
The timing of this video is crazy. Just within this last week, I realized my biggest problem with my form is that I can't break many habits I didn't even know I still had from marching band. I know that sounds weird, but the entire foundation of movement in marching band is to literally dance and do complex, fast movement with your lower body, carrying momentum with that, and doing all that without it effecting your upper body, as that would effect your ability to play the instrument. I'm really hoping this will help in starting to break those habits I've carried with me for way too long now.
Check out the playlist of drills yo. I have a problem where my upper and lower half cannot coordinate with eachother, the drills helped me through that, theyre so good
the bucket example, is why everyone that throws a baseball right handed, should have started disc golf left handed, because 100% of your ingrained bracing is perfect. Your lower body has had decades of training and you are good to go, it's the upper body that you now have to train (right handed throwers throwing a baseball with their left for the first time understand this! haha awkward.
I can't wait for the drill video! I'm about to completely break my throw down and start over with this new series from to grip to finish. I've hit a major plateau and need to change my throw to improve.
I like the bucket image. Sometimes a visual image or cue unlocks form more than the specific explanations of body mechanics. Also, Josh, you are looking really great. I doubt that happened by accident. Nice job.
Your bucket analogy validates the wall ball exercise that I recently adopted, in which I throw a wall ball using the core rotation at a gym wall just like throwing bucket water. Thank you always for your quality video contents!
Great video! I love how you give options and it’s nice to finally see the bucket of water in action. Looking forward to another lesson next month. You guys rock! Keep up the good work.
Have tro take personal responsibility for your instruction. This is a slingshot critique. Remember Thai Bo? Billy Banks was an ex-champ kickboxer and Martial Arts actor. So, for a while it was hot. I remember watching his arobic workouts. Somebody has to show you how to properly pivot, chamber, kick and recover. Otherwise, people that aren't in their 20s are going to hurt their knees and backs. Slingshot reminds me of Thai bo. Sorry
Josh! I watched this before a mini today And shaved 8 strokes... 8 FREAKING STROKES off my score from just yesterday in a practice round. Simple stuff made such a big difference... It's that back leg.. thanks... DROP!!!!!
As an olderish (will be 50 in December) and very much a heavier player (6'3" 320 lbs) who has a knee cap that doesn't like to stay in it's lane (most laymen way to describe a problem I have had with that knee since high school) I only throw with a stand still. Is there any way to incorporate some of this bracing idea into my standstill throw? I have already had some other players tell me they don't know why they are running up when I am throwing just as far as them while standing still. Yes, this is in a recreational division so I do realize I am not really throwing far but still I am not the worst there is. I have hit 320 but can't do it consistently and of course that is something I would like to do but I realize it may not be super possible for me given my circumstances.
Would like to see you throw more in you're videos., but you actually fixed my plant foot problem, of it not rotating to straight, when no other video has, so thumbs up from me.
The thing that intrigues me about this comment is that we actually have seen Josh throw dozens of times on the channel, across numerous videos, out in a field, or on a course. "Never throw a disc" is patently false, and the people making these claims apparently don't watch these videos.
Great video. I’ve been playing for about 3 years and have maxed out around 350-375ft. I’ve realized it’s been all above my waist power. With the Drew and Garrett brace you’ve showed it should help to engage the hips. With this proper brace I should be able to put more distance on my throws! I’ll let you know👍🏻🥏
It might have helped a little.? I’m still around 350-400ft. I got a late start to disc golf unfortunately. I’m 48 and didn’t start to pick up the game until the pandemic in early 2020. I’m still working on it👍🏻🥏
You can still throw far with bad mechanics it just means a higher potential for injury and possibly hindering how much further he could throw with proper alignment.
Been getting back into disc golf lately. I striggled to implement coach T's back leg twisting thing when i was last practicing. I didnt really get it. I am more heavyset and not as flexible so the vertical brace is probably the best method for me at the moment. Will try to get the feel for it when i get out there again. Thanks for the video!
Anyone else finally notice the X-Step is the secret sauce to all power? The X-Step’s vertical and horizontal forces unleash the rotational speed you coiled up top. Then just out race it with your pull through.
Great stuff guys. Really appreciate you. I have a few experiences with brace. First is the first time I focused on bracing I threw farther than ever before and it felt effortless. As I got older (58 now) I went down hard a couple times off the front of the tee box (think like a sack of bricks). I kind of became “gun shy” afterwards and started “softing” my brace. That’s my theory anyway. Over the last 3 or 4 years I have been steadily losing distance. Wish I was close enough to do if person instruction. Maybe we could get together for a couple days next Spring if you come to Jonesboro again…. Thanks for all you do for DG
When coiling (RHBH) back you are loading the posterior oblique sling (POS) going from left hip to right lat. The purpose of loading it is to later use this potential by contracting this muscle chain when the throw starts. When contracting it, the left glute must contract, as it is part of this chain. When the glute contracts, the left hip must extend. For the hip to be able to extend there must be room for it, as you can not extend the leg into the ground. One way to do this is to extend the leg behind. Especially if throwing a hyzer, with the upper body bent forward, the leg will naturally go behind as the hip extends. This is in my opinion what happens in the Wiggins clip. The left leg squeezing into the right also happens when the posterior oblique sling is contracted. Another way to make room for the left hip to be able to extend, is to drop the knee downwards and lifting the foot off the ground. This will also internally rotate the left hip, and create the position that Slingshot is often talking about, which can be seen in many pros. But his error, in my opinion, is that there is no weight on the back leg. There is no rotation on the left foot from the ground up, the rotation comes from the hip. To the contrary, the left leg must have little to no weight. If the left leg has weight on it, when the left hip extends, there is no other option than to have the hips/pelvis, and therefore also the upper body, move upwards. Having the upper body move vertically upwards during the throw is not ideal. (It will proably work better if throwing from a "tall" position, with little flex in the hips, i.e. not a deep coil) because then the vertical movement will be limited. So the weight needs to be on the right foot, to enable the left hip to extend. In addition to holding the weight it needs to stop forward/lateral movement because you dont want to have forward/lateral movement when the upper body twists (go from coiling back to coiling forward so to speak). This is also why you can not really demonstrate what happens in a run-up throw with a standstill. In a standstill you dont have enough momentum into the brace to enable the left leg to be weightless long enough to fully contract the POS. If you extend your leg behind you from a standstill, it might result in falling over. This essay is my view of it, which I think does not contradict what is said in the video, although the explanation is different.
I appreciate the explanation. It was actually a good read (which is not always the case). These are the conversations I love to have behind closed doors with other coaches as they are too “in the weeds” for most people to worry about.
Great video! It's great to acknowledge the utility in different coaching styles like you do in this video. I personally think the Slingshot discgolf "backleg" interpretation is farthest from the actual truth. The back leg is weightless while you brace. I'd say the horizontal brace is the defacto truth. Thinking about it though I came to the conclusion that the "push of the back leg" is real, but adding a runup makes the power from it almost obsolete. STILL people swear by it, and even though it's the least grounded in reality, it's intuitive to many. Even though the back leg power contribution diminshes with a runup, the biomechanics are the same. Cuing the back leg initates the movement pattern we call the weight shift. And I think it's unfair to say his approach puts the knee in danger. In fact, emphasizing the balance on the back leg makes it nearly impossible to dump the weight on the front leg and end up with your weight straight above the brace. Like you agreed in the video, that is the position to avoid. Staying on the back leg longer, and initiating the movement pattern with the back leg is a great cue! Still, his business model leaves some things to be desired. His style is great for bandwagoning :). But more viewpoints are better in my opinion!
Your best video until now. I like that you quote where you get your informations and explain why you like an approach or not. I was missing some of that in the beginning when I saw a lot of elements of spin and throw but no reference was made. Throw out, to ten, not coming over the top where some keywords there.
Well I didn’t get anything directly from S&T so I wouldn’t have mentioned him. That was in a stage of my coaching where I wasn’t consuming other disc golf content.
I don’t know whether I use the horizontal brace or vertical brace. Is that a problem? Should I really lean into one or is it possible to do a hybrid? Edit: looking at my form it appears as if I do a more vertical brace
Very possible there is a hybrid. And if you are already bracing I wouldn’t even worry about it. Are you stopping your momentum with the front foot? Yes? Great! Don’t over analyze it too much
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Very cool. I hope that happens...Thanks for all you've done and all you continue to do...Your videos, and your interviews/discussions, show that you're genuine n sincere n dedicated to being a quality teacher n coach. Keep growing- many will benefit from your efforts.
So I guess my one question after watching this a few times: What is starting the hip rotation? I understand that your hips will turn back a little when you create some internal rotation on the lead foot when you step out. Is shifting your weight and moving forward what reverses that rotation? Should I not turn my back leg at all? Just bring it in to my other leg toward center mass? Or should I jus literally twist my hips a little. I guess my question boiled down is what is automatic and what is conscious in the hip rotation?
Before I answer your question, why are you asking? Do you feel like knowing the answer will help you throw further? Or do you just want to know because you are an intellectual form nerd that wants to learn how it all works even if learning it means you’ll never do it.
@@OverthrowDiscGolf It's a little bit of both really. I've been fixing my brace and follow-through for a few weeks now, and I'm a little in the weeds about it. I don't feel a strong hip rotation unless I actively turn them, and I've gotten some information from people that suggested the rotation should be automatic and caused by the shift. Mainly I'm trying to answer a question on whether I should focus more on the shift to achieve my goal, or incorporate a little active hip rotation along with the shift forward
I think it is time for spirts medicine scientists to get involved studying the sport. In golf there are several stufies which hook up electrical gadgets to muscle groups which show definitively what muscles are used by pros vs amateurs in various parts of the swing. This sort of study would go a long way to formalize what is the correct way to coach disc golf. Maybe the studies exist but I cant find them.
Um no 😂😂😂! Go look at Dr Kwon's 3D scans of the top disc golfers in the world. There is no such thing as back leg discgolf. The sooner you realize he's a snake oil salesman the better off you form will be.
@derekwilliams5242 Take a closer look at their throws. They all transfer their weight and use their hips. Then go watch the 3D footage that Coach Taylor posted of Garrett Gurthy. The back foot is important when it comes to throwing. It definitely a valuable part of the kentic chain. But its not the be all end all that some people sware by. Try this if you dont believe me. Go grab a stack of putters and throw 10 while standing only on your back foot. Then do the same experiment again, but this time stand only on your front foot. I recommend you do 20 throws starting from the beto drill. Then do 20 throws with some reach back. Come back, and we can discuss results if you'd like to afterward. 😀
The slingshot army is all up in arms over OT most recent vid. Hate to rain on your parade but Coach T is in the minority when it comes to proper form and mechanics. When it comes to throwing a disc. He swares hes teaching the Macbeth way of driving. But even Macbeth plays front foot discgolf.
@@CherryB0mb333 RU-vid has lots of video's on why squashing the bug isnt useful and saps energy from ones swing. It's all about how we weight shift and use our hips when we drive. Throwing far while looking effortless is the most athletic thing you can do. That's why all the greats in every sport look like they aren't trying most of the time.
😂😂😂 There is no back leg disc golf. Forcing your knee to turn inward and not utilizing your hips when throwing saps you of power. This is what Coach Eller says at hitting vault about squishing the bug To hit the ball with full speed and power, the energy built up by the legs working against the ground must be transferred to the player’s hips. When the hitter has been trained to “squish the bug,” they turn the rear ankle, which turns the back knee, which then turns the hips. This breaks the chain of energy. Spinning the back foot in place sparks a negative ripple effect throughout the swing, and causes both the body and barrel to be too rotational. Energy, therefore, works around the ball instead of through the ball, and a lot of batting power is unnecessarily lost. I love Coach T enthusiasm but he's just plain wrong on disc golf drive mechanics.
So happy someone intelligent explained why slingshot method is DANGEROUS! And it's just bad form. I know we shouldn't be negative, but slingshot has a huge following and many people being taught the wrong way. People worship this guy and that's very scary.
It would have been much more productive if everyone who knows something about Slingshot's method would try to explain it rather than just saying someone is wrong. It's fully understandable that Overthrow may not have familiarized themselves with Slingshot's method. But it would be much better for everyone if we share information instead of going into full defense mode when someone asks questions.
Next time if you’re going to say that you disagree with another teacher, please actually get their method correct. You have enough influence to persuade people to not follow slingshot, who makes a living off of teaching. Spreading misinformation about what is actually being taught because you didn’t take the time to look into the method is dishonest and damaging. It’s not hard to set up a time to call someone before publicly bashing them to make sure you have your facts correct.
@@biwan428So does wiggins, the exact person OT uses as a “good example”. They are not actually teaching much different methods. The similarities in these teaching methods are more similar than different.
@@biwan428Yea.. what you're looking at is the beginning of the follow through.. every single pro ends up with 100% of the weight over the front leg at the end of the throw just from run up momentum. In actuality, weight is split 50/50 during the actual throw. Driving the back knee inwards is just a symptom or mechanism for recruiting the hamstrings and glutes to drive your hip rotation and unwinding the coil. The front foot will brace, then pivot on its mid foot or heel on follow through.
@@ViJt-oq5nqWeight is 50/50 until the forward heel hits the ground for both brace methods unless you’re following Slingshot’s method. After that, weight is fully on the front leg and the back leg is weightless. Josh is struggling with the terminology here - it’s a dynamic weight shift. Anything with mass that shifts via some momentum is dynamic. The vertical brace amplifies this and the resultant weight is much larger than the horizontal brace. Fun fact, this is why cranes can’t operate in windy conditions, as the load becomes much heavier when swinging, resulting in loads heavier than the crane can safely operate.
For the people asking to explain Slingshot if you watch some of his videos he states that what he is teaching is the McBeth form. If you go see a slow mo drive from McBeth he hits all the same points as what Coach T is teaching. And Coach T has also stated that what he is teaching is a more athletic form and isn't going to be right for everyone. I would say that OT and Slingshot are both great and I really don't see the point of calling anyone out for how they are teaching. Form is fluid it’s not an absolute.
Mcbeth didn’t use his left arm at all in a recent tournament and still crushed as cited in one of OT’s more recent videos. Paul also isn’t on his back leg like coach T claims
@@CherryB0mb333I doubt there are many pros that can properly explain why they throw far. As Simone said, they've been doing this for so long it's second nature, they don't think about what their doing anymore.
I just want to say this because I feel that the disc golf community is harsher on slingshot than we should be. The guy is trying to help. He may not be right about the back leg, but he’s thinking outside the box and giving us something new to consider. We wouldn’t even be having this discussion if he didn’t put the idea out there that this could possibly be the correct way to throw. That’s good for the sport. You want people coming along challenging ideas and trying things differently.
Agreed. Which is why I, hopefully, didn’t put him on blast. I felt I should address it as it is a prevalent teaching considering I am constantly asked about it.
@@OverthrowDiscGolf at this point it’s pretty childish and classless of you to mention any competitor and then try to put your words in his mouth. He doesn’t do that to you. Let’s face it, the guy owns real estate in your head and deep down you know he’s right and you’re wrong.
Got to say I cringe at a lot of Slingshot's videos thinking "someone is going to get hurt training this way". Got some shoulder pain trying one of his tips
If Aaron Judge ever wants to throw a disc correctly he needs to run away from the slingshot method. Coach T is trying to reinvent the wheel. When the basics of discgolf form have been settled for awhile. Remember, Coach T was the one to start the whole squish the bug with the back leg argument. Like Josh said that's old baseball coaching methods that no one uses anymore when learning to swing a bat. Coach T was the one who said the hips dont do anything in a throw. When in reality your hips are what drives rotation and gives power to your throws.
@@lpsmay4990it’s not a squish the bug with there back leg, it never was. He doesn’t teach that. He teaches you how to use your back leg to push into the ground and up through your body into the throw
@derekwilliams5242 Slap the midget is actually a great que to teach how to throw anhyzers. As for back leg disc golf, that school of thought is in the minority. You have to remember all these topics have been discussed for years on how to throw a disc far. The consensus is that good form is all about being relaxed and loose. And making sure you have a good front plant leg that is braced before you throw the disc. If the disc isn't heavy and ripping out of you hand your doing it wrong.
@OverthrowDiscGolf i edited my comment. You might not have caught the edit. I jumped the gun on my comment. Haha Ive been referring to horizontal brace as "inertia brace" But you explaining it really good.
I like you RU-vidrs and your content. Keep them coming. I’m gonna say it, Slingshot Coach T confirmed what I was thinking and analyzing on the backhand. The back leg hip coil to bracing. He did a good job sharing that. I’m a certified VHS learner. Started with break dancing on VHS back in the day. 😂 And yes, I can still windmill. I do like sketches for humanity on his journey to 400. Good video editing and music as well. If your are learning from video only, you are guaranteed to hurt yourself.
He won’t. He’s not worried about what front leggers are doing he’s worried about another back legger poaching clients when they hit the end of the road with front leg instructors.
