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I am 66, and I have been training for 40+ years. I do about 5-7 hours of biking and 5 hours of yoga. My Vo2 max is around 50. I ride with the Reston bike club, our local GII club, and the A/B drop guys. We move at 18-24 MPH along the flat, and the distances are 30 to 50 miles. There are usually multiple pacelines, and in a paceline, you hit Z5 for 2 to 4 minutes dozens of times, not counting hills. More than half of these guys are racers or former racers. Most weeks, I will only do 1 ride like this a week because I get overtrained. I will go out for 90 minutes on the off days and move at 14 to 15 mph. It makes riding more fun. All this said, I frequently see men and women on their bikes with their bellies almost almost reaching the top tube. Anyone can push a bike at around 14mph on the flat; it only takes about 60-80 watts. For a while, I had to go to an indoor cycling studio due to surgery on my arm. They would blast dance/hip-hop music, and during the sprints, my meter would show 300 watts, and I would see the person's meter next to me registering 40 watts. If I had to give any advice to someone wanting to improve their VO2 max, I suggest getting into a group setting that will challenge you. Hot yoga or Pilates can be very intense, and most studios have a progression of classes that will get you there. Join your local bike club and ride with the Cs for a while, then go on a B ride. Intensity is critical. I apologize, but you must suffer; embrace your inner David Goggins.
I'm an asthmatic that went from not being able to run a mile at any pace to being able to do a sub 12 min/2 mile within 7 months. My Vo2 max is in the mid-upper 50s now, it's definitely possible to drastically improve if you work hard and work consistently. I never did any zone 2 training though, I try to max out or come close to maxing out with every run (zone 4-5). Now that I want to do a 5k in 18 minutes I think I'll do lower intensity training in order to build endurance.
TY I am a 67 yr old female w chronic asthma. I work out regularly but mostly weights and walking. I can’t even jog at a light pace for 5 min without gasping for air. What did you do to be able to run ??
1) Spend majority of your training in zone 2 and increase the duration gradually over time 2) Do high intensity intervals once a week --- intervals should be 3-8 minutes and rest time should equal the duration of the interval
If you’re Vo2 max is fair or poor meaning you’re really out of shape. I’ve found that it’s beneficial to focus a lot more on zone 5 training especially intervals with maybe one longer slow run per week. The problem with telling a person in poor shape to stay in zone 2 is that their pace will be so slow they’re not even running.. you need to run in order to adapt to running. Walking won’t quite do it. So if you have to approach threshold training in order to run a 13 min mile pace so be it that will have to be your “slow pace” until you can improve enough to run faster.
I don't think that's true. Even when very deconditioned, doing whatever your zone 2 is will help you improve. You can't even do a high-intensity interval successfully at that point; building up to the point where you can realistically start doing that is the goal.
If you do zone 5 immediately after finishing your zone 2 workout does it still count as one zone 2 workout and one zone 5 workout? Or do they need to be more acutely separated?
My understanding is that you absolutely can do Z5 immediately after Z2 but not the other way around. But I am a beginner to running. I'm building up to this by doing 2 separate workouts in the same day. At 60 I don't presently have the energy to do the Z5 straight after a Z2 slog. I've pulled a calf muscle twice since starting 4 months ago from being a couch potato. I'm finding that recently added treadmill incline walks are good for my Z2 and this has lowered my resting HR whereas just doing Z3-5 was getting me fitter but didn't lower it.
I love this cause you could create a simple training plan with just Zone 2, 4x4s and some strength training. Wondering it would allow me to maintain or increase current V02 max on just 10 hours/week? Current VO2 Max is 54 (calculated by Garmin), 60 years old, and probably do way too much Zone 3 and Zone 4 in 10 hours of workouts.... I know I should just try it for a month, but if anyone has insight, please comment
FYI the Cooper test is probably the best known approximation of VO2 max without a lab, there's a study that suggested a somewhat improved formula for it. But in terms of whether you can improve it or not ... I mean that just depends, nobody can tell you that. Obviously it would be better than not training for it, and the more you can safely do, they better off you'll be.
I am so confused over and over again about the zones. I've heard Zone 2 as a percentage of max heart rate. I've heard Zone 2 as a percentage of HRR added back to your resting heart rate. So now they are saying Zone 5 for VO2. Is that using MHR or HRR? Because 90% of my MHR is 173, but 90% of my HRR added back to my resting is 180. I have a fitness watch, and with 180 I have to custom set my Zone 5 to 93% to 100% of my MHR.
I think these were answered in the video? For the interval training, it's basically as hard as you can sustain for the length of the interval, not whatever your watch is estimating.
He wrote this in his book - 3 times a week weight training, 1 time vo2 max and rest 2-3 are zone 2 Monday: zone 2, Tuesday: weight training Wednesday: zone 2 Thursday: weight training Friday: vo2 max Saturday: weight Sunday: zone 2 I think he did rucking Something like the above … the “productivity game” also did a summary on the book
Easy, don’t do cardio before weight training. Cardio will fatigue you just enough, that you can’t go heard enough, to get full benefit of your weight training. Do cardio after. Or if you have the time, another day.
Disagree. Zone 2 for me is a brisk walk or bike ride. I could do that for hours and it's not going to help my V02 max like a 13 min set of intensive sprint intervals on the track once or twice a week. Zone 2 is not only a waste of time, it's an inefficient way to achieve V02 max. Certainly doesn't help my performance as an athlete. Zone 2 "training" is basically leisurely activities, like an off day. On an off day, I'd do a 2.5 mile bike climb up 900' elevation, pushing my HR to max (180-183) and 9-11 min total time over 170. Watch how elite 800/1500m runners train. You only need 2X intensive tempo sprint intervals a week or once a week and on the other day of long foundation sprints of 400-800m, not runs... sprints at at least 20 sec/100m pace. Intensive tempo involves short rest, for me at age 63 I was doing 4x300m sprints avg 49 sec with 3 min rest, was doing the same at 48 sec w/ 2:30 rest at age 61. 9 yrs ago at age 55, I was doing 4x400m at 70sec w/ 2 min rest. Pushes HR to max every time. (For reference, I ran 2:18.74 - 800m, and 56.23 - 400m at age 61. My 400m time that year 2021 was world rank #1 over age 60).
this would all be news to the experts and professional coaches/athletes that absolutely do rely significantly on zone 2. The science underlying it is proven.
I think you overestimate how much professionals really know, a lot of our biological mechanisms are barely understood and absolutely not in an universal way @strategicsage7694
Started running again in April. VO2 max was 38. I have ran close to every single day and now in August, 4 months later my VO2 max is at 41. It's a great feeling to know you are improving
Like any short clip from long interview, this lacks the important info we all need to hear. If you're a beginner: 1) you're not able to do 90% heart rate training, certainly not for 4 minutes and you won't be able to recover to under 100 bpm in 4 minutes or less 2) you don't have zone 2 and need to build your aerobic capacity from absolute nothing 3) everything you do cardio-wise is giving you progress so start with that and enjoy it, because it won't last but will get you hooked and fall in love with training
100% true. Basically took a year off. Lactate threshold is on the floor. Was like 170-180 before now it's barely 150. Which has my zones all screwed up because even though my HR is the same (max) I simply can't train in the same zones right now. What I've done in the past is actually focused on short garbage zone efforts to build my lactate threshold. No idea if this is proper but it works for me. So 45 minutes hammer and hope for the best and in a few weeks I'm riding harder. I get a lot of longer duration stuff hiking so my cycling is more of my zone 3/4/5 (although I definitely hit those zones hiking up the steeps). Even hiking though I just am not hitting any sort of consistent heart rate right now. I was sustaining 140 avg for a hard effort over 5+ hours pre hiatus, and now 120 is basically a hard effort. A lot of this is really lactate threshold reduction and the inability to clear/utilize lactate.
I think this is important. Attia is very fit. His advice is likely sound for someone looking to go from the 75th percentile of VO2max to the 85th or something like that. If you are starting out your exercise journey, then yes, anything you can do will make you fitter, probably keep most of it in Z2. Also, if you're a beginner and you want to do some VO2max intervals, you can and should start with 2 min intervals (do 6 to 8) or 3 min intervals (do 4-6). And yes, feel free to rest more than 2 or 3 minutes if you have to.
#661: Dr. Peter Attia - The Science and Art of Longevity, Optimizing Protein, Alcohol Rules, Lessons from Glucose Monitoring with CGMs, Boosting Your VO2 Max, Preventing Alzheimer's Disease, Early Cancer Detection. Found the complete interview- 2 hrs 22 min on Spotify-The Tim Ferris Show
Everyone has a zone 2 unless they are literally immobile, it's just a question of how fast that is. He has discussed the beginner question, that just wasn't the topic here.
Wtf? “I spent my workout on a phone call” “three 30 min zone 2 sessions a week to build a base” “the MED”?? Attia is BS, he’s the one who months ago was saying you should train fasted. Now he’s only picking up on mainstream and what real coaches say. And worst of all: he’s CORNY
I think too many people think zone 2 is a walk in the park. I like Dr Inigo San Millán description of zone 2. You can talk but it don't want to and a long zone 2 hurts. You can't go off heart rate. In 56, going off the calculations for my age I thought my zone 2 was about 105-115 HR. I went and did a properly VO2 Max and lactate test. When the results came back a week later from the university. My True zone 2 is 138-152 HR because of my fitness. I can tell you now, doing an 60-180 minutes in this zone is not easy but it is doable because that's where I'm at.
A lot of people think zone 2 is just plodding along but in reality it's more a tempo type intensity.a 4 to 5 out of 10 effort wise. This is where Arthur Lydiard had his runners spending most of their time. Its steady but not all that easy
Definitely. I remember being really surprised when I read Lydiard's description of his base training approach. If I recall correctly, he wanted them run toward the very top of the aerobic zone. Not easy at all.
I'm actually disappointed to learn the heart rate is not a good indicator, since it's so easy to do cardio when you adjust your effort to reach a desired heart rate. I found in the past, the perceived effort level has motivational disadvantage of being influenced by expectations, comparing the level of effort to some ideal level you once felt in a random workout, and probably worst of all, it's less sustainable for the long term. if you constantly have to make a mental judgment, instead of simply measuring heart rate.
Hi, some people suggest 180 take your age gives you an indicator for your zone 2 HR. Then tweak your target HR - eg I often push too hard so I use a target HR a few beats lower so I don't stray into zone 3. It works for me, but perhaps not for everyone.
You absolutely can use HR for zones but I found the Karvonen method to be better than basic percentages of max HR only. Karvonen ties in very well with my MAF Z2 and with my 'MyWorkouts' fitness app. At 60yo with an HRM of 163 and RHR of 56 my Z2 is 120-130, Z3 131-142, Z4 143-152, Z5 153-163 My MAF Z2 is 180-60+10 = 130. You can check your exertion levels at the various HR levels. You soon get to feel where things change by your breathing rate.
@@mattball420 you're right. I'm also knowledgeable enough in human behaviour to know that we tend to fool ourselves into over estimating how accurate we are in assessing ourselves. I'm happy you don't seem to suffer from this very human predicament, and that you can precisely assess whether or not the effort you put in is optimal and beneficial.
The garbage training zone (Z3, Z4) sounds like an overstatement. According to Dr. Rhonda Patrick, Zone 2 training is ineffective for some people (40%).
@@fishingphill Yes, both Attia and Rhonda agree that Z5 training (4*4 protocol) is necessary, but Rhonda disagrees that Z2 is necessary as 40% of people are nonresponsive (for increasing VO2 max).
So-called non-responders may not be doing enough volume. Recent research on resistance training indicates that non-responders (hard gainers) often blossom into responders simply by increasing their training volume. The same is actually more likely to be true for cardiovascular training. In addition, the zone 2 training that non-responders are doing may actually be closer to zone 1 training.
50yr old and training for 2k rowing erg test (for fun?)…doing lots of long slow zone 2 and found my HR rises slowly and steadily as high as 170 after 45m but I can still have a conversation and feel fine. No great stress- I could have continued. I figure that means I am not doing enough Vo2 max work to push my circulation harder so added 4x4min intervals today. Brutal but satisfying - hopefully I can find some extra headroom. Am I doing the right thing?
Recover however you want as long as you can do another 4m all-out at the end. Whether that ve walking, jogging, stopping completely. The key is "Recovery".
Are you overweight and out of shape (above 20% body fat for instance)? Are you breathing through your nose or your mouth when you're doing a slow jog? How poor is your running form? How flat is the surface you're running on? There are about a million reasons for this and at the end of the day, it just means you're not ready for that intensity. Learn how to walk before you run... Quite literally. Spend the next 3 months walking FAST for 30-60 minutes (to the point where your legs feel borderline uncomfortable). You'll probably gain enough strength to do a slow jog without having your bp go up that high + unless you're currently obese, you'll lose some extra lbs that's making running more challenging than it needs to be
@@jacobtimbers 17% body fat, 38 now but played football most of my days, took running up during COVID (running anywhere from 5k to 16k), done all the interval stuff, terrain is mixed so heart rate climbs even on flat surfaces, play golf once or twice a week so I'm certainly not inactive. I am on the heavy side but I think that's more to do with muscle mass as I also lift weights.
Using Morpheus is the best way IMO to make sure you’re in zone 2. It estimates your zones based on a daily HRV test. Peter uses it but doesn’t want to talk about it for some reason
It's not a traditional webcam at all. You can literally hook a professional dslr canon camera to the PC and use it as a webcam source during calls. This is how the slightly more serious twitch streamers get that studio quality webcam look too.
The whole reason I’m working on cardiovascular fitness is to be a better mountain biker. So I ride 2 to three times a week without regard to any training goals, just out there riding as hard as I can and having fun. On the days I’m not biking I throw in 30 minutes of zone 2 after lifting weights. Not sure how to factor in the bike rides. Definitely very high heart rates but there’s no control over the duration of peaks and valleys while on a trail.
Great video. Straight to the point and really good questions from the interviewer. Came here because I noticed a lack of improvement and wanted to see if I was doing anything wrong. I'll have to try that 4x4 instead of going all out for a 5k run once a week. Also I'm pretty sure my runs throughout the rest of the week may be ran too hard, I don't think I'm in that zone 2 range the whole time for those.
Hadnt watched this video before i started a few months ago really getting into running. I did use the 180-age for my target heart rate. Turns out I have basically been doing everything in your video naturally and whoa has it been working well. Some specifics: I do a lot of trail running and really enjoy being in nature. This varies terrain has improved my road running. I wear barefoot style shoes which has really strengthened my calves and ankles. I have looked for as 5k trail races I can. When I do a 5k I run it normal and then goal all out for the last mile. Because I”ve been doing longer runs I can show up early and warm up for a. couple miles. I also have been doing longer runs with lots of walking too. I bought a HR monitor to learn about my heart rate. What I learned though very quickly for me was if I can breath while running in and out of my nose without having to use my mouth, I haven’t crossed the threshold into the anaerobic zone. So now I just use this rather a watch or device for the most part. Even though I could barely run a few miles a few months ago, I found myself running a cumulative marathon over the course of a day last week.. so yeah, it is definitely working.
This still DOESN'T explain what key difference between Zone 3 and Zone 2 feels like. The RPE difference, if it supposedly "is really the best way to do it and far more accurate than heart rate". I can start a run / bike at a low end of my zone 2 based on my Garmin measured lactate threshold test and maximum heart rate, and after 1-2 hours my heart rate at the same level of exertion be creeping into zone 3 and I'll have to dial my effort back down. I try to maintain breathing that is very manageable (3-4 strides/pedals on breathing in, same breathing out). The RPE of 'feeling like you could go on forever' feels like my zone 2, and also the lower part of my zone 3. I still fail to see the distinction and how to be a better judge of this. I wish Peter and/or other experts could produce a comprehensive RPE descriptor across each of the zones (feeling, how long you can keep it up, etc) then that could truly help if the tech we use is supposedly inaccurate, and I sure as hell won't be pricking my fingers or ears during cardio sessions!
My cohort of quite high performing cyclists with lifetimes of very good fitness have an average age of about 70 years old. Our VO2 numbers place us in the excellent VO2 max category for our respective ages. However 6 of us out of 30 have recently experienced atrial flutter or arrythmia and so have had cardioversion or ablation procedures. it would be great to have some discussion on why we are developing these problems?
Have you guys started looking at what recent medicines you all may have taken and what risks they may pose to the heart? Statistically, it seems very improbable that a cluster of that size in that specific population would just sporadically arise. I would bet that there is a common factor.
Generally, the benefits of exercise exceed the risk of AFib. So, don’t stop cycling. However, it seems once we hit 5,000 hours of high intensity endurance exercise (like regularly racing a Century), the heart adapts, "rewires" itself, and the outcome is AFib. More details at: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5135518/
This is a relatively well known phenomenon. Long term endurance athletes have higher incidence of atrial arrhythmias, particularly AFib. This is most likely do to chronic stretching of the atrium and concomitant electrical conduction system during prolonged cardiovascular endurance work. This is not associated with an increased mortality rate relative to non trained peers to my knowledge. Fortunately, there are more and more ways to deal with and treat this relatively common condition.
@@beesplaining1882 Maybe I'm not fully understanding, but how does a vo2 max # indicate that I have a 'large enough base' or 'I'm aerobically fit' to then starting building the peak. In this video, if I recall, there was a test that was referenced with a specific measured result that suggested what I'm after.
Holy sh** only 50% improvement over a lifetime?? The methylene blue Bros are in soooooo much trouble. Impossible to recover from the vO2 rewiring, basically.
There is almost no realistic way to incorperate this into a gym routine with strength training that makes sense. What go 2-times a day and then 4 times in a week? Or completely dedicate to vo2 max training + zone 2.
I thought I did 30 mins of zone 2, felt like I was putting in decent effort, and when I checked my fitness app turns out for 21 mins I was in zone 1 so feel like I wasted my time.
Swim 2-3 times a week, 1000-1200 yards, 100-200 yard sets. One sprint set of 4 x 50 yards. Use swim fins, leg floats, and hand paddles to mix up your speed. Stay in the intense (zone 4-5) during 20-21 of the 30 minute swim time. This has been my standard swim workout since 2019. I'm 62.
This sounds intense. Just to reiterate what you wrote - at a maximum it is 3 Zone 5 workouts per week, each consisting of 5 to 12 Zone 5 intervals with another 4 sprint intervals.
But sprinting all out for 30-45 seconds, followed by 60-90 seconds rest then repeat, is amazing. No-one (not even Usain Bolt) can sprint all out for 3-4 minutes. 3-4 minute intervals are doable, but they don't have have that feeling of exhilaration that you've broken a barrier and maximized your physical abilities. I don't know the effect on VO2 max, but I can tell that all exercise - e.g. Zone 2 - for the rest of the week is much better. My HR while staying in Zone 2 is much higher, I assume because I've increased my actual max HR (not just 220 - age)
It is amazing, but it doesn't train the same thing. Attia has talked elsewhere about how you don't even *reach* your VO2 Max saturation for 1.5 to 2.5 minutes, which is why the recommended range is 3 to 8 minutes. If you're aiming for the feeling you described, more power to you. It's all about training for your goals.
@@strategicsage7694 I'm not aiming for a feeling. I'm aiming for the increasing my longevity, which Peter associates with longevity. As I said can certainly vouch for the dramatic effect of SIT on my Zone 2 training, which I assume is indicative of increased VO2 max. Perhaps I should do both. Alternate from week to week.
what I would love unpacked, specifically focused and persuing that analogy is what size the base needs to be to get to a certain number, and HOW is that measured?
I don't think that's really a thing; genetic differences between people among other factors would influence exactly what the relationship is. I would measure the base though simply by what your performance level is in whatever training you are doing when in Zone 2.
I like this video but can't imagine anyone over 50 that wasn't a highly trained athlete at some point being able to do an actual Norwegian 4x4 protocol without gassing after a minute. I guess I need to see someone actually doing this. If you go for a run for 4 minutes after the first minute or 2 you are done unless you are half assing it or not going very hard. Does anyone have a video of someone actually doing a Norwegian 4x4 in any activity, biking etc.? I would almost think doing 2 minutes and resting 2 minutes, for the total of 16 minutes training and 16 minutes rest would be better?
One reason for the 3-8 minute range for the intervals is that your body does not even *reach* VO2 max for 1.5-2.5 minutes. So if you 2 on and 2 off, you barely reach it at most. I don't have a video, but I do know they have done studies with 50-year-olds doing this once a week for two years, with impressive results in heart health. The idea is that if you aren't fit enough to do four minutes, focus on Zone 2 cardio until you are, and gradually build up to the 4-minute (or somewhat more) intervals.
@@strategicsage7694 I would like to see anyone doing it at that max, just seems a lot harder than what most experts say so I would love to see one of them doing it. Dr. Rhonda Patrick would be a great example of someone I would like to see doing it. I bet it looks nothing like the way she describes it in action.
Great to have a good VOX, but we’re still old so when I see men on dating apps posting that they’re 30 years younger, it doesn’t really matter you’re still old
In the video he mentioned that for zone 2 the best approach is 3hrs a week with 4x 45min or 3x 60min training sessions. What is the effectiveness of one 3hr training or two 90min sessions? Does it matter how you get to 3hrs a week?
I can jog in Zone 2, but it's highly unsatisfying; I prefer to run in Zone 3 for long distances and even in Zone 4 for shorter distances (5-6 km). I feel better, finish quicker, and have more time for the day. Eventually, when you train for years, shorter exercises are preferred and more enjoyable.
Agree on the z2, I really don't enjoy zone 2 running. Hiking in zone 2 is fine and entertaining. Seems most good triathlon athletes prefer Z2 on the bike, plus you recover faster than you do running in z2 for hours.
@@beesplaining1882 but that happens in HIIT as well, probably even more. i read the studies of martin gibala from mcmasters university and others. it is not difficult to understand. AMPK detects energy deficiency by detecting a low ratio of ATP/AMP and then triggering the production of the mitochondrial growthfactor PGC-1alpha. and the growth itself happens when AMPK is not active and mTOR and PCG-1alpha is active.
I always find it interesting how they paint Hitler as a fascist/on the right. when in reality, the party name was an acronym that stood for national socialist.
