Troll levels are levels that teach (or communicate) an idea* to the player and lets them execute it, but then punish them with death. Since this scheme is well by now, there is also the possiblity of a double bluff, where the player sees that he is tought something, then thinks he needs to do the opposite, but that was actually what the creator expected them to do and they get punished by death anyway. :P * A classic example being a thwomp running towards you. The player has the idea to run away or jump over it, when the actual solution would be to stand still, because a magical seesaw will appear out of nowhere and push the thwomp away. I think the biggest difference between a puzzle level and a troll level, is that in a puzzle level the solution should be in plain sight, albeit hard to understand. Whereas in a troll level the solution should be invisible and impossible to understand. In both cases, the solution should be easy to execute, though.
aknopf building on that, Troll levels make you learn through death. Which is often used in some older games. You find the solution through dying multiple times.
I like your premise but I would modify it with one word: good. "Good troll levels are just puzzle levels..." I would also add that good troll levels tend to base their mechanics on reversals, reversing the idea of what a level normally does, then more advanced troll levels come along and reverse the expectations of what previous troll levels did, etc... These things tend towards levels with a lot of death, but death is not required for a good troll level, I've seen troll levels with reset doors for example.
Yeah. I played a troll level once, and it ended up being fun, which I wasn't expecting. What I learned from that is learning from death and expectation subversion can be fun when used properly. I remember how giddy I was every time I completed a puzzle, and it really taught me something: It's okay to have a hard point in a stage that seems unfair, but it should be easy to get back to when you die and be easy to get past when you figure it out.
2:18 *OBJECTION!* This puzzle's _design_ is actually perfect. There is an obvious problem(door is too high), an obvious solution (the spring), and something confounding the obvious solution (the spring is too far away to use). If a player didn't already know that Mario can carry springs, this would be the perfect way to teach that mechanic to the player; games like _Baba Is You_ and _The Witness_ are full of these incredibly simple puzzles to establish basic mechanics in a way that will prime the player to look back on them in later puzzles. The problem is that by this point in the Super Mario series, most players are already going to be aware of this simple fact, so the puzzle appears tedious. It can, however, be used as part of a series of escalating 'carry the spring' puzzles. However, even then, this puzzle can still serve a purpose! If the next room involved a labyrinthine death trap with a seemingly inconsequential spring by the entrance, the player would be much more likely to assume that they need to carry that spring to the end of said death trap without further prompting. This innocuous little puzzle therefore makes it that much easier to iterate on a theme of 'carry the spring' in a series of puzzles because of that simple priming mechanic.
I love the mention of other puzzle games, and their design. Teaching a player what to do without explicitly telling them is key for game design, so you got that right. Good puzzle.
Or teaching a simple but unknown macanic can be taught used later in the level and can reward the player if they do it not to progress but to be curious
Two things I wish would be done by every puzzle maker: 1)do not require knowledge from outside the level (glitch or mechanic you didn't teach). 2) no soft locks (make wrong answers reset-able).
@@psuedonym9999 if the level teaches you what to do it complies with point 1 even using glitches. It only violates point 1 if it requires a glitch that you are not taught within the level.
"Remember something puzzles" are what I love so much about Zelda games. It's always so cool when you get the next item from a dungeon and see what it does, and then you're trying to remember all the places in the world you've seen where you can use the new item to get various treasure. Link to the Past is one of my favorites, and I still remember some of those moments, like getting the flippers and then trying to remember everywhere you might be able to get heart pieces now that you can swim.
I absolutely love this video. It is a systematic and rigorous approach to something many creators feel is unapproachable, and is a wonderful dive into not just how creators make puzzles (although that as well), but what a puzzle itself is.
*Have someone playtest your puzzles!* For you, it might look simple, because you *made* the puzzle, you know the solution. But for someone else, it could take them ages due to errors in the puzzle, or it's too confusing, or it's too complicated...
Hey Ceave! I'd like to start off with a huge thank you for this video in particular. It's helped me in a pretty unexpected way. I've actually never played Mario Maker... Or any Mario game for that matter. But I've always watched your content for you delivery and explanations. For the past week, I've been stuck on how I should start a puzzle game I'm working on. I just couldn't crack how I should frame my game elements so that they could be expanded upon easily. The way you lay it out here is exactly what I needed though - Viewing things not as unique puzzles every time, but as clearly defined nodes, that have a problem and a solution, locks and keys. I'll be sure to give a little bit of credit to you if I some how get far enough in this for that to matter :)
What I would also classify as a noteworthy puzzle would be the 'seemingly impossible puzzle'. You are given a very obvious and easy solution to a problem (An on-off-block needs to be triggered to disable a red wall blocking the path to a door) however trying to solve it that way causes another problem (Triggering the on-off-block activates a blue wall, trapping you near the on-off-block). Solving one problem causes the other, making it seemingly impossible to solve the puzzle. The solution generally is to trigger the main mechanism from a distance (Using a shell against the on-off-block near the red wall at the door).
As someone who recently started making puzzle stages, this video helped a lot in giving me ideas for future levels! I just want to find a way to implement some of those ideas in unique ways so that the puzzles feel fresh and not like something anyone's played hundreds of times before.
Hey Ceave just want to say that your level in SMM2 was absolutely amazing and that it must've been very hard to make it AND the vid. I can't imagine the work you put into these masterpieces!
I played a great puzzle level recently, where it introduced a central mechanic (icicles breaking bricks), and slowly added more and more mechanics, such as p-switches, on-off blocks, and munchers. It slowly became more complex to keep your attention while at the core staying at a consistent theme
Here's an interesting puzzle that I haven't figured out myself yet: The grocery store is 10 minutes away from our home. My dad went to buy some cigarettes 11 years ago. Now here's the question: Where are you, dad?
Ceave, the reason I love your videos is the thinking and explanation process, and I believe a lot of others do so too, but I've not seen anyone voice it. The way you think about things and analyze them - breaking up the way puzzle levels are created, the types, how to chain things, etc. - is super good to help others learn. I love and do so myself, but not with games; here I see all of this applied within a game, as a way to make it more fun and enjoyable, and I think that is great. You also structure the videos in a really nice way, so they are logical, there is a progression, so it really teaches you something (if you let it), which not many people know how to do. Plenty creators can make great levels but they would not be able to explain it just as well, or it's just a lot of figuring out and randomness, but I like to see this thought process. So, thanks for the great content! I love thinking about things and figuring them out and explaining them, and I really appreciate the quality your videos have. (Yes, I just analyzed your video where you analyze stuff haha. That's what I do lol.)
~ LIST OF THE DIFFERENT PUZZLE TYPES ~ This vid is amazing, but I've noticed it's hard to remember these examples, so here they are in a list! :D Also, there are tips at the bottom, be sure to read em! Also this is pretty simplified, so be sure to watch Ceave's vid to get a good idea of what each of these are: I'm just making this so it's easier to remember them. ~ Basic Puzzle: Simple problem, simple solution ~ Complex Puzzle: Many simple problems with many simple solutions ~ Learn Something: Have the player learn something like a mechanic they likely won't know about, or a mechanic you add, such as the bowser statue switch example! (6:05) ~ Notice Something: Have the player notice something in the room, such as a vine in the corner! (7:20) Try adding "noise" (a lot of distracting decorations) to improve on this, or make it more difficult. ~ Escort Something: Have the player escort something, like a spike ball. This can also have other puzzles added to it, like with the bullet blaster "learn something" puzzle added in the example at 9:05! You can also try stringing multiple escorts together to unlock something! (eg: a boss key) ~ Remember Something: Have the player remember something from earlier! Eg: having to remember the location of an on/off switch after retrieving an item later! (10:11) ~ Sequence Something: Have the player do things in the right order to solve the puzzle! Eg: having the player drop down items in the right order! (10:36) ~ Spatial Awareness: Test the player's understanding of how different parts of the stage interact with each other. eg: The player sees a room where he can't do anything but leave, but then, later on, he gets the required item to do something in this room! (12:41) These are somewhat similar to "remember something" puzzles. ~ Not-a-Puzzle Puzzles: A problem where the player has to realize it, but where it barely requires any thinking (the puzzle does all the work) Eg: Triggering an on/off block to build a bridge! (13:51) ~ Problem Chaining: Just like with "complex" puzzles, you string multiple puzzles together to make one awesome puzzle! This time, instead of chaining simple puzzles, chain the ones above! eg: A puzzle which requires both spatial awareness and sequencing! (15:01) ~~~ Tips: MAKE PUZZLES EASY TO EXECUTE! The fun in a puzzle is in figuring it out, so if it's tedious or slow, try to do something like putting a checkpoint at the end or making it faster if you know what to do- otherwise, it gets really annoying to do the same difficult thing over and over when you already know how to do it. THESE AREN'T THE ONLY WAYS TO MAKE PUZZLES! These are only a couple ideas! WATCH THE VID AND WATCH CEAVE'S OTHER STUFF! I'm not just saying this bc I'm a fan of Ceave, he talks about many different aspects of Mario Maker that can help a lot in designing your puzzles! eg, mechanisms which can help you create your own thins for the player to learn, or different ways to make not-a-puzzle puzzles look cooler. ~~~ I hope this guide helped you, and helped you remember what was in the video! :D
There's only one thing that kept me from Thumbs-upping this video: You forgot to mention that a good practice to make puzzle creation much easier is to solve the puzzle in your mind, but backwards: While the player first finds the problem and then the solution, the puzzle designer first designs the solution and then the problem.
@@MinePlayersPE yeah, but then it looks weird. I wanted the asterisks touching the text. I heard that "\*" puts a an asterisk, but as you can see, it doesn't.
If you're still stumped about how to make a good puzzle I suggest you watch "what makes a good puzzle" by game makers tool kit. It goes over more general tips for how to make better puzzles. Another good thing to keep in mind when designing any level for mario maker is that knowing basic principles of game design helps a lot as making a good mario maker level essentially a micro version of making a game
3:53 The amount of arrows here makes this look like a clickbait RU-vid thumbnail or a conspiracy theory, and the thing is, Ceave is crazier than a conspirator
I would like to add that good puzzles in general are always built around a catch. You've a problem and formulate a possible solution, but when you try it out, there is something blocking your way to the solution, similar how you chain little puzzles together to create a harder one. The solution to this catch, though, isn't that obvious and requires some experimenting until found out. This way it becomes a feedback loop of formulating a solution, testing it out and see what blocks your path, experimenting, formulating new solution, etc.. These catches can be chained too as in the video. These catches gives the player an Eureka moment when he/she has finally solved it (or solves one of the catches), what makes the puzzle fun.
@@Dinoman972 He does say "the player" whenever he starts using "she". Later, he refers to Link rather than the player, and uses "he". It does make more sense to refer to a hypothetical player as "they" rather than "he" or "she".
@@cube2fox I thought that "one" was considered proper. Gender neutral, doesn't use singular "they." At least, that's what my dual enrollment English teacher wants.
When I saw that Ceave uploaded a video, I clicked immediately and I had a huge stupid smile on my face Liked the Video before it had even started with my big smile still on my face.
One thing I think is worth adding to your list is using road blocks / contradictions in the solution. And by that I mean you put what looks like a solution, but then when you try it, you realize there's something preventing that from working, so then you have to work backwards or completely rethink the solution. Its the same concept as chaining simple puzzles, but you make the focus on lateral thinking. For example, to get to the goal you need a spikey shellmet. To get it you have to hit a p-switch. But now when you hit the p-switch, that path using the spikey shellmet doesn't work and you have to figure out a new order or new way to use those items to get to the goal. That's a really basic description, but this concept is what I think makes puzzles interesting
Ceave we missed you I hope you will upload more cause your basiclly part of my daily life and i was running out of video's :P And yes i watched all video's on your channel :P Friendly greet from Japan
This is an amazing video with a pretty exhaustive list of the types of SMM2 puzzles that I have seen. There is one type of puzzle level that you didn't exactly mention (it is exceedingly rare in Mario Maker 2, but I guess you could consider it as part of the "Notice Something" category) is the type where the solution is short and obvious, but when executing the solution something unexpected happens that stops progress. Basically, you need a specific something in order to move forward, but if you do that something then you can't move forward. It's one of the most mind-bending things, and it usually requires noticing something which doesn't change the overall solution except for the one thing that halts progress. It is also usually mixed with "noise" (or as I have been calling it; obfuscation), so that's another reason I guess it could fit in the "Notice Something" category, but I felt it's worth mentioning.
@@cube2fox... You know that sexism is always sexism. No matter which way you look at it. (I know Ceive isn't sexist, but if he wanted to include girls he should have gone for a gender neutral pronoun.)
Can you make a "How to Design a Good Multiplayer Versus Level" video? Fighting in a platformer where your best attack is throwing your opponent into lava is way more fun than it sounds. Whether you make the tutorial or not, thank you for your amazing content!
Hope your reality puzzles are surprisingly simple to solve. Good luck to you, and whatever is happening, I hope you can still make great Mario maker levels and RU-vid content!
